Post/Author/DateTime	Post
bitznarf 11-02-07, 12:24 PM	Given that the end of the campaign is coming, I am unlikely to ever be able to get my Rogue PC to the point I was hoping he would reach. So without further ado... Human (Baklunish) - with darkvision for a few more mods Str 12, Dex 16+2, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8 HP: 45 AC: 24 (25 with dodge) Rogue 1 - Dodge, Mobility Ranger 1 Rogue 2 - Weapon Finesse Rogue 3 Rogue 4 Rogue 5 - Combat Reflexes Rogue 6 The original plan was to take 1 Shadowdancer level for HiPS, Elusive Target at 9, get to Rogue 10 and take Crippling Strike along with Savvy Rogue at 12th. At this point I would look again and decide between more Rogue levels or a few Shadowdancer levels to pick up a shadow companion for even more strength damage to critters. As I see it, I have 3 options at the moment. I can continue with the original plan of shadowdancer (losing some more BAB in the process). I can retrain Combat Reflexes into Improved Init and take a Nightsong Enforcer level, catching my SnAt up to where it would be on a straight rogue. With this option I'm not sure if I would take Rogue all the way to 10, and take Staggering Strike at 12 instead. Or I can just take more Rogue levels, retrain Combat Reflexes into Two Weapon Fighting and just stab stuff. Anyone have any other ideas, or input on the ones above?
magebeast 11-02-07, 03:27 PM	Given that the end of the campaign is coming, I am unlikely to ever be able to get my Rogue PC to the point I was hoping he would reach. So without further ado... Human (Baklunish) - with darkvision for a few more mods Str 12, Dex 16+2, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8 HP: 45 AC: 24 (25 with dodge) Rogue 1 - Dodge, Mobility Ranger 1 Rogue 2 - Weapon Finesse Rogue 3 Rogue 4 Rogue 5 - Combat Reflexes Rogue 6 The original plan was to take 1 Shadowdancer level for HiPS, Elusive Target at 9, get to Rogue 10 and take Crippling Strike along with Savvy Rogue at 12th. At this point I would look again and decide between more Rogue levels or a few Shadowdancer levels to pick up a shadow companion for even more strength damage to critters. As I see it, I have 3 options at the moment. I can continue with the original plan of shadowdancer (losing some more BAB in the process). I can retrain Combat Reflexes into Improved Init and take a Nightsong Enforcer level, catching my SnAt up to where it would be on a straight rogue. With this option I'm not sure if I would take Rogue all the way to 10, and take Staggering Strike at 12 instead. Or I can just take more Rogue levels, retrain Combat Reflexes into Two Weapon Fighting and just stab stuff. Anyone have any other ideas, or input on the ones above? I'd go for the second or third option. Well built blender rogues are mean.
jstorrie 11-03-07, 10:57 PM	Hide in Plain Sight ain't so good. I wouldn't delay your Rogue progress for it. How's your attack bonus? Are you using Weapon Finesse? Could you run up to Rogue 10, then retrain Finesse out, dip Swash 3 for Int to damage and take Daring Outlaw, and finish with Rogue 12 / Swash 3?
Lomiat 11-04-07, 08:29 PM	What do you feel is your PC's role in a party? If it's primarily as a trap-finder, scout, and skills character, Shadowdancer is an excellent path. If it's as a melee damager, then you need two-weapon fighting. But can you stick around for the two or three rounds of combat in high-level mods? And do you play with people who are willing to work with you when you spend a round moving for your flank? The problem, as I see it, is that rogues just tend to get screwed in LG. Every mod is written to allow parties of any composition (aka "sans rogue") to succeed, and, thus, rogues don't become critical when any character can "disarm" a trap by stepping into it and getting healed (if they make the save-or-die saves) -- or pick a lock with their adamantine weapons. Hide in Plain Sight is fantastic, but you have to be able to convince your party to work with you (and it's best to pick up the Darkstalker feat if you can find access). And you have to have a role to fill when the party just ignores all your primary abilities.
_metz_ 11-05-07, 10:38 AM	Given that the end of the campaign is coming, I am unlikely to ever be able to get my Rogue PC to the point I was hoping he would reach. So without further ado... Human (Baklunish) - with darkvision for a few more mods Str 12, Dex 16+2, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8 HP: 45 AC: 24 (25 with dodge) Rogue 1 - Dodge, Mobility Ranger 1 Rogue 2 - Weapon Finesse Rogue 3 Rogue 4 Rogue 5 - Combat Reflexes Rogue 6 The original plan was to take 1 Shadowdancer level for HiPS, Elusive Target at 9, get to Rogue 10 and take Crippling Strike along with Savvy Rogue at 12th. At this point I would look again and decide between more Rogue levels or a few Shadowdancer levels to pick up a shadow companion for even more strength damage to critters. As I see it, I have 3 options at the moment. I can continue with the original plan of shadowdancer (losing some more BAB in the process). I can retrain Combat Reflexes into Improved Init and take a Nightsong Enforcer level, catching my SnAt up to where it would be on a straight rogue. With this option I'm not sure if I would take Rogue all the way to 10, and take Staggering Strike at 12 instead. Or I can just take more Rogue levels, retrain Combat Reflexes into Two Weapon Fighting and just stab stuff. Anyone have any other ideas, or input on the ones above? Why do you only have one level of ranger when the second level gives you TWF for free, and you can retrain/dump skills into survival for tracking? seems odd to me, that you only have the one level...
bitznarf 11-05-07, 12:46 PM	How's your attack bonus? Are you using Weapon Finesse? Could you run up to Rogue 10, then retrain Finesse out, dip Swash 3 for Int to damage and take Daring Outlaw, and finish with Rogue 12 / Swash 3? Attack bonus is sitting at +10 at the moment without any flanks or buffs. Yes, I am using weapon finesse. Int to damage would only get me +2 damage. There has to be a better way to spend those 3 levels. Why do you only have one level of ranger when the second level gives you TWF for free, and you can retrain/dump skills into survival for tracking? seems odd to me, that you only have the one level... The ranger level was in there (still is for that matter) to be able to reliably use CLW wands. With no clerics or other divine casters in sight, this was needed. And the reason I never took a second level - TWF was never the plan. Using a shield has enabled me to stick around on the front line without worrying to much about getting ground into a pulp. What do you feel is your PC's role in a party? If it's primarily as a trap-finder, scout, and skills character, Shadowdancer is an excellent path. If it's as a melee damager, then you need two-weapon fighting. But can you stick around for the two or three rounds of combat in high-level mods? And do you play with people who are willing to work with you when you spend a round moving for your flank? Is there a reasonably effective way to do both or would I simply become poor at both? Perhaps continue with this: 8: Ranger 2 - TWF, 6 BaB 9: Shadowdancer 1 - HiPS, Elusive Target 10: Rogue 7 - now at 4d6 SnAt How much shadowdancer is actually useful? Is anything beyond a 1 level dip useless for this build? Oh, and I do have access to a ring of the darkhidden that I intend to pickup next mod.
Hariman 11-06-07, 12:12 AM	Attack bonus is sitting at +10 at the moment without any flanks or buffs. Yes, I am using weapon finesse. Int to damage would only get me +2 damage. There has to be a better way to spend those 3 levels. But those three swashbuckler levels add +3 BAB, extra HP, a better fort save, the ability to retrain your previous "Weapon Finesse", AND the ability to take "Daring Outlaw" (Complete Scoundrel, I think). And +2 to damage on top of that. Daring Outlaw would add at least 1d6 damage from extra sneak attack as well.
_metz_ 11-06-07, 01:17 AM	But those three swashbuckler levels add +3 BAB, extra HP, a better fort save, the ability to retrain your previous "Weapon Finesse", AND the ability to take "Daring Outlaw" (Complete Scoundrel, I think). And +2 to damage on top of that. Daring Outlaw would add at least 1d6 damage from extra sneak attack as well. My main inclination is to the second level of Ranger (will send damage potential way up) And then maybe go for a level of shadow dancer. take 2 levels of swash (retrain the weapon finesse) and use it for the dodge bonuses to AC with daring outlaw (only need 2 swash) something along the lines of: (after existing build) 8: Ranger2 (TWF) - Max survival for good tracking 9: Shadowdancer1 10: Swashbuckler1 (retrain weapon finesse to something useful like staggering strike, etc depends on when you took it) 11: Swashbuckler2: Grace 12: Rogue 7 (sneak attack now 5d6) - Daring Outlaw feat 13: Rogue 8 (Improved Uncanny dodge) 14: Rogue 9 (Sneak attack now 6d6) 15: Rogue 10: (Crippling strike) - Savvy Rogue Feat This way you stay a scout/skillmonkey) who can hide, but can still doa reasonable amount of damage on a flank. You will also have 12 levels of swashbuckler dodge bonus to AC as well as BAB of +11/+6/+1 (with TWF and haste thats a reasonable full attack)
bitznarf 11-06-07, 10:43 AM	How big is the dodge bonus via grace from Swashbuckler at that point? I don't have my books infront of me. I origionally took Swashbuckler at level 3, what would be useful to retrain into at that point? Should I consider Combat Expertise for those times when I really need to cork up?
_metz_ 11-06-07, 08:06 PM	Its only a +2 dodge bonus and a +2 to reflex saves, but it allows sneak attack progression and gives you two more BAB. I would have inititally suggested 13 rogue otherwise, for the two tricks.
bitznarf 11-07-07, 10:34 AM	Okay, so I just leveled last night and will take that ranger level. For me second weapon, should I make it something like adamantine or starmetal? Should I even be concerned about that given my relative ineffectiveness against things that tend to have DR/adamantine anyway? I am currently considering a starmetal light mace for those pesky outsiders.
_metz_ 11-07-07, 10:46 AM	Okay, so I just leveled last night and will take that ranger level. For me second weapon, should I make it something like adamantine or starmetal? Should I even be concerned about that given my relative ineffectiveness against things that tend to have DR/adamantine anyway? I am currently considering a starmetal light mace for those pesky outsiders. better off with a ring of adamantine (whatever it is called) if you can get access, and just saving your money to make the weapon corrosive/thundering etc thats in my experience. Dessicating is best if you have access, (nothing is immune really, except earth types who take slightly less damage) but sacred works really well too. Starmetal can work, but its more useful as something to lend the fighter,and as a light weapon that isn't so useful... (no power attack) Aim for Thundering, Corrosive or Dessicating access, followed bysacred.They are usually the best upgrades. Stuff with DR adamantine is usually unsneakable, so no point wasting 5 grand to do 1d6 damage...
jstorrie 11-07-07, 08:37 PM	Things that have DR/adamantine are generally best dealth with via UMD.