Silly LITTLE gnome! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Silly LITTLE gnome! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
MeinVT
12-19-06, 11:21 PM So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main.

He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me.

A couple questions:
DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain?

My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal.

Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference.

Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.)

Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream.
Arvagor
12-19-06, 11:43 PM A couple questions:
DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain?While you can attempt to withdraw, you'd gain no benefit from doing so. The rules state, "The square you start out in is not considered threatened" -- if you start out sharing space with a larger creature, only that shared square is not threatened. So you move out of a shared space into an adjacent one, but because the adjacent squares are not the squares you started out in, those squares remain threatened by the creature, which is why attempting to withdraw further has no benefit in that situation (which is also why attempting to withdraw when adjacent to a creature with reach doesn't really work either).

Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.)According to the FAQ, page 18: "Tiny and smaller creatures can enter or share the space occupied by a Small or larger creature (they must do so to attack, after all). This is a specific exception to the normal restriction against two creatures sharing the same space."
ShinAkuma2
12-19-06, 11:57 PM A couple questions:
DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain?

Answered already...You will still provoke, so you end up with nothing more than a normal double move.

My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal.

No, you don't. Flanking is not always reciprocal...For instance, if two allies surround an enemy, and one attacks unarmed while the other attacks with a weapon, the unarmed attacker gets flanking, while the armed guy doesn't.

Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference.

Yes, this will work. The FAQ also supports granting 5ft reach.

Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.)

Anything Tiny or smaller can always enter an opponent's space. It's only if you're Small or larger that you are limited to an opponent three sizes larger than you.
MeinVT
12-19-06, 11:59 PM Arvagor, thanks for the answers. Your explanation on withdrawal does make sense, although isn't exactly what the DMG says. You are saying, you can withdraw, but it doesn't eliminate the creature you are standing on getting an AoO as you move away. It could impact other creatures threatening your space.

I guess I didn't check the FAQ closely enough, that ruling makes sense.

One more question. I assume that when you are in the same space as a Medium creature you don't get cover from that creature from any direction?
Arvagor
12-20-06, 12:07 AM Arvagor, thanks for the answers. Your explanation on withdrawal does make sense, although isn't exactly what the DMG says.That's correct, but the DMG is not the authoritative rule -- PHB, page 143, defines the rule(s) for the Withdrawal action, and that is what I quoted. :)
DuctShuiTengu
12-20-06, 12:00 PM So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main.

He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me.

[...]

Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream.

You realize that you're required to name this char after one of the Nac Mac Feegle (see Terry Pratchett's The Wee Free Men) - Not-as-big-as-Medium-Sized-Jock-but-bigger-than-Wee-Jock-Jock would be a favorite. Or just name the character Nac Mac Feegle. That would probably be acceptable as well.
RedKnightofKet
12-20-06, 07:09 PM So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main.

He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me.

A couple questions:
DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain?

My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal.

Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference.

Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.)

Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream.

Cool idea. Keep in mind, though, that you lose the benefits of Power Attack if your STR drops below 13. That means, barring items, you would have needed to put 13 points into your strength at character creation. Still, sounds like fun though. And I agree on the Nac Mac Feegle thing... I've been trying to figure out how to make them a playable DnD race, but they're just too powerful.
clannagh
12-20-06, 07:17 PM reach weapons do not have "reach" as such by themselves a reach weapon, sized appropriately, doubles the reach of the creature weilding it

if you use reduce person the reach weapon will reduce with you so the "sized appropriately" is not an issue

the special exception for tiny creatures should work for you

also note that as a tiny creature you get AoO if they leave your square

you should consider carrying a small snake in your pocket :)
copper_wyrmling
12-20-06, 07:25 PM Cool idea. Keep in mind, though, that you lose the benefits of Power Attack if your STR drops below 13. That means, barring items, you would have needed to put 13 points into your strength at character creation.

Nah, it would just mean he needs to rage before he can use power attack - it sounds like he spends most of his time in combat raging anyway ;)
MeinVT
12-23-06, 06:10 PM I did get my STR to 14 at the startand this tactic won't really come into full until I'm 4th level and also get the Spring Attack feat. At that point I'll need to have come up with the cash for an item, only use it while raging, or put the point in strength.

My hope is that with tiny size, dodge-mobility-spring attack and perhaps a bit of tumbling (which I've been taking cross class) I'll be effective at getting through front lines of opponents and disrupting spell casters and other soft targets like that.

Thanks for all the help with the answers.
Morgen
12-24-06, 02:43 AM They've got some pretty stiff requirements to get, but Underfoot Combat and Confound the Bigfolk from Races of the Wild might be two feats you'll want to look at. You need 10 ranks of Tumble to get them, but they would fit your character's method of combat very well, especially if you were tiny. ;)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MeinVT 12-19-06, 11:21 PM	So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main. He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me. A couple questions: DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain? My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal. Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference. Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.) Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream.
Arvagor 12-19-06, 11:43 PM	A couple questions: DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain?While you can attempt to withdraw, you'd gain no benefit from doing so. The rules state, "The square you start out in is not considered threatened" -- if you start out sharing space with a larger creature, only that shared square is not threatened. So you move out of a shared space into an adjacent one, but because the adjacent squares are not the squares you started out in, those squares remain threatened by the creature, which is why attempting to withdraw further has no benefit in that situation (which is also why attempting to withdraw when adjacent to a creature with reach doesn't really work either). Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.)According to the FAQ, page 18: "Tiny and smaller creatures can enter or share the space occupied by a Small or larger creature (they must do so to attack, after all). This is a specific exception to the normal restriction against two creatures sharing the same space."
ShinAkuma2 12-19-06, 11:57 PM	A couple questions: DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain? Answered already...You will still provoke, so you end up with nothing more than a normal double move. My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal. No, you don't. Flanking is not always reciprocal...For instance, if two allies surround an enemy, and one attacks unarmed while the other attacks with a weapon, the unarmed attacker gets flanking, while the armed guy doesn't. Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference. Yes, this will work. The FAQ also supports granting 5ft reach. Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.) Anything Tiny or smaller can always enter an opponent's space. It's only if you're Small or larger that you are limited to an opponent three sizes larger than you.
MeinVT 12-19-06, 11:59 PM	Arvagor, thanks for the answers. Your explanation on withdrawal does make sense, although isn't exactly what the DMG says. You are saying, you can withdraw, but it doesn't eliminate the creature you are standing on getting an AoO as you move away. It could impact other creatures threatening your space. I guess I didn't check the FAQ closely enough, that ruling makes sense. One more question. I assume that when you are in the same space as a Medium creature you don't get cover from that creature from any direction?
Arvagor 12-20-06, 12:07 AM	Arvagor, thanks for the answers. Your explanation on withdrawal does make sense, although isn't exactly what the DMG says.That's correct, but the DMG is not the authoritative rule -- PHB, page 143, defines the rule(s) for the Withdrawal action, and that is what I quoted. :)
DuctShuiTengu 12-20-06, 12:00 PM	So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main. He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me. [...] Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream. You realize that you're required to name this char after one of the Nac Mac Feegle (see Terry Pratchett's The Wee Free Men) - Not-as-big-as-Medium-Sized-Jock-but-bigger-than-Wee-Jock-Jock would be a favorite. Or just name the character Nac Mac Feegle. That would probably be acceptable as well.
RedKnightofKet 12-20-06, 07:09 PM	So, I'm not so much into the min-maxing approach to characters, but I'm having fun and beginning to make a (I think) somewhat unique main. He is a Bright Sands area gnome barbarian (now barb2/fght1) who's main deal is the power attack. What I'd like to do is specialize on using reduce person potions and charging in to occupy enemy spaces where I can power attack their kneecaps. There is something about a 5 pound miniature gnome doing d6+11 damage per attack (and rising) that appeals to me. A couple questions: DMG (p 29) says a smaller creature can't take withdrawal out of the space it shares with a large creature, although the reason why isn't clear as withdrawal is specifically about leaving threatened locations. Can anyone explain? My understanding is that while in a Medium or larger creature's space I'd provide flanking to all allies. Does that mean I get the flanking benefit too? The way I understand flanking it is always reciprocal. Tiny creatures have 0' reach and don't normally get AoO (on adjacent squares). The dmg (p 29) says that some carry reach weapons that do threaten adjacent squares. Would I be able to use Player's Handbook reach weapon for this? I assume their reach would diminish from 10' to 5' going from small to tiny but can't find the reference. Can a tiny creature enter a space with a small creature? As written the rules don't seem to allow it. Does this make gnomes and halflings immune to tiny creatures without reach? (Joking, but the rules are written that way to my reading.) Thanks for indulging my whim of a 19" tall 5 lb gnome charging across the room with a blood curdling scream. Cool idea. Keep in mind, though, that you lose the benefits of Power Attack if your STR drops below 13. That means, barring items, you would have needed to put 13 points into your strength at character creation. Still, sounds like fun though. And I agree on the Nac Mac Feegle thing... I've been trying to figure out how to make them a playable DnD race, but they're just too powerful.
clannagh 12-20-06, 07:17 PM	reach weapons do not have "reach" as such by themselves a reach weapon, sized appropriately, doubles the reach of the creature weilding it if you use reduce person the reach weapon will reduce with you so the "sized appropriately" is not an issue the special exception for tiny creatures should work for you also note that as a tiny creature you get AoO if they leave your square you should consider carrying a small snake in your pocket :)
copper_wyrmling 12-20-06, 07:25 PM	Cool idea. Keep in mind, though, that you lose the benefits of Power Attack if your STR drops below 13. That means, barring items, you would have needed to put 13 points into your strength at character creation. Nah, it would just mean he needs to rage before he can use power attack - it sounds like he spends most of his time in combat raging anyway ;)
MeinVT 12-23-06, 06:10 PM	I did get my STR to 14 at the startand this tactic won't really come into full until I'm 4th level and also get the Spring Attack feat. At that point I'll need to have come up with the cash for an item, only use it while raging, or put the point in strength. My hope is that with tiny size, dodge-mobility-spring attack and perhaps a bit of tumbling (which I've been taking cross class) I'll be effective at getting through front lines of opponents and disrupting spell casters and other soft targets like that. Thanks for all the help with the answers.
Morgen 12-24-06, 02:43 AM	They've got some pretty stiff requirements to get, but Underfoot Combat and Confound the Bigfolk from Races of the Wild might be two feats you'll want to look at. You need 10 ranks of Tumble to get them, but they would fit your character's method of combat very well, especially if you were tiny. ;)