Shadow Elemental Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadow Elemental Feats [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_m_
10-23-06, 08:31 PM Lets just say i have a large shadow elemental (tome of magic, page... um... 159 i think) as a companion animal / familiar style thingy (advances as per an elemental mm, gains skills, feats, HD, BAB, junk like that as per usual), and its attack is a number of 1d8+something incorporel touch attacks.

other than giving it more attacks... what can i give it to give it more damage?
as a shadow elemental, it has no strength, so it can use any big hit attacks (and it couldnt anyway, it makes touch attacks).
can i weapon focus its touch?
specialisation?
can you critical a touch?
would flyby attack (it has fly as its movement. 40 ft if i recall) be any use?
can i increase it like a natural weapon? (1d8 becomes 2d6)?
ideas?
Arvagor, im looking your way on this one, since you seem somehow to be following me around the forums, answering everything that moves :D

cheers.
Arvagor
10-23-06, 09:58 PM Arvagor, im looking your way on this one, since you seem somehow to be following me around the forums, answering everything that moves :DOnly because I myself have a PC that has "shadow" enhancements from the Tome of Magic, so I've explored that section a great deal ;) (that, and I contemplated using some of the contents for a mod I wrote...)

As far as feats, IMO the shadow elemental could take whatever feats are available for other familiars (see page 29 of the LGCS). 'More damage' ususally means taking the Improved Natural Attack feat; that would increase a large shadow elemental's touch attack damage from 1d8 to 2d6. Weapon Focus can also be used to get another +1 to hit. You might also look to some of the larger shadow elementals to see what feats they get for ideas...
_m_
10-23-06, 10:06 PM cool. the bit i was worried about was weather an un-natural creature qualifies as having natural attacks:

also: can it use 2 weapon fighting? kind of like a monk, to take advantage of the fact that (surprise surprise) it has 2 hands.

and heres another one: whilst its incorporeal, i still think that incorporeals can have equipment. In the same manner that a normal companion animal can be barded, is there any reason, if i had access, that i couldnt give him armour? maybe ghost touch? the problem i can see (ok, theres a bunch of problems... like being incorporeal) is that it has no str characteristic.

oh, and since a touch is an attack... would it be able to critical? on a 20? for x2? could i take, whats it called, um... improved crit i think it is, and crit on a 19-20?
Arvagor
10-23-06, 10:36 PM cool. the bit i was worried about was weather an un-natural creature qualifies as having natural attacks:A natural attack is, for all intents and purposes, any attack that is not a manufactured weapon; I believe the phrase used in the Monster Manual is "Natural weapons are weapons that are part of a creature" or something similar.

oh, and since a touch is an attack... would it be able to critical? on a 20? for x2? could i take, whats it called, um... improved crit i think it is, and crit on a 19-20?Yes; see the nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) as an example of such a creature in the MM.
_m_
10-23-06, 10:39 PM ok, so incorporeals cant interact with corporeal things other than touch attacks. cant grapple, cant trip. Can temporarily with a shadowmaster feat, but thats not relevant for the following:

ghost touch armour protects from incorporeals, because it exists simultaneously on the shadow plane. As such, the incorporeals interact with it, and it provides an ac bonus vs them.

on the same note, could an incorporeal wear ghost touch armour?

oh, and a friend of mine just pointed out that fling ally is a legal feat for a familiar... does anyone else find the idea of a tiny gnomes giant familiar throwing party members into combat slightly ammusing?
Japangirl
10-24-06, 01:30 AM Because I have seen ghosts with ghost touch armor and weapons using them to beat up parties, I suspect that yes, you can give your shadow ghost touch armor and it will provide the appropriate AC bonus. I am not positive however, and am feeling too lazy to actually look it up.
_m_
10-24-06, 01:37 AM another query about this confusing guy:

because it has no strength (str: - ) but can interact with coropreal as a special ability, how does it pick things up? and whats its weight limit?

i mean, i know ive seen ghosts pick things up and use things etc, but they dont have a strength.

can you fling ally with a creature with no strength? what happens if you bulls strength it?
Arvagor
10-24-06, 02:28 AM because it has no strength (str: - ) but can interact with coropreal as a special ability, how does it pick things up? and whats its weight limit?
...
can you fling ally with a creature with no strength? what happens if you bulls strength it?Per the writeup on page 122, it can perform simple tasks only, "in a manner identical to the unseen servant spell. Reading that spell, you'll see that an unseen servant has an effective strength of 2, so no ally flinging for you! ;)

Actually, you need to read all the feat prerequisites for Fling Ally, which the elemental wouldn't meet regardless: Strength 19, Rock Hurling (another feat) or the racial ability to hurl rocks
_m_
10-24-06, 02:32 AM Per the writeup on page 122, it can perform simple tasks only, "in a manner identical to the unseen servant spell. Reading that spell, you'll see that an unseen servant has an effective strength of 2, so no ally flinging for you! ;)

Actually, you need to read all the feat prerequisites for Fling Ally, which the elemental wouldn't meet regardless: Strength 19, Rock Hurling (another feat) or the racial ability to hurl rocks

ah. thanks *shakes fist at silly friend*. so can you bulls strength an unseen servant?

lol, does anyone find the image of a HUGE shadowy demon looking elemental, bristling with power and scaryness, being unable to pick up a large block of cheese, fairly funny?
Arvagor
10-24-06, 03:15 AM ah. thanks *shakes fist at silly friend*. so can you bulls strength an unseen servant?IMO, no. Despite it having an "effective" strength score for interacting with objects, the elemental itself is still incorporeal, and therefore has no Strength score. Remember, no Strength score is not the same as Strength 0; adding +4 to Strength -- (from bull's strength) is still Stength -- .

Besides, as it is incorporeal, how would you touch it to deliver the spell? :)

Because it is incorporeal, its attack bonus is based on Dexterity; extra strength would not help the elemental in any way. If, for whatever reason, a judge ruled that the Corporeal effect was substantial enough that it could use Strength to attack, you're actually worse off, as a stength of 2 would turn your +7 attack, dealing 1d8 damage (which takes into account HD and Dex) into a +1 attack, dealing 1d8-4 damage.
_m_
10-24-06, 08:39 AM ok, almost finished things i wanted to know. can you think of any feats to take advantage of its dex, in regards to combat?

im gonna get imp nat weapons, flyby, and multi attack, but thats all i had set in stone so far
Gelth
10-25-06, 01:37 PM Besides, as it is incorporeal, how would you touch it to deliver the spell? :)

You can touch incorporeals just fine, and even hit them with nonmagical weapons and such, they just ignore damage from many sources.
Incorporeal does /not/ give a miss chance, no matter what people think, it gives a chance to ignore damage from some sources, and automatically ignores damage from some other sources. That's it.

--Penn, Ket Triad
Arvagor
10-25-06, 02:39 PM Incorporeal does /not/ give a miss chance, no matter what people think, it gives a chance to ignore damage from some sources, and automatically ignores damage from some other sources. That's it.Yes, I know... I guess I should have used ;) instead of :) ...
_m_
11-01-06, 05:38 PM hey, can incorporeals interact with things that have the dark template, or do they need the incorporeal type as well?
Arvagor
11-01-06, 08:16 PM They can interact with them however they interact with any other creature -- namely, if the creature with the dark template is corporeal, then it's the same as any other incorporeal vs. corporeal interaction; if they creature with the dark template is incorporeal, then it's the same as any other incorporeal vs. incorporeal interaction.
_m_
11-01-06, 08:30 PM cool, thanks.
Lomiat
11-02-06, 01:25 PM Consider scribing Nightstalker's Transformation into your spellbook if you have access to 5th level spells.

You can choose to make your familiar the target instead of yourself, and for the price of a potion of Cat's Grace, you can give your familiar +4 DEX, weapon finesse, +3 Luck bonus to AC, and +3d6 sneak dice.

Drawback? It can't cast spells while transformed.

.... bummer...
_m_
11-02-06, 05:08 PM not a bad idea...

it already has finese inately, but the sneak attack is nice. Ac aint a great deal of a problem, given its incorporeal and all, but still, its a cool plan.

unfourtunately, i dont get level 5 spells for a while yet. in fact, for another 2 levels, i dont even have level 4 spells. i did, but they're gone again.

il end up with...

3 wiz 2 geometer 3 shadowcaster 3 master of shadow 1 template 3 nocturnmancer, if i recall correctly, with practised caster on the wiz.

which is 9 wizard (at 13 caster lvl), 7 shadowcaster. so il got my level 5 spells at... level 15.

i do have fort familliar, aug familiar, and a chunk of other buffs i can give the thing. given its level compared to mine, it gonna be stupidly hard to kill: incorporeal (run away... through the floor), decent ac anyway, and a big chunk of hp (not half mine, more like double mine :D), and can get 1 every 24 hours or so, so no biggy even if it does go down.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_m_ 10-23-06, 08:31 PM	Lets just say i have a large shadow elemental (tome of magic, page... um... 159 i think) as a companion animal / familiar style thingy (advances as per an elemental mm, gains skills, feats, HD, BAB, junk like that as per usual), and its attack is a number of 1d8+something incorporel touch attacks. other than giving it more attacks... what can i give it to give it more damage? as a shadow elemental, it has no strength, so it can use any big hit attacks (and it couldnt anyway, it makes touch attacks). can i weapon focus its touch? specialisation? can you critical a touch? would flyby attack (it has fly as its movement. 40 ft if i recall) be any use? can i increase it like a natural weapon? (1d8 becomes 2d6)? ideas? Arvagor, im looking your way on this one, since you seem somehow to be following me around the forums, answering everything that moves :D cheers.
Arvagor 10-23-06, 09:58 PM	Arvagor, im looking your way on this one, since you seem somehow to be following me around the forums, answering everything that moves :DOnly because I myself have a PC that has "shadow" enhancements from the Tome of Magic, so I've explored that section a great deal ;) (that, and I contemplated using some of the contents for a mod I wrote...) As far as feats, IMO the shadow elemental could take whatever feats are available for other familiars (see page 29 of the LGCS). 'More damage' ususally means taking the Improved Natural Attack feat; that would increase a large shadow elemental's touch attack damage from 1d8 to 2d6. Weapon Focus can also be used to get another +1 to hit. You might also look to some of the larger shadow elementals to see what feats they get for ideas...
_m_ 10-23-06, 10:06 PM	cool. the bit i was worried about was weather an un-natural creature qualifies as having natural attacks: also: can it use 2 weapon fighting? kind of like a monk, to take advantage of the fact that (surprise surprise) it has 2 hands. and heres another one: whilst its incorporeal, i still think that incorporeals can have equipment. In the same manner that a normal companion animal can be barded, is there any reason, if i had access, that i couldnt give him armour? maybe ghost touch? the problem i can see (ok, theres a bunch of problems... like being incorporeal) is that it has no str characteristic. oh, and since a touch is an attack... would it be able to critical? on a 20? for x2? could i take, whats it called, um... improved crit i think it is, and crit on a 19-20?
Arvagor 10-23-06, 10:36 PM	cool. the bit i was worried about was weather an un-natural creature qualifies as having natural attacks:A natural attack is, for all intents and purposes, any attack that is not a manufactured weapon; I believe the phrase used in the Monster Manual is "Natural weapons are weapons that are part of a creature" or something similar. oh, and since a touch is an attack... would it be able to critical? on a 20? for x2? could i take, whats it called, um... improved crit i think it is, and crit on a 19-20?Yes; see the nightcrawler (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/nightshade.htm#nightcrawler) as an example of such a creature in the MM.
_m_ 10-23-06, 10:39 PM	ok, so incorporeals cant interact with corporeal things other than touch attacks. cant grapple, cant trip. Can temporarily with a shadowmaster feat, but thats not relevant for the following: ghost touch armour protects from incorporeals, because it exists simultaneously on the shadow plane. As such, the incorporeals interact with it, and it provides an ac bonus vs them. on the same note, could an incorporeal wear ghost touch armour? oh, and a friend of mine just pointed out that fling ally is a legal feat for a familiar... does anyone else find the idea of a tiny gnomes giant familiar throwing party members into combat slightly ammusing?
Japangirl 10-24-06, 01:30 AM	Because I have seen ghosts with ghost touch armor and weapons using them to beat up parties, I suspect that yes, you can give your shadow ghost touch armor and it will provide the appropriate AC bonus. I am not positive however, and am feeling too lazy to actually look it up.
_m_ 10-24-06, 01:37 AM	another query about this confusing guy: because it has no strength (str: - ) but can interact with coropreal as a special ability, how does it pick things up? and whats its weight limit? i mean, i know ive seen ghosts pick things up and use things etc, but they dont have a strength. can you fling ally with a creature with no strength? what happens if you bulls strength it?
Arvagor 10-24-06, 02:28 AM	because it has no strength (str: - ) but can interact with coropreal as a special ability, how does it pick things up? and whats its weight limit? ... can you fling ally with a creature with no strength? what happens if you bulls strength it?Per the writeup on page 122, it can perform simple tasks only, "in a manner identical to the unseen servant spell. Reading that spell, you'll see that an unseen servant has an effective strength of 2, so no ally flinging for you! ;) Actually, you need to read all the feat prerequisites for Fling Ally, which the elemental wouldn't meet regardless: Strength 19, Rock Hurling (another feat) or the racial ability to hurl rocks
_m_ 10-24-06, 02:32 AM	Per the writeup on page 122, it can perform simple tasks only, "in a manner identical to the unseen servant spell. Reading that spell, you'll see that an unseen servant has an effective strength of 2, so no ally flinging for you! ;) Actually, you need to read all the feat prerequisites for Fling Ally, which the elemental wouldn't meet regardless: Strength 19, Rock Hurling (another feat) or the racial ability to hurl rocks ah. thanks shakes fist at silly friend. so can you bulls strength an unseen servant? lol, does anyone find the image of a HUGE shadowy demon looking elemental, bristling with power and scaryness, being unable to pick up a large block of cheese, fairly funny?
Arvagor 10-24-06, 03:15 AM	ah. thanks shakes fist at silly friend. so can you bulls strength an unseen servant?IMO, no. Despite it having an "effective" strength score for interacting with objects, the elemental itself is still incorporeal, and therefore has no Strength score. Remember, no Strength score is not the same as Strength 0; adding +4 to Strength -- (from bull's strength) is still Stength -- . Besides, as it is incorporeal, how would you touch it to deliver the spell? :) Because it is incorporeal, its attack bonus is based on Dexterity; extra strength would not help the elemental in any way. If, for whatever reason, a judge ruled that the Corporeal effect was substantial enough that it could use Strength to attack, you're actually worse off, as a stength of 2 would turn your +7 attack, dealing 1d8 damage (which takes into account HD and Dex) into a +1 attack, dealing 1d8-4 damage.
_m_ 10-24-06, 08:39 AM	ok, almost finished things i wanted to know. can you think of any feats to take advantage of its dex, in regards to combat? im gonna get imp nat weapons, flyby, and multi attack, but thats all i had set in stone so far
Gelth 10-25-06, 01:37 PM	Besides, as it is incorporeal, how would you touch it to deliver the spell? :) You can touch incorporeals just fine, and even hit them with nonmagical weapons and such, they just ignore damage from many sources. Incorporeal does /not/ give a miss chance, no matter what people think, it gives a chance to ignore damage from some sources, and automatically ignores damage from some other sources. That's it. --Penn, Ket Triad
Arvagor 10-25-06, 02:39 PM	Incorporeal does /not/ give a miss chance, no matter what people think, it gives a chance to ignore damage from some sources, and automatically ignores damage from some other sources. That's it.Yes, I know... I guess I should have used ;) instead of :) ...
_m_ 11-01-06, 05:38 PM	hey, can incorporeals interact with things that have the dark template, or do they need the incorporeal type as well?
Arvagor 11-01-06, 08:16 PM	They can interact with them however they interact with any other creature -- namely, if the creature with the dark template is corporeal, then it's the same as any other incorporeal vs. corporeal interaction; if they creature with the dark template is incorporeal, then it's the same as any other incorporeal vs. incorporeal interaction.
_m_ 11-01-06, 08:30 PM	cool, thanks.
Lomiat 11-02-06, 01:25 PM	Consider scribing Nightstalker's Transformation into your spellbook if you have access to 5th level spells. You can choose to make your familiar the target instead of yourself, and for the price of a potion of Cat's Grace, you can give your familiar +4 DEX, weapon finesse, +3 Luck bonus to AC, and +3d6 sneak dice. Drawback? It can't cast spells while transformed. .... bummer...
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:08 PM	not a bad idea... it already has finese inately, but the sneak attack is nice. Ac aint a great deal of a problem, given its incorporeal and all, but still, its a cool plan. unfourtunately, i dont get level 5 spells for a while yet. in fact, for another 2 levels, i dont even have level 4 spells. i did, but they're gone again. il end up with... 3 wiz 2 geometer 3 shadowcaster 3 master of shadow 1 template 3 nocturnmancer, if i recall correctly, with practised caster on the wiz. which is 9 wizard (at 13 caster lvl), 7 shadowcaster. so il got my level 5 spells at... level 15. i do have fort familliar, aug familiar, and a chunk of other buffs i can give the thing. given its level compared to mine, it gonna be stupidly hard to kill: incorporeal (run away... through the floor), decent ac anyway, and a big chunk of hp (not half mine, more like double mine :D), and can get 1 every 24 hours or so, so no biggy even if it does go down.