Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lomiat 05-31-07, 12:36 AM	I think I have my build for my next PC as it gives me an archer, a Greyhawk Ruins character, and a Snow Elf all in one. I'm looking to see if I've missed any obvious options and to get people's opinions on the attribute buy as well as a couple other bothersome options. Snow Elf STR 16 DEX 17 CON 14 INT 12 WIS 8 CHA 6 Rog 1 - Point-Blank Shot, +1d6 sneak Ftr 2 - Precise Shot Rog 3 - Rapid Shot, evasion Ftr 4 - Weapon Focus (longbow) Ftr 5 - Will save all the way up to +0! Ftr 6 - Weapon Specialization (longbow), Improved Initiative Rog 7 - +2d6 sneak Nightsong Enforcer 8 - Teamwork, +3d6 sneak Occult Slayer 9 - Weapon Mastery, +1d6 vs. spell-like/spells Nig 10 - armor check penalty reduced by 2 Nig 11 - skill teamwork +2 Nig 12 - Improved Precise, +5d6 sneak Rog 13 - uncanny dodge Rog 14 - +6d6 sneak ? 15 - Too far into the future... I can gain access to Nightsong Enforcer through a metaorg, and I like the class for its full BAB progression and some sneak dice. I am not 100% sold on it, though, as it loses some sneak progression. It is nice, however, to gain Improved Precise as early as is possible without the fighter bonus feat. 6th level is a bit of a bummer, hitting an XP and GP penalty, but I can't figure how to get around it. I need to save the 3rd level of Rogue until 7th to max out the Hide and Move Silently I'll need for Nightsong Enforcer. I know, too, that I could do more damage if I made this a Wood Elf and further increased his strength, but this is my chance to make a Snow Elf, so Wood Elf is out of the question. As for the stat buy, I'm uncertain whether I should go for a 14 INT and 16 DEX or the 12 INT and 17 DEX. Starting with both as even attributes affords me 18 more skill points over 15 levels, but leaves me with an odd attribute later. Starting with the 17 DEX allows me to bump it up to 20 by 12th level, and the 12 INT still affords me enough to max out Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Search and Spot. There are a couple other ideas I liked that I had to give up -- though I'd reconsider them if it looked like I could fit them back into a build designed to be an archer "rogue." 1) I'd like a way to fire the bow in melee without threatening. To this end I'd considered Ranger 4 or Exotic Weapon Master (in the elven greatbow), but Ranger 4 looked like it would cost me the Fighter levels while EWM requires a feat I'm loathe to give up. The current build depends upon Tumble to escape melee danger -- certainly not the optimal situation. 2) Occult Slayer is cheezy, but oh so good. I think the roleplaying hook might be that this character tends to target spellcasters to disrupt their spellcasting. Unfortunately, he's got nothing to make that single shot better than a full-attack action. 3) Finally, he's got no way -- other than catching opponents flat-footed in a surprise and/or first round -- to give himself his sneak dice and is, therefore, dependent upon casters. I tried to build an archer that could go Shadowdancer and Dread Commando, too, but I couldn't figure it out.
clannagh 05-31-07, 02:41 AM	order of the bow will give you threaten in melee without AoO by 2nd level i am not sure how the stats work out but with good dex bumping your initiative already ... telling blow may end up giving you more extra sneak dice than improved initiative
_metz_ 05-31-07, 02:45 AM	I foresee some issues: 1. Snow Elves are restricted to crystalmists region. Therefore whilst it can be your character for the arc, it CANNOT have greyhawk as the home region. 2. I can gain access to Nightsong Enforcer through a metaorg: It better be a Crystalmists metaorg otherwise you won't be able to join. 3. Rogue Archers Suck. Not good enough at being an archer, and chances of something being denied dex AND within 30ft CONSISTENTLY and throughout the combat is pretty ludicrous. Flanking is the way to go for sneak damage, with TWF being optimal. 4. You are MUCH better taking scout levels and the mobile archer feats and going for skirmish. At least you will get your d6s on your damage constantly. (You don't have rapid shot or manyshot so firing lots isn't going to matter) I don't see this build being good at archery, I'm sorry. And sneak attack SUCKS at range.
copper_wyrmling 05-31-07, 07:51 AM	3. Rogue Archers Suck. Not good enough at being an archer, and chances of something being denied dex AND within 30ft CONSISTENTLY and throughout the combat is pretty ludicrous. Flanking is the way to go for sneak damage, with TWF being optimal. 4. You are MUCH better taking scout levels and the mobile archer feats and going for skirmish. At least you will get your d6s on your damage constantly. (You don't have rapid shot or manyshot so firing lots isn't going to matter) I don't see this build being good at archery, I'm sorry. And sneak attack SUCKS at range. Hehehe... I disagree completely. Admittedly, for the first one it's much easier if you can cast grease / blink / greater invis yourself (and if you can do that you can usually also cast sniper's shot, which helps with the range issue), but arcanes aren't usually that rare, and casting grease under an opponent is a decent action anyway at low levels (chance to make them prone, but it also makes them auto-flatfooted if they pass their Ref save and don't have 5 ranks in Balance). Note that this guy is an archer with one less than full BAB up to L13, starting Str 16, rapid shot early, and weapon spec + ranged weapon mastery by L9: he's far more dangerous when he can sneak attack, but hardly ineffective without it. If he takes scout levels, then sure, he'll get d6s consistently, but losing the full attack to add skirmish damage is almost invariably not worthwhile - sneak attack doesn't require you to make that choice.
Lomiat 05-31-07, 08:13 AM	I foresee some issues: 1. Snow Elves are restricted to crystalmists region. Therefore whilst it can be your character for the arc, it CANNOT have greyhawk as the home region. 2. I can gain access to Nightsong Enforcer through a metaorg: It better be a Crystalmists metaorg otherwise you won't be able to join. 3. Rogue Archers Suck. Not good enough at being an archer, and chances of something being denied dex AND within 30ft CONSISTENTLY and throughout the combat is pretty ludicrous. Flanking is the way to go for sneak damage, with TWF being optimal. 4. You are MUCH better taking scout levels and the mobile archer feats and going for skirmish. At least you will get your d6s on your damage constantly. (You don't have rapid shot or manyshot so firing lots isn't going to matter) I don't see this build being good at archery, I'm sorry. And sneak attack SUCKS at range. 1) I don't care if he's a Greyhawk character. 2) The metaorg doesn't stipulate that the character has to have any particular home region; it simply requires that I play a number of adventures and do some other stuff in the region where I live. 3) I've got a TWF rogue; this archer will do more damage. It helps that it's actually a full archer before you consider the sneak dice. The only thing it lacks compared to a different archer build is the ability to fire while in melee. I will look at the Order of the Bow. 4) 3rd level = Rapid Shot.
_metz_ 05-31-07, 09:22 AM	Sorry, missed the rapid shot. *head desk* If your metaorgs don't require the home region, then awesome. As for the rogue archer, as long as you get wizard support then should work I guess, I am just always a bit of trepidation when i see them, but if it does work, it will be very cool. I will say you are going to be be copping a lot of save or sucks though... Maybe more occult slayer levels.. hmm
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 10:57 AM	As for the rogue archer, as long as you get wizard support then should work I guess, I am just always a bit of trepidation when i see them, but if it does work, it will be very cool. I will say you are going to be be copping a lot of save or sucks though... Maybe more occult slayer levels.. hmm My Rogue Archer is roughly this build, except simpler - 16 Str Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 6/Pious Templar 4(maybe 2 levels in Seeker of the Misty Isle at 14th/15th). I have to tell you - I routinely get comments about how much damage I do and I'm 8th level - i.e. one level before I pick up Weapon Specialization/Ranged Weapon Mastery in one fell swoop. Not to mention, probably look at getting my Belt +4 and a higher strength bow. The problem with Rogue Archers is usually with the player and how they designed them - having a low strength and relying on sneak attack damage to kill things is what makes for bad Rogue Archers. Having a 16+ Str, spending money to upgrade your bow, and asking for spell support if possible is what helps. It also helps to buy opportunistic weapons - I've got a +1 Sacred Bow, so I'm always aiming at flatfooted opponents, evil outsiders, or undead, whichever happens to be around. I'd look to put Tactile Trapfinder in here somewhere - extremely useful feat for Rogue Archers. Also, particularly with Snow Elves, I'd look to put a level of Wizard+4 levels of Unseen Seer in - Guided Shot will make up for Improved Precise Shot and Blink is a killer spell for a Rogue Archer. Rogue 3/Fighter 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 4/Spellsword 3 is a pretty straightforward build and it means you couldn't have simply have been a Wood Elf.
Lomiat 05-31-07, 06:19 PM	Mommy, care to run a breakdown of the Unseen Seer archer build, level by level? I'm curious, but I really like the idea of picking up Improved Precise Shot at 12th level (if I play this character that long). I need to see how the build works out for skill distribution, BAB, sneak dice, etc. before I'll be sold.
Mommy was an Orc 05-31-07, 07:22 PM	Mommy, care to run a breakdown of the Unseen Seer archer build, level by level? I'm curious, but I really like the idea of picking up Improved Precise Shot at 12th level (if I play this character that long). I need to see how the build works out for skill distribution, BAB, sneak dice, etc. before I'll be sold. As soon as you put Rogue, Wizard, and Unseen Seer in the same build, you're talking a minimum of 14th for Improved Precise Shot... It isn't that complicated - get PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Practiced Spellcaster, and CWI as your first 5 feats. Then you have to make the big decision: Weapon Specialization/RWM? or Blink the spell?
clannagh 05-31-07, 07:34 PM	As soon as you put Rogue, Wizard, and Unseen Seer in the same build, you're talking a minimum of 14th for Improved Precise Shot... It isn't that complicated - get PBS, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Practiced Spellcaster, and CWI as your first 5 feats. Then you have to make the big decision: Weapon Specialization/RWM? or Blink the spell? Another good work around instead of taking IPS where natural cover is invovled is to gain the ability to fly .. not a lot of cover when someone is pumping shots in while hovering 25' directly above you.
Morgen 05-31-07, 11:29 PM	Go lots and lots of UMD! One of the best skills in the game if you can invest the time into it and get those scrolls to be used constantly. Then you can do whatever you like as a rogue and sneak attack the living heck out of things. I've seen rogue archers doing huge amounts of damage with a single arrow, and to a red dragon no less.
Lomiat 06-01-07, 12:27 AM	Go lots and lots of UMD! One of the best skills in the game if you can invest the time into it and get those scrolls to be used constantly. Then you can do whatever you like as a rogue and sneak attack the living heck out of things. I've seen rogue archers doing huge amounts of damage with a single arrow, and to a red dragon no less. Yeah, Morgen, Sigis can be very wicked, but I don't think the Snow Elf is likely to get UMD -- despite how good it is. First, his CHA starts at 6. Second, he needs all his skill points (even with a 14 INT) for metaorg access and PrCs. Third, his actual rogue levels (and UMD as a class skill) drop out early and don't reappear until the very end of the build. That means, he won't have enough ranks to make up for his crap CHA to actually UMD. That **is** certainly, though, one of the issues I'd considered when working up the original build. It would probably be easier to cheat in the "UMD" by just taking a level of Wizard to pick up Arrow Mind and head toward Unseen Seer or something. The bugger, here, is that I really, really like the idea of getting Ranged Weapon Mastery by 9th level. With a Belt of Giant Strength +4, Ranged Weapon Master, Point-Blank, and a +1 bow, he'll drop 1d8+11 damage an arrow -- before any subsequent sneak. I'm almost curious to see how the build would work if I dropped 1d6 of precision damage to gain an extra feat through 2 more fighter levels...
Golorious 06-01-07, 01:21 PM	I would not base a build on getting access to a PRC with the Snow Elf. I know the region you are talking about and those metaorgs are starting to go through a review, looking for loopholes just like this, as well as ways to improve them. Regional requirements and a certain number of regional modules played each year will find its way into most meta-orgs. Not all of them of course but most of them. Otherwise it looks like a fun build. Though I would personally skip the occult slayer level and find a way to get close quaters shot or arrow mind.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-02-07, 12:21 AM	I like it. I'd go for the 14 Int and 16 Dex. Yeah, you end up with an odd stat at the end, but you've got 12 levels for something weird to happen or 15 to come across a tome. Skills are always good, and this way you don't have to play it quite as tight with the distribution; you can now afford that rank in perform (sock puppetry). Also around level 12 I hear that archers aren't too desperate to up their to hit bonuses, which is what the dex would help. I'd avoid unseen seer, but that's mostly because I think I'll be seeing a lot of them and would rather play something different. I also like my BAB, not as much as I like my spells, but still...