Rouge/Fighter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Rouge/Fighter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dademan
04-21-07, 10:26 PM Hey, I just went through my first LG module today. I know that its still a bit out of the way, but I have a question:

I have a halfling Rouge. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to take a level of Fighter so I can get the boost in HP, and then the bonus feat: Weapon Finnese(since Fighter 1 give +1bab). I would take this 2nd level (since my strength is only 11...Dex is 17).

So, what are your thoughts?
_metz_
04-21-07, 11:25 PM Well making a fighter of the colour rouge wouldn't be that hard, you just need some dye.

Didn't know halflings came rouge automatically though.

(trying to not be a git, but its ROGUE not ROUGE lol its a pet hate.)

being serious though, take a level of Swashbuckler, more skills, automatic weapon finesse, and as a ROGUE it just suits better.
jstorrie
04-21-07, 11:29 PM No, no, he means a rouge fighter, metz. Scarlet Corsair.
Eric Anondson
04-22-07, 12:05 AM :pile:
Yeah, wasn't there that Red Avenger prestige class in Sword and Fist? :rimshot:
_metz_
04-22-07, 12:22 AM Hey my character is taking scarlet corsair next level.

that'll make him 7 rogue/1 dread pirate/1 scarlet corsair.

So I will have a Rouge Rogue Pirate!!!
dademan
04-22-07, 01:09 AM Sorry for the misspelling of Rogue. Swashbuckler does sound like it would fit my chara a bit better than Fighter, but seeing as I do not own Complete Warrior, that may be a problem (I am still working on buying all three main guides, still need DMG).
jstorrie
04-22-07, 01:43 AM Which books do you have at your disposal? Optimally you'd want Complete Warrior and Complete Scoundrel, to do a Daring Outlaw build, but there's more than one way to skin this cat. What can you use?
_metz_
04-22-07, 03:24 AM Essentially to help with a build we need the following:

1. A full stat line.

Str:
Dex:
Con:
Int:
Wis:
Cha:

2. Race

3. Existing feats

4. What you plan on doing with the character (party role, background, etc.)
dademan
04-22-07, 10:09 AM Alrighty, here are my stats:

Level 1:

Str: 11(0)
Dex: 17(3)
Con: 12(1)
Int: 12(1)
Wis: 12(1)
Cha: 11(0)
(This is after my adjustments for race)

Race: Halfling

Feat(s): Improved Initiative

I was planning on being able to just rogue it up. I would like to turn Shadow Dancer if I am able to later on. I imagine my guy being able to, while the tank is in combat, sneak around/hide, to pull off a sneak attack. But of course, I have my max ranks in Disable Device too, for when there is a trap.

as for books, I can get any of the books, really, but all I have right now is the MM and PH. I was planning on getting the DMG today.
_metz_
04-22-07, 11:10 AM Ok you are really low on hitpoints, so I suggest three levels of swashbuckler, good skill points, d10 hit die, full bab, weapon finesse, and int to damage with your sneak.

The stats are a little off, but hey, nothing we can do about that.

I would suggest going for temple raider as you have wisdom, and buying a con amulet and headband of int QUICKLY.

All stat bumps to dex.

I would consider retraining improved initiative to something else, PrC prereq probably, consult open feats for complete scoundrel etc.

I would go something like this:

Rogue 1: Improved Initiative (already taken)
Swash 1: Retrain Improved initiative to tactile trapsmith??? Weapon Finesse
Rogue 2: Evasion (not sure what feat to take here)
Rogue 3: More BaB and Sneakiness +1 Dex
Swash 2: Grace
Swash 3: Insightful Strike (Feat???)
Temple Raider: etc etc

With low int and high dex tactile trapsmith is a MUST (swaps dex for int for search and disable device)

Ask you triad about regional temple raider access, or a special mod for it if necessary, but when I see a rogue with wisdom, thats what I envision.

Not sure about the feat choices for 3rd and 6th. Are you a meleee rogue, or a ranged one?

If you are a melee rogue, scarlett cosair might be a good option, for free action feints, with two levels of ranger instead of swash 2 and 3
Mommy was an Orc
04-22-07, 11:48 AM I would suggest going for temple raider as you have wisdom

I have to disagree with that one - Temple Raider is one of those "Rogue 5/Cleric 5 PrCs" - except you get better spells, 2 domains immediately and more skill points if you just start taking Cleric levels instead. Especially given Temple Raider doesn't have Grave Strike as a spell known.

As you've only played this character once, I'd strongly consider bringing in his twin brother with Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8. Yes, you lose the AR, but you'll notice the difference playing 120 or so ARs...the extra Con will help you survive melee and the extra skill point per level you can use to advance a Charisma skill to compensate(Bluff, Sense Motive, or Diplomacy are all good choices) - and you'll be better at trapfinding.
dademan
04-22-07, 03:20 PM Well, I'll try to get some more books, since Swash seems like a good choice. My birthday is Thursday, so I may ask my parents for em >.>

Thanks for the input, and having the paticence to put up with a noob.:rolleyes:
thunderspirit
04-22-07, 10:56 PM Well, I'll try to get some more books, since Swash seems like a good choice. My birthday is Thursday, so I may ask my parents for em >.>

Thanks for the input, and having the paticence to put up with a noob.:rolleyes:
Swashbuckler is an excellent fit with a Rogue build that's looking for effectiveness in combat. Complete Warrior is a must-have here, and it's JMSO that Complete Scoundrel (which contains the Daring Outlaw feat, allowing your PC's Rogue and Swash levels to stack when calculating sneak attack dice and some Swash class abilities) shouldn't be far behind -- Daring Outlaw is just that good. You can make it pretty far with this PC using just those two books and your PHB. (Complete Adventurer has some good feats for a combat Rogue too, but you can survive without it for now.) Hit points will be a weakness, and if you want to take advantage of evasion and many Rogue skills, your AC will likely be as well. Always remember you can't take the punishment the typical iconic Fighter can.

Beyond this, I can't add much to what _metz_ and MwaO have already contributed to your initial question -- they're both much more adept than I at optimization -- but this board should be a resource any "noob" comes to for help. and you'll find most people here are genuinely interested in helping you flesh out your concept in the best mechanical way.

Besides, we were all noobs once upon a time. ;)
Hariman
04-22-07, 11:21 PM Swashbuckler is an excellent fit with a Rogue build that's looking for effectiveness in combat. Complete Warrior is a must-have here, and it's JMSO that Complete Scoundrel (which contains the Daring Outlaw feat, allowing your PC's Rogue and Swash levels to stack when calculating sneak attack dice and some Swash class abilities) shouldn't be far behind -- Daring Outlaw is just that good. You can make it pretty far with this PC using just those two books and your PHB. (Complete Adventurer has some good feats for a combat Rogue too, but you can survive without it for now.) Hit points will be a weakness, and if you want to take advantage of evasion and many Rogue skills, your AC will likely be as well. Always remember you can't take the punishment the typical iconic Fighter can.

Beyond this, I can't add much to what _metz_ and MwaO have already contributed to your initial question -- they're both much more adept than I at optimization -- but this board should be a resource any "noob" comes to for help. and you'll find most people here are genuinely interested in helping you flesh out your concept in the best mechanical way.

Besides, we were all noobs once upon a time. ;)

I've got a level one Swashbuckler that I might give Daring Outlaw/Rogue Levels. He TWFs using improved Shield Bash for the extra AC.

Using Daring Outlaw is so good because you can get a character with full rogue SA progression, and +14 BAB at 15th level!! (Swash3, then Rogue3, then Swash9) AND you add your INT bonus to damage.

Weapon Damage +8d6 +5 (INT) against crittables is nothing to sneeze at.
ithardin
04-23-07, 05:27 PM What we are all basically trying to do is have a Rogue who is a decent enough fighter to be helpful in combat and yet still be adept enough at the Rogue skills so as not to get everyone killed when a trap is triggered/bungled/etc.

My two copper of advice is to never underestimate the power of consumables and versatility. Some UMD and some scrolls/wands/potions can make a Rogue into just about whatever he/she wants to be.
Landale
04-24-07, 12:12 AM Well I have a pretty fun Rogue/Fighter that I played through RHoD. I was even called upon to tank a bit, and did so effectively.

Race: Halfling
Base stats:
Str 10
Dex 18 (w/o +2 gloves of dex)
Con 14
Int 14 (originally 12)
Wis 12
Cha 8 (using a circlet of persuasion for cha-skills)

Levels:
1 Rogue - Two-Weapon Fighting
2 Rogue
3 Rogue - Weapon Finesse
4 Rogue - Boost Int
5 Rogue
6 Fighter - Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
7 Rogue
8 Rogue - Boost int
9 Rogue - Improved Combat Expertise
10 Rogue

AC: 24, 32 when expertising, 35 if fighting defensively as well

Skills (near-max if not max): Bluff, Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride (fighter level - 3 ranks), Search, Spot, Tumble.

I really like this build because I can mesh decent damage vs. living things with a decent AC. If I want even more front-line survivability, I'll pull out a shield and up my AC even more, which works well with Improved Feint if I don't have a flank. I also have access to the animated property for shields, so I can always throw that on my shield for some two-weapon fighting fun with a shield bonus to AC as well =).

Also, I boosted Int to get more skill points, it helps to make up for loss of skill points during the level of fighter.

It's something to consider anyway =).
Timlagor
04-24-07, 01:23 PM Why don't you have ITWF?
I'd drop Improved Feint from that build in a heartbeat and I'm dubious about the value of ICE at that point when Staggering Strike is available.
Landale
04-24-07, 03:25 PM Why don't you have ITWF?
I'd drop Improved Feint from that build in a heartbeat and I'm dubious about the value of ICE at that point when Staggering Strike is available.

I considered ITWF, but I'm probably going to go into the Dread Commando PrC, and at level 12 I'm taking my level of fighter to get the prereqs for it. Also, Improved Feint is awesome, there's no way I'm getting rid of that.

As for ICE, if I didn't have it, I would have died at several points during the last part of Red Hand (I leveled at the end of part 4 and got it). My DM was very upset that I took it. Since CE only lets you take 5 away from your BAB for AC, I felt that having the extra 2 (now 3) was important. If I'm going to be a front-line rogue, like I want to be, defense is my primary concern, not offense, which I have plenty of in the form of sneak attack.
Japangirl
04-24-07, 05:53 PM I considered ITWF, but I'm probably going to go into the Dread Commando PrC, and at level 12 I'm taking my level of fighter to get the prereqs for it. Also, Improved Feint is awesome, there's no way I'm getting rid of that.

As for ICE, if I didn't have it, I would have died at several points during the last part of Red Hand (I leveled at the end of part 4 and got it). My DM was very upset that I took it. Since CE only lets you take 5 away from your BAB for AC, I felt that having the extra 2 (now 3) was important. If I'm going to be a front-line rogue, like I want to be, defense is my primary concern, not offense, which I have plenty of in the form of sneak attack.

Actually, as a front-line rogue your primary concern should be offense because things get really really hard to hit. Defense is definitely a concern, but higher AC just doesn't cut it after awhile. Fighting defensively with +4 cover bonus gives me a 37 AC at APL 14/16 with only +17ish to hit on my primaries (against flat-footed ACs, I might add), and it's not nearly high enough AC or hit bonus. Start looking for other defensive items that aren't just AC and maybe retrain into something featwise that is less defensive as well, because as a rogue you do not have the AC or HP to tank really high APLs but you do have the damage to kill things good.
Landale
04-24-07, 10:36 PM Then we should perhaps agree to disagree. I'm rather enjoying my rogue right now and don't see a reason to train out of anything. If I start running into things that aren't dragons that can easily hit me, then that'll be the time to train out.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dademan 04-21-07, 10:26 PM	Hey, I just went through my first LG module today. I know that its still a bit out of the way, but I have a question: I have a halfling Rouge. I was wondering if it would be a good idea to take a level of Fighter so I can get the boost in HP, and then the bonus feat: Weapon Finnese(since Fighter 1 give +1bab). I would take this 2nd level (since my strength is only 11...Dex is 17). So, what are your thoughts?
_metz_ 04-21-07, 11:25 PM	Well making a fighter of the colour rouge wouldn't be that hard, you just need some dye. Didn't know halflings came rouge automatically though. (trying to not be a git, but its ROGUE not ROUGE lol its a pet hate.) being serious though, take a level of Swashbuckler, more skills, automatic weapon finesse, and as a ROGUE it just suits better.
jstorrie 04-21-07, 11:29 PM	No, no, he means a rouge fighter, metz. Scarlet Corsair.
Eric Anondson 04-22-07, 12:05 AM	:pile: Yeah, wasn't there that Red Avenger prestige class in Sword and Fist? :rimshot:
_metz_ 04-22-07, 12:22 AM	Hey my character is taking scarlet corsair next level. that'll make him 7 rogue/1 dread pirate/1 scarlet corsair. So I will have a Rouge Rogue Pirate!!!
dademan 04-22-07, 01:09 AM	Sorry for the misspelling of Rogue. Swashbuckler does sound like it would fit my chara a bit better than Fighter, but seeing as I do not own Complete Warrior, that may be a problem (I am still working on buying all three main guides, still need DMG).
jstorrie 04-22-07, 01:43 AM	Which books do you have at your disposal? Optimally you'd want Complete Warrior and Complete Scoundrel, to do a Daring Outlaw build, but there's more than one way to skin this cat. What can you use?
_metz_ 04-22-07, 03:24 AM	Essentially to help with a build we need the following: 1. A full stat line. Str: Dex: Con: Int: Wis: Cha: 2. Race 3. Existing feats 4. What you plan on doing with the character (party role, background, etc.)
dademan 04-22-07, 10:09 AM	Alrighty, here are my stats: Level 1: Str: 11(0) Dex: 17(3) Con: 12(1) Int: 12(1) Wis: 12(1) Cha: 11(0) (This is after my adjustments for race) Race: Halfling Feat(s): Improved Initiative I was planning on being able to just rogue it up. I would like to turn Shadow Dancer if I am able to later on. I imagine my guy being able to, while the tank is in combat, sneak around/hide, to pull off a sneak attack. But of course, I have my max ranks in Disable Device too, for when there is a trap. as for books, I can get any of the books, really, but all I have right now is the MM and PH. I was planning on getting the DMG today.
_metz_ 04-22-07, 11:10 AM	Ok you are really low on hitpoints, so I suggest three levels of swashbuckler, good skill points, d10 hit die, full bab, weapon finesse, and int to damage with your sneak. The stats are a little off, but hey, nothing we can do about that. I would suggest going for temple raider as you have wisdom, and buying a con amulet and headband of int QUICKLY. All stat bumps to dex. I would consider retraining improved initiative to something else, PrC prereq probably, consult open feats for complete scoundrel etc. I would go something like this: Rogue 1: Improved Initiative (already taken) Swash 1: Retrain Improved initiative to tactile trapsmith??? Weapon Finesse Rogue 2: Evasion (not sure what feat to take here) Rogue 3: More BaB and Sneakiness +1 Dex Swash 2: Grace Swash 3: Insightful Strike (Feat???) Temple Raider: etc etc With low int and high dex tactile trapsmith is a MUST (swaps dex for int for search and disable device) Ask you triad about regional temple raider access, or a special mod for it if necessary, but when I see a rogue with wisdom, thats what I envision. Not sure about the feat choices for 3rd and 6th. Are you a meleee rogue, or a ranged one? If you are a melee rogue, scarlett cosair might be a good option, for free action feints, with two levels of ranger instead of swash 2 and 3
Mommy was an Orc 04-22-07, 11:48 AM	I would suggest going for temple raider as you have wisdom I have to disagree with that one - Temple Raider is one of those "Rogue 5/Cleric 5 PrCs" - except you get better spells, 2 domains immediately and more skill points if you just start taking Cleric levels instead. Especially given Temple Raider doesn't have Grave Strike as a spell known. As you've only played this character once, I'd strongly consider bringing in his twin brother with Str 10, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 12, Cha 8. Yes, you lose the AR, but you'll notice the difference playing 120 or so ARs...the extra Con will help you survive melee and the extra skill point per level you can use to advance a Charisma skill to compensate(Bluff, Sense Motive, or Diplomacy are all good choices) - and you'll be better at trapfinding.
dademan 04-22-07, 03:20 PM	Well, I'll try to get some more books, since Swash seems like a good choice. My birthday is Thursday, so I may ask my parents for em >.> Thanks for the input, and having the paticence to put up with a noob.:rolleyes:
thunderspirit 04-22-07, 10:56 PM	Well, I'll try to get some more books, since Swash seems like a good choice. My birthday is Thursday, so I may ask my parents for em >.> Thanks for the input, and having the paticence to put up with a noob.:rolleyes: Swashbuckler is an excellent fit with a Rogue build that's looking for effectiveness in combat. Complete Warrior is a must-have here, and it's JMSO that Complete Scoundrel (which contains the Daring Outlaw feat, allowing your PC's Rogue and Swash levels to stack when calculating sneak attack dice and some Swash class abilities) shouldn't be far behind -- Daring Outlaw is just that good. You can make it pretty far with this PC using just those two books and your PHB. (Complete Adventurer has some good feats for a combat Rogue too, but you can survive without it for now.) Hit points will be a weakness, and if you want to take advantage of evasion and many Rogue skills, your AC will likely be as well. Always remember you can't take the punishment the typical iconic Fighter can. Beyond this, I can't add much to what _metz_ and MwaO have already contributed to your initial question -- they're both much more adept than I at optimization -- but this board should be a resource any "noob" comes to for help. and you'll find most people here are genuinely interested in helping you flesh out your concept in the best mechanical way. Besides, we were all noobs once upon a time. ;)
Hariman 04-22-07, 11:21 PM	Swashbuckler is an excellent fit with a Rogue build that's looking for effectiveness in combat. Complete Warrior is a must-have here, and it's JMSO that Complete Scoundrel (which contains the Daring Outlaw feat, allowing your PC's Rogue and Swash levels to stack when calculating sneak attack dice and some Swash class abilities) shouldn't be far behind -- Daring Outlaw is just that good. You can make it pretty far with this PC using just those two books and your PHB. (Complete Adventurer has some good feats for a combat Rogue too, but you can survive without it for now.) Hit points will be a weakness, and if you want to take advantage of evasion and many Rogue skills, your AC will likely be as well. Always remember you can't take the punishment the typical iconic Fighter can. Beyond this, I can't add much to what _metz_ and MwaO have already contributed to your initial question -- they're both much more adept than I at optimization -- but this board should be a resource any "noob" comes to for help. and you'll find most people here are genuinely interested in helping you flesh out your concept in the best mechanical way. Besides, we were all noobs once upon a time. ;) I've got a level one Swashbuckler that I might give Daring Outlaw/Rogue Levels. He TWFs using improved Shield Bash for the extra AC. Using Daring Outlaw is so good because you can get a character with full rogue SA progression, and +14 BAB at 15th level!! (Swash3, then Rogue3, then Swash9) AND you add your INT bonus to damage. Weapon Damage +8d6 +5 (INT) against crittables is nothing to sneeze at.
ithardin 04-23-07, 05:27 PM	What we are all basically trying to do is have a Rogue who is a decent enough fighter to be helpful in combat and yet still be adept enough at the Rogue skills so as not to get everyone killed when a trap is triggered/bungled/etc. My two copper of advice is to never underestimate the power of consumables and versatility. Some UMD and some scrolls/wands/potions can make a Rogue into just about whatever he/she wants to be.
Landale 04-24-07, 12:12 AM	Well I have a pretty fun Rogue/Fighter that I played through RHoD. I was even called upon to tank a bit, and did so effectively. Race: Halfling Base stats: Str 10 Dex 18 (w/o +2 gloves of dex) Con 14 Int 14 (originally 12) Wis 12 Cha 8 (using a circlet of persuasion for cha-skills) Levels: 1 Rogue - Two-Weapon Fighting 2 Rogue 3 Rogue - Weapon Finesse 4 Rogue - Boost Int 5 Rogue 6 Fighter - Combat Expertise, Improved Feint 7 Rogue 8 Rogue - Boost int 9 Rogue - Improved Combat Expertise 10 Rogue AC: 24, 32 when expertising, 35 if fighting defensively as well Skills (near-max if not max): Bluff, Disable Device, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Ride (fighter level - 3 ranks), Search, Spot, Tumble. I really like this build because I can mesh decent damage vs. living things with a decent AC. If I want even more front-line survivability, I'll pull out a shield and up my AC even more, which works well with Improved Feint if I don't have a flank. I also have access to the animated property for shields, so I can always throw that on my shield for some two-weapon fighting fun with a shield bonus to AC as well =). Also, I boosted Int to get more skill points, it helps to make up for loss of skill points during the level of fighter. It's something to consider anyway =).
Timlagor 04-24-07, 01:23 PM	Why don't you have ITWF? I'd drop Improved Feint from that build in a heartbeat and I'm dubious about the value of ICE at that point when Staggering Strike is available.
Landale 04-24-07, 03:25 PM	Why don't you have ITWF? I'd drop Improved Feint from that build in a heartbeat and I'm dubious about the value of ICE at that point when Staggering Strike is available. I considered ITWF, but I'm probably going to go into the Dread Commando PrC, and at level 12 I'm taking my level of fighter to get the prereqs for it. Also, Improved Feint is awesome, there's no way I'm getting rid of that. As for ICE, if I didn't have it, I would have died at several points during the last part of Red Hand (I leveled at the end of part 4 and got it). My DM was very upset that I took it. Since CE only lets you take 5 away from your BAB for AC, I felt that having the extra 2 (now 3) was important. If I'm going to be a front-line rogue, like I want to be, defense is my primary concern, not offense, which I have plenty of in the form of sneak attack.
Japangirl 04-24-07, 05:53 PM	I considered ITWF, but I'm probably going to go into the Dread Commando PrC, and at level 12 I'm taking my level of fighter to get the prereqs for it. Also, Improved Feint is awesome, there's no way I'm getting rid of that. As for ICE, if I didn't have it, I would have died at several points during the last part of Red Hand (I leveled at the end of part 4 and got it). My DM was very upset that I took it. Since CE only lets you take 5 away from your BAB for AC, I felt that having the extra 2 (now 3) was important. If I'm going to be a front-line rogue, like I want to be, defense is my primary concern, not offense, which I have plenty of in the form of sneak attack. Actually, as a front-line rogue your primary concern should be offense because things get really really hard to hit. Defense is definitely a concern, but higher AC just doesn't cut it after awhile. Fighting defensively with +4 cover bonus gives me a 37 AC at APL 14/16 with only +17ish to hit on my primaries (against flat-footed ACs, I might add), and it's not nearly high enough AC or hit bonus. Start looking for other defensive items that aren't just AC and maybe retrain into something featwise that is less defensive as well, because as a rogue you do not have the AC or HP to tank really high APLs but you do have the damage to kill things good.
Landale 04-24-07, 10:36 PM	Then we should perhaps agree to disagree. I'm rather enjoying my rogue right now and don't see a reason to train out of anything. If I start running into things that aren't dragons that can easily hit me, then that'll be the time to train out.