Rogues in LG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rogues in LG? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Painlord
07-20-07, 06:26 PM Hey--

I'm still trying to learn this silly hobby. I've been reading the boards and have heard contradictory things about Rogues (aka rouges).

It seems, based on the past 2 years of LG mods, that Rogues' main abilities de-trapping, spotting, sneaking, lockpicking are all either:
1) done better or done at least equally as well by other classes or
2) pretty much not in high demand as the mod writers don't regularly include ways for the unique Rogue skills to be useful.

And it seems (but then again, I am new and unlearned) that Rogues are, for the most part, pretty useless in actually doing damage in combat, aside from the occasional sneak attack and wutnot. It seems that half the posts I read have the rogue as nothing more than a buffer (using various magical devices), but unable to do anything to really affect the creatures that currently infest high level APLs.

Again, I don't know if this is true...perhaps you would enlighten me as I'm thinking about starting up a pure rogue and wonder if it's worth the time and investment.

1) Is building an LG rogue going to be worth it if the current trend of LG mods continues as it is?

2) Should I even think about bothering with disable device/tumble/balance/climb or just concentrate on Use Magical Device/Decipher Script?

3) If I actually wanted to deal damage as a rogue outside of sneak attack, how would I construct a rogue to do such? Two weapon fighting? Archering?
3a) What kind of rogue specialty has the highest chance of put the hurt on the bad guys? Mage-Rogue? Archer-Rogue? Sneak-Rogue?

Yeah...a lot of questions I have....but it seems so many of youse have so many answers.

Thanks in advance,

-Painlord
bitznarf
07-20-07, 07:41 PM I recomend you take a look at the Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer build in the 597 compilation.
control freak
07-20-07, 08:10 PM rogues have 3 real nerfs on them

1: the way mods are written (already talked about)
2: the best way to deal damage is sneak attack, what % of grey hawk is undead/immune to crits now?
3: alignment if they let alignment run wild and you could be evil assasin would be a fine class and would let them do more combat rogueish stuff

if they changed any of these 3 up in favor of rogues it would be alot better (i started my first time with a rogue till it reached level 3 and i had disarmed a total of 1 trap over like 9-10 mods) and then got killed playing down by a full attack from a sea cat (from 25 to -11 in 1 round after smashing it for like 30) i started to realize greyhawk doesnt have the tipical iconic party its iconic party is cleirc, druid, wiz, sorc, BDF (attacker), BDF(defender) thats much more like it beause they RUINED the whole trap thing (make traps more important or remove non evil things other wise BAD things happen to rogues)
_metz_
07-20-07, 08:52 PM Having said all of that, rogues are really cool.

Play what you want, just take care to make a good build, as rogues DO suffer a bit, but can make up for it if the character is interesting.

TWF rogues are usually the best bet, or Rogues with caster levels. (which whilst effective I am not a big fan of.)

Skull clan Hunters work reasonably well...
Banor
07-20-07, 09:08 PM The thing with the rogue is that you arent brigning a lot to the party. A single level of Rogue get you trapfinding; a Rogue 10 or anyclass with a good search check and a rogue dip are equally good to get trap. Being sneaky can be achived by anyone who actually want to spend skill point into Hide, Move silently etc... or best anyone that can use a wand of invisibility. UMD ? While rogues are one of the few classes that got UMD as a class skill, a simple level of a spellcasting class will get you a much more reliable version of UMD :)

So all a rogue is left with is Sneak attack. Its not a bad way to do damage especially with 2 weapon fighting, but its very unreliable. Undead notably bring your damage output to oblivion. You need to get flanking which sometime get you in trouble with dangerous positioning. If you compare to what a 2handed power attacker can bring into combat, you are years behind.

That why the USS is so popular, it improve your overall utility with some low level spell, and greatly improve the reliability of your sneak attack. Not mention that multiple books brought a lots of spells that basically do what rogues used to be the best at (mobility, trapfinding, moving silently etc..)
SgtHulka
07-20-07, 09:34 PM I play a rogue, which, admittedly is only 7th level and has already died once.

A couple of years I would have agreed with everything you said.

This year, however, I'm seeing a difference. I'm seeing a lot more sneak-able enemies. And I'm seeing more traps that can't be disarmed by exploding celestial monkeys.

Rogues have unique challenges. Since their primary role is trapfinder, they often find themselves alone in the dark with a lockpick between their teeth while everyone else his hiding around the corner. It's a dangerous job, and they don't have enough hit points to screw up more than two or three times.

As for sneak attacking, if you go straight rogue that's pretty much your schtick. And then it becomes a matter of how you want to pursue that schtick. I've seen a halfling rogue with improved initiative and quickdraw and a bandolier full of alchemists fire that was quite amusing. But, generally, the typical way to get in your sneak attacks is to tumble into a flanking position. That's why two-weapon fighting rogues are generally favored...it effectively doubles your flanking sneak attack.

By and large, rogues are challenging, but extremely fun characters to play. They probably aren't as welcome at a typical table as, say, a cleric or a big dumb fighter, but they're not the pariahs they once were, imho.

When you conceive your character, think of the following:

1) How are you going to sneak attack? Surprise/High initiative? Hide/Invisibility? Flanking? Feinting?

2) How are you going to survive melee? High armor class? High hit points? By attacking from range? Staggering strike? Elusive target?

3) How are you going to survive grappling? Escape artist? Ring of freedom of movement? Dimension door? Improved grapple?

4) How are you going to contribute in fights with non-sneakable enemies? Consumables and/or Use Magic Device? Magically make them sneakable via spells or prestige class features? Enchantments to weapons? Aid another?

5) How are you going to keep your non- reflex saves high? Racial bonuses? High con? Multi-classing?
JamesMaissen
07-20-07, 09:48 PM Hey--

I'm still trying to learn this silly hobby. I've been reading the boards and have heard contradictory things about Rogues (aka rouges).

First of all there is 'perception' in LG. This can differ from reality, though many assume otherwise. Many things can be perceived as useless or broken without being either.

Rogues can offer many things to a group just like any other class.

Traps: when these come up a rogue shines. Just like a turning focused cleric when undead show up, a rogue makes such things much easier. If traps don't show up a lot then it will seem less useful.. just like a turning cleric when undead don't show.

Scouting: most people are not used to this. And that's not just the other players, but the judge and even authors. It takes a bit of work to get a party used to it, sometimes several times for judges to get used to parties utilizing it and many times to get around authors not being used to it. It is quite worthwhile doing however as knowledge is power and that only scales in importance as levels increase.

Other skills: I like to think of one of the rogue's special abilities as their increased number of skills/level. Pick skills to be competent in, to be good in, and to be astoundingly good in. Treat them like you would feats for a fighter.. they are strongly important for you.

Sneak attack: this is not your only role in combat, rather it gives you a way to compare to a fighter in certain situations. You are strong here, but should not be helpless when you cannot do it. Just like a wizard would be wrong to throw up his hands helpless against a golem (say by only using spells with SR yes) so too should a rogue have plans for helping out against things they can't sneak in combat.

Rogue is a valid archetype. In some places it needs a bit of work by the player to fit into LG. If you play them like a fighter then you will be sorry in the long run.

-James
ShinAkuma2
07-20-07, 10:02 PM The biggest argument against Rogues is that other classes (ie spellcasters) can more or less do whatever it is the Rogue can do. Locks can be opened, heights can be scaled, traps can be bypassed.

My response is: Maybe we might want to do these things without blowing spells.

This is why we have Rogues.

I think a well-made Rogue is great to have, because a party will kick itself in the ass when the caster says he "didn't prep that today".
Sieylianna
07-21-07, 11:04 AM I think the swashbuckler/rogue daring outlaw with TWF is another way to have an effective rogue PC, if you don't want to become a spellcaster.

Ed
myshkingfh
07-21-07, 12:17 PM My main character is a rogue, and I want to say that smart rogues are very fun to play. I started with a 16 intelligence and 44 skill points at first level. That's about three times the skill points than an int punting fighter will have in his whole career, and I got them at first level. People like to place a lot of value on in-combat prowess (not that rogues can't perform well there) but there are other parts of the game where rogues can really shine. It's fun to always get a skill check. It's fun when you can jump further than the fighter, even though he has 18str and you have 8. A 16 int rogue can max out 11 skills. That means he can be a strong party face even with a low cha, or an excellent spotter/listener even with a low wis.

In combat, a high int rogue can use daring outlaw and swashbuckler to have as big a damage bonus as a high str fighter (though, sadly, no power attack). Plus, that same high int rogue can easily qualify for unseen seer and also develop as a back-up arcanist. A rogue/swashbuckler can be almost as powerful in melee as a fighter (and then why not take dervish?); a rogue/uss can be almost as powerful in magic as a straight wizard. In either case, the rogue keeps almost all the benefits of a straight rogue.
jstorrie
07-21-07, 12:28 PM I think the swashbuckler/rogue daring outlaw with TWF is another way to have an effective rogue PC, if you don't want to become a spellcaster.

Or Finesse-Power Attacking a Courtblade with Weapon Spec/Mastery...

Rogue 10 is fine, though. Just don't fall into the trap of playing with an 8 Strength and a 10 Con so that you can max your Dex. If you're a frontline melee character, you should have 14s in your physicals, even if that means having 14-16 or even 14-14 for your Int and Dex.

Scouting works, and is powerful, but only if your party plays along. Trapfinding is more important than stealth if it comes down to choosing one or the other. UMD is critical.
jimmy_dowdall
07-21-07, 02:31 PM rogues rock ;)
UMiskatonic
07-21-07, 02:50 PM I started in year two with a rogue, and was able to rebuild her twice. Learned a lot in the process of getting her up to 14th level. If I were to build a new LG rogue, I'd do the following:

1) Decide how I'm going to fight. Will I be an archer, a spring attacker, a TWFighter?

2) Let the fighting style determine feat selection. This is where you would decide on multi-classing ideas, like a level of fighter, ranger, barbarian, or swashbuckler.

3) Let the character build determine stat placement. If you're basically a trapfinder, you need intelligence, and can get by with a 10 Dex. If you're going to be a diplomat, you might want a 12 CHA. I would make sure to have a 14 CON no matter what happens.

4) Finally, go forth and decide on your skills. Generally, as a straight rogue, you'll succeed most of the time. Taking a feat like Skill Focus (Hide) is just crippling your ability to fight, when you could have instead spent 50 gold on MW hiding tools.
Frumpkis
07-21-07, 03:27 PM Another alternative option is to go with a scout/ranger archer build. You get many of the same benefits towards fulfilling the "rogue" roles - trapfinding (scouts get disable device as a class skill, thanks to the errata) and scouting - while also being strong in combat. As an archer, you don't have to worry about manouvering into (possibly vulnerable) flanking positions just to get your sneak attack in.
Pint_Glass_Crusader
07-22-07, 05:13 PM Rogues may seem like they are not essential, but that is always in retrospect (after the module is over!).

No self-respecting party would "leave home" without considering the need for a Rogue.

I always hear about how arcane casters can do this or that better than other classes... but how many actually do?

If there is a Rogue in the party, and it comes to a choice between memorizing "spider climb" or "damage spell X", what would you go for?

Exactly... don't listen to them!

I've played a number of rogues through the years and I have always had the most fun and success with "sniper" Rogue builds. Making use of feats like "Able Sniper" [RotW], "Crossbow Sniper" [PH2, very rogue friendly] and later "Woodland Archer" [RotW].

This lets you fill a powerful tactical roll in combat encounters, different from the typical "melee sneak-attack" everyone goes for... not forgetting of course, you can close to melee for a sneak-attack on a vulnerable opponent if you need to.
Sieylianna
07-22-07, 08:57 PM I always hear about how arcane casters can do this or that better than other classes... but how many actually do?

I don't have anything against rogues, having a couple of them in my stable of LG characters, but I can't think of the last time that I said "This module would have been easier with a rogue". On the other hand, most recently last weekend, when we don't have an arcane type, someone will comment on how much easier it would have been with a wizard/sorcerer.

Ed
jstorrie
07-22-07, 09:08 PM The different Rogue builds all offer different advantages.

If you want to have a solution for every non-social situation, and a variety of options in combat, pick Unseen Seer and/or Arcane Trickster.

If you want to rule the school in social situations, there are a number of Charisma-focused builds, varying from straight Rogue to Shadowbane Inquisitor types.

If you want to be a combat powerhouse, the Fighter/Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw builds and a variety of part-Rogue or part-Scout archers are great.

If you'd like to be competent across the board without over-specializating, a 16-Int human rogue will work very well.
Prof. Pacali
07-23-07, 09:32 AM Here's my take, having played a Rogue in LG for two years. Decide what niche besides trapfinding you want to fill. You can be the party's face for when there is no Bard/Marshall if you max out Diplomacy and Sense Motive. You can fill in for the arcane caster if you max out UMD and pack a few wands. You can be a scout by maxing hide, move silently, listen and spot. (After typing that sentence, I really hope that if 4.0 ever comes out they use the SECR's consolidated skill rules. If a rogue only had to invest in one skill, Stealth, which covered hide, move silently, and sleight of hand, our jobs as rogues would be much easier.) If you have decent hide and move silently scores, insist that the party let you scout, and insist the DM let you take ten. Most authors neglect listen and spot, so you should be fine.

Playing a rogue takes planning, and it takes convincing other players that you have something to contribute. It's not easy, but it's worthwhile when you can do something amazing outside of combat that impresses the party.
Mommy was an Orc
07-23-07, 12:17 PM I think a lot of the problems Rogues have are similar in nature to the problems that Bards and Monks have in LG. i.e. Everyone has seen a badly built/played Rogue. Rogue is a tactical class, just as Monks are. If you're not going to play them ruthlessly by exploiting their strong points, you probably shouldn't be playing one.

Several things:
If you're doing Hide/Move Silently, always take 10, especially if your DM is making you roll multiple times. Rolling is an opportunity for failure, especially if you have +11 or better.

Figure out your way to damage anything. UMD, having a decent Strength, Grave/Golem Strike, Baned Weapons, etc...at high APL, Aid Another is a horrible move as you're just giving them +2 to hit on their best attack - something they shouldn't be missing with in the first place.

Don't multiclass unless you're getting something specific that you need for the build. Pretty much all Rogues should multiclass as the system favors doing such. But don't add a level just because it looks pretty. A Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 can be a perfectly viable build with one set of stats and horrible with another - think about the difference between a Half-Orc with a starting Strength of 18, who levels it and Gauntlets of Ogre Power(26 Strength when raging) vs. a Halfling with a starting Strength of 8.

Ask for assistance from casters. A Rogue Archer 8 with PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Haste, and Greater Invisibility is firing 4 arrows a round, which do 1d8+4d6 each. If you can confirm hits, that's more damage than they're doing with their orbs and you can do it for several rounds. You've gotta be able to hit when they do that for you, though.

Exploit options in the rules that are there - so you can't sneak attack the Hill Giant Skeleton wielding a Greatclub. You can throw a net on him while fighting defensively, even non-proficient. What's he going to do to get out of the Net? Can you throw Bolas? Flasks of Acid? Quickdraw is a really strong feat for just that reason.
Painlord
07-23-07, 12:32 PM Yar. YAR!!!

Awesome...thanks so much for all the great replies. I think, from the replies above, that it is possible to be a useful rogue in LG...but it's actually a living, breathing, real challenge to make him/her useful in the typical LG campaign.

It requires real Int and real cunning, guile, and trickery to make one useful...and so I shall aspire.

I'll rogue it up. I accept the challenge. I am Painlord.

-Painlord
UMiskatonic
07-23-07, 02:24 PM Good for you.

You're right, it is more difficult that saying "I attack, I attack, I attack again". But, it's that much more worth it when you get it right.
Banor
07-23-07, 02:32 PM Yea that is the major problem, its far more challenging and complicated for a lesser result :( Now is it more fun ? Probably so go for it if you want to :)
myshkingfh
07-23-07, 02:34 PM it is more difficult that saying "I attack, I attack, I attack again".

Hey, if all you like doing is rolling dice, go play Parcheesi! ;)
Sir_Wulf
07-23-07, 05:26 PM Rogues CAN make a huge difference, when the party works with the rogue to ensure that their efforts complement the rogue, rather than work against her.

I just ran a scenario where the contrast between the party's experience and what we faced when I played it was quite dramatic.

My group had no rogue, so we smashed our way in through the iron front door, then faced a legion of foes already buffed and in good fighting positions.

In the game I just ran, the rogue picked the lock, then sniped sentries with her crossbow, allowing the party to "jump" the villains and cut them down. Their stealth gave them a great advantage.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Painlord 07-20-07, 06:26 PM	Hey-- I'm still trying to learn this silly hobby. I've been reading the boards and have heard contradictory things about Rogues (aka rouges). It seems, based on the past 2 years of LG mods, that Rogues' main abilities de-trapping, spotting, sneaking, lockpicking are all either: 1) done better or done at least equally as well by other classes or 2) pretty much not in high demand as the mod writers don't regularly include ways for the unique Rogue skills to be useful. And it seems (but then again, I am new and unlearned) that Rogues are, for the most part, pretty useless in actually doing damage in combat, aside from the occasional sneak attack and wutnot. It seems that half the posts I read have the rogue as nothing more than a buffer (using various magical devices), but unable to do anything to really affect the creatures that currently infest high level APLs. Again, I don't know if this is true...perhaps you would enlighten me as I'm thinking about starting up a pure rogue and wonder if it's worth the time and investment. 1) Is building an LG rogue going to be worth it if the current trend of LG mods continues as it is? 2) Should I even think about bothering with disable device/tumble/balance/climb or just concentrate on Use Magical Device/Decipher Script? 3) If I actually wanted to deal damage as a rogue outside of sneak attack, how would I construct a rogue to do such? Two weapon fighting? Archering? 3a) What kind of rogue specialty has the highest chance of put the hurt on the bad guys? Mage-Rogue? Archer-Rogue? Sneak-Rogue? Yeah...a lot of questions I have....but it seems so many of youse have so many answers. Thanks in advance, -Painlord
bitznarf 07-20-07, 07:41 PM	I recomend you take a look at the Rogue/Wizard/Unseen Seer build in the 597 compilation.
control freak 07-20-07, 08:10 PM	rogues have 3 real nerfs on them 1: the way mods are written (already talked about) 2: the best way to deal damage is sneak attack, what % of grey hawk is undead/immune to crits now? 3: alignment if they let alignment run wild and you could be evil assasin would be a fine class and would let them do more combat rogueish stuff if they changed any of these 3 up in favor of rogues it would be alot better (i started my first time with a rogue till it reached level 3 and i had disarmed a total of 1 trap over like 9-10 mods) and then got killed playing down by a full attack from a sea cat (from 25 to -11 in 1 round after smashing it for like 30) i started to realize greyhawk doesnt have the tipical iconic party its iconic party is cleirc, druid, wiz, sorc, BDF (attacker), BDF(defender) thats much more like it beause they RUINED the whole trap thing (make traps more important or remove non evil things other wise BAD things happen to rogues)
_metz_ 07-20-07, 08:52 PM	Having said all of that, rogues are really cool. Play what you want, just take care to make a good build, as rogues DO suffer a bit, but can make up for it if the character is interesting. TWF rogues are usually the best bet, or Rogues with caster levels. (which whilst effective I am not a big fan of.) Skull clan Hunters work reasonably well...
Banor 07-20-07, 09:08 PM	The thing with the rogue is that you arent brigning a lot to the party. A single level of Rogue get you trapfinding; a Rogue 10 or anyclass with a good search check and a rogue dip are equally good to get trap. Being sneaky can be achived by anyone who actually want to spend skill point into Hide, Move silently etc... or best anyone that can use a wand of invisibility. UMD ? While rogues are one of the few classes that got UMD as a class skill, a simple level of a spellcasting class will get you a much more reliable version of UMD :) So all a rogue is left with is Sneak attack. Its not a bad way to do damage especially with 2 weapon fighting, but its very unreliable. Undead notably bring your damage output to oblivion. You need to get flanking which sometime get you in trouble with dangerous positioning. If you compare to what a 2handed power attacker can bring into combat, you are years behind. That why the USS is so popular, it improve your overall utility with some low level spell, and greatly improve the reliability of your sneak attack. Not mention that multiple books brought a lots of spells that basically do what rogues used to be the best at (mobility, trapfinding, moving silently etc..)
SgtHulka 07-20-07, 09:34 PM	I play a rogue, which, admittedly is only 7th level and has already died once. A couple of years I would have agreed with everything you said. This year, however, I'm seeing a difference. I'm seeing a lot more sneak-able enemies. And I'm seeing more traps that can't be disarmed by exploding celestial monkeys. Rogues have unique challenges. Since their primary role is trapfinder, they often find themselves alone in the dark with a lockpick between their teeth while everyone else his hiding around the corner. It's a dangerous job, and they don't have enough hit points to screw up more than two or three times. As for sneak attacking, if you go straight rogue that's pretty much your schtick. And then it becomes a matter of how you want to pursue that schtick. I've seen a halfling rogue with improved initiative and quickdraw and a bandolier full of alchemists fire that was quite amusing. But, generally, the typical way to get in your sneak attacks is to tumble into a flanking position. That's why two-weapon fighting rogues are generally favored...it effectively doubles your flanking sneak attack. By and large, rogues are challenging, but extremely fun characters to play. They probably aren't as welcome at a typical table as, say, a cleric or a big dumb fighter, but they're not the pariahs they once were, imho. When you conceive your character, think of the following: 1) How are you going to sneak attack? Surprise/High initiative? Hide/Invisibility? Flanking? Feinting? 2) How are you going to survive melee? High armor class? High hit points? By attacking from range? Staggering strike? Elusive target? 3) How are you going to survive grappling? Escape artist? Ring of freedom of movement? Dimension door? Improved grapple? 4) How are you going to contribute in fights with non-sneakable enemies? Consumables and/or Use Magic Device? Magically make them sneakable via spells or prestige class features? Enchantments to weapons? Aid another? 5) How are you going to keep your non- reflex saves high? Racial bonuses? High con? Multi-classing?
JamesMaissen 07-20-07, 09:48 PM	Hey-- I'm still trying to learn this silly hobby. I've been reading the boards and have heard contradictory things about Rogues (aka rouges). First of all there is 'perception' in LG. This can differ from reality, though many assume otherwise. Many things can be perceived as useless or broken without being either. Rogues can offer many things to a group just like any other class. Traps: when these come up a rogue shines. Just like a turning focused cleric when undead show up, a rogue makes such things much easier. If traps don't show up a lot then it will seem less useful.. just like a turning cleric when undead don't show. Scouting: most people are not used to this. And that's not just the other players, but the judge and even authors. It takes a bit of work to get a party used to it, sometimes several times for judges to get used to parties utilizing it and many times to get around authors not being used to it. It is quite worthwhile doing however as knowledge is power and that only scales in importance as levels increase. Other skills: I like to think of one of the rogue's special abilities as their increased number of skills/level. Pick skills to be competent in, to be good in, and to be astoundingly good in. Treat them like you would feats for a fighter.. they are strongly important for you. Sneak attack: this is not your only role in combat, rather it gives you a way to compare to a fighter in certain situations. You are strong here, but should not be helpless when you cannot do it. Just like a wizard would be wrong to throw up his hands helpless against a golem (say by only using spells with SR yes) so too should a rogue have plans for helping out against things they can't sneak in combat. Rogue is a valid archetype. In some places it needs a bit of work by the player to fit into LG. If you play them like a fighter then you will be sorry in the long run. -James
ShinAkuma2 07-20-07, 10:02 PM	The biggest argument against Rogues is that other classes (ie spellcasters) can more or less do whatever it is the Rogue can do. Locks can be opened, heights can be scaled, traps can be bypassed. My response is: Maybe we might want to do these things without blowing spells. This is why we have Rogues. I think a well-made Rogue is great to have, because a party will kick itself in the ass when the caster says he "didn't prep that today".
Sieylianna 07-21-07, 11:04 AM	I think the swashbuckler/rogue daring outlaw with TWF is another way to have an effective rogue PC, if you don't want to become a spellcaster. Ed
myshkingfh 07-21-07, 12:17 PM	My main character is a rogue, and I want to say that smart rogues are very fun to play. I started with a 16 intelligence and 44 skill points at first level. That's about three times the skill points than an int punting fighter will have in his whole career, and I got them at first level. People like to place a lot of value on in-combat prowess (not that rogues can't perform well there) but there are other parts of the game where rogues can really shine. It's fun to always get a skill check. It's fun when you can jump further than the fighter, even though he has 18str and you have 8. A 16 int rogue can max out 11 skills. That means he can be a strong party face even with a low cha, or an excellent spotter/listener even with a low wis. In combat, a high int rogue can use daring outlaw and swashbuckler to have as big a damage bonus as a high str fighter (though, sadly, no power attack). Plus, that same high int rogue can easily qualify for unseen seer and also develop as a back-up arcanist. A rogue/swashbuckler can be almost as powerful in melee as a fighter (and then why not take dervish?); a rogue/uss can be almost as powerful in magic as a straight wizard. In either case, the rogue keeps almost all the benefits of a straight rogue.
jstorrie 07-21-07, 12:28 PM	I think the swashbuckler/rogue daring outlaw with TWF is another way to have an effective rogue PC, if you don't want to become a spellcaster. Or Finesse-Power Attacking a Courtblade with Weapon Spec/Mastery... Rogue 10 is fine, though. Just don't fall into the trap of playing with an 8 Strength and a 10 Con so that you can max your Dex. If you're a frontline melee character, you should have 14s in your physicals, even if that means having 14-16 or even 14-14 for your Int and Dex. Scouting works, and is powerful, but only if your party plays along. Trapfinding is more important than stealth if it comes down to choosing one or the other. UMD is critical.
jimmy_dowdall 07-21-07, 02:31 PM	rogues rock ;)
UMiskatonic 07-21-07, 02:50 PM	I started in year two with a rogue, and was able to rebuild her twice. Learned a lot in the process of getting her up to 14th level. If I were to build a new LG rogue, I'd do the following: 1) Decide how I'm going to fight. Will I be an archer, a spring attacker, a TWFighter? 2) Let the fighting style determine feat selection. This is where you would decide on multi-classing ideas, like a level of fighter, ranger, barbarian, or swashbuckler. 3) Let the character build determine stat placement. If you're basically a trapfinder, you need intelligence, and can get by with a 10 Dex. If you're going to be a diplomat, you might want a 12 CHA. I would make sure to have a 14 CON no matter what happens. 4) Finally, go forth and decide on your skills. Generally, as a straight rogue, you'll succeed most of the time. Taking a feat like Skill Focus (Hide) is just crippling your ability to fight, when you could have instead spent 50 gold on MW hiding tools.
Frumpkis 07-21-07, 03:27 PM	Another alternative option is to go with a scout/ranger archer build. You get many of the same benefits towards fulfilling the "rogue" roles - trapfinding (scouts get disable device as a class skill, thanks to the errata) and scouting - while also being strong in combat. As an archer, you don't have to worry about manouvering into (possibly vulnerable) flanking positions just to get your sneak attack in.
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-22-07, 05:13 PM	Rogues may seem like they are not essential, but that is always in retrospect (after the module is over!). No self-respecting party would "leave home" without considering the need for a Rogue. I always hear about how arcane casters can do this or that better than other classes... but how many actually do? If there is a Rogue in the party, and it comes to a choice between memorizing "spider climb" or "damage spell X", what would you go for? Exactly... don't listen to them! I've played a number of rogues through the years and I have always had the most fun and success with "sniper" Rogue builds. Making use of feats like "Able Sniper" [RotW], "Crossbow Sniper" [PH2, very rogue friendly] and later "Woodland Archer" [RotW]. This lets you fill a powerful tactical roll in combat encounters, different from the typical "melee sneak-attack" everyone goes for... not forgetting of course, you can close to melee for a sneak-attack on a vulnerable opponent if you need to.
Sieylianna 07-22-07, 08:57 PM	I always hear about how arcane casters can do this or that better than other classes... but how many actually do? I don't have anything against rogues, having a couple of them in my stable of LG characters, but I can't think of the last time that I said "This module would have been easier with a rogue". On the other hand, most recently last weekend, when we don't have an arcane type, someone will comment on how much easier it would have been with a wizard/sorcerer. Ed
jstorrie 07-22-07, 09:08 PM	The different Rogue builds all offer different advantages. If you want to have a solution for every non-social situation, and a variety of options in combat, pick Unseen Seer and/or Arcane Trickster. If you want to rule the school in social situations, there are a number of Charisma-focused builds, varying from straight Rogue to Shadowbane Inquisitor types. If you want to be a combat powerhouse, the Fighter/Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw builds and a variety of part-Rogue or part-Scout archers are great. If you'd like to be competent across the board without over-specializating, a 16-Int human rogue will work very well.
Prof. Pacali 07-23-07, 09:32 AM	Here's my take, having played a Rogue in LG for two years. Decide what niche besides trapfinding you want to fill. You can be the party's face for when there is no Bard/Marshall if you max out Diplomacy and Sense Motive. You can fill in for the arcane caster if you max out UMD and pack a few wands. You can be a scout by maxing hide, move silently, listen and spot. (After typing that sentence, I really hope that if 4.0 ever comes out they use the SECR's consolidated skill rules. If a rogue only had to invest in one skill, Stealth, which covered hide, move silently, and sleight of hand, our jobs as rogues would be much easier.) If you have decent hide and move silently scores, insist that the party let you scout, and insist the DM let you take ten. Most authors neglect listen and spot, so you should be fine. Playing a rogue takes planning, and it takes convincing other players that you have something to contribute. It's not easy, but it's worthwhile when you can do something amazing outside of combat that impresses the party.
Mommy was an Orc 07-23-07, 12:17 PM	I think a lot of the problems Rogues have are similar in nature to the problems that Bards and Monks have in LG. i.e. Everyone has seen a badly built/played Rogue. Rogue is a tactical class, just as Monks are. If you're not going to play them ruthlessly by exploiting their strong points, you probably shouldn't be playing one. Several things: If you're doing Hide/Move Silently, always take 10, especially if your DM is making you roll multiple times. Rolling is an opportunity for failure, especially if you have +11 or better. Figure out your way to damage anything. UMD, having a decent Strength, Grave/Golem Strike, Baned Weapons, etc...at high APL, Aid Another is a horrible move as you're just giving them +2 to hit on their best attack - something they shouldn't be missing with in the first place. Don't multiclass unless you're getting something specific that you need for the build. Pretty much all Rogues should multiclass as the system favors doing such. But don't add a level just because it looks pretty. A Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 can be a perfectly viable build with one set of stats and horrible with another - think about the difference between a Half-Orc with a starting Strength of 18, who levels it and Gauntlets of Ogre Power(26 Strength when raging) vs. a Halfling with a starting Strength of 8. Ask for assistance from casters. A Rogue Archer 8 with PBS, Rapid Shot, Precise Shot, Haste, and Greater Invisibility is firing 4 arrows a round, which do 1d8+4d6 each. If you can confirm hits, that's more damage than they're doing with their orbs and you can do it for several rounds. You've gotta be able to hit when they do that for you, though. Exploit options in the rules that are there - so you can't sneak attack the Hill Giant Skeleton wielding a Greatclub. You can throw a net on him while fighting defensively, even non-proficient. What's he going to do to get out of the Net? Can you throw Bolas? Flasks of Acid? Quickdraw is a really strong feat for just that reason.
Painlord 07-23-07, 12:32 PM	Yar. YAR!!! Awesome...thanks so much for all the great replies. I think, from the replies above, that it is possible to be a useful rogue in LG...but it's actually a living, breathing, real challenge to make him/her useful in the typical LG campaign. It requires real Int and real cunning, guile, and trickery to make one useful...and so I shall aspire. I'll rogue it up. I accept the challenge. I am Painlord. -Painlord
UMiskatonic 07-23-07, 02:24 PM	Good for you. You're right, it is more difficult that saying "I attack, I attack, I attack again". But, it's that much more worth it when you get it right.
Banor 07-23-07, 02:32 PM	Yea that is the major problem, its far more challenging and complicated for a lesser result :( Now is it more fun ? Probably so go for it if you want to :)
myshkingfh 07-23-07, 02:34 PM	it is more difficult that saying "I attack, I attack, I attack again". Hey, if all you like doing is rolling dice, go play Parcheesi! ;)
Sir_Wulf 07-23-07, 05:26 PM	Rogues CAN make a huge difference, when the party works with the rogue to ensure that their efforts complement the rogue, rather than work against her. I just ran a scenario where the contrast between the party's experience and what we faced when I played it was quite dramatic. My group had no rogue, so we smashed our way in through the iron front door, then faced a legion of foes already buffed and in good fighting positions. In the game I just ran, the rogue picked the lock, then sniped sentries with her crossbow, allowing the party to "jump" the villains and cut them down. Their stealth gave them a great advantage.