Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Andyr 08-07-07, 01:35 PM	EDIT: My current build idea is further down the thread, here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13364647#post13364647). I'm hopefully shortly to be playing Living Greyhawk in the Onnawal part of the Splintered Suns metaregion (as I live in the UK), and have been playing D&D for around 6 years although am completely new to RPGA and Greyhawk in general. As a result, I'd appreciate if people could cast an eye over my build for legality, as well as to impart any other general advice. I normally play skill and/or spell-heavy characters, so have decided to go for something different. For reference, I have most of the books allowed in LG. Maasavian, half-orc (half-Suloise human) Ranger 1 Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 8 Favoured enemy: humanoid (human), unless there's something obviously more suitable. Any thoughts on a good second favoured enemy, for later on? Skill points at level 1: 28 (probably going for a broad mix of skills). The Int is 12 for an extra language at character creation (Gnoll or Giant, probably--what's useful in Greyhawk?) as well as being in case I want to go into Dervish (which needs Combat Expertise, hence Int 13). Feats: Perhaps Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword) or Iron Will? The plan is to take 5 or 6 levels of Ranger, and the ranged combat options. I want the character to be reasonably competent at melee and ranged combat, so he'll probably wield a greatsword and composite longbow eventually. I don't like dipping into lots of core classes before PrCs, so ideally I want to keep to Rgr 5/6 (as opposed to, say, Rgr 2 Ftr 4 or something). Not being familiar with Rangers or half-orcs, I would appreciate advice on: - Which PrCs are good to aim for? Menacing Brute, Outcast Champion and the like require ranks in speech skills, which Ranger doesn't have as class skills. Which scraps my initial thought of going Rgr 6 followed by these two classes. Other routes I had thought of after level 6 were Dervish with the greatsword, or Order of the Bow Initiate with a nice composite longbow. Dervish might necessitate reducing Wis to 11 and upping Dex to 13 (for Dodge and Mobility). - Is it worth getting an animal companion at all, or should I just skip it when I get to level 4? I hear that alternate class features aren't open by default. If an animal companion is going to be worth it, any particular sort? I don't mind if my PC isn't the most optimised character out there so long as they're likely not to be dead wood to an adventuring group. I've picked half-orc and ranger for novelty, and Lawful Neutral as I personally prefer Lawful orcs (a holdover from previous editions. ;)) I don't want to fall into the archetype of Chaotic half-orc barbarian, and hope to make use of the 'civilised' nature of the character's human half. Perhaps he's a former slave brought to Onnawal by the Scarlet Brotherhood in years past. I had thought of taking levels of Pious Templar, but am not sure which deity would be good to pick (I quite like Wee Jas but the dagger as a favoured weapon does not seem particularly useful for this build). Plus, as I mentioned, I've played a lot of spell-intensive characters before so wanted to focus on something more combat-oriented.
Lupo 08-07-07, 03:14 PM	I'm hopefully shortly to be playing Living Greyhawk in the Onnawal part of the Splintered Suns metaregion (as I live in the UK), and have been playing D&D for around 6 years although am completely new to RPGA and Greyhawk in general. As a result, I'd appreciate if people could cast an eye over my build for legality, as well as to impart any other general advice. I normally play skill and/or spell-heavy characters, so have decided to go for something different. For reference, I have most of the books allowed in LG. Maasavian, half-orc (half-Suloise human) Ranger 1 Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 8 Favoured enemy: humanoid (human), unless there's something obviously more suitable. Any thoughts on a good second favoured enemy, for later on? Skill points at level 1: 28 (probably going for a broad mix of skills). The Int is 12 for an extra language at character creation (Gnoll or Giant, probably--what's useful in Greyhawk?) as well as being in case I want to go into Dervish (which needs Combat Expertise, hence Int 13). Feats: Perhaps Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword) or Iron Will? The plan is to take 5 or 6 levels of Ranger, and the ranged combat options. I want the character to be reasonably competent at melee and ranged combat, so he'll probably wield a greatsword and composite longbow eventually. I don't like dipping into lots of core classes before PrCs, so ideally I want to keep to Rgr 5/6 (as opposed to, say, Rgr 2 Ftr 4 or something). Not being familiar with Rangers or half-orcs, I would appreciate advice on: - Which PrCs are good to aim for? Menacing Brute, Outcast Champion and the like require ranks in speech skills, which Ranger doesn't have as class skills. Which scraps my initial thought of going Rgr 6 followed by these two classes. Other routes I had thought of after level 6 were Dervish with the greatsword, or Order of the Bow Initiate with a nice composite longbow. Dervish might necessitate reducing Wis to 11 and upping Dex to 13 (for Dodge and Mobility). - Is it worth getting an animal companion at all, or should I just skip it when I get to level 4? I hear that alternate class features aren't open by default. If an animal companion is going to be worth it, any particular sort? I don't mind if my PC isn't the most optimised character out there so long as they're likely not to be dead wood to an adventuring group. I've picked half-orc and ranger for novelty, and Lawful Neutral as I personally prefer Lawful orcs (a holdover from previous editions. ;)) I don't want to fall into the archetype of Chaotic half-orc barbarian, and hope to make use of the 'civilised' nature of the character's human half. Perhaps he's a former slave brought to Onnawal by the Scarlet Brotherhood in years past. I had thought of taking levels of Pious Templar, but am not sure which deity would be good to pick (I quite like Wee Jas but the dagger as a favoured weapon does not seem particularly useful for this build). Plus, as I mentioned, I've played a lot of spell-intensive characters before so wanted to focus on something more combat-oriented. first thing, be really good in ONE thing, so if you want to go ranged combatant, then don't waste a feat on "power attack" or "weapon focus greatsword", just start with "weapon focus longbow" (covers all sorts of longbows) or even better "point blank shot" - gives a nice +1 on attack and damage from time to time and opens up "precise shot" - and buy a masterwork composite longbow suitable for your strength as soon as possible. there is nothing wrong with carrying some "backup" melee weapons, but don't waste precious fetas on them ;) or do the other way round, take a melee focus and the two weapon fighting route and then take "weapon focus longsword" (better for fighting with two weapons AND also suitable for taking it in two hands ;) as one of the most juicy frontliner and ranged attacker feats out there is now weapon mastery (either melee or ranged version) one should try to get "weapon specialization" the prerequisite for it from somewhere. if you don't want to go fighter 4, the pious templar prestige class is a nice alternative and it makes good use of your wisdom score for granting you some additional spells and your good saves because it grants "mettle". the prerequisites are a suboptimal feat "true believer" and some cross class skill points in knowledge religion. just pick a deity with favored weapon longsword or longbow. animal companions of a ranger are MOSTLY flavor, unless you can get it to be really beefy somehow. and this costs feats (and natural bond isn't open anyway) and dips in beastmaster or the gnomish ranger alternative class or all of these. ciao martin m.
Demoyn 08-07-07, 04:40 PM	I'd suggest that you decide now if you want to go dervish or not. Right now you're very spread out with your stats. No matter what, drop your cha down to 6. The extra +1 won't do you much good. If you're not going to be a dervish, and you're looking for something "different" from the skill characters, put your int back down to 10 (or maybe even 6-8) and focus in combat and tracking. You can always buy another language for 2 skill points, so don't let that end up costing you 4 much needed creation points. If you're playing a two-weapon fighter, than having an 18 str is extremely beneficial, since only even numbers affect your off-hand damage. Plus, the -2/-2 really hurts a lesser strength melee fighter. If you're playing an archer, your dex is going to kill you. Even if you're not playing an archer, your dex should be 14 minimum if you wear light armor. If you really want to play a combat-intensive half-orc ranger build (which can be very powerful), then I'd suggest going: Str 16 (+2 to 18) Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 (-2 to 8) Wis 12 Cha 8 (-2 to 6) Choose one weapon (short sword, quarterstaff, orc double-axe, elven thinblade) and focus in it. Take Pious Templar as soon as possible for weapon specialization and focus on massive damage. You'll need to do whatever you can do to keep your damage up, because you won't have any armor to speak of, and you'll be even lower than a fighter with HP.
control freak 08-07-07, 08:48 PM	favored enemy undead is amazeing take it no matter what, personaly i would max it out if you could
clannagh 08-07-07, 08:53 PM	favored enemy undead is amazeing take it no matter what, personaly i would max it out if you could Whilst you meet a lot of humans they tend to die easy enough without bothering with favored enemy. Undead is indeed a good choice in LG as is evil outsider. Basically choose something with DR that is common in your region (and hence hard for archers to kill).
Andyr 08-08-07, 04:03 PM	Thanks for the advice, all. One of the reasons I was thinking of going two-handed as opposed to dual-wielding is that the former only needs me to buy one weapon, as opposed to two. Am I likely to be rich enough to get two decent magical weapons eventually? I'll have a think and post an updated build at a later date.
TWG_Prometheus 08-08-07, 04:08 PM	I've considered builds that try to mix in melee combat capability with ranged capability before as well, and I came up with a conclusion. I think they can work, and work just fine. Go with the melee-dominant path though. Archery feats take up soooo much of your early build that it just doesn't leave room for much else. By contrast, if you're just using the ranged combat style from ranger early in fights when the enemy hasn't reached you yet, you don't need ANY archery feats to supplement your combat style. Rapid Shot alone is enough if you never plan to shoot into a melee fight. Quick Draw might be helpful to allow you to change between the two rapidly, but even that isn't really needed. Consider a Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 4 mix into whatever PrC you want. You'll be good in melee combat without being incompetent at ranged combat. Get Ranger 3 or don't go to Fighter 4 if the experience penalty bothers you.
Lupo 08-08-07, 04:32 PM	I've considered builds that try to mix in melee combat capability with ranged capability before as well, and I came up with a conclusion. I think they can work, and work just fine. Go with the melee-dominant path though. Archery feats take up soooo much of your early build that it just doesn't leave room for much else. By contrast, if you're just using the ranged combat style from ranger early in fights when the enemy hasn't reached you yet, you don't need ANY archery feats to supplement your combat style. Rapid Shot alone is enough if you never plan to shoot into a melee fight. Quick Draw might be helpful to allow you to change between the two rapidly, but even that isn't really needed. Consider a Barbarian 1/Ranger 2/Fighter 4 mix into whatever PrC you want. You'll be good in melee combat without being incompetent at ranged combat. Get Ranger 3 or don't go to Fighter 4 if the experience penalty bothers you. LOL no the real problem with archers is that everyone else doesn't like them. squishy characters want a solid meat shield IN FRONT of them ;) archers are everywhere BUT NEVER in front of the squishy characters :P frontliners don't like archers as they tend to kill foes BEFORE they can walk up to them :D sneaky guys don't like archers because they will not be their FLANKING buddies ;) archers are feat intense but can attack everywhere on the battlefield without moving this can be a big advantage. getting your damage up is somehow more complicated for an archer but can be done, a friend of mine is infamous for shooting down EVERYTHING :) ciao martin m.
UMiskatonic 08-08-07, 04:54 PM	Andyr, welcome to LG. Here's a few things... 1) You'll get more skill points every level, but you get one chance at fixing your stats into place. You mentioned languages. If you take speak language cross-class, you'll lose four skill points. If you get it with bonus INT, you'll lose two dex. I'd rather have dex, and rangers get skill points all over. 2) The human languages are pretty good choices. I'm not in Onnwal, but as far as cores go, speaking Baklunish and Suel will get you farther than giant or gnoll. 3) You'll get two magical weapons eventually, no sweat. My fighter types generally have a third by 9th level or so. 4) You should try to decide between archery, two weapons, and a two-handed weapon as soon as you can. Having a plan B isn't bad at all, but get started with plan A first. Ex) Ranger w/ greatsword and power attack takes rapid shot and quick draw at 3rd. Enemies out of sword range will meet a storm of throwing axes. 5) Half-orc, half-suel won't be very popular. Suel will despise you, and I'm not sure that orcs will like you either. However, if you're looking to be an outcast champion, I can think of no better race.
bitznarf 08-08-07, 05:18 PM	5) Half-orc, half-suel won't be very popular. Suel will despise you, and I'm not sure that orcs will like you either. However, if you're looking to be an outcast champion, I can think of no better race. Half-elf, half-rhenee?
Andyr 08-09-07, 12:47 PM	Ok, both Menacing Brute and Outcast Champion (the latter of which, at least, I know I want to take) have prerequisites of ranks in Intimidate (5 and 8)--which is a cross-class skill for both Ranger and Pious Templar. As I don't really want to dip into base classes too much, is there any way people can think of for me to get Intimidate as a class skill without doing so? Rgr 2/Ftr 3 (or 4) or Rgr 1/Ftr 4 would be one way to get enough ranks to do it, but there's the dipping issue and an experience penalty. Or I could go Ftr 5 and dispense with ranger levels completely, but I think I am perhaps too used to skill points (and the usefulness of Track and Favoured enemy) to be entirely happy with that idea. So if there was some way I could take 5 or 6 levels of Ranger and have Intimidate as a class skill, I'd be happiest. So the build would probably be 5 or 6 levels of a melee class, 5 Outcast Champion, and then either Menacing Brute, Pious Templar or something else shiny that I find. I like the flavour of Outcast Champion and think a build planned around that would suit me.
Infinitive 08-09-07, 02:56 PM	Actually, there's another option for you, buddy. You could always pull the old spiked armor + greatsword dual wielding trick. I'll explain. Now, in the description of spiked armor, it says that you can use the spiked armor to make offhand attacks with. Further, it counts as a light weapon. Remember this, as it's important. A greatsword requires two hands to wield, of course, which removes all possibility at TWF that requires you to have anything whatsoever in your offhand. However, as mentioned above, spiked armor can be used to make offhand attacks, even though you're not holding it in your offhand. The benefits of doing this are mixed, but somewhat attractive. Since you are legally 2Hing your greatsword, you get strength and a half to damage, and the favorable 2-for-1 tradeoff rate from Power attack that makes 2Hing so very good. You will only get half strength on your spikes (as normal for OH weapons) and 1-for-1 on PA. Finally, you'll still suffer the standard -2 TWF penalty that is typical to all TWFers. If you're interested in doing this, it really pays off to dump all of your non-Con stats to send your strength through the roof, since you'll be relying heavily on it to supplement both your attack and damage. As you're a half-orc, I'd really reccomend paying your Str up to 20; it's rarely worth it, but for builds that rely almost exclusively on strength, it can make the difference. +4 to hit at level 1 is solid (not good), but it ought to get you by on accuracy until you can bump your BAB and get some bracers of giant ownage. As for good options for what to do after Ranger? You have a couple of good options. Dropping out after Ranger 2 is always good; you walk away with the best 2 levels of the class (skill points included). Look at Fighter 2/Barbarian 1 or Fighter 2/Knight 1 (depending on your law/chaos bent). Beyond that (and especially if you take the fighter levels for your bonus feats), Pious Templar is always good for a one-level dip (<3 Mettle). Aside from that, pick up the Complete Warrior and scan through, see what strikes your fancy. A flavorful character might be (if you're lawful) Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Knight 2/Justicair X (arrange those levels as you need to in order to get your skill ranks at the appropriate time).
Demoyn 08-09-07, 03:23 PM	I've always liked the greatsword/armor spike TWF template, but the armor spike doesn't get the power attack bonus, just the negative to hit (along with all light weapons).
TempleLion 08-09-07, 04:14 PM	I have a 1/2 orc ranger who is a blast to play. Now at ECL6, he is Rgr5/Bst1 and functions as an awesome shooting tank. The level of beastmaster brings my animal companion to a druid equivalent level, which is a big help. It makes him a tactical advantage and not just fluff. Heed the advice to focus on one thing. If you want to be a shooter, be the best one possible. Focus all of your feats there ... with the exception of Skill Focus (Handle Animal) for Beastmaster. Use a greatbow from the beginning and you will hit hard when standing still. At ECL 6, I take 3 attacks and have the potential to so 45points of damage when standing still (3 x 1d10+5). And, if needed I can wade into combat with my greatsword. As for other PrCs, look at Cragtop Archer and Dread Commando (if you can get access to the latter). They are both well-suited to 1/2 orc rangers. Peace, D
Andyr 08-09-07, 07:11 PM	Here's draft two of the character: Maasavian, half-orc (half-Suloise human) Ranger 1 Str 17 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 12 Cha 10 Here's a feat and stat bump progression for level 1-15: Ranger 1: Track (bonus), Iron Will, Favoured Enemy (humans) Ranger 2: Endurance (bonus), Combat style: Two-weapon fighting Ranger 3: Power Attack Ranger 4: +1 Str Ranger 5: Favoured Enemy ??? Ranger 6: Menacing Demeanour, Combat style: Improved two-weapon fighting Ranger 7 Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1: +1 Str Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1 / Outcast Champion 1: Weapon Focus: Greatsword Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1 / Outcast Champion 2 Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1 / Outcast Champion 3 Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1 / Outcast Champion 4: +1 Str, ??? Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 1 / Outcast Champion 5 Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 2 / Outcast Champion 5 Ranger 7 / Menacing Brute 3 / Outcast Champion 5: ??? I don't know what feats to take at higher levels, but that's a few years of play off so I have a while to decide. ;) I think I'll start off wielding a greatsword, then when I get a bit of cash will go with Infinitive's idea of armour spikes to make use of the combat styles. After Rgr 7 I'll have enough (cross-class) ranks in Intimidate to make it into Menacing Brute. One level of that gives me enough for Outcast Champion, which should be useful. The plan would be to Intimidate foes in combat, then use the greatsword to do a fair amount of damage (but keep a ranged weapon too, just in case). Menacing Demeanour, Menacing Brute and maxing out the skill should give me a reasonable Intimidate check. Plus he has full BAB. Plus it satisfies my desire not to dip into classes too much. :) I guess I could swap around the INT and CHA scores so as not to get the skill point penalty, but then as people have pointed out Rangers get pretty decent skill points anyway... I imagine Maasavian to be an ex-slave brought to Onnawal by the Scarlet Brotherhood, who through luck or force managed to win his freedom. Initially he might work as a mercenary to survive, but as he grows in power he would seek to lead and champion his rights as an individual. Even if not the most optimised of builds, does this look solid enough to survive--and, most importantly, legal for LG?
UMiskatonic 08-10-07, 09:18 AM	Looks legal, but you'll want a 14 Con. As a front liner, I would recommend nothing less. Hey, as a sorceror, I recommend a 14 Con. You'll still want more, but you can get by. You don't need as much CHA or DEX...
Demoyn 08-10-07, 09:43 AM	Keep your dex at 14. A 5% chance to get his is still a 5% chance to get hit on the front lines. I realize you're going outcast champion, but you should still bottom out your charisma. Put two more points into con, and two more points into strength. You don't get dual wielding until second level. Armor spikes are only 50 gold, and you'll want to upgrade to a chain shirt at second level anyway. May as well just start dual wielding as soon as you can.
Infinitive 08-10-07, 10:21 AM	Yeah, i definitely agree with the "nerf the Cha" sentiment thusfar. Outcast Champion (I presume that's why you want the 10 Cha) DOS have that one class feature whose uses/day are based on you Cha bonus... if positive. If you can't get your cha to 14 (so you can use it pretty much at will), you should nerf it into the dirt to fuel your constitution. Remember- you're a melee character with a very small hit die, and a half-orc witha greatsword and light armor always attracts a lot of attention. As for high level feats, here's a few thoughts: Since you have the room available in your build and you're staying almost full ranger, consider dropping a feat for Skill Focus (Handle Animal) and taking a one-level dip in the Beastmaster PrC. It'll add 3 (I think) levels to your effective druid level for determining the capabilities of your animal companion; that one level dip will turn your trained-to-flank-and-die riding dog into a genuine tactical threat. More, it'll really pay off (for the same reasons) to take Natural Bond sometime later in the build; adding 3 to your effective druid level for calculating your animal companion is very good. Besides, it lets you take a rhino mount at like level 5. And who doesn't want to ride a charging rhino into combat? I would strongly recommend that the first two favored enemies you take should be undead and constructs, in that order. One of the most outstanding benefits of favored enemy (and the one most often overlooked) is that favored enemy opens up your targets for critical hits; using favored enemy to enable crits allows all sorts of amazingness, including abuse with Hunter's Eye, a second level ranger spell that gives you 1d6 sneak attack die per 3 caster levels for one round (it's a swift action to cast). It's a NONC spell, so you'll have to find access, but there's nothing quite as awesome as sneak attacking that iron golem that was beating the crap out of your party. In that vein, Practiced Spellcaster (Ranger) is another excellent option to bolster your caster level a bit in later levels as well. Remember: you're the ranger. You're not the main tank, nor are you the main damage dealer. You're the low-magic Batman; it's your job to do everything pretty decently, and to fill in on whatever role the party is light on. Once you have your melee capabilities securely locked down, make sure you can do more than swing that sword.
Andyr 08-10-07, 06:39 PM	Again, thanks for the comments. I think I'll drop CHA to 8, raise CON to 14, take FE: Undead and see how I'm going after the first couple of sessions...
KarmaInferno 08-10-07, 11:34 PM	I've always liked the greatsword/armor spike TWF template, but the armor spike doesn't get the power attack bonus, just the negative to hit (along with all light weapons). That's no different than most other two-weapon fighting styles. Almost all such builds have a light weapon in the off hand anyhow. 2-hander + Armor Spikes at least makes up for it by doubling the effect of the main weapon's power attack damage. LOL no the real problem with archers is that everyone else doesn't like them. You ain't kidding. It's not just archers, most ranged attackers annoy the melee guys somtimes. I was in a party with my warmage, a sorcerer, two archers, and a cleric. And a barbarian. We kept focus firing and annihilating every target before he could even get to melee range. At one point, he just sat down after seeing a foe drop ten feet away, and sulked for the rest of the fight. (Note that the player was fine with it, and was having fun, his character was just peeved.) :D -karma