Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JBeauMI 03-31-07, 09:41 AM	It sounded like such a cool idea, but making an Unseen Seer from a Scout 1 / Warmage 1 is getting tricky for me. Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14 Feats: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Human Unseen Seer Prequisites: Hide, Search and Spot: 8 ranks; Sense Motive and Spellcraft: 4 ranks Ability to cast 1st level arcane spells, including at least 2 diviniation spells So far I have 4 ranks each in Hide, Search, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Spot. At 5th level, I can retrain 3 ranks in Hide into class ranks At 6th level, retrain 4 ranks in Search into class ranks and take the Extra Spell feat to gain Critical Strike as the second divination spell. At 7th level, retrain 4 ranks in Spot into class ranks. At 8th level, 2 cross-class ranks in Hide to fulfill the prerequisites. Short of taking a level of Beguiler at level 5, is there a quicker and/or better way to get to Unseen Seer? I looked at the Communicator and Insightful feats (CAr), but they provide spell-like abilities, which do not appear to fulfill the prerequisites. I looked at Arcane Disciple, but lack access to Know-religion and the needed wisdom to cast the spells. Overall, I am very happy with this build. I am effectively trading +1d6 skirmish damage, +1 diviniation spell power and 12 skill ranks from levels 8 - 10 of Unseen Seer for Sudden Empower and Armored Mage Medium from Warmage. I'd hate to goof this character up any worse.
TWG_Prometheus 03-31-07, 09:56 AM	I think you're going to have to show us more of your build. Can't come up with any reason why you'd even be thinking about Beguiler without seeing more of it. I'm not following the 'retrain X into class ranks' either. Once you're purchased skills as cross-class skills, you can't ever get the 2 skill points per 1 skill rank back.
Mommy was an Orc 03-31-07, 10:15 AM	You can't actually get your character into there without doing some really odd things - you need Arcane Disciple(Travel) and a 12 Wisdom to get in there. Unseen Seer requires 2 divination spells, Warmage only gives you 1... If you had a 12 Wisdom, I'd cross-class Knowledge(religion) and pick up Arcane Disciple(Travel) at 6th. I'd do the build so it was Scout 1/Warmage 7/Unseen Seer 7.
JBeauMI 03-31-07, 10:35 AM	I think you're going to have to show us more of your build. Can't come up with any reason why you'd even be thinking about Beguiler without seeing more of it. Beguiler would provide 3 additional divination spells and enough skill ranks to achieve the prerequisites at level 5. It is quick, although it would weaken the character in the long run. I'm not following the 'retrain X into class ranks' either. Once you're purchased skills as cross-class skills, you can't ever get the 2 skill points per 1 skill rank back. I really dislike the class/cross-class skills and retraining rules! Since hide, search and spot are class skills for a scout, it is awkward to add ranks as cross-class. (I'm not even certain how it should look on my character sheet.) So I need to wait until level 8 and cross-class 4 ranks into the third prerequisite skill? If you had a 12 Wisdom, I'd cross-class Knowledge(religion) and pick up Arcane Disciple(Travel) at 6th. I'd do the build so it was Scout 1/Warmage 7/Unseen Seer 7. Knowledge (religion) is a trained only skill, and not one of the 5 knowledge skills for this character. Scout 1/Warmage 7/ Unseen Seer 7 looks playable to me.
Sieylianna 03-31-07, 06:11 PM	At 6th level, retrain 4 ranks in Search into class ranks and take the Extra Spell feat to gain Critical Strike as the second divination spell. I've seen a couple of people talking about critical strike, so I looked at it for my gish, but it's closed in living greyhawk. Yes, there are other divination spells you could take, but I don't see this as a worthwhile approach. Ed
copper_wyrmling 03-31-07, 08:32 PM	I've seen a couple of people talking about critical strike, so I looked at it for my gish, but it's closed in living greyhawk. Yes, there are other divination spells you could take, but I don't see this as a worthwhile approach. Ed Critical Strike from CM is closed in LG. The Spell Compendium version is Open. However, I believe Extra Spell can't be used to gain spells not normally on your spell list, at least in LG - there's a Circle ruling on this on the Theocracy of the Pale website.
Maesto 04-01-07, 01:07 AM	Just out of interest, how does practised spellcaster interact with unseen seer? I'm thinking of the build: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 15 1. Scout, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2 ranks in kn rel(cc) 2 ranks in sense motive (cc) 4 ranks in spot, hide, search, disable device, x, x 2. Warmage retrain 4 ranks in x to 4 ranks in spellcraft 1 rank in spot (cc) 3. Warmage, Empower Spell 1 rank in kn rel (cc) 1 rank in sense motive (cc) 4. Warmage 2 ranks in spot 5. Warmage 1 rank in kn rel (cc) 1 rank in sense motive (cc) retrain 3 ranks in x to 3 ranks in hide 6. Warmage, Arcane Disciple (travel) retrain 4 ranks in x to 4 ranks in search 1 rank in spot, hide (cc) All skill prereqs are now met. 7. Warmage Retrain to get disable device maxed from hereon in 8. Warmage 9. Unseen Seer, Rapid Metamagic, retrain Precise Shot to quicken spell 10-. Unseen Seer, obtain improved skirmish? 12. Practised Spellcaster Attribute Scores can change, any thoughts? Hmm, you need 3 levels of scout to get improved skirmish. Damn. That's a bit too much to give up, methinks...
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 09:03 AM	Just out of interest, how does practised spellcaster interact with unseen seer? I'm thinking of the build: Human Str 8 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 15 1. Scout, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot 2 ranks in kn rel(cc) 2 ranks in sense motive (cc) 4 ranks in spot, hide, search, disable device, x, x 2. Warmage retrain 4 ranks in x to 4 ranks in spellcraft 1 rank in spot (cc) 3. Warmage, Empower Spell 1 rank in kn rel (cc) 1 rank in sense motive (cc) 4. Warmage 2 ranks in spot 5. Warmage 1 rank in kn rel (cc) 1 rank in sense motive (cc) retrain 3 ranks in x to 3 ranks in hide 6. Warmage, Arcane Disciple (travel) retrain 4 ranks in x to 4 ranks in search 1 rank in spot, hide (cc) All skill prereqs are now met. 7. Warmage Retrain to get disable device maxed from hereon in 8. Warmage 9. Unseen Seer, Rapid Metamagic, retrain Precise Shot to quicken spell 10-. Unseen Seer, obtain improved skirmish? 12. Practised Spellcaster Attribute Scores can change, any thoughts? Hmm, you need 3 levels of scout to get improved skirmish. Damn. That's a bit too much to give up, methinks... That's the basic idea. You want to take 2 levels of Unseen Seer as soon as you qualify for it, then take Warmage 7 at precisely 11th - that gets you Guided Shot as a spell known and then lets you pick up Wall of Force at 11th. I wouldn't take 3 levels of Scout - the Improved Skirmish isn't that useful for you.
JBeauMI 04-01-07, 09:35 AM	However, I believe Extra Spell can't be used to gain spells not normally on your spell list, at least in LG - there's a Circle ruling on this on the Theocracy of the Pale website. Right you are! Following is the text from the D&D FAQ (10/18/06). Can the warmage (Complete Arcane) benefit from the Extra Spell feat? No. Extra Spell lets you add one spell to your list of spells known, but the spell must be taken from your class spell list. Since the warmage already knows all the spells on his class spell list, this feat has no effect. Ouch!
UMiskatonic 04-01-07, 10:40 AM	Umm, how is that a better build than Scout 1/Warmage 14? Unseen Seer increases the caster level of...True Strike, and lowers the caster level of EVERY OTHER SPELL YOU HAVE. AND you have to do goofy things with skills and retraining and etc. I don't see the payoff.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 11:11 AM	Umm, how is that a better build than Scout 1/Warmage 14? Unseen Seer increases the caster level of...True Strike, and lowers the caster level of EVERY OTHER SPELL YOU HAVE. AND you have to do goofy things with skills and retraining and etc. I don't see the payoff. Because you're a full-fledged skill monkey(not just someone who disable device/search) at high levels and the eventual +5d6 of Skirmish somewhat makes up for the lost damage from not having top-tier spells every other level. If you take Practiced Spellcaster, that makes up for the caster level loss from Unseen Seer. A way of looking at it is that you're a Skill Monkey who is almost a full-fledged Warmage, not a Warmage who happens to find traps. Guided Shot is pretty nice for a Warmage - no cover, no concealment unless it is full against your touch attacks.
UMiskatonic 04-01-07, 12:46 PM	A way of looking at it is that you're a Skill Monkey who is almost a full-fledged Warmage, not a Warmage who happens to find traps. I see your point about skills, but I think this is an easier build with wizard. You have a wider spell list, more available feats, and more INT synergy.
Mommy was an Orc 04-01-07, 03:39 PM	I see your point about skills, but I think this is an easier build with wizard. You have a wider spell list, more available feats, and more INT synergy. Certainly, though the ability to use light armor isn't a bad one. Scout/Warmage is more of a 'I want to blow things up, but at the same time, I'd like to contribute out of combat, too.' Sometimes, having limited options is a positive. One of the three reasons I hate playing Clerics is that they have so many options, that it is just hard to keep track of them all effectively at a table - unless you decide to do one thing and one thing only well.