Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ancillary 09-08-07, 11:37 PM	I have a tank character that needs to upgrade his +1. I decided on either spellstoring or sacred. I have access to both. I will not be able to afford another upgrade on the weapon for a long time, so which one I pick first will be important. Right now I have no reliable way of getting through DR/good, so that is the main plus of sacred, with being glowy and the extra dice against some things also being good. I myself cannot cast spells, but almost always play with a mystic theurge who is high enough level that they can put a combust (which they have access to, and for people's convenience will do 10d8 fire damage and allows SR) into my weapon for each fight. In this case I would most likely buy a pearl or two to help out, but that is not really relevent to my decision. There may also be a better open spell than combust to put in the spell storing weapon that someone may suggest, which may make my decision easier. So, which would you guys suggest?
CdrcJsn 09-09-07, 01:24 AM	Get both, but put them on separate weapons. If you don't have a special material weapon, it might be a good idea to pick one up now. A silver Sacred morningstar is good for liches/vampires and other undead as well as devils.
Ancillary 09-09-07, 01:38 AM	Unfortunately I have to use a favor to go back to previous ARs and get the +1 so I can only get one right now. I've got a silver morningstar and cold iron heavy pick although something would probably need DR 15 for me to use them at this point. I could only afford one right now anyway, which do you suggest?
UMiskatonic 09-09-07, 01:54 AM	Get the spell storing, and spend 100 more gold on oil of bless weapon.
Ancillary 09-09-07, 02:37 AM	Oil of bless weapon doesn't work for me. I am using a necklace of natural weapons and am not a monk, so I could only use an oil of align fang, and I do not think I will ever get access to one. This makes sacred the cheapest choice for good alignment I have access to.
Sieylianna 09-09-07, 10:08 AM	I myself cannot cast spells, but almost always play with a mystic theurge who is high enough level that they can put a combust (which they have access to, and for people's convenience will do 10d8 fire damage and allows SR) into my weapon for each fight. Spells in spell-storing items used to be at the minimum caster level (which would only be 3d8). Has this changed? Ed
copper_wyrmling 09-09-07, 11:51 AM	Spells in spell-storing items used to be at the minimum caster level (which would only be 3d8). Has this changed? Ed The spellstoring weapon enhancement doesn't state explicitly what CL the stored spells come out at, so there's table variation (between minimum CL, spellcaster's CL, and weapon's CL). There have been several threads on this.
wooti 09-09-07, 07:51 PM	Spells in spell-storing items used to be at the minimum caster level (which would only be 3d8). Has this changed? Ed There is a good old thread about this. My memory of the outcome (at least general consensius) was: The character was casting the the spell thus it was at his/her caster level. There is no support in the rules for minimum caster level. In my oppinion the argument for Item's level wasn't bad but plays very poorly. Anyway this isn't the place to resurface that arguement.
clannagh 09-09-07, 08:14 PM	Non damage spells can be interesting in a spell storing weapon ... store a Hold person from the bard and then coup de grace anyone ? It partly depends where you play. The sacred weapon is a no-brainer in Perrenland where if its not undead then it must by default be an evil outsider for example, but spell storing may be more useful in other regions.
kjenks 09-09-07, 10:43 PM	Spell Storing has a whole lot of table variation. Many judges don't like the fact that the weapon ability says "CL 12th" and they change the caster level, some saying "CL out = CL in" or some other house rule. Unless you enjoy fighting about this with DMs, I think you're better off just upgrading to a +2 weapon.
Hariman 09-10-07, 12:42 AM	Personally, I'd go with Sacred. Especially with the fact that an oil of bless weapon won't work. Spellstoring will be useless if you don't have a caster. And there will likely be some games where the Theurge will be unavailable. Or fire immune enemies. Then again, my main character is weak VS undead.
UMiskatonic 09-10-07, 01:54 AM	Without the oil of bless weapon thing, I'd go with sacred too.
Timlagor 09-10-07, 08:29 AM	Ken- there is nothing in the rules to suggest that the CL required to craft the ability is the CL that all spells come out at. That is just one interpretation. I've been fairly happy putting Touch of Idiocy into a friend's SS Weapon. A Spun-Up (DC 24) Hold Person could be rather fun though ;)
kjenks 09-10-07, 03:00 PM	The DC and caster level are determined by the rules in the DMG, and they have nothing to do with either the original caster or the wielder. "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." The spell's caster level is set by the weapon at CL 12 for most Spell Storing weapons, or CL 15 for a +5 weapon, per the rules for computing the caster level of a weapon: SRD - A === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. === And per the rules for computing the caster level of all magic items: SRD - B === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). === The Spell Storing ability description says, SRD - C === Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. === So we have three rules: A: "The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description." B: "The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself." C: "CL 12th" Put those rules together, A+B+C, and what do they tell you? They tell me that your Touch of Idiocy spell has a caster level of 12 so its duration is 120 minutes. It doesn't matter what the caster level was of the person who put the spell into the weapon; it comes out at CL 12th. And that very first rule tells me that your Hold Person spell is DC 13 or DC 14, depending on whether it's a level 2 or level 3 spell. There's no rule stating that your feats or ability score have anything to do with the DC of a spell that's cast by a Spell Storing weapon so it's hard to see how it could get "spun up" to DC 24. If you've found some rules that contradict these, I'd love to see 'em.
Mithreinmaethor 09-10-07, 04:25 PM	Oil of bless weapon doesn't work for me. I am using a necklace of natural weapons and am not a monk, so I could only use an oil of align fang, and I do not think I will ever get access to one. This makes sacred the cheapest choice for good alignment I have access to. What weapons/attacks do you use with this item ?
RanielK 09-10-07, 06:17 PM	The two most likely enemies you will face in your career (besides humans) are undead and evil outsiders. The best things for these are Sacred + Holy + Bane (Undead) + Bane (Outsider (Evil)). Now, all told, that's expensive. However, sacred is a good start. My wife's archer has Sacred and Holy on her bow. Devils, Demons and undead quake in fear.
jhorred 09-10-07, 07:22 PM	Sacred and cold iron or silver works well. I'd go for that. Some of the outsider types are immune to fire....
Ancillary 09-10-07, 09:33 PM	Yea, I figured fire resistance 20+ or better and spell resistance all make combust not as awesome in the late game, which is where I am. But I think it would be cool because the necklace I have access to is 3 natural weapons. That wil mean it will cost 25,800 to make it either spell storing or sacred, with another bump weighing in at 30K. The 25 I can get to in a couple of mods but I do not know about the next bump. The good thing is that means I can store 3 combusts in it. So if I get a full attack off, my claw, bite, and first punch will all connect for an extra 10d8 damage. If I power attack a little (like 3 or 4) and have haste up so I can swing again with anything that misses, my damage for one round against the poor creature that does not have SR or fire resistance 10+ will be about 250 assuming the AC is about 30. It doesn't set any records but should be great fun. Yugoloths are featured prominently in Gran March though, so getting through DR good is very practical. You guys seem to be leaning towards practical. I would get to be shiny, which is cool. I would be walking around with light around both hands and my mouth. This really is tough which is why I posted :) To answer an earlier question my full attack is: punch/punch/punch/bite/claw/"off-hand" headbutt
Hariman 09-10-07, 11:17 PM	The DC and caster level are determined by the rules in the DMG, and they have nothing to do with either the original caster or the wielder. "For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell." The spell's caster level is set by the weapon at CL 12 for most Spell Storing weapons, or CL 15 for a +5 weapon, per the rules for computing the caster level of a weapon: SRD - A === Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. === And per the rules for computing the caster level of all magic items: SRD - B === • Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). === The Spell Storing ability description says, SRD - C === Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus. === So we have three rules: A: "The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description." B: "The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself." C: "CL 12th" Put those rules together, A+B+C, and what do they tell you? They tell me that your Touch of Idiocy spell has a caster level of 12 so its duration is 120 minutes. It doesn't matter what the caster level was of the person who put the spell into the weapon; it comes out at CL 12th. And that very first rule tells me that your Hold Person spell is DC 13 or DC 14, depending on whether it's a level 2 or level 3 spell. There's no rule stating that your feats or ability score have anything to do with the DC of a spell that's cast by a Spell Storing weapon so it's hard to see how it could get "spun up" to DC 24. If you've found some rules that contradict these, I'd love to see 'em. How do you make the leap from "Weapon is caster level 12" (something which applies against dispel magic and detect magic) and "Caster Level determines the power of the ITEM" to "This weapon increases or decreases the spells cast into it to level 12"? The relevant text to me is "Strong evocation (plus aura of stored spell); CL 12th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, creator must be a caster of at least 12th level; Price +1 bonus." And more specifically "(plus aura of stored spell)", a phrase which denotes a distinction between the aura of the weapon and the aura of the spell within the weapon. Which means, looking at the same text, I see "The caster level of a spell cast into a spell storing weapon is determined by the character casting the spell into the weapon. If a 9th level caster casts combust into a spell storing weapon, then the spell's caster level is 9. If a level 18 caster casts a spell into a spell storing weapon at caster level 18, then the spell emerges at caster level 18. The weapon's caster level of 12 only applies to the weapon, not to spells cast into it." And consider, if the weapon CL did nerf or boost caster CL, then lower level parties and players would swarm to Spell Storing and higher level parties would sell them off because they REDUCE the power of higher level spells. So having the Spell Storing weapon release the spell at the caster level that the spell was originally cast at makes sense, because it keeps the spell storing property relevant from low levels to high levels. Although undoubtedly you forgot to include the relevant passage of "the weapon can immediately cast the spell on that creature if the wielder desires" Personally, I stand by my prior statement of "CL in = CL out" but I'll keep in mind that not all DMs will agree with that.
Ancillary 09-10-07, 11:29 PM	In my area, I have never met someone who did not run in = out. So for the purposes of helping me choose please use that assumption.
Mithreinmaethor 09-11-07, 06:56 AM	In my area, I have never met someone who did not run in = out. So for the purposes of helping me choose please use that assumption. I am surprised you found or were given access to that item since the Amulet of Mighty Fists is the 3.5 version of that item. But no biggie its only15.5 months til it all goes poof anyhow.
Iswald 09-11-07, 10:53 AM	Yea, I figured fire resistance 20+ or better and spell resistance all make combust not as awesome in the late game, which is where I am. But I think it would be cool because the necklace I have access to is 3 natural weapons. <snip> To answer an earlier question my full attack is: punch/punch/punch/bite/claw/"off-hand" headbutt What exactly are you trying to put sacred or spell storing onto? I don't know of any item that would let you combine it with natural attacks except, perhaps, gauntlets. If it's a necklace that gives your unarmed attacks enhancement bonuses, it probably doesn't count as a weapon for weapon upgrades. Even if you can upgrade it as a weapon. I wouldn't think that you could use spell storing on three of your attacks in one round. The spell would be released after the first time you used it, just as normal for a sword used for multiple attacks.
KarmaInferno 09-11-07, 11:55 AM	Necklace of Natural Weapons: The enhancement bonuses on this necklace are applied to attack and damage rolls involving one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons. In addition, any weapon special quality may be applied to this necklace, and the quality then applies to those natural weapons as well. For instance, a +1 throwing returning necklace of natural weapons would apply its enhancement bonus and the throwing and returning special abilities to one or more of the wearer’s natural weapons. So it can be upgraded like any magic weapon. I so wanted this for my druid before he retired, but never found access. The example they give is really, REALLY weird, though. What, do you fire your fist at your enemy like some mecha fighting robot? -karma
Ancillary 09-11-07, 01:09 PM	The example is very wierd, but it does make clear that any weapon enhancements work. There was amulet of mighty fists in 3.0, the necklace is something different, to let monsters have weapon effects too. A much better idea than the ridiculous mouthpick weapons in lords of madness.
solbergb 09-13-07, 08:02 PM	I would take sacred in a heartbeat. Evil outsiders and undead are dangerous and bonuses to fight them and DR/Good penetration with no actions spent can be priceless. Spell storing only helps on the first swing and requires spells to load it and causes arguments about caster levels....bah.
Ancillary 09-13-07, 09:21 PM	Sacred takes a standard action to activate and then works until you turn it off. If I do not have a bite attack all the time, can I turn it in on my "biting" unarmed strike (it says it can be just about anything) in elf form and have it translate into my bite when I get it? How about fingers to claws? Or if I activate it when I have the official nat weapon and don't turn it off will I keep it when I get it back?
kjenks 09-13-07, 11:04 PM	How do you make the leap from "Weapon is caster level 12" (something which applies against dispel magic and detect magic) and "Caster Level determines the power of the ITEM" to "This weapon increases or decreases the spells cast into it to level 12"? That's not a leap. That's what caster level means. What's the caster level of the fear effect from a Mace of Terror? I see "CL 13th." Personally, I stand by my prior statement of "CL in = CL out" but I'll keep in mind that not all DMs will agree with that. I don't see any rule anywhere that supports your statement of "CL in = CL out" for a Spell Storing weapon. If you find one, please tell me. My level 15 sorceress would like to know.
Hariman 09-14-07, 12:39 AM	That's not a leap. That's what caster level means. What's the caster level of the fear effect from a Mace of Terror? I see "CL 13th." I don't see any rule anywhere that supports your statement of "CL in = CL out" for a Spell Storing weapon. If you find one, please tell me. My level 15 sorceress would like to know. I stand by my prior statement because of the balance issues of having the weapon cast the spell. (Although I do agree that the text supports the CL = 12 for spell storing weapons.) A seventh or 8th level character suddenly gets a boost of +5 or +4 to the spell in question, BUT a 16th level character gets a -4 penalty to spells cast into a spell storing weapon. Plus, all of the channeling abilities (Duskblade/Spellsword etc.) are Caster Level In = Caster Level Out, although they are class abilities, and not weapon abilities. And consider, I could pay 25 GP to get a scroll of shocking grasp cast into a weapon at CL 1 and suddenly it's a 5d6 damage spell. (At CL 12, no less.) But you are right, the text supports CL = Weapon CL. So I'll Expect Table Variation if I ever get a spell storing weapon.
Ancillary 09-14-07, 01:14 AM	I think I will go with Sacred. I like spellstoring, but I already have a spellsword with a spell-storing glaive to play with. What tipped it for me is being glowy. I look forward to descibing my character as having holy auras around both of his hands as well as his head. I am still unsure about the natural weapon tranference thing, but since my primary attack is my punch I will not lose out dramatically to table variation with it. The sudden availability of an awesome NONC spell to put in the weapon may change my mind. It will probably be 6 or 7 mods until I get the gold, depending on whether they are 12s or 14s.
paigeoliver 09-14-07, 07:49 AM	The issue of "table variation" with spell storing weapons is greatly overblown. There are a few prominent posters here who are adamant about it not being CL in and CL out, but you aren't very likely to actually run into that at an actual table. Also, no offense meant at anyone, but I have found that gamemasters who take rules literally to the point of ridiculousness usually aren't that fun to play with. I would actually go with spell-storing as it is more versatile. And there are tons of casters at high APLs. If that theurge is the only one you are ever playing with than that means that you likely only play with a very small local pool and thus table variation isn't going to be much of an issue.
JamesMaissen 09-14-07, 01:35 PM	I think I will go with Sacred. I like spellstoring, but I already have a spellsword with a spell-storing glaive to play with. This is certainly the right choice for you in terms of being effective. Now don't get me wrong spell storing is useful and works nicely, but doesn't compare to bypassing DR/good without using a round to apply an oil. That you can't use the oil and have many multiple attacks makes this even more of a sure thing.. along the lines of an archer seeing access to it. -James