Post/Author/DateTime	Post
happosaai 07-10-07, 07:11 PM	Hi all, I was thinking about making a character along these guidelines to be a strong melee damage dealer during the Ruins of Greyhawk core games. The build somewhat focuses on Swift Hunter and the Skirmish + Favored Enemy combo, as well as TWF. I was hoping to get a critique as to the viability of the build, see if I made any mistakes, and see if anyone has other ideas on where to take this concept? Human S 16, D 14, C 13, I 13, W 10, Ch 8 scout 1 - Dodge, Combat Expertise, Skirmish (+1D6), Trapfinding scout 1 / ranger 1 - Track, Fav Enemy (Undead) scout 2 / ranger 1 - WF (Scimitar), Battle Fort +1, Uncanny Dodge scout 3 / ranger 1 - Fast Move +10', Skirmish (+1D6, +1 AC), Trackless Step, Stat Bump Con (14) scout 3 / ranger 2 - TWF Scout 4 / Ranger 2 - Mobility, Swift Hunter, Skirmish (+2D6, +1 AC)*, 2nd Favored Enemy (Constructs)* Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 1 - Dervish Dance 1/Day, Movement Mastery, Slashing Blades, RETRAIN: Dodge to Expeditious Dodge Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 2 - Fast Move + 5', Stat Bump STR (17) Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 3 - Spring Attack, Improved Skirmish, Derv Dance 2/Day Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 4 - Dance of Death Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 5 - Fast Move +10', Derv Dance 3/Day Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 6 - Imp Reaction, Imp Crit (Scimitar), Stat Bump STR (18) Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 7 - Elaborate Parry, Derv Dance 4/Day Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 8 - Fast Move +15' Scout 4 / Ranger 2 / Dervish 9 - Tireless Dance, Derv Dance 5/Day, Imp TWF * = Bonuses after adding the Swift Hunter feat. Starts out using Short Sword and Short Bow, upgrades to Scimitar and Longbow after picking up Ranger. Stays in Chain Shirt, hopefully getting Mithral access sometime in the course of the games.
Banor 07-10-07, 07:17 PM	I think the biggest problem of the build is that your Dervish level don't increase your skirmish and/or favored enemy at all. 1d6/+1 skirmish and 2 Favored enemy is simply not worth it over what you could get with fighter levels
bitznarf 07-10-07, 07:24 PM	He also gets the ability to use skirmish on undead and constructs, something he would not otherwise be able to do. Improved Skirmish may be something to look at though.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-10-07, 07:29 PM	I think the biggest problem of the build is that your Dervish level don't increase your skirmish and/or favored enemy at all. 1d6/+1 skirmish and 2 Favored enemy is simply not worth it over what you could get with fighter levels Actually he'll be at 2d6/+1 for his skirmish. Swift Hunter has ranger+scout stack for both skirmish and favored enemy.
UMiskatonic 07-10-07, 07:41 PM	Take Imp. Skirmish at 9th level. Power attack is no good. If you are using scimitars, then they are treated as light weapons. You cannot power attack with light weapons, so I don't think it's a big help. You won't have a lot of feats, so I think it's important to make them count. Yeah, you could always take out your greatsword or whatever, but you'll usually be better off with the dancing and the impressive magic scimitar than with the MW greatsword. And, you'll still have that longbow, which should do alright for the kinds of enemies you would power attack.
dkay807 07-10-07, 07:57 PM	The build is extremely viable. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. The trick is qualifying for the class and getting all the feats you need. Due simply to the fact that TWF has such high feat requirements, you might want to consider resorting to 2h Power Attack. You need at a bare minimum: Weapon Focus (slashing weapon) Combat Expertise Expeditious Dodge [far better option than Dodge] Mobility Improved Skirmish Swift Hunter Other good feats are: Power Attack or Two-Weapon Fighting Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Greater Two-Weapon Fighting One thing to consider is how long you're willing to wait before becoming a Dervish. Because feats are going to be your critical path and scout 5 grants a bonus feat, I recommend going heavy on scout levels and light on ranger levels, even though it costs you a BAB. Scout also has some nice abilities, such as being able to move without problems in most difficult terrain. First look: Human Scout 6/Ranger 1 nets you 5 feats (one bonus from scout), leaving you 1 feat shy of what you need to complete the core build. You could delay Swift Hunter until 9th level and thus wind up with a Human Scout 6/Ranger 1/Dervish 8 build. However, this will leave you without many core meleeoptions such as Power Attack and TWF. Second look: The minimum Dervish level you need to be able to use Dervish dance in almost every combat reliably is 5 (using the 3 combats a day in your typical LG module notion). However, do you want to be 15th level before you can do that? Is it okay to only Dervish dance during the tough combats where it's really necessary? These are questions you'll have to answer for yourself, but this line of thinking leads into something more along the lines of: Human Scout 6/Ranger 2/Fighter 1/Dervish 6 which grants you two more feats, TWF as a bonus feat and Improved TWF as a Fighter Bonus feat. You might want to consider taking Fighter 2 at 13th level so that you can snag Greater TWF as soon as you qualify, lowering your total possible Dervish levels to 5. With the splashing of fighter levels, it becomes much easier to throw in Power Attack - simply Human Scout 6/Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Dervish 7. You can decide which path works best for you. My parting shot is that Undead and Elementals are in my opinion the best Favored Enemies to take when it comes to Swift Hunter.
dkay807 07-10-07, 07:59 PM	I could be wrong about when that Scout bonus feat is. I don't have my books handy.
happosaai 07-10-07, 08:02 PM	Hmm good point. I forgot that since Scimitar is treated as a light weapon that I wouldn't be able to power attack with them on this build... Any idea where Imp Skirmish is? The feat index says it's in the Complete Adventurer, but I can't find it in there? Also yes, the Swift Hunter feat gives the ability to combine Scout/Ranger levels for improving both Favored Enemy and Skirmish ability. As a 4 Scout / 2 Ranger I would get both abilities as if I were a 6 Scout / 6 Ranger :-) DKay, the Scout gets the bonus feat at 4 actually :-) Thats why I stopped there as it finally finished off my prerequisite feats for Dervish.
dkay807 07-10-07, 08:04 PM	Any idea where Imp Skirmish is? The feat index says it's in the Complete Adventurer, but I can't find it in there? Complete Scoundrel
happosaai 07-10-07, 08:26 PM	Oh I like that fear Imp Skirmish! I'm definitely gonna replace Power Attack with that! Also the 2nd Favored Enemy is changeable... haven't made up my mind yet on what to make it. I was thinking constructs might be in the ruins, but then again elementals might also. We'll see when the time comes, but that is changeable also :-) One of the main things I was looking for on this character is high mobility and high damage... is there anything else I might be able to do to boost my movement above 45' after Level 14 with Dervish 8's +15' enhancement bonus?
dkay807 07-10-07, 09:38 PM	Oh I like that fear Imp Skirmish! I'm definitely gonna replace Power Attack with that! Also the 2nd Favored Enemy is changeable... haven't made up my mind yet on what to make it. I was thinking constructs might be in the ruins, but then again elementals might also. We'll see when the time comes, but that is changeable also :-) One of the main things I was looking for on this character is high mobility and high damage... is there anything else I might be able to do to boost my movement above 45' after Level 14 with Dervish 8's +15' enhancement bonus? You can expect that at higher levels, you'll have Boots of Speed and will be hasted nearly all of the time. Assume you'll have a 60' movement to do what you need to do. The fewer attacks you take and the closer you start to your enemy, the further away you can get. Also, you could benefit from a Fly, Mass Fly, or magic item that grants a similar effect to also move at 60 feet. Combine that with Haste and you have a 90 foot movement - more than enough to get in and out from almost anywhere.
Mommy was an Orc 07-10-07, 09:52 PM	You can expect that at higher levels, you'll have Boots of Speed and will be hasted nearly all of the time. Assume you'll have a 60' movement to do what you need to do. The fewer attacks you take and the closer you start to your enemy, the further away you can get. Also, you could benefit from a Fly, Mass Fly, or magic item that grants a similar effect to also move at 60 feet. Combine that with Haste and you have a 90 foot movement - more than enough to get in and out from almost anywhere. Remember, the Dervish bonus to speed and the Haste bonus to speed are both enhancement bonuses - they won't stack...
dkay807 07-10-07, 11:17 PM	Remember, the Dervish bonus to speed and the Haste bonus to speed are both enhancement bonuses - they won't stack... Hence why I stated he would have a 60' movement, not a 75' movement.
Maesto 07-11-07, 01:04 AM	Looks relatively solid. Remember that ITWF has a dexterity requirement, however.
awroe 07-11-07, 08:43 AM	One of the main things I was looking for on this character is high mobility and high damage... is there anything else I might be able to do to boost my movement above 45' after Level 14 with Dervish 8's +15' enhancement bonus? Both Cleric 1 with Celerity domain and Barbarian 1 provide 10' speed boosts in light armour - and they stack with each other and with haste IIRC.
Demoyn 07-11-07, 09:46 AM	Everyone in this thread is forgetting one huge piece of information. Scout bonus feat comes at FOURTH level.
LachlarlanIII 07-11-07, 11:14 AM	Deadly Defence is great if you plan on using two scimitars as a dervish. When you fight defensively OR combat expertise for 2, you get +1d6 damage with light or finesseable weapons which your scimitars are with Dervish. If you plan on taking Combat Expertise, I highly recommend taking Deadly Defence as well. And IIRC, Deadly Defence doesn't count as precision damage so you should always get it.
Mithreinmaethor 07-11-07, 05:23 PM	Will post a concept build when I get home at 5 am CST or something like that
Gargoyle117 07-12-07, 12:27 PM	Both Scout and Dervish movement increases are enhancement bonuses. They do not stack with eachother. At 16th level, the +15' from Dervish becomes the best, so the character's speed without equipment would be 45'. I am not sure of the enhancement bonus from boots of speed. Generally I am not a fan of Dervish with scout. The classes seem to mesh poorly together. I use Thinblades rather than a slashing weapon and don't like to loose the skirmish and favored enemy progression.
wangka 07-12-07, 05:19 PM	Generally I am not a fan of Dervish with scout. The classes seem to mesh poorly together. I use Thinblades rather than a slashing weapon and don't like to loose the skirmish and favored enemy progression. I thought, at least for the theory behind a similar scout/ ranger/ dervish build, that scout and improved skirmish are very synergistic with dervish. The skirmish bonus to damage can be applied for several attacks during a dervish dance rather than the single skirmish attack that limits higher-level scouts. A build at around character level 9 (scout 4, ranger 2, dervish 3, St 18, the feat deadly defense (since it may be tougher to get the 20' off for imp skirmish), two +2 scimitars) might be: +11/+6 melee 1d6+8 + skirmish 2d6 + deadly defense (at -2 hit/+2 AC) 1d6 +11 melee 1d6+6 + skirmish 2d6 + deadly defense (at -2 hit/+2 AC) 1d6 Which might average around 64 damage if all three attacks hit. That seems respectable for a light infantry type. Scoring a haste would get you to 86 damage. Although I suppose a straight scout/ranger 9 would have skirmish damage (with improved skirmish) +5d6, +4 AC and could two-weapon pounce (maybe also deadly defense for another +1d6) and would preserve future gains to skirmish and more favored enemies. Another pretty viable build I would think, and with very good skill progression. An opinion question: Is it worth dipping into one or two fighter levels (and slowing the dervish progression) to get more feats or good feats earlier? Like the aforementioned deadly defense, improved skirmish, imp twf, improved critical maybe two weapon defense, or even F4 (which would seem to take too much away) for weapon specialization, slashing weapon mastery, and that other PHB2 feat slashing flurry [?] with those scimitars. It seems like the later dervish levels are very much worth taking, but wasn't sure how the math worked out.
happosaai 07-12-07, 11:52 PM	Wang, the main reason I went Scout 4 / Ranger 2 was the feat Swift Hunter - which combines Scout and Ranger levels to determine Skirmish bonus and Favored Enemies... and lets you use your skirmish bonus damage against said enemies even if they normally would not take that bonus damage. At Scout 6 / Ranger 6 which is what I would count as with the Swift Hunter feat I would have +2D6 +1AC from Skirmish and 2 Favored enemies (Undead and 1 other) I think I'm going to have to drop my ITWF since I dont meet the dex requirement and snag something else instead. Any ideas what to replace ITWF with, and should I move the Imp Skirmish feat further back to compensate at 9? Decisions, decisions... hehe :-)
bitznarf 07-13-07, 12:58 AM	You could meet the requirements using Gloves of Dex +4 couldn't you?
LachlarlanIII 07-13-07, 09:57 AM	I think I'm going to have to drop my ITWF since I dont meet the dex requirement and snag something else instead. Any ideas what to replace ITWF with, and should I move the Imp Skirmish feat further back to compensate at 9? Decisions, decisions... hehe :-) If you drop ITWF you could replace it with Deadly Defence.
Gargoyle117 07-13-07, 10:02 AM	I believe that Improved Skirmish is a requirement for my scout and any other scout build I have considered. With ~3 levels of ranger, you get the endurance feat IIRC. That should put you well on your way to getting Wild Runner from Races of the Wild. There are some odd skill requirements, but you may want to consider that class. It's movement bonus is a bonus to your natural movement, like Barbarian and the Celerity Domain. It actually stacks with Scout, unlike Dervish movement. For melee scouts, I highly recomend Thief-Acrobat. This class also has some very steep skill requirements, but I use the class benefits every round of every combat. You get the ability to move at full speed while tumbling at no penalty. To me, this is as good as doubling my movement rate. You also can kip up from prone as a free action without provoking. Combat benefits aside, it is quite fun to have the insanely high Jump, Climb, Tumble and Balance checks. Makes you very handy in tight spots.
dkay807 07-13-07, 10:03 AM	Wang, the main reason I went Scout 4 / Ranger 2 was the feat Swift Hunter - which combines Scout and Ranger levels to determine Skirmish bonus and Favored Enemies... and lets you use your skirmish bonus damage against said enemies even if they normally would not take that bonus damage. At Scout 6 / Ranger 6 which is what I would count as with the Swift Hunter feat I would have +2D6 +1AC from Skirmish and 2 Favored enemies (Undead and 1 other) I think I'm going to have to drop my ITWF since I dont meet the dex requirement and snag something else instead. Any ideas what to replace ITWF with, and should I move the Imp Skirmish feat further back to compensate at 9? Decisions, decisions... hehe :-) If you're dropping ITWF, then there's really no point in using TWF vs. Power Attack. I'd recommend taking only 1 Ranger level in this case.
JamesMaissen 07-13-07, 05:58 PM	Hi all, I was thinking about making a character along these guidelines to be a strong melee damage dealer during the Ruins of Greyhawk core games. The build somewhat focuses on Swift Hunter and the Skirmish + Favored Enemy combo, as well as TWF. I was hoping to get a critique as to the viability of the build, see if I made any mistakes, and see if anyone has other ideas on where to take this concept? Human S 16, D 14, C 13, I 13, W 10, Ch 8 As much as I'm a fan of having a Will save on fighters, I would not gimp Con for it, and if you're paying for the 13 INT, the 14 isn't that high a price for another full skill. My suggestion is the following: Human STR 16 INT 14 WIS 08 DEX 14 CON 14 CHA 08 If you desire you could adjust the STR down to pay for a higher DEX or even CON. Scout 1 Expeditious Dodge, Combat Expertiese Scout 2 Fighter1 WF: Falchion (or Guisarme), Mobility Ranger1 (Favored Enemy: Construct) Scout3 Scout4 Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish (Favored Enemy: Undead) Dervish1 Dervish2 Dervish3 Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack You'd likely desire to start out with something other than Exped Dodge and retrain into it. Otherwise start with Dodge and Mobility, and pick up Expertise at 3rd (then retrain Dodge to exped dodge when you have enough movement). After 9th decide on more Dervish levels or more levels to give you more skirmish dice. You may decide on a 2nd Fighter level for Power Attack on the cheap, but I'd look at the build overall as beyond the feat it's pretty much a dead level for you. Mind you this ignores TWF, but not sure how essential that was for you concept-wise. -James
happosaai 07-14-07, 11:34 AM	You could meet the requirements using Gloves of Dex +4 couldn't you? Hmm I guess I didn't realize I could qualify for a feat by using the gloves of dex +4... If I can do that then I'm going to keep ITWF then. I would also like to not add an extra base class in to avoid the exp/gp penalty.
Frumpkis 07-15-07, 11:50 PM	Keep in mind though, that if you get caught in an Anti-magic Field, your gloves will cease to function. Any time you fail to fulfill the pre-req's for a feat (sufficient Dex in this case), you lose the ability to use the feat. It may still be a good idea to go this route; you just have to weigh whether this is a risk you can live with.