Retraining for a Monk - Suggestions? [WALL OF TEXT] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Retraining for a Monk - Suggestions? [WALL OF TEXT] [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ShinAkuma2
06-26-07, 07:46 PM My Monk will be retraining away his 1st level feat, Dodge, once he hits 11th lvl. I can't decide what I'd like to take.

His feats are currently:

Dodge (the feat being removed)
Improved Grapple
Endurance (prereq for Tattoed Monk, don't look at me funny)
Weakening Touch
Combat Reflexes (bonus feat, going to be retrained later)
Stunning Fist (bonus feat)
Improved Trip (bonus feat)

I initially took Dodge because it was one of the few things for which I qualified as a 1st lvl Monk (not even Weapon Focus? Snap). I ended up with Defensive Throw, but with the banning of the Chameleon Tattoo, I don't have an AC worth protecting with it, so now Dodge does me no good.

My normal MO, as a Monk, is basically "status changer"...That is, I concentrate on grappling, tripping, Stunning, Weakening, or at the very least, providing a flanker. I've also got a bit of a sub-theme of passing every saving throw ever, since my saves are pretty good, and I have 2 re-rolls every day.

I've considered Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Blind Fight, or Versatile Unarmed Strike...[edit] I could take Power Attack, too, since that does not have a BAB requirement (which I keep forgetting).

I've also thought about Heroic Destiny...After that, I'd take Protected Destiny at some point. Between Protected Destiny, Unicorn Tattoo, Mantle of Second Chances, and Not This Time! in conjunction with the Alterness-granting Ioun Stone I am purchasing soon, I'll have 3 re-rolls per day, plus one per mod. Not too shabby.

Does anyone have any other suggestions? Remember, I have to qualify as a 1st lvl Monk, so these are what I'd effectively have for prereq fuel:

Lawful Good, Half-Orc
BAB +0
+2 base saves
4 each in Jump, Religion, Tumble
18 Str
16 Dex
14 Con
8 Int
18 Wis
6 Cha

Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist

I would be grateful for any suggestions...
UMiskatonic
06-26-07, 11:16 PM You can retrain a bonus feat? That never occurred to me.

All the rerolls in the world won't help you, if you can't contribute to the party's well-being. You need to do something on the offensive side, because that troll isn't going to run out of claw anytime soon.

Changing status, as you put it, is a good way to go. So far, I see a pretty good strength, and imp trip, and imp. grapple, and weakening touch. Given that these are all strength-based maneuvers (along with that classic move, punch 'em in the face), I think you need a belt of giant strength yesterday. It will do as much for you as a monk's belt, don't worry, and help you do the one thing you've identified as 'your thing'

Have you thought about Imp. Bull Rush? For a strong, mobile guy, it can be really useful, and your fellow party members can easily help you out with long-lasting area effects like blade barrier and stinking cloud.

From there, I'd grab Power Attack (some things just need to be beaten to death, it's a good follow for the +4 to hit a prone guy, and Power Attack is great for property damage as well) Then, move toward the tactical feats from complete warrior.

Of course, you can now take Imp. Natural Attack from the Monster Manual, I know a lot of monks swear by this one.
UMiskatonic
06-26-07, 11:17 PM And there's always the feats needed for Pious Templar. Mettle and evasion are pretty sweet. May not fit the character, however.
ShinAkuma2
06-26-07, 11:31 PM All the rerolls in the world won't help you, if you can't contribute to the party's well-being. You need to do something on the offensive side, because that troll isn't going to run out of claw anytime soon.

On the other hand, all the offensive power in the world doesn't help when I roll poorly against the first save-or-go away spell.

Also, 2 of those re-rolls are on ANY d20, not just saves. I need to be able to roll well, which for me means rolling as often as possible. I swear, my d20 has 1-7 numbered twice.

I think you need a belt of giant strength yesterday. It will do as much for you as a monk's belt, don't worry, and help you do the one thing you've identified as 'your thing'

Actually, the 18 includes my +4 belt, but not my two stat bumps for leveling. Remember, I have to qualify for this feat as a 1st level character.

Have you thought about Imp. Bull Rush?
...
From there, I'd grab Power Attack

Problem is, Imp. Bull Rush requires Power Attack. I'd have to take it first. I hadn't originally considered it because I forgot it doesn't have a BAB requirement, so I think I'll add that to my list of "maybes".

Of course, you can now take Imp. Natural Attack from the Monster Manual, I know a lot of monks swear by this one.

That requires BAB +4...

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate the effort.

[edit] Oh, I have considered Pious Templar. I love the class. However, this is my first Monk, and I wanted him to have full advancement on the "monk abilities" all the way through. It's not even that they're that great...It's just the principle. I like the idea of have 90 ft movement.
Jamesps
06-27-07, 12:11 AM You know you want Leap of the Heavens. I don't know how effective you'd be able to make it, but my god it'd be fun. You could make like a 36 jump check with no running start. That's 36 feet accross or 9 feet straight up (41/10 if you do take that running start). That can be a hell of a surprise factor to enemies not expecting you to be able to "fly".

More seriously, have you considered other defensive options like Improved Toughness or Expeditious Dodge? I'm always paranoid about raw defense when I play monks.
ShinAkuma2
06-27-07, 12:45 PM I've thought about Leap of the Heavens. It is a really cool feat...I should add it to my list of "maybes".

Improved Toughness isn't bad...I keep getting hung up on the "no Non-Core feats until 3rd" thing from years past, so I forgot you can qualify at 1st.

Expeditious Dodge is ok, so long as I'm moving...However, that means I'm not getting full attacks. Considering how poorly I roll, I need as many attacks as I can get if I ever want to hit anything.

As for Power Attack, I ran some calculations and it seems that it would lower my average damage, except in the case of an enemy that I couldn't hit except with a 20, or one I couldn't miss except with a 1. Totally not worth it, especially since damage is not my primary concern.
CrystalBlue
06-27-07, 12:59 PM Maybe I'm having a brain hiccup...but don't you need Combat Expertice for Improved Grapple. As you took stunning fist was your bonus level one feat...you don't seem to qualify...though I might be completely wrong...
Nutation
06-27-07, 02:04 PM Combat Reflexes (bonus feat, going to be retrained later)

If you're going to be training out Combat Reflexes (for Fiery Fist?), you might want to train it back in again and carry a guisarme. That does mean that you'll have the same feat twice for a level (which is legal, but not useful).
ShinAkuma2
06-27-07, 03:15 PM Maybe I'm having a brain hiccup...but don't you need Combat Expertice for Improved Grapple.

Not at all. You only need IUS, and Dex 13.

If you're going to be training out Combat Reflexes (for Fiery Fist?), you might want to train it back in again and carry a guisarme.

Yeah, I'm going for Ki Blast since I lack ranged combat options.

I have no desire to use reach weapons with which I have no proficiency...It's just not within the character's motives. Maybe if he was more intelligent, or something, but not as he is. Otherwise, I'd have been doing that for a long time now, don't you think?
Jay_Ibero_911
06-27-07, 04:48 PM You know...even though it would take another feat...I think retraining to power attack and then picking up improved Bull rush at 12th could make a nice addition to Will's repetoire. Give you even more tactical options. I would vote for ability focus as second choice, because more stunned baddies is never a bad thing. If you go with Ability Focus, then Pain Touch might not be Bad as a follow-up feat. For something random...you could retrain to Grenadier...nothing like a highly mobile small arms platform, hehe. You could Take Earth Sense to get that pseudo-tremorsense ability. Delay Potion might be handy too, since I know you like the occasional potion of enlarge. Here's an interesting idea...Soul of the North grants you chill touch as a spell like ability once per day with caster level=character level, so that can increase your damage for almost an entire combat. Might want to look into some of the other spell like ability feats too, such as communicator, insightful, spell hand, and night haunt to give you some fun random extra stuff.
ShinAkuma2
06-27-07, 05:05 PM I do like Earth Sense a lot, but I believe it requires contact with "the ground". I don't want to be screwed out of a feat just because we walked indoors, or something, you know? I'm not sure that anything other than soil, etc, counts as "the ground".

Soul of the North would have been a great idea, and a great compliment to Weakening Touch. However, it states you get the SPAs as a 1st level caster, so I could only touch one guy with it.

Thanks for the ideas, Jay...I was going to ask your opinion on it soon. =)
Mommy was an Orc
06-27-07, 10:32 PM You can't retrain for it, but what about Sun School? That's a very nice battlefield control feat for a Monk.
magebeast
06-28-07, 01:36 AM On the "full monk progression" front I'd like to note that SR is a mixed blessing. Everyone, even allies, have to bypass SR when casting spells on yourself. You can drop it for a round but it's a standard action (I think) and as noted it only stays down for a round. If you go unconcious and need a heal...well, let's hope the cleric rolls past your SR. Want Haste, Enlarge Person, or any other buff? Well...SR again.
ShinAkuma2
06-29-07, 01:16 AM You can't retrain for it, but what about Sun School? That's a very nice battlefield control feat for a Monk.

If I was going to get Abundant Step, I'd consider it, but as it is, it gives effects on things that never happen, ie, me hitting/stunning more than once.

On the "full monk progression" front I'd like to note that SR is a mixed blessing.

Ok, that's nice...I won't have SR until epic levels, unless I decide to take the Phoenix tattoo, so I'm not concerned with that.
magebeast
06-29-07, 04:35 AM Ok, that's nice...I won't have SR until epic levels, unless I decide to take the Phoenix tattoo, so I'm not concerned with that.

How am I supposed to know that? You never posted a build for the character, and while you mentioned the chameleon tattoo offhand, for all I knew it was a future plan.

I suppose in the future I'll be sure to read minds.
ShinAkuma2
06-29-07, 12:08 PM I'm sorry, I thought that my three separate references of Tattooed Monk and/or its class abilities made it fairly clear that the character was a Tattooed Monk.

For future reference, he's Monk6/Tattooed Monk 4, continuing to TMnk9. Then he's going back to Monk levels, which means he won't have more than 11 regular Monk levels before he's erased from LG forever.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ShinAkuma2 06-26-07, 07:46 PM	My Monk will be retraining away his 1st level feat, Dodge, once he hits 11th lvl. I can't decide what I'd like to take. His feats are currently: Dodge (the feat being removed) Improved Grapple Endurance (prereq for Tattoed Monk, don't look at me funny) Weakening Touch Combat Reflexes (bonus feat, going to be retrained later) Stunning Fist (bonus feat) Improved Trip (bonus feat) I initially took Dodge because it was one of the few things for which I qualified as a 1st lvl Monk (not even Weapon Focus? Snap). I ended up with Defensive Throw, but with the banning of the Chameleon Tattoo, I don't have an AC worth protecting with it, so now Dodge does me no good. My normal MO, as a Monk, is basically "status changer"...That is, I concentrate on grappling, tripping, Stunning, Weakening, or at the very least, providing a flanker. I've also got a bit of a sub-theme of passing every saving throw ever, since my saves are pretty good, and I have 2 re-rolls every day. I've considered Ability Focus (Stunning Fist), Blind Fight, or Versatile Unarmed Strike...[edit] I could take Power Attack, too, since that does not have a BAB requirement (which I keep forgetting). I've also thought about Heroic Destiny...After that, I'd take Protected Destiny at some point. Between Protected Destiny, Unicorn Tattoo, Mantle of Second Chances, and Not This Time! in conjunction with the Alterness-granting Ioun Stone I am purchasing soon, I'll have 3 re-rolls per day, plus one per mod. Not too shabby. Does anyone have any other suggestions? Remember, I have to qualify as a 1st lvl Monk, so these are what I'd effectively have for prereq fuel: Lawful Good, Half-Orc BAB +0 +2 base saves 4 each in Jump, Religion, Tumble 18 Str 16 Dex 14 Con 8 Int 18 Wis 6 Cha Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist I would be grateful for any suggestions...
UMiskatonic 06-26-07, 11:16 PM	You can retrain a bonus feat? That never occurred to me. All the rerolls in the world won't help you, if you can't contribute to the party's well-being. You need to do something on the offensive side, because that troll isn't going to run out of claw anytime soon. Changing status, as you put it, is a good way to go. So far, I see a pretty good strength, and imp trip, and imp. grapple, and weakening touch. Given that these are all strength-based maneuvers (along with that classic move, punch 'em in the face), I think you need a belt of giant strength yesterday. It will do as much for you as a monk's belt, don't worry, and help you do the one thing you've identified as 'your thing' Have you thought about Imp. Bull Rush? For a strong, mobile guy, it can be really useful, and your fellow party members can easily help you out with long-lasting area effects like blade barrier and stinking cloud. From there, I'd grab Power Attack (some things just need to be beaten to death, it's a good follow for the +4 to hit a prone guy, and Power Attack is great for property damage as well) Then, move toward the tactical feats from complete warrior. Of course, you can now take Imp. Natural Attack from the Monster Manual, I know a lot of monks swear by this one.
UMiskatonic 06-26-07, 11:17 PM	And there's always the feats needed for Pious Templar. Mettle and evasion are pretty sweet. May not fit the character, however.
ShinAkuma2 06-26-07, 11:31 PM	All the rerolls in the world won't help you, if you can't contribute to the party's well-being. You need to do something on the offensive side, because that troll isn't going to run out of claw anytime soon. On the other hand, all the offensive power in the world doesn't help when I roll poorly against the first save-or-go away spell. Also, 2 of those re-rolls are on ANY d20, not just saves. I need to be able to roll well, which for me means rolling as often as possible. I swear, my d20 has 1-7 numbered twice. I think you need a belt of giant strength yesterday. It will do as much for you as a monk's belt, don't worry, and help you do the one thing you've identified as 'your thing' Actually, the 18 includes my +4 belt, but not my two stat bumps for leveling. Remember, I have to qualify for this feat as a 1st level character. Have you thought about Imp. Bull Rush? ... From there, I'd grab Power Attack Problem is, Imp. Bull Rush requires Power Attack. I'd have to take it first. I hadn't originally considered it because I forgot it doesn't have a BAB requirement, so I think I'll add that to my list of "maybes". Of course, you can now take Imp. Natural Attack from the Monster Manual, I know a lot of monks swear by this one. That requires BAB +4... Anyway, thanks for the suggestions. I appreciate the effort. [edit] Oh, I have considered Pious Templar. I love the class. However, this is my first Monk, and I wanted him to have full advancement on the "monk abilities" all the way through. It's not even that they're that great...It's just the principle. I like the idea of have 90 ft movement.
Jamesps 06-27-07, 12:11 AM	You know you want Leap of the Heavens. I don't know how effective you'd be able to make it, but my god it'd be fun. You could make like a 36 jump check with no running start. That's 36 feet accross or 9 feet straight up (41/10 if you do take that running start). That can be a hell of a surprise factor to enemies not expecting you to be able to "fly". More seriously, have you considered other defensive options like Improved Toughness or Expeditious Dodge? I'm always paranoid about raw defense when I play monks.
ShinAkuma2 06-27-07, 12:45 PM	I've thought about Leap of the Heavens. It is a really cool feat...I should add it to my list of "maybes". Improved Toughness isn't bad...I keep getting hung up on the "no Non-Core feats until 3rd" thing from years past, so I forgot you can qualify at 1st. Expeditious Dodge is ok, so long as I'm moving...However, that means I'm not getting full attacks. Considering how poorly I roll, I need as many attacks as I can get if I ever want to hit anything. As for Power Attack, I ran some calculations and it seems that it would lower my average damage, except in the case of an enemy that I couldn't hit except with a 20, or one I couldn't miss except with a 1. Totally not worth it, especially since damage is not my primary concern.
CrystalBlue 06-27-07, 12:59 PM	Maybe I'm having a brain hiccup...but don't you need Combat Expertice for Improved Grapple. As you took stunning fist was your bonus level one feat...you don't seem to qualify...though I might be completely wrong...
Nutation 06-27-07, 02:04 PM	Combat Reflexes (bonus feat, going to be retrained later) If you're going to be training out Combat Reflexes (for Fiery Fist?), you might want to train it back in again and carry a guisarme. That does mean that you'll have the same feat twice for a level (which is legal, but not useful).
ShinAkuma2 06-27-07, 03:15 PM	Maybe I'm having a brain hiccup...but don't you need Combat Expertice for Improved Grapple. Not at all. You only need IUS, and Dex 13. If you're going to be training out Combat Reflexes (for Fiery Fist?), you might want to train it back in again and carry a guisarme. Yeah, I'm going for Ki Blast since I lack ranged combat options. I have no desire to use reach weapons with which I have no proficiency...It's just not within the character's motives. Maybe if he was more intelligent, or something, but not as he is. Otherwise, I'd have been doing that for a long time now, don't you think?
Jay_Ibero_911 06-27-07, 04:48 PM	You know...even though it would take another feat...I think retraining to power attack and then picking up improved Bull rush at 12th could make a nice addition to Will's repetoire. Give you even more tactical options. I would vote for ability focus as second choice, because more stunned baddies is never a bad thing. If you go with Ability Focus, then Pain Touch might not be Bad as a follow-up feat. For something random...you could retrain to Grenadier...nothing like a highly mobile small arms platform, hehe. You could Take Earth Sense to get that pseudo-tremorsense ability. Delay Potion might be handy too, since I know you like the occasional potion of enlarge. Here's an interesting idea...Soul of the North grants you chill touch as a spell like ability once per day with caster level=character level, so that can increase your damage for almost an entire combat. Might want to look into some of the other spell like ability feats too, such as communicator, insightful, spell hand, and night haunt to give you some fun random extra stuff.
ShinAkuma2 06-27-07, 05:05 PM	I do like Earth Sense a lot, but I believe it requires contact with "the ground". I don't want to be screwed out of a feat just because we walked indoors, or something, you know? I'm not sure that anything other than soil, etc, counts as "the ground". Soul of the North would have been a great idea, and a great compliment to Weakening Touch. However, it states you get the SPAs as a 1st level caster, so I could only touch one guy with it. Thanks for the ideas, Jay...I was going to ask your opinion on it soon. =)
Mommy was an Orc 06-27-07, 10:32 PM	You can't retrain for it, but what about Sun School? That's a very nice battlefield control feat for a Monk.
magebeast 06-28-07, 01:36 AM	On the "full monk progression" front I'd like to note that SR is a mixed blessing. Everyone, even allies, have to bypass SR when casting spells on yourself. You can drop it for a round but it's a standard action (I think) and as noted it only stays down for a round. If you go unconcious and need a heal...well, let's hope the cleric rolls past your SR. Want Haste, Enlarge Person, or any other buff? Well...SR again.
ShinAkuma2 06-29-07, 01:16 AM	You can't retrain for it, but what about Sun School? That's a very nice battlefield control feat for a Monk. If I was going to get Abundant Step, I'd consider it, but as it is, it gives effects on things that never happen, ie, me hitting/stunning more than once. On the "full monk progression" front I'd like to note that SR is a mixed blessing. Ok, that's nice...I won't have SR until epic levels, unless I decide to take the Phoenix tattoo, so I'm not concerned with that.
magebeast 06-29-07, 04:35 AM	Ok, that's nice...I won't have SR until epic levels, unless I decide to take the Phoenix tattoo, so I'm not concerned with that. How am I supposed to know that? You never posted a build for the character, and while you mentioned the chameleon tattoo offhand, for all I knew it was a future plan. I suppose in the future I'll be sure to read minds.
ShinAkuma2 06-29-07, 12:08 PM	I'm sorry, I thought that my three separate references of Tattooed Monk and/or its class abilities made it fairly clear that the character was a Tattooed Monk. For future reference, he's Monk6/Tattooed Monk 4, continuing to TMnk9. Then he's going back to Monk levels, which means he won't have more than 11 regular Monk levels before he's erased from LG forever.