Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 07:12 PM	I've been moving my Spellsword-in-training up the ladder of levels for a while now, and they're almost ready to ditch that -in-training appellation. Doing so is bringing me perilously close to the train wreck that is level 8 though. I've seen this coming for a long while, but deciding on what exactly to do for levels 8 and 9 has been quite a dilemma and I can't really push it off any longer. Character Summary: Race:Human(Oeridian) Alignment: Lawful Good STR-14 (6) DEX-12 (4) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-10 (2) CHA-16 (8 + level 4 bump) Class levels: Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Bahamut 2 HP Count (for easy reference): 37 Feats: Draconic Heritage(Silver), Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer), Craft Magic Arms and Armor Next feat choices: Arcane Strike and Weapon Focus Spells: 1st level - Magic Missile, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement 2nd level - Whirling Blade (SpC) Equipment of Note: +2 Greatsword (crafted enchantment), Mithril Chain Shirt (+2 crafted enhancement bonus next time I play), Vest of Resistance +2, Pearl of Power I, various Consumables Next level plan: Spellsword 1 (gaining False Life and one other 1st level spell known) So far, the character hasn't been an overpowering character in any sense of the word, but what they've lacked in raw power, they've generally been able to make up for versatility, an aspect which clearly saved the party in one battle and has been very helpful in many others. I'm generally happy with the direction I've gone so far, and even Draconic Heritage has proven helpful via allowing me to use the Disguise skill effectively. The level 8 train wreck I referred to above is the decision of how to bridge the gap from Spellsword to Eldritch Knight. Major options I've considered: Level 8 Sorcerer Level 9 Sorcerer Eldritch Knight - rest --------------- Level 8 Spellsword Level 9 Spellsword Eldritch Knight - rest --------------- Spellsword until able to use Mithril Fullplate effectively Eldricth Knight - rest The first focuses what I can left on casting and drops one more BAB for a level 15 BAB/effective Sorcerer level of 12/12 and keeps me restricted to a Mithril Chain Shirt, possibly with a Mithril buckler if I switch from greatsword to longsword. The second tries to find a bit of a middle ground. It painfully drops one more spell level but maintains full caster level via Practiced Spellcaster. In return, I can wear a Mithril Breastplate, keep BAB-2 progression and pick up a much-needed bonus feat. I also get the first iterative attack at 8 in this build rather than at 9. The third would focus on becoming an arcanist tank, picking up Displacement and using Mithril Fullplate to get hard to hit. I lose a much greater number of spell levels this way, however, and don't even maintain full caster level. It gets the BAB of the Spellsword 3 build, but gives up or delays seriously the Eldritch Knight bonus feat, so it can't be counted as having an extra bonus feat above the first build, only a bonus feat sooner. ------------------ It's worthy to note that I'm starting Red Hand of Doom at the end of the week, and since I've heard that the mod is fairly difficult, getting more power right now may weigh slightly more heavily than it would in normal gaming. The RHoD party composition also includes a husband/wife pair of full-Wizard diviners, and so I won't be the party's main arcanist by any stretch of the imagination. As such I likely won't need to grab party staples like Haste. We also have a Dwarven Defender-in-training, so I won't be the main frontliner (thank goodness) either, but I'll probably see quite a bit of melee. Due to the time restrictions on RHoD, I don't think a retrain is a realistic possibility until I'm through the Adapted module either, so switching out feats (I know a lot of you will be tempted to pick at Draconic Heritage...I am) isn't terribly feasible either. ------------------- After thinking about it today, I've concluded that the third build (going heavy Spellsword) is mostly a thing for Fighter 1/Wizards that would be almost to 4th level spells before even hitting Spellsword, rather than my slower Sorcerer/Paladin mutt. It's not out the window (and I CAN get mithril fullplate if I want it via a favor) but it's looking low right now. The first and second builds are what I really spend a lot of my time bouncing between. The first is a better caster and I'd actually get 6th level spells before I hit the level 16 retirement mark, but suffers in melee combat an area I'm already struggling in a little. The second build doesn't really catch up in melee combat, but it does make up a lot of ground with the +1 BAB and bonus feat. Additionally I'll be able to use a Mithril Breastplate over a Mithril Chain Shirt (an Idea I like thematically even over the +1 AC) and if I ever snag access to the Twilight enhancement, I may still be able to upgrade to mithril fullplate with no arcane spell failure to worry about. Anyway, I've probably talked enough about this for the moment. Feel free to make suggestions. Feats, spells, classes, and even retrains (although any retrains likely won't be until level 10) are up for debate.
Alpha_Nerd 02-21-07, 07:37 PM	Do you have the pre-reqs and access to Mindbender? Pal 2/Sorc 4/Spellsword 1/Mindbender 1/EK 7 wouldn't be a bad route to go. You still take the BAB hit, but you actually get saves and abilities instead of sorc 5. Bluff 4 ranks Sense Motive 4 ranks Diplomacy 4 ranks intimidate 4 ranks able to cast charm person arcane caster 5th You could retrain one of your other 1st level spells into Charm Person IIRC, or better yet if you get another one at 7th level you could retrain ranks into one of the skills you need, as I think all of them are class skills for paladins or sorcs
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 07:51 PM	Nowhere close to Mindbender. That does point out that ANY full casting class I qualify for could replace the Sorcerer 5/6 and get me into Eldritch Knight one level sooner though, so good call. Sorcerer 6 is only there because it's pretty much as good as Eldritch Knight after you get Sorcerer 5 out of the way.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 07:55 PM	I've been moving my Spellsword-in-training up the ladder of levels for a while now, and they're almost ready to ditch that -in-training appellation. Doing so is bringing me perilously close to the train wreck that is level 8 though. I've seen this coming for a long while, but deciding on what exactly to do for levels 8 and 9 has been quite a dilemma and I can't really push it off any longer. Character Summary: Race:Human(Oeridian) Alignment: Lawful Good STR-14 (6) DEX-12 (4) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-10 (2) CHA-16 (8 + level 4 bump) Class levels: Sorcerer 4/Paladin of Bahamut 2 HP Count (for easy reference): 37 Feats: Draconic Heritage(Silver), Power Attack, Practiced Spellcaster(Sorcerer), Craft Magic Arms and Armor Next feat choices: Arcane Strike and Weapon Focus Spells: 1st level - Magic Missile, Shield, Ray of Enfeeblement 2nd level - Whirling Blade (SpC) Equipment of Note: +2 Greatsword (crafted enchantment), Mithril Chain Shirt (+2 crafted enhancement bonus next time I play), Vest of Resistance +2, Pearl of Power I, various Consumables Next level plan: Spellsword 1 (gaining False Life and one other 1st level spell known) So far, the character hasn't been an overpowering character in any sense of the word, but what they've lacked in raw power, they've generally been able to make up for versatility, an aspect which clearly saved the party in one battle and has been very helpful in many others. I'm generally happy with the direction I've gone so far, and even Draconic Heritage has proven helpful via allowing me to use the Disguise skill effectively. The level 8 train wreck I referred to above is the decision of how to bridge the gap from Spellsword to Eldritch Knight. Major options I've considered: Level 8 Sorcerer Level 9 Sorcerer Eldritch Knight - rest --------------- Level 8 Spellsword Level 9 Spellsword Eldritch Knight - rest --------------- Spellsword until able to use Mithril Fullplate effectively Eldricth Knight - rest The first focuses what I can left on casting and drops one more BAB for a level 15 BAB/effective Sorcerer level of 12/12 and keeps me restricted to a Mithril Chain Shirt, possibly with a Mithril buckler if I switch from greatsword to longsword. The second tries to find a bit of a middle ground. It painfully drops one more spell level but maintains full caster level via Practiced Spellcaster. In return, I can wear a Mithril Breastplate, keep BAB-2 progression and pick up a much-needed bonus feat. I also get the first iterative attack at 8 in this build rather than at 9. The third would focus on becoming an arcanist tank, picking up Displacement and using Mithril Fullplate to get hard to hit. I lose a much greater number of spell levels this way, however, and don't even maintain full caster level. It gets the BAB of the Spellsword 3 build, but gives up or delays seriously the Eldritch Knight bonus feat, so it can't be counted as having an extra bonus feat above the first build, only a bonus feat sooner. ------------------ It's worthy to note that I'm starting Red Hand of Doom at the end of the week, and since I've heard that the mod is fairly difficult, getting more power right now may weigh slightly more heavily than it would in normal gaming. The RHoD party composition also includes a husband/wife pair of full-Wizard diviners, and so I won't be the party's main arcanist by any stretch of the imagination. As such I likely won't need to grab party staples like Haste. We also have a Dwarven Defender-in-training, so I won't be the main frontliner (thank goodness) either, but I'll probably see quite a bit of melee. Due to the time restrictions on RHoD, I don't think a retrain is a realistic possibility until I'm through the Adapted module either, so switching out feats (I know a lot of you will be tempted to pick at Draconic Heritage...I am) isn't terribly feasible either. ------------------- After thinking about it today, I've concluded that the third build (going heavy Spellsword) is mostly a thing for Fighter 1/Wizards that would be almost to 4th level spells before even hitting Spellsword, rather than my slower Sorcerer/Paladin mutt. It's not out the window (and I CAN get mithril fullplate if I want it via a favor) but it's looking low right now. The first and second builds are what I really spend a lot of my time bouncing between. The first is a better caster and I'd actually get 6th level spells before I hit the level 16 retirement mark, but suffers in melee combat an area I'm already struggling in a little. The second build doesn't really catch up in melee combat, but it does make up a lot of ground with the +1 BAB and bonus feat. Additionally I'll be able to use a Mithril Breastplate over a Mithril Chain Shirt (an Idea I like thematically even over the +1 AC) and if I ever snag access to the Twilight enhancement, I may still be able to upgrade to mithril fullplate with no arcane spell failure to worry about. Anyway, I've probably talked enough about this for the moment. Feel free to make suggestions. Feats, spells, classes, and even retrains (although any retrains likely won't be until level 10) are up for debate. Race:Human Alignment: STR-14 (6) DEX-12 (4) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-10 (2) CHA-15 (8) Lv1(Sorcerer)Draconic Heritage, Power Attack Lv2(Sorcerer) Lv3(Sorcerer)Practiced Spellcaster Lv4(Sorcerer)+1 CHA Lv5(Paladin) Lv6(Paladin)Craft Magic Arms & Armor Lv7(Spellsword) Lv8(Mindbender)+1 CHA Lv9(Eldritch Knight)Arcane Strike Lv10(Eldritch Knight) Lv11(Eldritch Knight) Lv12(Eldritch Knight)Feat, +1 CHA Lv13(Eldritch Knight) Lv14(Eldritch Knight) Lv15(Eldritch Knight)Feat Though I'm fairly sure the ruling is that Practiced SPellcaster does not qualify you for crafting feats....
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 08:01 PM	Though I'm fairly sure the ruling is that Practiced SPellcaster does not qualify you for crafting feats.... I may have to fix that then. I can't get Mindbender in either case, however.
Jay_Ibero_911 02-21-07, 08:19 PM	I may have to fix that then. I can't get Mindbender in either case, however. There's always a special mission...
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 08:24 PM	It's not about PrC access. It's about not being anywhere remotely close to qualifying for Mindbender even if it was Open for my character.
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 08:58 PM	Just checked in the latest Dispel Confusion articles as well as the 7.0.1 LGCS for anything about Practiced Spellcaster not helping to qualify for feats. The wording of the feat itself gives you straight caster levels unless there's a more recent printing that makes a distinction. (I'm looking at Complete Arcane) That leaves only something derived from that sick ruling that WotC put out that wasn't ACTUALLY about caster levels qualifying for Prestige classes, but about Spellcaster level X, a term which could and should have meant something entirely different, but people are twisting around to mean caster level for some reason. That still doesn't apply to feats though. If someone knows of a source addressing the issue, feel free to say so.
jstorrie 02-21-07, 09:13 PM	Even if it was Open you couldn't take it. Mindbender is restriced to non-Good. Unless you can get starmetal (for Green Star Adept) you're going to be stuck with Sorc 5. You should, actually, get Sorc 6 (so Pal 2 / Sorc 5 / Spellsword 1 / Sorc +1) and going straight Spellsword after that isn't a bad idea. You don't qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and will need to swap it out immediately. Swap it for Retributive Spell. You should also ditch Whirling Blade at level 8. Get False Life then. I suggest you continue with: 7 Sorceror spells gained: bladeweave, grease 8 Spellsword spells gained: haste 9 Sorceror Blade of Force spells gained: tiny hut or greater mage armor, invisibility, enlarge person 10 Eldritch Knight f 11 Eldritch Knight spells gained: orb of force or dimension door or stoneskin or black tentacles or enervation or greater invisibility 12 Eldritch Knight Arcane Strike and continue with Eldritch Knight.
magebeast 02-21-07, 09:23 PM	Pearl of Power I I realize this is sort of offtopic, but you know you can't use these, right? At least not with your sorcerer spells.
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 09:42 PM	I realize this is sort of offtopic, but you know you can't use these, right? At least not with your sorcerer spells. I can't and I don't. They're for party members.
TWG_Prometheus 02-21-07, 09:43 PM	Even if it was Open you couldn't take it. Mindbender is restriced to non-Good. Unless you can get starmetal (for Green Star Adept) you're going to be stuck with Sorc 5. You should, actually, get Sorc 6 (so Pal 2 / Sorc 5 / Spellsword 1 / Sorc +1) and going straight Spellsword after that isn't a bad idea. You don't qualify for Craft Magic Arms and Armor and will need to swap it out immediately. Swap it for Retributive Spell. You should also ditch Whirling Blade at level 8. Get False Life then. I suggest you continue with: 7 Sorceror spells gained: bladeweave, grease 8 Spellsword spells gained: haste 9 Sorceror Blade of Force spells gained: tiny hut or greater mage armor, invisibility, enlarge person 10 Eldritch Knight f 11 Eldritch Knight spells gained: orb of force or dimension door or stoneskin or black tentacles or enervation or greater invisibility 12 Eldritch Knight Arcane Strike and continue with Eldritch Knight. Do you have a source for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor thing? I made the build before any of this ambiguity with Practised Spellcaster came up and I think I may have seen the same thing you're talking about myself, but I don't know where, and without some reference binding on the campaign I CAN'T just swap it out immediately.
Mommy was an Orc 02-22-07, 09:19 AM	Do you have a source for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor thing? I made the build before any of this ambiguity with Practised Spellcaster came up and I think I may have seen the same thing you're talking about myself, but I don't know where, and without some reference binding on the campaign I CAN'T just swap it out immediately. You shouldn't have to either. Complete Arcane on two levels allows this: Practiced Spellcaster and page 72 where they spell out that simply having a caster level of 3rd is all that's necessary to get Craft Wondrous Item. The FAQ ruling applies to when a PrC says either 'arcane caster level' or 'divine caster level', as they mean 'levels in a caster class' when they say that. When they only say 'caster level', then they mean 'caster level'. If you ask CustServ about this, they'll tell you that Acolyte of the Skin can be qualified for with Practiced Spellcaster, because it only requires caster level 5th - not arcane or divine caster level 5th.
TWG_Prometheus 02-22-07, 06:20 PM	OK I think I have the Craft Magic Arms and Armor thing figured out now. While I don't understand why anyone would suggest that a Gish should give up Whirling Blade, there's been a number of good suggestions. Retributive Spell and Blade of Force are both interesting...anything that could possibly hope to push Arcane Strike back would be, and I need to finish up my check for PrCs that I could qualify for in the place of Sorcerer 5 and 6 for completeness. I really need to get a Complete Mage. Any other suggestions?
boogahwoof 02-22-07, 07:38 PM	just a note on the ac issues 1 i am not sure of this, but since you have sorcerer levels and warmages also cast spont, can you have a level of warmage and cast your sor spells in light armor with no failure chance. because if that is so take 1 warmage level (combined with the feat battlecaster) and theres your way to wear mithril full plate with no casting failure. since battlecaster lets you wear 1 size heavier armor with no casting failure, and mithril full would be considered medium armor. 2 if you have a feat available take improved buckler defence, take a -1 to your attacks (usually made up by haste or bless even at the apl 8 tables) to recieve all those +6 to ac you should have from crafting that nifty +5 buckler for yourself.
jstorrie 02-22-07, 07:53 PM	Warmages can only cast Warmage spells in light armor, so 1) is false. Improved Buckler Defense is pretty nice, but you may be a bit feat-starved. The only PrC I can think of instead of Sor 5-6 is Ruathar. Check to see if you have access or any local meta-orgs that offer it.
TWG_Prometheus 02-24-07, 11:16 AM	just a note on the ac issues 1 i am not sure of this, but since you have sorcerer levels and warmages also cast spont, can you have a level of warmage and cast your sor spells in light armor with no failure chance. because if that is so take 1 warmage level (combined with the feat battlecaster) and theres your way to wear mithril full plate with no casting failure. since battlecaster lets you wear 1 size heavier armor with no casting failure, and mithril full would be considered medium armor. 2 if you have a feat available take improved buckler defence, take a -1 to your attacks (usually made up by haste or bless even at the apl 8 tables) to recieve all those +6 to ac you should have from crafting that nifty +5 buckler for yourself. #1 I couldn't use Battlecaster anyway. It requires the ability to use some form of armor without ASF to begin with and I don't have that. The method of reducing ASF for Wizards and Sorcerers is through classes like Spellsword, that let you ignore part of your ASF directly. Spellsword 1 gives 10%, enough for a mithril chain shirt, and by Spellsword 7 you can have 25%, enough for mithril fullplate. Going that far into Spellsword would kind of destroy my casting ability to begin with, so I'd really have to want to do something specific to go that route. It's a little easier on the Fighter 1/Wizard 6 builds. #2 Due to some unfortunate wording on Improved Buckler Defense, I might see table variation on whether I could use that feat with a two-handed weapon. If I do decide to go with a buckler for boosting my armor, I'd switch from using a Greatsword to a Longsword, which I still could use two-handed if desired for extra damage. Once you're running Arcane Strike, however, most of the damage work is done for you, and it might be worth it to just wield the sword one-handed and rely on hitting more often. It's a decent option to keep in mind, though. For jstorrie's post: No Ruathar's seen anywhere in my area. I just did a mission for some elves, but no dice. They hate me. *cry* Just started Red Hand of Doom. No deaths yet! (So far) Wish me luck!
jstorrie 02-24-07, 04:23 PM	You should not expect table variation of Improved Buckler Defense. Any DM that rules against it is flat out wrong - this issue was beat to death on Infinite Monkeys a long time ago.
dkay807 02-25-07, 11:40 AM	#1 I couldn't use Battlecaster anyway. It requires the ability to use some form of armor without ASF to begin with and I don't have that. The method of reducing ASF for Wizards and Sorcerers is through classes like Spellsword, that let you ignore part of your ASF directly. Spellsword 1 gives 10%, enough for a mithril chain shirt, and by Spellsword 7 you can have 25%, enough for mithril fullplate. Going that far into Spellsword would kind of destroy my casting ability to begin with, so I'd really have to want to do something specific to go that route. It's a little easier on the Fighter 1/Wizard 6 builds. #2 Due to some unfortunate wording on Improved Buckler Defense, I might see table variation on whether I could use that feat with a two-handed weapon. If I do decide to go with a buckler for boosting my armor, I'd switch from using a Greatsword to a Longsword, which I still could use two-handed if desired for extra damage. Once you're running Arcane Strike, however, most of the damage work is done for you, and it might be worth it to just wield the sword one-handed and rely on hitting more often. It's a decent option to keep in mind, though. For jstorrie's post: No Ruathar's seen anywhere in my area. I just did a mission for some elves, but no dice. They hate me. *cry* Just started Red Hand of Doom. No deaths yet! (So far) Wish me luck! It really depends on what you want to do with the PC. There's a clear difference between a fighter that casts spells and a spellcaster that fights. Your PC is already set up to be a great melee combatant that can cast spells to aid his melee abilities. The first thing I would suggest is to not put any more points into charisma. It's already too high for what you need it for. You need to raise your strength. Second, I would go full spellsword all the way. Consider this... you're only 2 BAB off from full and you'll be able to utilize arcane strike every single round. Additionally, you'll be able to make use of spells that most melee PCs only dream of being able to use (and thus, buy all sorts of items to duplicate) - Fly, Dimension Door, Displacement, etc. I'm a big fan of Mirror Image, myself. I play a Fighter 2/Wizard 4/Spellsword 9 and he doles out more damage than any fighter I've played with. The Paladin/Sorcerer build is different in the following ways: + Your saves are much higher + You have many more spells per day for use with Arcane Strike - You get access to higher level spells more slowly - You can't cast as many spells (which isn't too big a deal... you don't need many) Just stick with Spellsword and you'll be alright, IMO. Now if you want to go with a more concentrated caster build, that's a different story. I would take 3 levels of Spellsword and then transition straight to Eldritch Knight.
Zanzibax 02-27-07, 11:45 AM	I actually took an archer build for my spellsword -> eldritch knight.
Vamroc 02-28-07, 01:44 AM	Warforged Duskblade 5/ Monk 6 Spellsword 1. Yeah I know you can reach Spellsword faster if you just keep the Duskblade levels. However you wouldn't be able to Arcane Channel through your Flurry of Blows. Or have Mithril plating on top of your AC bonus for wisdom and dex. If you get Good stats you could have a twenty three AC a first level. Add the Practiced Spellcaster feat and you only lose three caster levels. Swift Fly and Slow Fall is an awesome combo this gives you a 90 foot cushin should you fall from a cliff or bridge. Every touch spell you Arcane Channel you add 1D8 unarmed damage plus strength mod. Because your fists are considered Melee Weapons in theory you could use Blades of Blood. Because it never requires that you have a blade merely that you touch the weapon in question. Now all you have to do is hit touch ACs to do 8D6+1D8+Stength mod.
Timlagor 03-01-07, 09:33 AM	The FAQ ruling applies to when a PrC says either 'arcane caster level' or 'divine caster level', as they mean 'levels in a caster class' when they say that. When they only say 'caster level', then they mean 'caster level'. They also made such a hash of it that the FAQ wording doesn't actually apply to any existing PrC ..unless they've corrected it in the latest version.
Mommy was an Orc 03-01-07, 12:01 PM	They also made such a hash of it that the FAQ wording doesn't actually apply to any existing PrC ..unless they've corrected it in the latest version. Oh, I agree with that - but in considerations of builds there are two issues: RAI - a lot of people will assume that's what's required. No fun being told by a majority that your build is illegal. I'd rule that way, though if someone was at my table, I'd try to make a good faith attempt to find a workaround. RAW - it will probably change at some point, blowing up builds.