Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fghj171983 02-24-07, 08:38 PM	A friend of mine asked me to come up with an optimized sneak attacking trapfinder for him. Thinking about the popular combo Rog/Swash with Daring Outlaw adding wiz1 and Unseen Seer 2 for gravestrike/golem strike. You also gain the ability to use CWI to make your own stat items. Human Str 12 Dex 16 Con 15 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1 Rog - TWF, your choice 2 Swa - Wep Finesse 3 Swa - your choice 4 Wiz - diviner, prohibited enchantment, pump dex 5 Rog - evasion 6 U.S - Daring Outlaw 7 U.S. - pick up grave strike 8 Swa - pump dex 9 Ftr - CWI, Imp TWF 10 Swa 11 Swa 12 Swa - Staggering strike, pump con 13 Swa 14 Swa 15 Swa - your choice The trickest thing seemed to be working around the exp penalty. I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions you all may have.
Alpha_Nerd 02-24-07, 08:50 PM	what exp penalty? rogue 2/wiz 1/ftr 1/swash 9 favored class swashbuckler
fghj171983 02-24-07, 09:08 PM	what exp penalty? rogue 2/wiz 1/ftr 1/swash 9 favored class swashbuckler Well originally there was an exp penalty when I was rog 3 or rog 4 but staying with just rog 2 fixed that. As I said I worked around it.
MatteBlack 02-24-07, 09:55 PM	Perhaps I am being naive here but, how would a similarly levelled straight rogue compare? Sneak attack and trapfinding are sort of their deal. Would the upper level rogue abilities be worth it? I would also imagine that all those possible ranks of magic item use could circumvent the need of a wizard level.
fghj171983 02-24-07, 11:12 PM	Perhaps I am being naive here but, how would a similarly levelled straight rogue compare? Sneak attack and trapfinding are sort of their deal. Would the upper level rogue abilities be worth it? I would also imagine that all those possible ranks of magic item use could circumvent the need of a wizard level. This straight rog can work especially with UMD but I dont like the idea of sneak attacking without gravestrike and golem strike. UMD just doesnt do enough against undead and constructs imo. This build has a slighty higher BAB and higher all around saves at the cost of a lower reflex save. CWI can really help a character get ahead of the gold curve and thus be more effiecent and productive. The other arcane spells can add a nice amount of utility too. This build can still max search, disable and have a few other skills. Though a straight rog would obviously have more skills. This build also does it with d10 hitdice for most of its lvls.
Japangirl 02-24-07, 11:52 PM	High level rogue abilities are really nice, especially with the feat Savvy Rogue being allowed now. I'd look at Rog 12/Wiz 1/US 2 as a possible build, or if 12 rogue levels doesn't cut it, Rog 10/Wiz 1/US 2/Ftr 2 or Swa 2. No XP penalty for any of those builds, and you get a rogue ability. I'd go with Crippling Strike, 2 Str damage every time you hit something is pretty brutal. With Savvy Rogue, it even affects un-sneakable things. d6 HD for most of the levels does hurt, but Amulets of Con and some cautious playing can get around that. A TWF rogue can do 10-12 Str damage a round with this build against everything, even oozes, constructs, undead, and plants (assuming no immunity to ability damage). That's nothing to sneer at, since you are removing their ability to hit and do damage with each hit you make. Another option is a Cha based rogue with a Sorc level. That way, you don't have to choose whether to memorize Golem Strike or Grave Strike, you can just have whichever one is necessary available. At that point, however, you may have too many stats to worry about, but it's a possibility.
bitznarf 02-24-07, 11:52 PM	Might want to try something similar with a halfling (tallfellow perhaps) using Underfoot Combat and Confound the Big Folk (out of RW). It would mean dropping CWI and moving either I-TWF and/or staggering strike back. Doing this would also give you more build points to play with as your dex comes 2 points cheaper over all.
jstorrie 02-25-07, 01:05 AM	UMD kills undead and constructs, far more than Grave/Golemstrike do. It just comes down to having the right spells to cast...
Britt 02-25-07, 01:10 AM	UMD kills undead and constructs, far more than Grave/Golemstrike do. It just comes down to having the right spells to cast... Glitterdust and Command Undead?
fghj171983 02-25-07, 02:53 AM	Glitterdust and Command Undead? Both spells this build can cast. :D Wizards do have scribe scrolls after all.
copper_wyrmling 02-25-07, 01:27 PM	UMD kills undead and constructs, far more than Grave/Golemstrike do. It just comes down to having the right spells to cast... Which spells are you thinking of? My sorcerer hates fighting dread wraiths :(
Evanta 02-26-07, 06:58 AM	This straight rog can work especially with UMD but I dont like the idea of sneak attacking without gravestrike and golem strike. UMD just doesnt do enough against undead and constructs imo. This build has a slighty higher BAB and higher all around saves at the cost of a lower reflex save. CWI can really help a character get ahead of the gold curve and thus be more effiecent and productive. The other arcane spells can add a nice amount of utility too. This build can still max search, disable and have a few other skills. Though a straight rog would obviously have more skills. This build also does it with d10 hitdice for most of its lvls. wait, how do u craft wondrous items with this build? :confused: is there anything that can be crafted with CL 3?
magebeast 02-26-07, 11:10 AM	wait, how do u craft wondrous items with this build? :confused: is there anything that can be crafted with CL 3? Caster Level is not a pre-req for crafting. It was only a pre-req in LG because of the way the MIC section of the LGCS was written - the DMG has no such requirement.
Alpha_Nerd 02-27-07, 11:11 AM	Also, to the OP, I'd recommend switching the CON bump to 4th level. With the three d4 HD levels it would be nice to have those 4-6 extra hit points at those levels.
fghj171983 02-27-07, 01:00 PM	Also, to the OP, I'd recommend switching the CON bump to 4th level. With the three d4 HD levels it would be nice to have those 4-6 extra hit points at those levels. It really depends on personal preferance. Your hp will be sufficent either way imo but if you feel you need more earlier go for it. I, on the other hand, would prefer the dex pump for the late mid lvls and the 12 hp at lvl 12.
qstor 03-03-07, 08:32 AM	This straight rog can work especially with UMD but I dont like the idea of sneak attacking without gravestrike and golem strike. UMD just doesnt do enough against undead and constructs imo. T Yeah but then you'll have to take a cleric AND a Wizard and then Rogue levels. And your BAB would be way down at higher levels if you're going for a 'combat' type rogue. I'd stick with Rogue or Scout since Scout gets D. Device as a class skill. and take Skill Focus DD as one of your feats. Or if your going for a 'combat' style rogue take one level of fighter. Mike
Alpha_Nerd 03-03-07, 11:44 AM	With Unseen Seer you can choose Grave Strike as your advanced learning spell at second level, and just put golem strike in your build as a wizard. You'll need a couple Pearls of Power to replenish after every combat, but that's not a big problem.
Hariman 03-04-07, 03:18 AM	A single level of Cleric nets you golem/gravestrike. Heavy Armor Proficiency. You can take the Magic domain for first level spells. And if you go Dwarf, you get a CON boost, so you can either level in rogue or rogue/swashbuckler and get those spells with less of an investment outside of Rogue/Swash. BUT: Hunter's Eye is a much better spell than golem or gravestrike. It gives you extra SA damage. My rogue/wizard/spellwarp sniper will get 2 levels of Unseen Seer ASAP JUST FOR THIS SPELL.
Southernskies 03-04-07, 07:33 AM	Caster Level is not a pre-req for crafting. It was only a pre-req in LG because of the way the MIC section of the LGCS was written - the DMG has no such requirement. Depends on which items you want to craft. Amulet of Mighty Fists, Bracers of Armor, Cloak of Resistance and a few other items do specifically have a caster level requirement in the DMG.
bhale187 03-04-07, 09:26 AM	Caster Level is not a pre-req for crafting. It was only a pre-req in LG because of the way the MIC section of the LGCS was written - the DMG has no such requirement. The DMG only states you need the corresponding feat. However...... The Craft Wonderous Item feat has a pre-req of CL 3, in fact every crafting feat has a CL pre-req.
bhale187 03-04-07, 09:28 AM	A single level of Cleric nets you golem/gravestrike. Golem Strike is an arcane spell.
Bold 03-04-07, 10:06 AM	Golem Strike is an arcane spell. He specified the Magic Domain, so I believe he's assuming the character would somehow have access to arcane scrolls/wands of Golem Strike which he could then cast: MAGIC DOMAIN Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack.
bhale187 03-04-07, 10:10 AM	He specified the Magic Domain, so I believe he's assuming the character would somehow have access to arcane scrolls/wands of Golem Strike which he could then cast: MAGIC DOMAIN Granted Power: Use scrolls, wands, and other devices with spell completion or spell trigger activation as a wizard of one-half your cleric level (at least 1st level). For the purpose of using a scroll or other magic device, if you are also a wizard, actual wizard levels and these effective wizard levels stack. Oops, disregard that. Somehow I skipped the Magic Domain selection
Timlagor 03-04-07, 10:13 AM	Just don't forget that you lose the Swiftness when getting the spell from an item and that makes a world of difference.
Fleetfang 03-04-07, 10:26 AM	What book is Hunter's Eye from? Is it Open? NONC?
jimmy_dowdall 03-04-07, 03:57 PM	it's in spell compendeum but it's a ranger spell i think