Rogue advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rogue advice [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TallGuy
09-29-06, 10:01 AM I've got the following character (he's level 2, so no changing attributes any more):

Aramil Stargem, Grey Elf Rogue 2, Chaotic Neutral
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Nimble Fingers
Skill ranks: Balance 5, Climb 5, Disable Device 5, Escape Artist 5, Hide 5, Jump 5, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Open Lock 5, Search 5, Spot 5, Tumble 5

I'd like to stay away from Arcane Trickster (even though he's got the perfect stats for that, it's out. I'd like him to be the perfect sneaky rogueish type, who can sneak in anywhere, disable any trap thrown at him, and get out unseen).

I do have access to the 'Infiltrator' and 'Enforcer' prestige classes, and might dip in there, as long as it doesn't jeopardise my other abilities.

Does anyone have any hints/tips/tricks for me? 3rd level feat will be taken up by Weapon Finesse, anything after that is fair game.

Thanks for the advice,

Bas Vermeulen
Sieylianna
09-29-06, 12:22 PM How about a couple of swashbuckler levels? It gives you weapon finesse for free and three (?) levels will let you add your INT bonus to your weapon damage.

Ed
UMiskatonic
09-29-06, 12:27 PM I wouldn't take weapon finesse. With a Str of 8 and a Con of 10, it's just a good way to get hurt. You won't last long in a fight.

With great DEX and elven use of the longbow, you'll make a decent archer. It fits the concept too. Sneak in, shoot a guy in the ear, and then escape.

I'd take Point Blank at 3, and Precise at 6. Two levels of Ranger will give you Rapid shot, better saves, two more hit points, and the Track feat. Overall, it's a great investment.

You'll lose 4 skill points. Trust me, that's okay.
trollbill
09-29-06, 12:35 PM Well, one rule to remember in LG is that no matter how good your character may be at bypassing combat, they will never be able to bypass all of them (and in all likelyhood the other players won't want that to happen anyway). So whenever I design a character whose focus is non-combat oriented, I still make it a point to make sure they can always help out in a fight. Your Weapon Focus is a good start.

Three levels in Swashbuckler can help there, also. If you take Swashbuckler at level 3, you get Weapon Finesse for free and can get another feet to help out. It will also help some with your low hit points due to only a 10 Con.

Levels in Thief Acrobat gives you combat abilities that make it easier to flank your foe and maximize your sneak attack. It also gives you some useful infiltrator abilities.

Improved Initiative is always good for rogues as it helps at catching your opponents flat-footed (and avoiding the same from them which is very important to your Dex based AC).

Two-weapon fighting is also good for rogues as they get more use out of multiple attacks than normal damage bonuses due to sneak attack.

You might also want to consider ranks in Use Magic Device. While your charisma is low, you will eventually get to a decent state if you keep putting the ranks in. Being able to use things like scrolls or wands of Gravestrike, Golemstrike, Vinestrike, Invisibility, Silence, Reduce Person, Truestrike, Detect Magic, Erase, Ghost Sound, and even Cure Light Wounds can prove very useful to your character build.

Your low strength and con are going to be a pretty big deficit in melee, though. So ranged attacker might be a good choice for this character. In which case you want the usual archer feats.
ShinAkuma2
09-29-06, 01:11 PM I would recommend Thief-Acrobat to any agility based character...

For when you absolutely, positively have to get there...without magic.
Japangirl
09-29-06, 01:19 PM Have you considered Master Thrower from Complete Warrior? It's a ranged prestige class with abilities that let you basically feint a target from range, though it uses Sleight of Hand to make it work. You would need to take several ranged feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus) to make it work, and having your first feat already taken up delays the class a lot. But it would work well with your build I think.
TallGuy
09-29-06, 03:55 PM I'm thinking about taking a level of Thief Acrobat (level 6, I'll have all the prereq's by then), followed with either Nightsong Infiltrator or Nightsong Enforcer at level 8.

Either that, or just go straight rogue and take opportunist or some other of the funky rogue stuff :)
Mommy was an Orc
09-29-06, 04:25 PM Aramil Stargem, Grey Elf Rogue 2, Chaotic Neutral
Str 8, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8
Feats: Nimble Fingers

Does anyone have any hints/tips/tricks for me? 3rd level feat will be taken up by Weapon Finesse, anything after that is fair game.

Ouch...I think you really need to decide what you want to do in combat. You're not going to survive melee with your hit points. A straight d10 class with a 14 Con likely has double your hit points and quite possibly your AC.

With a stat selection like yours, I'd get a bunch of archery feats and then go Arcane Trickster. As a possibility that maybe you haven't thought of, you don't actually have to cast spells to damage people - you can cast spells to make yourself better at archery.
TallGuy
09-30-06, 07:40 AM Ouch...I think you really need to decide what you want to do in combat. You're not going to survive melee with your hit points. A straight d10 class with a 14 Con likely has double your hit points and quite possibly your AC.

With a stat selection like yours, I'd get a bunch of archery feats and then go Arcane Trickster. As a possibility that maybe you haven't thought of, you don't actually have to cast spells to damage people - you can cast spells to make yourself better at archery.

I'd much rather take rapid reload at 3rd, then stock up on archery feats and use the crossbow. That's fine with me. He's going to be a trap-springer and a scout, with maxed out search/disable, a good spot/listen, so I can usually act in the surprise round, and perhaps improved initiative for the higher init. Gives me the chance to sneak, perhaps even in the surprise round *and* the normal round.

I'm tempted to take one level of thief acrobat (at 6th, for the improved mobility), then one level of Nightsong Enforcer (8th) for the +20 spot/listen for my own team, and follow up with Nightsong Infiltrator for the rest (9th and up). Try to fit in Improved Toughness somewhere, and I should be fine, especially if I take an amulet of health +x for the hitpoints.
Mommy was an Orc
09-30-06, 09:57 AM I'd much rather take rapid reload at 3rd, then stock up on archery feats and use the crossbow.

I'm tempted to take one level of thief acrobat (at 6th, for the improved mobility), then one level of Nightsong Enforcer (8th) for the +20 spot/listen for my own team, and follow up with Nightsong Infiltrator for the rest (9th and up). Try to fit in Improved Toughness somewhere, and I should be fine, especially if I take an amulet of health +x for the hitpoints.

You really need to write down the feats you need and the feats you plan to take. Here's the feats you need before 9th level if that's your plan:
Improved Initiative and Alertness.

Unless you take levels in a class that gives bonus feats, you need to take those as your 3rd and 6th level feats in order to match your plan. That means you also can't take any archery feat other than PBS until 12th, unless again, you take levels in something else.
TallGuy
10-01-06, 04:12 PM New plan:

Rogue 4/Scout 4/Nightsong Infiltrator X

1 - Rogue - Nimble Fingers - BAB +0
2 - Rogue - Evasion - BAB +1
3 - Rogue - PBS - BAB +2
4 - Rogue - Uncanny Dodge - +1 Dex - BAB +3
5 - Scout - BAB +3
6 - Scout - Precise Shot - (+1 Battle Fortitude) - BAB +4
7 - Scout - BAB +5
8 - Scout - Alertness (Scout bonus feat) - +1 Dex - BAB +6
9 - Nightsong Infiltrator - Rapid Reload - BAB +6
10 - Nightsong Infiltrator - BAB +7
11+ - Nightsong Infiltrator

I'm not 100% sure whether I want Nightsong Infiltrator or Nightsong Enforcer (or both), but both Improved Initiative and Alertness are bonus feats for the scout. I can keep up my skills with both, and skirmish will help on the damage department. Level 12 will/can get me stuff like rapid shot or some other interesting feat.
Sieylianna
10-01-06, 08:26 PM New plan:

Rogue 4/Scout 4/Nightsong Infiltrator X

1 - Rogue - Nimble Fingers - BAB +0
2 - Rogue - Evasion - BAB +1
3 - Rogue - PBS - BAB +2
4 - Rogue - Uncanny Dodge - +1 Dex - BAB +3
5 - Scout - BAB +3
6 - Scout - Precise Shot - (+1 Battle Fortitude) - BAB +4

You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up.

Ed
Mommy was an Orc
10-01-06, 08:45 PM You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up.

Ed

I'd go Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Thief-Acrobat 2/Nightsong Infiltrator 8 - because of Nimble Fingers, the build desperately needs a couple of extra feats, and that gets him all the main archery feats by 4th level while using 5th level to qualify for Thief-Acrobat in terms of skills.
TallGuy
10-02-06, 03:41 AM You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up.

Seeing how he's already level 2 (and hence the first level feat is already taken), that ain't going to happen. Sixth level is the first he's going to be able to take Precise Shot.
clik_ml
10-02-06, 05:10 AM Seeing how he's already level 2 (and hence the first level feat is already taken), that ain't going to happen. Sixth level is the first he's going to be able to take Precise Shot.

Unless you bite the nice and crunchy sugar-coated bullet and take 1 level of fighter at level 3, and BAM! you're an acceptable archer with PBS and Precise Shot. Granted you're not a good archer (those have some strength to write home about), but you're at least able to contribute to damage output in some fashion.

Stacking Rogue with Scout seems... unwise. Rogues do better by not moving and just getting as many sneak attacks as they can, scouts hope to do better by moving and getting their one anemic attack (unfortunately they offer so little in bonus skirmish damage that your extra attacks are likely still worth not moving, especially for an archer).

I'd drop those scout levels, because they are just holding you back from doing anything successfully. With an 18 int you can't be hurting for skill points unless you want to do *everything* skill based (which is a bad idea), so you can survive taking 1 or 2 fighter levels, along with a swashbuckler level too. That will net you 2 feats (probably archery feats) along with weapon finesse (should you become embroiled in melee somehow). Also it will give you bigger hit dice with which to survive with (as you're running under wizard HP right now).

2 Rogue
1 Ftr (PBS+Precise)
1 Rogue
1 Swash (WFin)
1 Ftr (RapidShot+RapidReload)
X Rogue

Future feats to consider from this: Imp Init, Woodland Archer, Improved Precise Shot, and if you get access the crossbow sniper one from PHB II.

[edit: I should note that rapid reload is far from mandatory, since it really only represents +1 damage over the longbow's 1d8-1, and someday when you have a belt of giant strength it won't be worth it. It's mostly for the looooong haul to go with the PHBII's Crossbow Sniper feat. And the X Rogue can be salted to taste with the nightsong classes.]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TallGuy 09-29-06, 10:01 AM	I've got the following character (he's level 2, so no changing attributes any more): Aramil Stargem, Grey Elf Rogue 2, Chaotic Neutral Str 8, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 Feats: Nimble Fingers Skill ranks: Balance 5, Climb 5, Disable Device 5, Escape Artist 5, Hide 5, Jump 5, Listen 5, Move Silently 5, Open Lock 5, Search 5, Spot 5, Tumble 5 I'd like to stay away from Arcane Trickster (even though he's got the perfect stats for that, it's out. I'd like him to be the perfect sneaky rogueish type, who can sneak in anywhere, disable any trap thrown at him, and get out unseen). I do have access to the 'Infiltrator' and 'Enforcer' prestige classes, and might dip in there, as long as it doesn't jeopardise my other abilities. Does anyone have any hints/tips/tricks for me? 3rd level feat will be taken up by Weapon Finesse, anything after that is fair game. Thanks for the advice, Bas Vermeulen
Sieylianna 09-29-06, 12:22 PM	How about a couple of swashbuckler levels? It gives you weapon finesse for free and three (?) levels will let you add your INT bonus to your weapon damage. Ed
UMiskatonic 09-29-06, 12:27 PM	I wouldn't take weapon finesse. With a Str of 8 and a Con of 10, it's just a good way to get hurt. You won't last long in a fight. With great DEX and elven use of the longbow, you'll make a decent archer. It fits the concept too. Sneak in, shoot a guy in the ear, and then escape. I'd take Point Blank at 3, and Precise at 6. Two levels of Ranger will give you Rapid shot, better saves, two more hit points, and the Track feat. Overall, it's a great investment. You'll lose 4 skill points. Trust me, that's okay.
trollbill 09-29-06, 12:35 PM	Well, one rule to remember in LG is that no matter how good your character may be at bypassing combat, they will never be able to bypass all of them (and in all likelyhood the other players won't want that to happen anyway). So whenever I design a character whose focus is non-combat oriented, I still make it a point to make sure they can always help out in a fight. Your Weapon Focus is a good start. Three levels in Swashbuckler can help there, also. If you take Swashbuckler at level 3, you get Weapon Finesse for free and can get another feet to help out. It will also help some with your low hit points due to only a 10 Con. Levels in Thief Acrobat gives you combat abilities that make it easier to flank your foe and maximize your sneak attack. It also gives you some useful infiltrator abilities. Improved Initiative is always good for rogues as it helps at catching your opponents flat-footed (and avoiding the same from them which is very important to your Dex based AC). Two-weapon fighting is also good for rogues as they get more use out of multiple attacks than normal damage bonuses due to sneak attack. You might also want to consider ranks in Use Magic Device. While your charisma is low, you will eventually get to a decent state if you keep putting the ranks in. Being able to use things like scrolls or wands of Gravestrike, Golemstrike, Vinestrike, Invisibility, Silence, Reduce Person, Truestrike, Detect Magic, Erase, Ghost Sound, and even Cure Light Wounds can prove very useful to your character build. Your low strength and con are going to be a pretty big deficit in melee, though. So ranged attacker might be a good choice for this character. In which case you want the usual archer feats.
ShinAkuma2 09-29-06, 01:11 PM	I would recommend Thief-Acrobat to any agility based character... For when you absolutely, positively have to get there...without magic.
Japangirl 09-29-06, 01:19 PM	Have you considered Master Thrower from Complete Warrior? It's a ranged prestige class with abilities that let you basically feint a target from range, though it uses Sleight of Hand to make it work. You would need to take several ranged feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus) to make it work, and having your first feat already taken up delays the class a lot. But it would work well with your build I think.
TallGuy 09-29-06, 03:55 PM	I'm thinking about taking a level of Thief Acrobat (level 6, I'll have all the prereq's by then), followed with either Nightsong Infiltrator or Nightsong Enforcer at level 8. Either that, or just go straight rogue and take opportunist or some other of the funky rogue stuff :)
Mommy was an Orc 09-29-06, 04:25 PM	Aramil Stargem, Grey Elf Rogue 2, Chaotic Neutral Str 8, Dex 18, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 8 Feats: Nimble Fingers Does anyone have any hints/tips/tricks for me? 3rd level feat will be taken up by Weapon Finesse, anything after that is fair game. Ouch...I think you really need to decide what you want to do in combat. You're not going to survive melee with your hit points. A straight d10 class with a 14 Con likely has double your hit points and quite possibly your AC. With a stat selection like yours, I'd get a bunch of archery feats and then go Arcane Trickster. As a possibility that maybe you haven't thought of, you don't actually have to cast spells to damage people - you can cast spells to make yourself better at archery.
TallGuy 09-30-06, 07:40 AM	Ouch...I think you really need to decide what you want to do in combat. You're not going to survive melee with your hit points. A straight d10 class with a 14 Con likely has double your hit points and quite possibly your AC. With a stat selection like yours, I'd get a bunch of archery feats and then go Arcane Trickster. As a possibility that maybe you haven't thought of, you don't actually have to cast spells to damage people - you can cast spells to make yourself better at archery. I'd much rather take rapid reload at 3rd, then stock up on archery feats and use the crossbow. That's fine with me. He's going to be a trap-springer and a scout, with maxed out search/disable, a good spot/listen, so I can usually act in the surprise round, and perhaps improved initiative for the higher init. Gives me the chance to sneak, perhaps even in the surprise round and the normal round. I'm tempted to take one level of thief acrobat (at 6th, for the improved mobility), then one level of Nightsong Enforcer (8th) for the +20 spot/listen for my own team, and follow up with Nightsong Infiltrator for the rest (9th and up). Try to fit in Improved Toughness somewhere, and I should be fine, especially if I take an amulet of health +x for the hitpoints.
Mommy was an Orc 09-30-06, 09:57 AM	I'd much rather take rapid reload at 3rd, then stock up on archery feats and use the crossbow. I'm tempted to take one level of thief acrobat (at 6th, for the improved mobility), then one level of Nightsong Enforcer (8th) for the +20 spot/listen for my own team, and follow up with Nightsong Infiltrator for the rest (9th and up). Try to fit in Improved Toughness somewhere, and I should be fine, especially if I take an amulet of health +x for the hitpoints. You really need to write down the feats you need and the feats you plan to take. Here's the feats you need before 9th level if that's your plan: Improved Initiative and Alertness. Unless you take levels in a class that gives bonus feats, you need to take those as your 3rd and 6th level feats in order to match your plan. That means you also can't take any archery feat other than PBS until 12th, unless again, you take levels in something else.
TallGuy 10-01-06, 04:12 PM	New plan: Rogue 4/Scout 4/Nightsong Infiltrator X 1 - Rogue - Nimble Fingers - BAB +0 2 - Rogue - Evasion - BAB +1 3 - Rogue - PBS - BAB +2 4 - Rogue - Uncanny Dodge - +1 Dex - BAB +3 5 - Scout - BAB +3 6 - Scout - Precise Shot - (+1 Battle Fortitude) - BAB +4 7 - Scout - BAB +5 8 - Scout - Alertness (Scout bonus feat) - +1 Dex - BAB +6 9 - Nightsong Infiltrator - Rapid Reload - BAB +6 10 - Nightsong Infiltrator - BAB +7 11+ - Nightsong Infiltrator I'm not 100% sure whether I want Nightsong Infiltrator or Nightsong Enforcer (or both), but both Improved Initiative and Alertness are bonus feats for the scout. I can keep up my skills with both, and skirmish will help on the damage department. Level 12 will/can get me stuff like rapid shot or some other interesting feat.
Sieylianna 10-01-06, 08:26 PM	New plan: Rogue 4/Scout 4/Nightsong Infiltrator X 1 - Rogue - Nimble Fingers - BAB +0 2 - Rogue - Evasion - BAB +1 3 - Rogue - PBS - BAB +2 4 - Rogue - Uncanny Dodge - +1 Dex - BAB +3 5 - Scout - BAB +3 6 - Scout - Precise Shot - (+1 Battle Fortitude) - BAB +4 You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up. Ed
Mommy was an Orc 10-01-06, 08:45 PM	You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up. Ed I'd go Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Thief-Acrobat 2/Nightsong Infiltrator 8 - because of Nimble Fingers, the build desperately needs a couple of extra feats, and that gets him all the main archery feats by 4th level while using 5th level to qualify for Thief-Acrobat in terms of skills.
TallGuy 10-02-06, 03:41 AM	You're going to be almost useless as an archer without precise shot. You don't want to wait until 6th level to take it. I'd move nimble fingers down to sixth level and move the two archery feats up. Seeing how he's already level 2 (and hence the first level feat is already taken), that ain't going to happen. Sixth level is the first he's going to be able to take Precise Shot.
clik_ml 10-02-06, 05:10 AM	Seeing how he's already level 2 (and hence the first level feat is already taken), that ain't going to happen. Sixth level is the first he's going to be able to take Precise Shot. Unless you bite the nice and crunchy sugar-coated bullet and take 1 level of fighter at level 3, and BAM! you're an acceptable archer with PBS and Precise Shot. Granted you're not a good archer (those have some strength to write home about), but you're at least able to contribute to damage output in some fashion. Stacking Rogue with Scout seems... unwise. Rogues do better by not moving and just getting as many sneak attacks as they can, scouts hope to do better by moving and getting their one anemic attack (unfortunately they offer so little in bonus skirmish damage that your extra attacks are likely still worth not moving, especially for an archer). I'd drop those scout levels, because they are just holding you back from doing anything successfully. With an 18 int you can't be hurting for skill points unless you want to do everything skill based (which is a bad idea), so you can survive taking 1 or 2 fighter levels, along with a swashbuckler level too. That will net you 2 feats (probably archery feats) along with weapon finesse (should you become embroiled in melee somehow). Also it will give you bigger hit dice with which to survive with (as you're running under wizard HP right now). 2 Rogue 1 Ftr (PBS+Precise) 1 Rogue 1 Swash (WFin) 1 Ftr (RapidShot+RapidReload) X Rogue Future feats to consider from this: Imp Init, Woodland Archer, Improved Precise Shot, and if you get access the crossbow sniper one from PHB II. [edit: I should note that rapid reload is far from mandatory, since it really only represents +1 damage over the longbow's 1d8-1, and someday when you have a belt of giant strength it won't be worth it. It's mostly for the looooong haul to go with the PHBII's Crossbow Sniper feat. And the X Rogue can be salted to taste with the nightsong classes.]