Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suvarov454 05-06-07, 01:55 PM	I have a Dwarven Ftr1/Cle2 of Moradin building towards Battlesmith. I recently charted his future career, identifying the classes and feats he'll take and the equipment he will buy (or, more accurately, craft). I realized that if I had taken the War domain, I could free up my Weapon Focus feat, and pull forward several feat chains by three levels, so I will be retraining at level 4 and 5. The question is what should I retrain Weapon Focus *into*? I have been suffering at the hands of large-sized grapplers (of the acquatic variety, worst of all!), so I was planning of going for Shield Specialization, with Shield Ward coming at level 5 (when I take my second level of Fighter), and Heavy Armor Optimization at the level 12 (the Ftr4 feat will be Wpn Spec, and the level 9 feat will be Melee Wpn Mastery). Then I realized that I could take Combat Focus, followed by Combat Stability and get nearly the same effect (one less shield bonus to AC and no shield bonus to touch AC, better Will save). Better still, it would then lead into Combat Vigor (at level 12, due to BAB requirements), giving me Fast Healing. Because of crafting, his enhancement to shield AC at level 12 will be +5, so the increased bonus to grapple et al. given by Combat Stability from having the third Combat Focus feat will equal to the bonus to grapple et al. given by from Shield Ward; therefore, the differences between the two feat chains would be: Shield Spec/Shield Ward/Hvy. Armor Opt -- two bonuses to AC, shield bonus to touch AC, and 1 reduction of the skill penalty from armor versus Combat Focus/Cbt Stability/Cbt Vigor -- +4 to Will save and Fast Healing 4. So what would you rather have at level 12? Two better AC and shield bonus to touch AC, or +4 to Will save and Fast Healing 4? Don't forget, he won't get any of the combat focus bonuses until he hits something in combat, and they all end at the end of combat; the Shield Spec/Shield Ward/Hvy. Armor Opt bonuses apply even when flat footed.
GorTeX 05-06-07, 03:19 PM	Close Quarters Fighting. Lets you take an AOO against a grappler (even one with improved grapple or improved grab) and apply the damage dealt to the grapple check if they touch you. Potentially much better than +2 or 3 to Touch AC...as they are probably still going to touch you.
jstorrie 05-06-07, 03:56 PM	Are you really going to want to drop that much money on a +5 shield? Even with crafting, that's a very poor decision, especially as early as level 12. I'd lean towards Combat Stability, myself. It's more reasonable to assume that you'll have a +2 or +3 shield at level 12, making Shield Ward less of a priority. It's still a good feat (and it wouldn't hurt to have both!) but the Combat Focus chain is much better if you have the wisdom for it. What are you planning on building into Battlesmith with? Are you going to take 5 levels, or just dip 1? If you're taking all five levels, and thus not focusing much on your caster levels, I'd definitely recommend you get to Fighter 4 or Pious Templar 3 for Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery.
dkay807 05-06-07, 08:17 PM	Considering I'm the DM that almost got you with that creature, I'll weigh in on this one! I would not recommend Shield Ward... it probably won't help you enough to be worth a feat. The combat form feats are really cool if you take three of them. I'd recommend Combat Focus, Combat Dodge and Combat Stability, but I think I recall your character lacking the dex for Combat Dodge (it has a great synergy with Titan Fighting, which is a great feat as well for a Dwarf with Dodge). Go for the combat form feats!
Suvarov454 05-06-07, 10:37 PM	Are you really going to want to drop that much money on a +5 shield? Even with crafting, that's a very poor decision, especially as early as level 12. I'd lean towards Combat Stability, myself. It's more reasonable to assume that you'll have a +2 or +3 shield at level 12, making Shield Ward less of a priority. It's still a good feat (and it wouldn't hurt to have both!) but the Combat Focus chain is much better if you have the wisdom for it. Actually, going from a +4 shield to a +5 shield only costs 4,500 GP if you have Craft Arms and Armor, whereas going from a +1 ring to +2 costs 6,000 GP if you don't have Craft Ring. I'm only taking 3 levels of real caster (see below), so I can't take Craft Ring, so it really is more economical to max out the shield (and armor) bonuses. I'm even considering taking Arrow Catching (costs 5,500 GP... still cheaper than getting the Ring of Prot to +2) for the ultimate in providing cover to squishy casters and archers. Assuming, of course, that I go with Shield Ward and/or don't want more of the "utility" items. :confused: What are you planning on building into Battlesmith with? Are you going to take 5 levels, or just dip 1? If you're taking all five levels, and thus not focusing much on your caster levels, I'd definitely recommend you get to Fighter 4 or Pious Templar 3 for Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery. ;) Actually, I mentioned that I'm going Fighter 4 to pick up Wpn Spec (at level 7) and MWM at level 9. I was only going to pick up 4 levels of Battlesmith. With my 3 level of Cleric, I can craft the +5 equipment I want with only those 4 levels, I think the 5th level class feature is pretty lame, and quitting early lets me get up to Fighter 8 to take Greater Weapon Focus at 15th level. If it helps, my original plan for the Shield Spec/Shield Ward build was to take Heavy Armor Optimization as the 12th level feat, and Greater Hvy Armor Opt as the Ftr6 feat at level 13. The level 15 and Ftr8 feats would be Crushing Strike and Greater Wpn Spec (Warhammer). My plan for the Combat Focus/Combat Stability build would be Combat Vigor at 12th level, but the Ftr6, Ftr8, and level 15 feats are pretty open. I could take Shield Spec as Ftr6 and Shield Ward as Ftr 8 (and have to choose between Crushing Strike and GWS for the 15th level feat), or I could change my original plan and take the combat focus tree as the higher level feats (Vigor or Stability as the Ftr6 feat?). Of course, if I can take the Dwarven racial substitution for 4th level Cleric (+2 damage with warhammers for a 2nd level spell slot... no contest)!
Suvarov454 05-06-07, 10:58 PM	Considering I'm the DM that almost got you with that creature, I'll weigh in on this one! I would not recommend Shield Ward... it probably won't help you enough to be worth a feat. The combat form feats are really cool if you take three of them. I'd recommend Combat Focus, Combat Dodge and Combat Stability, but I think I recall your character lacking the dex for Combat Dodge (it has a great synergy with Titan Fighting, which is a great feat as well for a Dwarf with Dodge). Go for the combat form feats! Ah yes! But in that case you know that any feat that requires me to hit something to get the bonus is completely useless to me! :D As for not helping enough, every bit contributes. By 12th level, I'll have a Heavy Shield +5, a Dex bonus to AC of +1 (due to Gloves), a Ring of Prot +2, a class feature granting +2 sacred bonus to AC, and a Defending Warhammer (only +1 or +2, at this point though). A total touch AC of 24 or 25 at level 12, but only with Shield Ward. Not much help against the Large Grappler type, I suppose. A bit better against a 12th level rayist I hope (+6 BAB, +5 Dex, Wpn Spec (rays) means a target of 12 or 13).
jstorrie 05-07-07, 12:28 AM	I would definitely suggest you try to special mission for the Cleric substitution level. Does your region have any dwarf clans or the like? If your triad is amenable, a 'quest for the clan' sort of thing would pay off a lot.
Southernskies 05-07-07, 06:56 AM	Actually, going from a +4 shield to a +5 shield only costs 4,500 GP if you have Craft Arms and Armor, whereas going from a +1 ring to +2 costs 6,000 GP if you don't have Craft Ring. I'm only taking 3 levels of real caster (see below), so I can't take Craft Ring, so it really is more economical to max out the shield (and armor) bonuses. I'm even considering taking Arrow Catching (costs 5,500 GP... still cheaper than getting the Ring of Prot to +2) for the ultimate in providing cover to squishy casters and archers. I should point out, that if you're planning to take Craft Arms and Armor, that it requires you to have a higher caster level than you plan upon. DMG pg217 Caster Level for Armor and Shields: The caster level of a magic shield or magic armor with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. This is one of the worst written pre-req's in the DMG (unlike the actual special abilities), but is consistant with all of the other +1 to +5 enhancement items (bracers of armor, ring of protection, amulet of mighty fists, cloak of resistance).
ThaiGQ 05-07-07, 07:16 AM	I should point out, that if you're planning to take Craft Arms and Armor, that it requires you to have a higher caster level than you plan upon. DMG pg217 This is one of the worst written pre-req's in the DMG (unlike the actual special abilities), but is consistant with all of the other +1 to +5 enhancement items (bracers of armor, ring of protection, amulet of mighty fists, cloak of resistance). Actually, the Battlesmith receives Craft Arms and Armor for free and the Battlesmith levels are multiplied by 3 for determining effective caster level for crafting magic arms and armor, so with Cleric3/Battlesmith4, he'd have an effective caster level of 15. He'd be able to craft the +5 Shield...but he probably wouldn't be able to add the Arrow-Catching ability on top of that.
Suvarov454 05-07-07, 07:59 AM	Actually, the Battlesmith receives Craft Arms and Armor for free and the Battlesmith levels are multiplied by 3 for determining effective caster level for crafting magic arms and armor, so with Cleric3/Battlesmith4, he'd have an effective caster level of 15. He'd be able to craft the +5 Shield...but he probably wouldn't be able to add the Arrow-Catching ability on top of that. Correct (except the prereq for Arrow Catching is only Entropic Shield... a level 1 cleric spell)! Thanks for answering for me.
Suvarov454 05-07-07, 08:06 AM	I would definitely suggest you try to special mission for the Cleric substitution level. Does your region have any dwarf clans or the like? If your triad is amenable, a 'quest for the clan' sort of thing would pay off a lot. Two problems with that: first, he's clanless (it's part of his backstory... that only I know... a disadvantage of being in a shared campaign is the lack of any character development that doesn't fit on an AR :rolleyes:); second, I'm expecting that I'll need a SM to get access to a Dwarvencraft hammer (the prereq of Battlesmith).
TWG_Prometheus 05-07-07, 08:20 AM	The only thing I'd add is that only getting Shield Ward or getting Combat Stability is only a partial solution. You get a nice fat bonus against grapples from them both, but is it enough to compete with the big grapple monsters? I think we both know the answer to that question... The solution I prefer most is getting both Shield Ward and Close-Quarters Combat. It's a three-feat solution that can be completed by level 3 (for Fighters) if desired, and while the bonus from Shield Ward may be less than Combat Stability overall, the one-feat addition of Close-Quarters Combat gives the biggest potential bonus you'll see against grapple checks anywhere that I'm aware of. The Combat Stability chain takes longer to complete, uses up the same amount of feats, and lacks any sort of protection against touch attacks generally. It also provides no benefit whatsoever until you've hit a bad guy, if I remember the Combat feat wording correctly. Big grapple monsters are quite likely to be the ones to get first blood on you. Of course, for an actual Fighter, the answer is probably....yes. If you really want Grapple protection you can afford to get Shield Ward, Close Quarters Combat and Combat Stability but that takes a while even for a Fighter. A mutted Cleric/Battlesmith/Fighter might not have as much luck with that.
bitznarf 05-07-07, 09:13 AM	second, I'm expecting that I'll need a SM to get access to a Dwarvencraft hammer (the prereq of Battlesmith). As I understand it, triads cannot give out item access through a special mission. I could be wrong however. You might want to double check that it is possible to do before you find out at level 7 1/2 that you may have to redesign a little bit.
Suvarov454 05-07-07, 01:35 PM	Hmm... Close Quarters Combat... I'll have to look at that feat again. Thanks for the tip (even if it does add more options to an already murky situation :D)! :eek: No item access via Special Missions?!? :( Yeah, I'll have to look into that fairly soon. There are a couple of mods I'm hoping to play this month that sound like they may have some dwarfy access in their ARs. From reading these fora, I know that at least one region has handed out access to Dwarvencraft weapons. My Ftr/Cle is just about to gain Level 4, and will probably run out of TUs before (or just after) gaining Level 5 so I have some time (calendar, as well as career) to get the access I want.
GorTeX 05-07-07, 09:30 PM	As I understand it, triads cannot give out item access through a special mission. I could be wrong however. You might want to double check that it is possible to do before you find out at level 7 1/2 that you may have to redesign a little bit. Yet you can do a SM for a PrC pre-requisite. Since having a Dwarven Crafted Warhammer is a pre-reg for Battle smith, shouldn't you be allowed to do a SM for it? (I was lucky--I got access relatively early for my soon to be battlesmith)
bitznarf 05-07-07, 09:45 PM	Yet you can do a SM for a PrC pre-requisite. Since having a Dwarven Crafted Warhammer is a pre-reg for Battle smith, shouldn't you be allowed to do a SM for it? (I was lucky--I got access relatively early for my soon to be battlesmith) I have seen several triad members from different regions say that they cannot give out item access. Thats really all I know. I don't think that 'meeting a prerequisite' is enough to bypass the apparent restriction. I would just recommend checking with ones triad before relying on the option.
Dr.Cornelius 05-08-07, 04:32 AM	I have seen several triad members from different regions say that they cannot give out item access. Thats really all I know. I don't think that 'meeting a prerequisite' is enough to bypass the apparent restriction. I would just recommend checking with ones triad before relying on the option.That interpretation is cutting the letter of the rules a bit finely. Clearly the intent is that Special Missions cannot be used to gain access to especially powerful, exotic and unique items. I think a SM to meet the pre-req is well within the spirit and intent of the rule. Now if the rules lawyers want to disallow it, you just need to find an author to contrive a SM that technically meets the requirement for Battlesmith while not actually giving AR access to a Dwarven Crafted Warhammer. For example: Dwarf goes on SM, does something heroic and finds himself in possession of a DCW. Now it is not uncommon for mods to let characters use items during the course of the adventure yet not grant AR access at the end. Anyway, the Dwarf, now in possession of a DCW, goes through the ceremony or whatever and becomes a Battlesmith in the middle of the mod. Next thing you know some unfortunate event, BBEG or other Deus Ex Machina effect happens and the new Battlesmith is deprived of his DCW. Now he gets to craft a replacement and spend the rest of his career seeking the rightful return of the original. Problem solved: Battlesmith w/o AR access to DCW.
Dr.Cornelius 05-08-07, 04:40 AM	Close Quarters Fighting. Lets you take an AOO against a grappler (even one with improved grapple or improved grab) and apply the damage dealt to the grapple check if they touch you.Anybody know how Close Quarters Fighting interacts with reach? For example, grapplemonster with 10ft reach is 10ft away from Dwarf (5ft reach) and initiates a grapple. Does the Dwarf get an AOO?
Southernskies 05-08-07, 05:01 AM	Expect table variation. Using RAW, you would be unable to attack the creature with an AoO. However, there are several places in the rules where examples are given about readying attacks against creatures with reach and being able to attack the head/limb/weapon.
Suvarov454 05-08-07, 08:15 AM	I have seen several triad members from different regions say that they cannot give out item access. Thats really all I know. I don't think that 'meeting a prerequisite' is enough to bypass the apparent restriction. I would just recommend checking with ones triad before relying on the option. I'd be happier if I could get access to crafting dwarvencraft arms and armor, and then spend the TUs to craft a 600 GP item (even with a +20 bonus to crafting, that's like 7 TU for increased hardness and PrC access). It would be much more in keeping with my character. Except, of course, one can't craft mundane items in LG :rolleyes: I don't know... maybe Battlesmith is an overpowered PrC that needs careful regulation? In any event, I might gain AR access to a DCW, and render the whole discussion moot.
TWG_Prometheus 05-08-07, 10:26 AM	Have you checked the LGCS in regard to the Battlesmith class? I thought it had some specific provisions relating to the Dwarvencraft weapon. Sometimes those PrC-specific provisions wind up basically making them NONC rather than Open, but I think it was a helpful provision in the case of Battlesmith...specifically relating with how to deal with the Dwarvencraft issue. Note that I didn't pay extremely close attention to the LGCS notes, as I don't intend to make a Battlesmith, however.
jstorrie 05-08-07, 01:03 PM	You can get in either by owning a dwarvencraft item or by crafting your own magical warhammer. This build doesn't have the caster levels to do the latter.
GorTeX 05-08-07, 01:28 PM	To get into the Battlesmith carreer, the LGCS says you just need to own a Dwarven Crafted Warhammer (magical or not, doesn't matter). LGCS also states that a weapon/armor you crafted using Craft Arms & Armor counts as a Weaopn/Armor you made for the purposes of some of the PrC's abilities (wisdom bonus to damage for your WH, +1/+2 Sacred AC bonus to your armor)--but that is after you get into the class. So, the only way to be able to get into the Battlesmith PrC is to own a dwarven crafted Warhammer.
Suvarov454 05-08-07, 08:12 PM	To get into the Battlesmith carreer, the LGCS says you just need to own a Dwarven Crafted Warhammer (magical or not, doesn't matter). LGCS also states that a weapon/armor you crafted using Craft Arms & Armor counts as a Weaopn/Armor you made for the purposes of some of the PrC's abilities (wisdom bonus to damage for your WH, +1/+2 Sacred AC bonus to your armor)--but that is after you get into the class. So, the only way to be able to get into the Battlesmith PrC is to own a dwarven crafted Warhammer. Just to underline what GorTeX said, the RAW for Battlesmith says that the character has to have crafted a dwarvencraft weapon and used it in battle... and you can't craft mundane items in LG. Hence the clarification in the LGCS saying that posession of a dwarvencraft weapon is sufficient to take the class. Incidently, this effectively makes the class NONC just as TWG_Prometheus said, because one needs AR documentation to own a dwarvencraft weapon (hence the second part of this thread:)). Similarly, the class features he alluded to only apply to items that the character has crafted, and the LGCS clarifies that enhancing an item with Craft Magic Arms and Armor is sufficient to meet the requirements of these class features.
Timlagor 05-14-07, 11:44 AM	I wouldn't be surprised if the limitation on SMs is that you can't get acces Magic Items. The Combat Focus tree is way cooler than the boring old Armour Feats.
Suvarov454 05-14-07, 01:31 PM	I wouldn't be surprised if the limitation on SMs is that you can't get acces Magic Items. The Combat Focus tree is way cooler than the boring old Armour Feats. Granted. But the boring old Shield and Armour feats are more certain. I fear that I am a conservative player (or maybe, just playing a conservative character, in which case the choice is correct for his personality). Besides, this way I'm less tempted to drop the shield and swing the hammer with both hands.
Dr.Cornelius 05-14-07, 03:09 PM	Combat Focus is a trap. It looks good on paper but is much less effective in practice because CF does nothing until you hit an opponent. Even if you do not get jumped in the surprise round, I am asuming that your Battlemaster build does not have much in the way of Dex, and no Improved Initiative so the BBEG is likely to go first and negate most of the advantage of Combat Stability. The only way I see the Combat Focus feat tree being optimal is on a character with reasonable Dex, Improved Initiative and the Feign Surprise LG campaign card.
jstorrie 05-15-07, 12:18 AM	That's not actually true. All of the Combat Form feats require you to be 'in focus' to use except Combat Stability. Check your PHBII, it's the one feat that doesn't specify you must be 'in focus.' Probably because you wouldn't often be getting grappled, disarmed or tripped out of combat.
Jay_Ibero_911 05-15-07, 12:39 AM	That's not actually true. All of the Combat Form feats require you to be 'in focus' to use except Combat Stability. Check your PHBII, it's the one feat that doesn't specify you must be 'in focus.' Probably because you wouldn't often be getting grappled, disarmed or tripped out of combat. Hmm...that is handy. Combat Defense and Combat Awareness both have benefits that don't require you to be in focus too (The increased dodge bonus and the blindsight 5ft). Though I think it might be intended that you be in focus to get those benefits, they are in a separate paragraph from the "while you maintain your combat focus" clause...
jstorrie 05-15-07, 02:53 AM	I'd expect table variation about those. Combat Stability, though, is clear-cut.
Suvarov454 05-17-07, 10:08 PM	That's not actually true. All of the Combat Form feats require you to be 'in focus' to use except Combat Stability. Check your PHBII, it's the one feat that doesn't specify you must be 'in focus.' Probably because you wouldn't often be getting grappled, disarmed or tripped out of combat. :eek: Really!?! /me dashes off to review his PHBII Benefit: You gain a +4 bonus on checks or rols to resist <list omitted> made against you. If you have three or more combat form feats, the bonus granted by this feat increases to +8. Yup, that's pretty cut and dried... except for the "fluff text" that starts When you maintain your combat focus, you become difficult to dislodge. :confused: This sort of thing is what the debian-legal mailing list calls "lawyer bait"; I expect table variation and arguments over "intent" versus RAW and whether text not included in the Benefits section should be applied. I'm tired just thinking about it. :( <sigh/>I think that games publishers need to hire more computer programmers to edit their rules.
TWG_Prometheus 05-18-07, 01:53 PM	<sigh/>I think that games publishers need to hire more computer programmers to edit their rules. IF COND(CHAR_DEALT_DAMAGE) THEN(COMBAT_AWARENESS_DURATION_COUNTER = 10); Ohhhh yeah.