Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Genghis Cohen 07-08-07, 02:44 PM	I started playing LG in March of 2005. I remember what it was like scrambling to get in every CY 594 mod that I could. I did manage to get every Core but one (it started at APL10,) and every Keoland and Sheldomar mod. I finished that year with a 7th level Druid, 6th level Seeker of the Misty Isle, 5th level tank and a 1st level Wizard. A few things are different today. There are a lot more mods starting at APL10, and there are more playing opportunities courtesy of the adapted mods. When I see TU intensive builds recommended for someone's first LG character, I wonder how many play opportunities will be lost because that person couldn't finish his or her first year at 7th or 8th level. CWI is a great feat, and every wizard should take it. Retraining provides valuable options for all, and some builds require it to be optimized. Combine liberal use of these with someone's first character, and finishing that first year at 6th level will be a struggle. Its not my view that these options should not be recommended, but I do believe that TU cost should be explained so that the player can make an informed choice. For example, if someone says that I want my first character to be a wizard or a sorcerer, sorcerer might be the better first LG character. With planning, reaching 8th level in the first year is quite possible. The second character can be the one who crafts like there's no tomorrow, and who uses retraining whenever the mood strikes. This will get the player at APL for most available mods faster. Just my two cp. Russ...
rutrow424 07-09-07, 10:37 AM	When I see TU intensive builds recommended for someone's first LG character, I wonder how many play opportunities will be lost because that person couldn't finish his or her first year at 7th or 8th level. CWI is a great feat, and every wizard should take it. Retraining provides valuable options for all, and some builds require it to be optimized. Combine liberal use of these with someone's first character, and finishing that first year at 6th level will be a struggle. For example, if someone says that I want my first character to be a wizard or a sorcerer, sorcerer might be the better first LG character. With planning, reaching 8th level in the first year is quite possible. The second character can be the one who crafts like there's no tomorrow, and who uses retraining whenever the mood strikes. This will get the player at APL for most available mods faster. I understand and agree with your basic premise (TU implications should be more clearly explained to new LG players), but disagree slightly with your conclusions. Not every player is concerned with meeting level milestones as you imply are important. A new player needs to have as much information at their disposal as they can handle, but saying they should maximize their TUs to get to X level in the first year should be far down the list of concerns. A fun, managable PC with an effective build and plan should occupy the top 4-6 spots in importance. All players eventually will try to "optimize" their TUs to balance play opportunities, meta-orgs, crafting, etc. Many players will not use all their TUs or play in every mod available - choosing a build trying to ensure they will is probably unwise. Bear in mind that a sorcerer is easier to play (once you've picked the spells known, your options are limited), but harder to build effectively for newcomers.
MatteBlack 07-09-07, 10:45 AM	I understand and agree with your basic premise (TU implications should be more clearly explained to new LG players), but disagree slightly with your conclusions. Not every player is concerned with meeting level milestones as you imply are important. A new player needs to have as much information at their disposal as they can handle, but saying they should maximize their TUs to get to X level in the first year should be far down the list of concerns. A fun, managable PC with an effective build and plan should occupy the top 4-6 spots in importance. All players eventually will try to "optimize" their TUs to balance play opportunities, meta-orgs, crafting, etc. Many players will not use all their TUs or play in every mod available - choosing a build trying to ensure they will is probably unwise. Bear in mind that a sorcerer is easier to play (once you've picked the spells known, your options are limited), but harder to build effectively for newcomers. I think part of the point is that using up those TUs means certain mods will be closed off due to minimum APLs. Attaining those levels for the sake of being high level is not so important but, not being high enough level to play some mods with minimum APLs is a worthy consideration. Once those mods get retired, the opportunity is missed.
rutrow424 07-09-07, 11:09 AM	I think part of the point is that using up those TUs means certain mods will be closed off due to minimum APLs. Attaining those levels for the sake of being high level is not so important but, not being high enough level to play some mods with minimum APLs is a worthy consideration. Once those mods get retired, the opportunity is missed. True, but I can't see that as a primary concern for a new player. One PC cannot play every mod available in a given year, let alone 2 years' worth, even without crafting or meta-orgs or whatever. If the play opportunities exist for the new player to use all his TUs on mods and the PC can be eligible for APL6+/APL10+ mods in 1 year/1.5 years, that doesn't really need to be planned out during PC creation. With 20 cores, 16 regionals/meta-regionals, specials/interactives, and adapteds, it is likely that most players will be unable to play some mods for any number of reasons; those opportunities missed are worth considering, but should come nowhere close to the top of list for a new LG player. They certainly should not be worth changing a PC concept over.
Mommy was an Orc 07-09-07, 12:04 PM	I don't think TU intensive builds are an issue for most newcomers. The big problem is not running out of TUs(so you don't get to play a handful of high APL mods the next year...), but rather they don't have a range of characters for different APLs. With all the adaptables that are out, it should be difficult to run out of mods to play. It is a lot easier to run a muster when everyone has a character at APL they can play. Right now, in a muster I'm running this week, there are 2 players who only have 1 character each for the table, one of which is a 4 and one of which is a 6. The table is 4 players. Make the 4 a 3 and the 6 a 7, and someone's going to be really unhappy or we lose the table.
Genghis Cohen 07-09-07, 12:46 PM	True, but I can't see that as a primary concern for a new player. One PC cannot play every mod available in a given year, let alone 2 years' worth, even without crafting or meta-orgs or whatever. If the play opportunities exist for the new player to use all his TUs on mods and the PC can be eligible for APL6+/APL10+ mods in 1 year/1.5 years, that doesn't really need to be planned out during PC creation. With 20 cores, 16 regionals/meta-regionals, specials/interactives, and adapteds, it is likely that most players will be unable to play some mods for any number of reasons; those opportunities missed are worth considering, but should come nowhere close to the top of list for a new LG player. They certainly should not be worth changing a PC concept over.My main concern is that the full TU cost should be explained to the player, and I don't see this happening. If the player only has PC concepts that will be TU intensive, then the player should use one of those. If, however, the player has 2 or more PC concepts, and one of these is not TU intensive, then that player should be made aware of the benefits of finishing his first year with a 7th or 8th level character.I don't think TU intensive builds are an issue for most newcomers.I think that each newcomer should be able to make that decision with as much relevant information as possible.The big problem is not running out of TUs(so you don't get to play a handful of high APL mods the next year...), but rather they don't have a range of characters for different APLs. With all the adaptables that are out, it should be difficult to run out of mods to play.Its more than a handful of missed mods. There are 11 CY 596 mods, between core, adapted, keoland and sheldomar, that start between APL 8 and 10. Three of these are two rounders, and two are adapted mods that consume 15 TUs combined. I agree about the problem of not having a range of characters to cover different APLs, and I believe that is best resolved by making sure that a first character can get to 7th (or higher) level in the first year. It is a lot easier to run a muster when everyone has a character at APL they can play. Right now, in a muster I'm running this week, there are 2 players who only have 1 character each for the table, one of which is a 4 and one of which is a 6. The table is 4 players. Make the 4 a 3 and the 6 a 7, and someone's going to be really unhappy or we lose the table.Or make the 6 a 7, add in a 6 and a 4, and everyone comes out ahead.
KShaver 07-09-07, 01:15 PM	I started playing LG in March of 2005. I remember what it was like scrambling to get in every CY 594 mod that I could. I did manage to get every Core but one (it started at APL10,) and every Keoland and Sheldomar mod. I finished that year with a 7th level Druid, 6th level Seeker of the Misty Isle, 5th level tank and a 1st level Wizard. Most new players I know don't scramble to get in every mod they can. Most new players I know just play a few mods off and on, and they end up with a lot of spare TUs. Adaptables are making a big change to this, but one is still going to be hard pressed to meet the requirements for more than a few in the same year with the same character. If a new player jumped in hard core (playing almost every week, and making a couple of conventions), then yes, a TU intensive build might be a bit much for them. I just don't think your average person jumps in this way.
MatteBlack 07-09-07, 01:32 PM	Most new players won't be that worried about catching that retiring APL 6+ mod int their first year but, I know alot of late first year and second year players that regret they didn't catch this mod or that. Ultimately, I'd rather have more and wider access to available mods and I think that that is the greater concern to many new LG players. I do hear alot more advising players suggesting creation feats to get ahead of the gold curve than I do advice to get in all the old mods you can. Perhaps creating items will be more useful because they are likely to have alot of extra TUs but we should probably giving the full picture not just one side. It does make me wonder though when amassing loot via paperwork comes before being able to play as many mods as possible.
Mommy was an Orc 07-09-07, 01:52 PM	There are 11 CY 596 mods, between core, adapted, keoland and sheldomar, that start between APL 8 and 10. Three of these are two rounders, and two are adapted mods that consume 15 TUs combined. I agree about the problem of not having a range of characters to cover different APLs, and I believe that is best resolved by making sure that a first character can get to 7th (or higher) level in the first year. So, in other words, without even traveling, there are almost thirty 596 mods to play. Unless you play LG every single week, never DM and never travel, you won't run out of mods to play as a newcomer. And even then, it won't happen until 598. Even as a newcomer, if there are mods you're not going to get to, you can eat them and DM people through them. A newcomer is a lot more likely to miss out on a table(or die) because they don't match up well with the APL. Or make the 6 a 7, add in a 6 and a 4, and everyone comes out ahead. As someone who has ran 30 or so musters in the past year, you simply can't make additional players magically appear. And quite honestly, no, not everyone is coming ahead even if that were true - the reason we'd be able to make the APL 6 table work is that I'm willing to play the 'wrong' character.
UMiskatonic 07-09-07, 02:07 PM	LG newcomers fall into two categories in my experience. a) those people new to the game as a whole (what's an AO) b) those people who understand the rules, and are new to the RPGA. (How do I muster?) The people in category B often understand item crafting quite well, and could also build a solid sorceror.
Genghis Cohen 07-09-07, 08:45 PM	Most new players I know don't scramble to get in every mod they can. Most new players I know just play a few mods off and on, and they end up with a lot of spare TUs. Adaptables are making a big change to this, but one is still going to be hard pressed to meet the requirements for more than a few in the same year with the same character. If a new player jumped in hard core (playing almost every week, and making a couple of conventions), then yes, a TU intensive build might be a bit much for them. I just don't think your average person jumps in this way.My observations in my area are different. In my opinion, it's important that the player be made aware of all of the relevant variables when determining the opportunity cost of his or her decisions.So, in other words, without even traveling, there are almost thirty 596 mods to play. Unless you play LG every single week, never DM and never travel, you won't run out of mods to play as a newcomer. And even then, it won't happen until 598. Even as a newcomer, if there are mods you're not going to get to, you can eat them and DM people through them.When you add in interactives and special missions, its even more of a TU cost. I can easily name more than a dozen players off the top of my head, in our area alone, who started playing in 2005 or later, and who had to start a second character in their first year of LG to soak up the TUs. Many of these players had three PCs at the end of their first year. If a player is going to start two characters in one year, its better to be able to cover a wider APL range.A newcomer is a lot more likely to miss out on a table(or die) because they don't match up well with the APL.Which is exactly why when that player is rushing to get in a soon to retire APL8+ mod at the end of the year, his highest level character should be 7th (or 8th) level and not 6th (or 5th.)As someone who has ran 30 or so musters in the past year, you simply can't make additional players magically appear. And quite honestly, no, not everyone is coming ahead even if that were true - the reason we'd be able to make the APL 6 table work is that I'm willing to play the 'wrong' character.I think that its great that you've taken the initiative to expand our areas playing opportunities. I really do. Lets not forget that your musters are usually for early afternoons on weekdays, so it will be more difficult to make those musters work. That's not the same thing as Thursday nights at Neutral Ground where a slow week has two tables go off, and a busy week sees 6. Every single week. The bottom line for what I'm trying to get across is that all costs should be made known to a newcomer. There will be many players who will say, "the crafting wizard is for me, and I'm not concerned with the TU cost." That's perfectly OK as long as everything was disclosed. What is wrong with full disclosure?
KShaver 07-09-07, 10:29 PM	My observations in my area are different. In my opinion, it's important that the player be made aware of all of the relevant variables when determining the opportunity cost of his or her decisions. Good in theory, but it doesn't always help. I always make sure new people have all the vital info and as much other assistance as they want. There is a breaking point where my own opinion* isn't going to make a bit of difference in how they want to play the game or thier character. As far as TUs go, I hear of many groups that play weekly. In my group that just doesn't happen. Most of us play something every week, but its a variety of different games and systems. LG doesn't take up more than 1 day every other week on average. We play and sometimes two on those days (and someone GMs, we mix that job up a little). If it weren't for adaptables (particularly RHoD), meta-orgs, non-adventuring activity, and CMI most people I play with would have trouble running even one character out of TUs. *My theories on how the game should be played, or how characters should be built. While my arguments on game mechanics and character creation may be based on experience and filled with logic, in the end they are nothing more than opinions.
Grantor 07-09-07, 10:54 PM	I am of the opinion that this is not that relevant. The change from a non-RPGA player to a LG player that plays ever available mod in their area is huge. That is a significant live style change. Switching from playing a home game or two a week to mustering for 52 TUs worth of LG is a big change in someone's life. I think it is rare that someone will go "all-in", going to weekly events in their area, finding a home game that is running adaptables, and attending multiple cons in their first year. It's also not that likely that they will start doing this at the beginning of the year; summertime is a more likely entry point for a new player. So in their first "year" it is extremely unlikely that they will be struggling to fit into the 52 TU straight-jacket. I had 22 TUs left over when 2006 ended, and that's after cramming in as much as I could at a retirement party. My anniversary is coming in September and I currently have a level 6 character and a level 2 newbie started because I will run out of TUs for the primary after going to GenCon for the first time. It's not the first year that gets ya, it's the second... and players know the costs by then without special instruction. Just my thoughts
LGMoses 07-09-07, 11:08 PM	I'm with Grantor. I've gotten most of my new players over the summer and still people show up irregularly. They're just in it for a game or two. Its not a huge investment like they're going to start a 40k army or something(:P ) And if they run out they can make a new character which is great to have when you want to play something different(options are always good.) I have always tried to advise my players to make characters they'll enjoy playing in the long run and of meta orgs in our region. Many of these meta-orgs(guess what, the militia one especially) cost mucho TU's to join. I run every week and people show up when they feel but I always have a table of four atleast. You're talking about some serious playing to use up all those TU's that quick.
_metz_ 07-10-07, 07:01 AM	True, but I can't see that as a primary concern for a new player. One PC cannot play every mod available in a given year, let alone 2 years' worth, even without crafting or meta-orgs or whatever. If the play opportunities exist for the new player to use all his TUs on mods and the PC can be eligible for APL6+/APL10+ mods in 1 year/1.5 years, that doesn't really need to be planned out during PC creation. With 20 cores, 16 regionals/meta-regionals, specials/interactives, and adapteds, it is likely that most players will be unable to play some mods for any number of reasons; those opportunities missed are worth considering, but should come nowhere close to the top of list for a new LG player. They certainly should not be worth changing a PC concept over. Pretty sure I did. It wasn't enough to get to the APL 10 starting mods. Characters ran out of TUs. I wanted to play them and couldn't. I am currently furiously leveling a character to 10 so I don't miss out on them in the future. (By that I mean when the character is level 9 I try to only play APL 10s for example) From now on it shouldn't really be an issue, but its difficult to get characters above level 7 in one year.
just_be_glad_now 07-10-07, 04:25 PM	I've never thought about it this way before. Now that someone has proposed it as a problem, these are my considerations. Not only do I disagree that it is an issue, I will conclude from them that I will actively encourage a TU intensive build for a first PC for a number of reasons: 1. They tend to _seem_ to be growing faster (as MIC enables gaining lots of new toys quicker, particularly once they hit 3rd level), and are certainly becoming rich quicker than those PCs around them. 2. The TU intensive build _does_ grow more powerful _per mod played_ faster than the other PCs. 3. Players get more mods to adapt to each APL as they experience them in turn, making them better players. 4. It is much easier for a new player to feel that he has "played out" his PC the amount expected if that requires only 20 mods in a year rather than 30+. Notice that all of these justifications are based on the goal of avoiding a common frustration: new players sit down at an APL 2 table with a bunch of veterans, and are both overshadowed by relative player and PC building skill and feel frustrated that they don't have a strong command of what is happening. They quickly conclude that the learning curve is too steep and stop rather than playing enough to begin to enjoy the game. The downside, of course, is that playing a caster is perhaps slightly more difficult than a non-caster. However, that is assuming a normal distribution of PCs, rather than the ones often seen as first attempts by new players. Personally, I'd go as far as to say that as long as you're not playing a dex-based melee or a warmage, you're probably ok. Those two very difficult builds seem a magnet to new players for some reason, sigh. Brayden Glad
bitznarf 07-10-07, 04:27 PM	Personally, I'd go as far as to say that as long as you're not playing a dex-based melee or a warmage, you're probably ok. Those two very difficult builds seem a magnet to new players for some reason, sigh. Brayden Glad Possibly because they are seen as flashy, but that might be a topic for another thread.
Donald_Cannith 07-10-07, 06:30 PM	ihave noticed that. A party with a dex based fighter got its butt kicked in alot of mods becus they were all new to LG. Also monks...
copper_wyrmling 07-12-07, 10:23 AM	Well... by the end of my first year, which was 2004, I had a L7 cleric, L4 sorcerer, and L2 fighter type, from memory. I'd played every Year 3 mod except a Year 3 Core that started at APL 10 (Through Nature To Eternity), iirc, and a decent selection of Year 4's. I'm not sure what the "typical" beginner does, but that was a fairly normal pattern in my area at that time (a bunch of us from the same university started playing together). Even now, with PCs at 15/12/10/5 and a bunch of L1s, I have only one PC with a crafting feat, and she didn't take it until L15. I prefer high APLs, I find them more enjoyable, and I tend to be much more attached to my high-level PCs than my low-level ones - getting my PCs into my preferred level range, and being able to play my favorite characters more frequently, is more important to me than having better gear than the rest of the table. Just my 2cp.
Prof. Pacali 07-13-07, 12:15 PM	I started playing at around the same time Genghis Cohen did, in the same general group of LG players, so I have some perspective on how fast a new player eats up TUs. I started in January 2005, but at first played sporadically. I had a few family commitments, so I didn't attend the weekly LG game for a few weeks, during which time Genghis Cohen's druid leveled faster than my sorceror. Around May or June of 2005, Blood on Bright Sands came out, and I created my second character, whom I played more extensively than my sorceror. However neither character ran out of TUs (though the rogue came close in 2005). What I do remember distinctly is the mad dash to finish Year Four mods before the end of the year. It got to the point that Genghis and I were coming to play the week of the transit strike in NYC. It was clearly explained to us early on that the real rewards in LG are gold, XP, and favors from mods, not the magic items handed out in home games, so the more play opportunities the better. Early in 2005 Genghis began to go to Cons, while I was unable to due to time conflicts. I went to my first con in January of 2006, but rarely had the time to go to them. As a result Genghis' druid leveled much faster than my sorceror or my rogue. If I remember correctly, in 2006 he was conserving TUs after a few months, while my TUs lasted a little longer. In 2006 I was introduced to losing TUs to unfortunate circumstances, as my rogue was lost in the Dreadwood for a month, and my sorceror was enslaved. I did not run out of TUs with either character though. Also in 2006 I DMed on a more consistent basis, as did Genghis. This is partially the result of our finishing so many mods that play oppurtunities became scarcer, and partially our taking on more responsibilities in the campaign. Genghis went on to found a Keoland metaorg, and continued going to lots of cons. My job and family requirements limited the number of cons I went to in 2006. Also my rogue died a few times, and my sorceror had the misfortune of playing up in a brutal Year five Keoland mod, killed by an Efreet in the surprise round. As a result by the end of 2006 neither character could play APL 8 mods effectively. This year my sorceror began playing RHoD, and will probably be 9th level if I get to finish part five. (Our group's DM had to bail due to job conflicts). I started a new character, who has reached third level, and my rogue is doing a little better (though the 20% XP and gold penalty hurts a lot. I multiclassed before the LGCS 7.0 came out.) Based on my experiences, I suggest new LG players focus on one character, and getting them to 6th level in the first year. Start in the begining of the year, not the end, as the mad dash to get mods becomes more frenzied that way. (Although I know one player who started in August 2006, who had run out of TUs by December, by playing at least twice a week and hitting a few cons.) Once you are at sixth level, begin a second character for the low level mods. New players should be warned that CMI and Retraining will cost them play oppurtunities, as will joining meta-orgs. New players might want to stay away from Battle Interactives for a bit, though Adaptables can be good for new players, especially ones transitioning from a home game mentality. Thanks to Adaptables it is easier to run out of TUs but not play oppurtunities. Essentially you need to get the most bang for your buck when spending a TU. I was warned early on that spending TUs on non-adventuring activity is not worth it in the long run, because the GP earned is much less than can be earned by playing a regional mod. (I'm sure there are those who disagree, but unless you have multiple characters able to play multiple APLs, which new players do not, spending a TU to get 45 GPs is not worth it, when you can spend a TU, play an APL 2 regional and possibly get ten times as much.)
TetsujinOni 07-13-07, 12:53 PM	I guess I'm not so typical. I started playing with a dwarf battlecleric in November 06 at MePACon; had few play opportunities until the beginning of year 7. Slot zeroed and ran a bunchaton of stuff at Genericon. My first character was out of TU for CY597 between joining a MO, TUs spent on Craft (armorsmithing) (nobody warned me about the TU for gold lack of goodness, and it's MUCH worse in 7.0.1/7.5), Interactives with extra-TU options, and to get a favor access that looked _perfect_, but is making for a bad build... He'll still fun as heck to play, though. I can't throw 6200 and a favor away on suicides, though.... Oh, and did I mention he is level 5, and has exactly 1 TU left to play Forest of Caverns when it premieres? My SECOND character (i've got a few others in the wings) is a NAW Wizard in Keoland. I started him this year, and he's level 4 at 10TU left. Scribing is costly, and he really wants to CWI a bunchaton of stuff. My THIRD character has 47 TU left... until the Bissel residency metaorg membership is approved. Whups, down to 39, and heading for a Bissel con. I'm going to miss out on all the year 6 ADPs, but I expect to hit most of the mid-to-high APL game in mid year 8, as I let the characters spread out more.
rutrow424 07-13-07, 02:52 PM	Based on my experiences, I suggest new LG players focus on one character, and getting them to 6th level in the first year. Start in the begining of the year, not the end, as the mad dash to get mods becomes more frenzied that way. (Although I know one player who started in August 2006, who had run out of TUs by December, by playing at least twice a week and hitting a few cons.) Once you are at sixth level, begin a second character for the low level mods. New players should be warned that CMI and Retraining will cost them play oppurtunities, as will joining meta-orgs. New players might want to stay away from Battle Interactives for a bit, though Adaptables can be good for new players, especially ones transitioning from a home game mentality. Thanks to Adaptables it is easier to run out of TUs but not play oppurtunities. Essentially you need to get the most bang for your buck when spending a TU. I think it is good advice for a new player to focus on one PC until the mid levels (assuming that PC survives and is as fun to play as anticipated); I would stop before suggesting how to "optimize" TUs as it relates to play experience and enjoyment until I know more about the specific circumstances of the player in question. Some will be like you and Genghis, and have weekly opportunities to play, be fully invested in playing every mod possible before they retire, and run 2+ PCs out of TUs before they run out of mods (or nearly so). Others may play less frequently and be less concerned about qualifying to play XYZ mod that starts at APL 10 before it retires. The player's location, previous DnD/RPGA experience, available time, and play preferences all are parts of how much "optimizing" TUs will matter to them. IMHO a new player should first worry about what will be fun for them to play, build/plan that PC, and then play some mods. If they like what they experience, then they can begin to worry about whether crafting, meta-orgs, or other things are worth losing TUs. I would encourage any new player to learn about their region, and whether a meta-org might fit in with their PC at some point - this hopefully feeds the role-playing aspect of enjoyment in LG by investing them more in the storylines of the mods they play. Nobody is saying that TUs should not be explained to a newcomer, but the cost-benefit analysis of spending a TU on a meta-org vs. a mod I don't see as very important at the beginning. On the subject of missing mods because they start at APL X, I just don't see missing a few mods out of the 60+ a newbie could play in their first year as a significant issue. LG is not a race. If the opportunity to play every mod is available, and a new player is willing, that's great. Most either won't have the opportunity or won't have the time to play everything, and that's ok too. I can't imagine counseling a newcomer to not play a wizard or to not have their dwarf join the local clan because in 1.5 years they might not get to play some mod at APL 10.