Silly Born of the Three Thunders bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Silly Born of the Three Thunders bard [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alpha_Nerd
02-08-07, 12:57 AM Ok, so I was trying to figure out a way to break the 5th level ability from Lyric Thaumaturge that lets you add 1d6 per spell lvl worth of sonic damage to any sonic descriptor spell. I was kinda sad figuring out I can't take energy substitution: sonic, but then I saw Born of the Three Thunders. I also noticed that BotTT gives the spell both the lightning and sonic descriptors. Yay! So, I was thinking about making a Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 4/Mindbender 1. It says in the skill description that you can use the ability every time you cast a spell, not specifically a bard spell. Here was my build so far.

Human

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16

Feats:

1 Empower Spell
1 Extra Music
3 Energy Substitution: Lightning
6 Born of the Three Thunders
9 Arcane Preparation
12 ??
15 ??

I'm picking up Arcane Prep so I can prepare my metamagicked nukes ahead of time to allow myself to use my sublime chord ability to bump the caster level. It's a pretty typical bard until 11th level, I'll probably focus more on buffing than nuking, but once I get the sublime chord spells he's gonna go bananas. So, what do you guys think?

EDIT: Also, I think I'm reading this right. BotTT just makes me dazed until the start of my next initative, I don't actually miss a round every time I use it.
jstorrie
02-08-07, 12:47 PM Does Lyric Thaumaturge also add a Reflex save to the spell? It needs to have sonic or lightning damage, and a Reflex save, to work.

You could in theory throw down Lyric Three Thunders grease or web, I think.
Alpha_Nerd
02-08-07, 01:26 PM Does Lyric Thaumaturge also add a Reflex save to the spell? It needs to have sonic or lightning damage, and a Reflex save, to work.

You could in theory throw down Lyric Three Thunders grease or web, I think.

"When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders."

Unless I'm missing something I don't see where the reflex save is coming in. It doesn't mention it in the rest of the feat benefit. It gives the spell a fort save to be stunned then a reflex save to be prone.
jstorrie
02-08-07, 01:53 PM I was thinking Explosive Spell. Whoops.

I guess, while I'm on the topic, you could do an Explosive Three Thunders Lyric Grease (but I can't see why you'd want to!)
Jay_Ibero_911
02-08-07, 01:54 PM Also Note, you don't even really NEED Sublime Chord, because Lyric THaumaturge gives you one WIZ/SORC spell of each spell level up to 6th. So learn Fireball, Electric Sub it, make it Born of Three Thunders, use Sonic Might, Boom, 5d6 Electric/8d6 Sonic, Reflex Half, Fort or Stun, followed by Reflex or Prone. Or for a 4th Level Spell, learn acid orb, sub it electricity, BoTT, Get a nice snipe spell, especially if they do get stunned. The you being dazed after casting is a sad drawback though. Works best with multi-use spells like Call Lightning. Works with shout too, without the energy sub. Shout is 4th level bard spell, though crappy damage. Or Learn Blast of Flame, 4th level wiz/Sorc spell, 40ft cone, no SR, Energy Sub, BoTT, Sonic Might, Song of Arcane Might. Ouch.

EDIT: Also, Lyric Thaumaturge requires 9 ranks perform, so your first level would have to be level 7. Bard 6/LT5/Sublime Chord2/LT2 would work much more nicely.
Alpha_Nerd
02-08-07, 02:03 PM You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny?
Jay_Ibero_911
02-08-07, 02:47 PM You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny?

yeah, it's funny. Here's the most tricked out BoTT build I could come up with:

Race:Human
Alignment: Chaotic Good

STR-10 (2)
DEX-14 (6)
CON-14 (6)
INT-14 (6)
WIS-8 (0)
CHA-15 (8)

Lv1(Bard)Melodic Casting, Explosive Spell
Lv2(Bard)
Lv3(Bard)Energy Substitution(Electricity)
Lv4(Bard)+1 CHA
Lv5(Bard)
Lv6(Bard)Born of the Three Thunders
Lv7(Lyric Thaumaturge)
Lv8(Lyric Thaumaturge)Captivating Melody, +1 CHA
Lv9(Lyric Thaumaturge)Metamagic Song
Lv10(Lyric Thaumaturge)
Lv11(Lyric Thaumaturge)
Lv12(Lyric Thaumaturge)Extra Music, +1 CHA
Lv13(Lyric Thaumaturge)
Lv14(Lyric Thaumaturge)
Lv15(Lyric Thaumaturge)Lyric Spell

Take Fireball as your 3rd level sorc spell, and at 13th level you can do an Explosive Energy Substituted Born of the Three Thunders Fireball with Sonic Might. 5d6 Electricity, 8d6 Sonic, Reflex Half or be blown out and prone for extra damage, Fort of be Stunned and need Reflex or Prone. Quite a twist on good old fireball. 4th level learn blast of flame, and do the same without the explosive spell part. 5th level, greater fireburst, and at 15th level, 15d10 Electric+Sonic, +5d6 Sonic, and the usual other effects. Lyric Spell and Metamagic Song let you get extra spells and free metamagic by spending bardic music, which you have 19/day. Metamagic Song lets you mimic Divine Metamagic, except you can't make spells higher level than you can actually cast...
dkay807
02-08-07, 04:45 PM You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny?

Also remember that your Sublime Chord caster level would only be equal to either your Bard CHARACTER LEVEL or your Lyric THaumaturge CHARACTER LEVEL. So if you did something like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2 then went back to Lyric Thaumaturge, you'd need to take Practiced Spellcaster or suffer from a low caster level.
Japangirl
02-08-07, 05:04 PM Lyric Thaumaturge adds to your bard caster level, it is not a separate spellcasting class on its own. Thus, Sublime Chord adds to Lyric Thaumaturge adds to base "bard" spellcasting class, and he has a full caster level progression bard.
dkay807
02-08-07, 05:19 PM Unfortunately, you're wrong.

I confirmed this with WotC customer support.

CA Pg. 61: "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class"

This explictly states level not caster level

Kinda stinks :(
Japangirl
02-08-07, 08:49 PM Did you specifically ask level vs. caster level? That still seems rather ambiguous to me.
dkay807
02-08-07, 09:30 PM Afraid so :(

Here's the email response I received:

These questions are more specific.... I can assist you further with these.
Actually, first off, you must add your sublime chord to either your lyric thaumaturge or bard... not both (i.e. you cannot split them up). The sublime chord caster level is determined by the sublime chord class level to the class level of the other class chosen (not caster level).

Good Gaming!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Chris.
Customer Service Supervisor
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
Japangirl
02-08-07, 09:40 PM Afraid so :(

Here's the email response I received:

These questions are more specific.... I can assist you further with these.
Actually, first off, you must add your sublime chord to either your lyric thaumaturge or bard... not both (i.e. you cannot split them up). The sublime chord caster level is determined by the sublime chord class level to the class level of the other class chosen (not caster level).

Good Gaming!
We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire.

To login to your account, or update your question please click here.

Chris.
Customer Service Supervisor
Wizards of the Coast
1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada)
425-204-8069 (From all other countries)
Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST

I see. That makes no sense to me, as PrC caster levels always just stack on base classes. Thank goodness CustServ isn't an official rules source.
dkay807
02-08-07, 10:21 PM While it may not be, the wording is clear in this case. It states "level" and not "caster level."

While this may be a case of ETV, anyone intepreting it this way is only fooling himself/herself.
jstorrie
02-08-07, 11:18 PM The CustServe response is actually wrong, since you can't add Sublime Chord to Lyric Thaumaturge (it's not an 'arcane spellcasting class' because it doesn't grant spellcasting - it only progresses existent spellcasting) so you would have to add SC to Bard. You would take a caster level hit unless you took Practiced Spellcaster.
boolean
02-11-07, 07:28 AM I see. That makes no sense to me, as PrC caster levels always just stack on base classes. Thank goodness CustServ isn't an official rules source.

Sublime Chord already stacks in an odd fashion when determining spells per day. Stacking oddly when determining caster level doesn't surprise me.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 02-08-07, 12:57 AM	Ok, so I was trying to figure out a way to break the 5th level ability from Lyric Thaumaturge that lets you add 1d6 per spell lvl worth of sonic damage to any sonic descriptor spell. I was kinda sad figuring out I can't take energy substitution: sonic, but then I saw Born of the Three Thunders. I also noticed that BotTT gives the spell both the lightning and sonic descriptors. Yay! So, I was thinking about making a Bard 5/Lyric Thaumaturge 5/Sublime Chord 4/Mindbender 1. It says in the skill description that you can use the ability every time you cast a spell, not specifically a bard spell. Here was my build so far. Human STR 10 DEX 14 CON 14 INT 10 WIS 10 CHA 16 Feats: 1 Empower Spell 1 Extra Music 3 Energy Substitution: Lightning 6 Born of the Three Thunders 9 Arcane Preparation 12 ?? 15 ?? I'm picking up Arcane Prep so I can prepare my metamagicked nukes ahead of time to allow myself to use my sublime chord ability to bump the caster level. It's a pretty typical bard until 11th level, I'll probably focus more on buffing than nuking, but once I get the sublime chord spells he's gonna go bananas. So, what do you guys think? EDIT: Also, I think I'm reading this right. BotTT just makes me dazed until the start of my next initative, I don't actually miss a round every time I use it.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 12:47 PM	Does Lyric Thaumaturge also add a Reflex save to the spell? It needs to have sonic or lightning damage, and a Reflex save, to work. You could in theory throw down Lyric Three Thunders grease or web, I think.
Alpha_Nerd 02-08-07, 01:26 PM	Does Lyric Thaumaturge also add a Reflex save to the spell? It needs to have sonic or lightning damage, and a Reflex save, to work. You could in theory throw down Lyric Three Thunders grease or web, I think. "When you cast a spell with either the electricity descriptor or the sonic descriptor that deals hit point damage, you can declare that spell to be a spell of the three thunders." Unless I'm missing something I don't see where the reflex save is coming in. It doesn't mention it in the rest of the feat benefit. It gives the spell a fort save to be stunned then a reflex save to be prone.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 01:53 PM	I was thinking Explosive Spell. Whoops. I guess, while I'm on the topic, you could do an Explosive Three Thunders Lyric Grease (but I can't see why you'd want to!)
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 01:54 PM	Also Note, you don't even really NEED Sublime Chord, because Lyric THaumaturge gives you one WIZ/SORC spell of each spell level up to 6th. So learn Fireball, Electric Sub it, make it Born of Three Thunders, use Sonic Might, Boom, 5d6 Electric/8d6 Sonic, Reflex Half, Fort or Stun, followed by Reflex or Prone. Or for a 4th Level Spell, learn acid orb, sub it electricity, BoTT, Get a nice snipe spell, especially if they do get stunned. The you being dazed after casting is a sad drawback though. Works best with multi-use spells like Call Lightning. Works with shout too, without the energy sub. Shout is 4th level bard spell, though crappy damage. Or Learn Blast of Flame, 4th level wiz/Sorc spell, 40ft cone, no SR, Energy Sub, BoTT, Sonic Might, Song of Arcane Might. Ouch. EDIT: Also, Lyric Thaumaturge requires 9 ranks perform, so your first level would have to be level 7. Bard 6/LT5/Sublime Chord2/LT2 would work much more nicely.
Alpha_Nerd 02-08-07, 02:03 PM	You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny?
Jay_Ibero_911 02-08-07, 02:47 PM	You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny? yeah, it's funny. Here's the most tricked out BoTT build I could come up with: Race:Human Alignment: Chaotic Good STR-10 (2) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-14 (6) WIS-8 (0) CHA-15 (8) Lv1(Bard)Melodic Casting, Explosive Spell Lv2(Bard) Lv3(Bard)Energy Substitution(Electricity) Lv4(Bard)+1 CHA Lv5(Bard) Lv6(Bard)Born of the Three Thunders Lv7(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv8(Lyric Thaumaturge)Captivating Melody, +1 CHA Lv9(Lyric Thaumaturge)Metamagic Song Lv10(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv11(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv12(Lyric Thaumaturge)Extra Music, +1 CHA Lv13(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv14(Lyric Thaumaturge) Lv15(Lyric Thaumaturge)Lyric Spell Take Fireball as your 3rd level sorc spell, and at 13th level you can do an Explosive Energy Substituted Born of the Three Thunders Fireball with Sonic Might. 5d6 Electricity, 8d6 Sonic, Reflex Half or be blown out and prone for extra damage, Fort of be Stunned and need Reflex or Prone. Quite a twist on good old fireball. 4th level learn blast of flame, and do the same without the explosive spell part. 5th level, greater fireburst, and at 15th level, 15d10 Electric+Sonic, +5d6 Sonic, and the usual other effects. Lyric Spell and Metamagic Song let you get extra spells and free metamagic by spending bardic music, which you have 19/day. Metamagic Song lets you mimic Divine Metamagic, except you can't make spells higher level than you can actually cast...
dkay807 02-08-07, 04:45 PM	You don't NEED Sublime Chord, but it's really good. Also, am I the only one that thinks making a BotTT Sound Burst that does 1d8 +2d6 damage with 2 fort saves to be stunned is kinda funny? Also remember that your Sublime Chord caster level would only be equal to either your Bard CHARACTER LEVEL or your Lyric THaumaturge CHARACTER LEVEL. So if you did something like Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 2 then went back to Lyric Thaumaturge, you'd need to take Practiced Spellcaster or suffer from a low caster level.
Japangirl 02-08-07, 05:04 PM	Lyric Thaumaturge adds to your bard caster level, it is not a separate spellcasting class on its own. Thus, Sublime Chord adds to Lyric Thaumaturge adds to base "bard" spellcasting class, and he has a full caster level progression bard.
dkay807 02-08-07, 05:19 PM	Unfortunately, you're wrong. I confirmed this with WotC customer support. CA Pg. 61: "A sublime chord's caster level for both her sublime chord spells and the spells she gains from other arcane spellcasting classes is determined by adding her sublime chord level to her level in another arcane spellcasting class" This explictly states level not caster level Kinda stinks :(
Japangirl 02-08-07, 08:49 PM	Did you specifically ask level vs. caster level? That still seems rather ambiguous to me.
dkay807 02-08-07, 09:30 PM	Afraid so :( Here's the email response I received: These questions are more specific.... I can assist you further with these. Actually, first off, you must add your sublime chord to either your lyric thaumaturge or bard... not both (i.e. you cannot split them up). The sublime chord caster level is determined by the sublime chord class level to the class level of the other class chosen (not caster level). Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Chris. Customer Service Supervisor Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST
Japangirl 02-08-07, 09:40 PM	Afraid so :( Here's the email response I received: These questions are more specific.... I can assist you further with these. Actually, first off, you must add your sublime chord to either your lyric thaumaturge or bard... not both (i.e. you cannot split them up). The sublime chord caster level is determined by the sublime chord class level to the class level of the other class chosen (not caster level). Good Gaming! We would appreciate your feedback on the service we are providing you. Please click here to fill out a short questionnaire. To login to your account, or update your question please click here. Chris. Customer Service Supervisor Wizards of the Coast 1-800-324-6496 (US and Canada) 425-204-8069 (From all other countries) Monday-Friday 7am-6pm PST / 10am-9pm EST I see. That makes no sense to me, as PrC caster levels always just stack on base classes. Thank goodness CustServ isn't an official rules source.
dkay807 02-08-07, 10:21 PM	While it may not be, the wording is clear in this case. It states "level" and not "caster level." While this may be a case of ETV, anyone intepreting it this way is only fooling himself/herself.
jstorrie 02-08-07, 11:18 PM	The CustServe response is actually wrong, since you can't add Sublime Chord to Lyric Thaumaturge (it's not an 'arcane spellcasting class' because it doesn't grant spellcasting - it only progresses existent spellcasting) so you would have to add SC to Bard. You would take a caster level hit unless you took Practiced Spellcaster.
boolean 02-11-07, 07:28 AM	I see. That makes no sense to me, as PrC caster levels always just stack on base classes. Thank goodness CustServ isn't an official rules source. Sublime Chord already stacks in an odd fashion when determining spells per day. Stacking oddly when determining caster level doesn't surprise me.