Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RedKnightofKet 06-22-07, 10:38 AM	I'm planning on making a snow elf monk for Barrow, and I'm trying to plan out his basic progression. In summary, the plan is to go for Imp Natural Attack and enlarge potions (possibly with Delay Potion). Ideally, I don't want to give up flurry progression in any way, as his damage will be based on how many attacks he gets and how much they hit for. My concern is that I don't want to take him past Monk 12 (I don't want the issues of Spell Resistance). Anyone have suggestions on what to take for the last three levels? Is an XP/GP penalty at that point worth it? Our should I intersperse something else earlier? Can anyone think of a good prestige class to fill in there? Str: 14 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 6 1: Monk 1 (Delay Potion, Stunning Fist) 2: Monk 2 (Fiery Fist) 3: Monk 3 (Extra Stunning) - retrain later to.. ? 4: Monk 4 (Wis Boost) 5: Monk 5 6: Monk 6 (Imp Natural Attack) 7: Monk 7 8: Monk 8 (Wis Boost) 9: Monk 9 (Imp Toughness) 10: Monk 10 11: Monk 11 12: Monk 12 (????) 13: ? 14: ? 15: ?
dkay807 06-22-07, 11:00 AM	I'm planning on making a snow elf monk for Barrow, and I'm trying to plan out his basic progression. In summary, the plan is to go for Imp Natural Attack and enlarge potions (possibly with Delay Potion). Ideally, I don't want to give up flurry progression in any way, as his damage will be based on how many attacks he gets and how much they hit for. My concern is that I don't want to take him past Monk 12 (I don't want the issues of Spell Resistance). Anyone have suggestions on what to take for the last three levels? Is an XP/GP penalty at that point worth it? Our should I intersperse something else earlier? Can anyone think of a good prestige class to fill in there? Str: 14 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 6 1: Monk 1 (Delay Potion, Stunning Fist) 2: Monk 2 (Fiery Fist) 3: Monk 3 (Extra Stunning) - retrain later to.. ? 4: Monk 4 (Wis Boost) 5: Monk 5 6: Monk 6 (Imp Natural Attack) 7: Monk 7 8: Monk 8 (Wis Boost) 9: Monk 9 (Imp Toughness) 10: Monk 10 11: Monk 11 12: Monk 12 (????) 13: ? 14: ? 15: ? You're on the right track for sure. I would say - drop Imp Toughness at 9th level and take Weapon Focus (unarmed) instead. Then at 12th, you could take True Believer and finish off with some Pious Templar - taking melee weapon mastery (bludgeoning) at 15th. Granted, you'll have to worship a god like Zuoken or something. One point I'd like to make, however - your AC will be terribly low. Hope that's okay!
_metz_ 06-22-07, 11:08 AM	I would seriously consider a PrC. Straight monk doesn't really cut it in LG, gold curve wise, or in terms of flexibility. Maybe a cleric/monk/sacred fist of a strength domain deity? Competition domain is awesome too, so Kord is an option... This gives you CWI - essential for your gold curve for stat boosters, etc. AND saves the feat on potion reliance a little. Str: 14 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 8 Wis: 16 Cha: 6 1: Cleric1: Practiced Spellcaster: Cleric 2: Monk 1 (Stunning Fist), Improved Unarmed Strike 3: Monk 2 (Combat Reflexes) Combat Casting 4: Cleric2: 5: Cleric3: 6. Sacred Fist1: Craft Wondrous Item 7. Sacred Fist2: 8. Sacred Fist3: 9. Sacred Fist4: Imp Natural Attack 10. Sacred Fist5: 11. Sacred Fist6: 12. Sacred Fist7: Power Attack 13. Sacred Fist8: 14. Sacred Fist9: 15. Sacred Fist10: Imp Toughness You will be: 15th level caster, 11th level Cleric, have the unarmed damage of a 15th level monk, the same speed as a 15th level monk, Dodge bonus of a 15th level monk, Sacred flames (very useful while its on) and some blindsense.
_metz_ 06-22-07, 11:16 AM	Dragon disciple is really good for the claws and strength. Due to the annoying monk restriction on multiclassing, you could go: Monk10/beguiler1/Dragon Disciple4 You don't get greater flurry in that one though. Important: POWER ATTACK IS YOUR FRIEND. you may want to work it in the build somewhere. I really like enlightened/sacred fists, but that is just me. Monks in 3.5/LG just don't ever seem to be well off, money wise, getting smashed cos they have shocking BAB and hitpoints, no AC, etc. But kudos if you want a straight monk!
ShinAkuma2 06-22-07, 12:45 PM	Tattooed Monk requires no multi-classing, and will continue your unarmed damage, AC bonus, and Speed progression. It's got some pretty good abilities, like X/day Haste for your self, X/day +1 to hit and +1d6 to unarmed damage, and the all-mighty re-roll one d20 a day. Best part is, you choose from a long list of abilities, so you can tailor-make your Monk as you choose.
Nutation 06-22-07, 12:53 PM	I would seriously consider a PrC. Straight monk doesn't really cut it in LG, gold curve wise, or in terms of flexibility. Straight monk works fine, it's just harder work than some classes. But, if you're advising sacred fist: - monk first for skill points - requires bab+4, so add another cleric level Here's my build: 1 Monk (Stunning Fist*, Improved Grapple, Combat Casting) 2 Monk (Combat Reflexes*) 3 Cleric of Zuoken [war, celerity] (WF*, Practiced Spellcaster) 4-6 Cleric (Craft Wondrous Item) 7-9 Sacred Fist (Weakening Touch) 10-12 Sacred Fist (water splitting stone) 13-15 Sacred Fist (Quicken Spell?)
Dr.Cornelius 06-22-07, 01:44 PM	This gives you CWI - essential for your gold curve for stat boosters, etc.Gold-wise, how are Monks worse off than any other class without CWI or other feats that turn TUs into gold?
_metz_ 06-22-07, 02:17 PM	Gold-wise, how are Monks worse off than any other class without CWI or other feats that turn TUs into gold? Cos a Monk is far more at risk than most other melee characters. Needs more equipment to back em up. Monks require more consumables Monks require far more stat boosters Monks just get damaged a LOT more, and have few options to offset their damage, such as feats, armour, or fancy tricks. Time and time again they have to be in the fray with a d6 hit die, insufficient BAB progression to hit, and the inability to overcome DR. A Fighter can afford to NOT need Really high Dex, Con, Str, AND wisdom. A monk cannot progress its wisdom AND its Con, so both need to be really high, or have some crazy expensive stones of floaty around headiness. A fighter with 16 str and stock standard full plate has more AC than the monk, and because of power attack and a greatsword does far more damage. The monk doesn't hit, (no BAB), doesn't have much damage going through, and has less hit points and AC. The monk needs to buy twice as much gear to be as effective as a melee character. Ask around, all the monk PCs I know are all seriously cash starved. More so than Fighters/Light Infantry, etc.
Mommy was an Orc 06-22-07, 02:26 PM	Gold-wise, how are Monks worse off than any other class without CWI or other feats that turn TUs into gold? Significantly - there's always the theory running around that because Monks are the best class without magic items that they are the ones that least need them. When it is nearly the opposite - they badly need stat items and usually AC boosters. Most classes need 2 stat boosters(Primary Stat and Constitution) or 1(Wisdom). Monks need 3(Strength, Dexterity, and either Constitution or Wisdom). Notice the problem there - Strength and Dexterity occupy the same slot until you can get a +4 Belt. Something my Monk caster is going to get probably at 8th level...
Dr.Cornelius 06-22-07, 03:12 PM	Your points are well taken - Monks suffer from MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) and have significant limitations. These limitations are somewhat offset by magic items, therefore Monks are very dependent on character wealth. Money aside, I think the crux of the issue is that Monks are underpowered relative to many other classes. Funny you should compare Monk to Fighter, which is considered one of the weakest classes, at least at mid to high levels.
Mommy was an Orc 06-22-07, 04:03 PM	Money aside, I think the crux of the issue is that Monks are underpowered relative to many other classes. They're not especially that weak. People just tend to make horrifyingly suboptimal decisions/builds. Spring Attack, not using a Reach Weapon, not using armor even if it makes sense at low level, etc... Monks are a tactical class - the more tactical of a player you are, the more powerful they become. They've got lots of mobility to range about the battlefield and the ability to lock down opponents in a way that ends combats.
ShinAkuma2 06-22-07, 04:08 PM	Time and time again they have to be in the fray with a d6 hit die, insufficient BAB progression to hit, and the inability to overcome DR. The monk doesn't hit, (no BAB) For one, they have d8 HD. That means they have 1 less hp per level than a Fighter of equal Con. Second, what prevents a Monk from overcoming DR? They can use weapons of special materials, too, you know. Third, insufficient BAB? At worst, a single-class Monk has 5 less BAB than a Fighter. That means he hits just as often as a Fighter who Power Attacks for 5 or more. Are you suggesting that anyone who Power Attacks can never hit? And finally, I'd just like to say that anyone who tries to play a Monk for damage is playing it wrong. Monks are about mobility and backup support for other characters. It doesn't matter that they "[don't] have much damage going through", because that's not what they are there to do.
bitznarf 06-22-07, 04:09 PM	Talk to solbergb about monk options after 12th level. He just reached that with his monk no all that long ago after thoroughly going through all the options mentioned by many people.
Lomiat 06-22-07, 08:49 PM	If you claim that monks suffer in any way, I have a hard time believing it. I have played with Ragecage's monk. His PC just hit 14th character level and was a 12th level monk at 13th level. Sometime between 12th and 13th level, he bought the Wounding enhancement for his Amulet of Three Natural Attacks. This brought him from a solid and fun PC to the "Oh my gosh, I hope he never gets Confused" realm. It helps that whenever I play with him, my wizard will give him Greater Mage Armor and other fun buffs, but he's been pretty solid on his own. Some of my favorite Artie-in-action moments: 1) Artie dodges about 5 eye rays from a beholder because of his high touch AC. 2) Flying Artie plants himself in the middle of 4 huge elementals that can't hit him (or take Fire Shield damage when they do), and the DM calls the fight with 4 mostly-uninjured huge elementals on the battle mat. 3) At a low level, Artie plants himself in front of a door to defend some people while masses of bad guys plan to rush him. He calls for the wizard to fireball, planning to evade... then tanks his Reflex save... Oh well, it was a good idea. 4) Rescue Lady Karistyne? Fly in with spell; Dim Door out with monk class feature. Also, for any high-level monk, the Sun School tactical feat demands a careful inspection.
Umbra_Kaitou 06-22-07, 08:56 PM	Second, what prevents a Monk from overcoming DR? They can use weapons of special materials, too, you know. Yes, but Monks main source of damage comes from their fists and flurry. Monks have a very limited selection of weapon proficiencies, and i don't believe they have access to any weapon without multi-classing that does more that 1d6 =/. UNless you side with the gauntlet argument, monks can't get upgrades to their fists to overcome DR thats common in LG, thus highly detrimental.
Iswald 06-22-07, 09:03 PM	Second, what prevents a Monk from overcoming DR? They can use weapons of special materials, too, you know. They can, unless they take the sacred fist option as suggested. There are a few ways around it still but, they are suboptimal methods.
_metz_ 06-23-07, 12:16 AM	A high level monk is good at what they DO. Sorry about the d6 issue, was a typo lol Problem is: Monk's STRUGGLE to produce damage (And that is what this guy wants to do) A monk with arcane strike, flurry, and Dragon Disciple levels is MUCH better at that imho than a straight monk. AND it gives you the option with enlightened fist levels to take CWI to save money. I am not saying DON'T play a straight monk, I reiterate, power to you if you do! I play a straight rogue and get told its suboptimal ALL the time. However, if you WANT to make a damage producing monk, without power attack OR weapons (which is what this build HAS) it won't work very well. If you are making a monk, I suggest something funky, and a PrC that complements unarmed damage/Dodge bonus and speed. As an aside, Ragecage's monk might be good now at 14th level. (I don't know the character at all so cannot comment) BUT AS YOU JUST SAID -this was DUE TO AN EXPENSIVE MAGIC ITEM. I don't know the source for Amulet of Natural Attacks for its price, but wounding is 8,000 alone, plus the fact I assume it has to be magical first. Add on the 'Standard' requirements of: a +4 belt, +2-4 Con/Wis, +2-4 Dex, and Rings of Protection, Potions of Enlarge, Potions of Mage armour for every fight, Boots of Speed, Monk's Belt, ETC ETC. And you only have a character that gets good after APL 10-12 when they get their gear happening. A tank with a mere magical weapon and Power attack does far more damage raging throughout the APLs. Light Infantry like dervishes, etc do much more damage and are just as fast/tactically flexible Hence I said, a PrC is really needed, and ANY way to reduce the costs of just 'being' a monk, such as CWI or DD for the strength boost, are massive bonuses.
ShinAkuma2 06-23-07, 09:43 AM	Oh, well, I can agree with that. =) My main character is a Monk about to hit 10th, and I love playing him. However, I never try to be the damage-dealer. I concentrate on Stunning, Tripping, and Grappling what I can, so that other characters can fight more effectively.
RedKnightofKet 06-23-07, 11:35 AM	Thanks for all of the replies, folks. I had my suspicion that a straight monk would be a hard road - gear and all being too expensive. I like the Sacred Fist idea - relies on Wis, rather than Int of Cha (adding a 5th ability that needs some points). Here is my new progression (and now human...) Str - 14 Dex - 14 Con - 14 Int - 8 Wis - 16 Cha - 8 1 - Monk 1 (Stunning Fist, Imp Grapple, Power Attack 2 - Monk 2 (Combat Reflexes) 3 - Monk 3 (Combat Casting) 4 - Cleric 1 (Wis +1, diety and domains TBD) 5 - Cleric 2 6 - Cleric 3 (CWI) 7 - Sacred Fist 1 8 - SF 2 (Wis +1) 9 - SF 3 (Practised Spellcaster) 10 - SF 4 11 - SF 5 12 - SF 6 (Wis +1, Imp Natural Attack) 13 - SF 7 14 - SF 8 15 - SF 9 (Sun School?) Comments?
clik_ml 06-23-07, 06:16 PM	I'm curious what sacred fists do when faced with incorporeal opponents. It seems like either they require a druid buddy to cast some form of magic fang, or to allocate their already saturated amulet slot with an amulet of mighty fists (so no +Con, no +Wis... ouch). Is there a decent option beyond those, or are they simply relegated to sitting down and crying for the duration of any battle versus wraiths, dread wraiths, ghosts, shadows, spectres, allips, etc.? But anywho, to the build in question with its 12 monk levels. Do you object strongly to something like 1 Barbarian/2 Wildrunner to cap it off? +6 Str/6 Dex/4 Con plus a bite attack seem like a welcome addition and worthy of the investment of 3 levels and 2 feats (Endurance and Extra Rage). The skills are pricey however and the biggest deterrent in my mind. I'm assuming you are taking Improved Trip as a monk bonus feat (didn't see 6th level one listed), by the by. That's why I'm gravitating towards something that gives a hefty boost to strength. Certainly 3 levels of Pious Templar as was earlier suggested would give plenty of raw damage thanks to unarmed Weapon Spec+Melee Weapon Mastery too.
kjenks 06-23-07, 10:59 PM	Oil of Magic Fang is cheap.
Iswald 06-23-07, 10:59 PM	I'm curious what sacred fists do when faced with incorporeal opponents. I'm guessing that they could start casting healing spells onto the undead. Of course, that's not going to do as much damage as if they could hit with their unarmed strike. Honestly though, having played a Sacred Fist, it's not a PrC that I would recommend to anyone. I admit that it would be easier to play now than when I used to. Enlightened fist is a much better choice. Regarding pious templar and weapon mastery, you could also look at quarterstaves or another blunt weapon instead of unarmed strike. Although it's not as optimal, it would allow more choices. Monks also work well with exotic weapon master. You start with proficiency in many exotic weapons, you just need to pick a weapon focus for one of them. The only reason that you may not want to pick this route is that your unarmed strike is likely to do more damage than any of the weapons you might be using.
Umbra_Kaitou 06-24-07, 12:39 AM	I don;t know about enlightened fist, Monks already take a BAB hit, but the dip in spellcasting creates a major BAB hit as well as an HP hit, and monks are squishy as it is, at least in my opinion
jstorrie 06-24-07, 12:55 AM	Sacred Fist is kind of meh. What about something like Snow Elf Str 16 Dex 16 Con 14 Wis 16 Int 8 Cha 6 1 Monk: Two-Weapon Fighting 2 Monk 3 Monk: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike 4 Monk 5 Monk 6 Monk: Improved Trip, True Believer of Zuoken/Zodal 7 Monk 8 Monk 9 Pious Templar: Improved Natural Attack 10 Pious Templar 11 Pious Templar: Weapon Specialization: Improved Unarmed Strike 12 Pious Templar: Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning), Improved Initiative 13 Pious Templar 14 Pious Templar 15 Pious Templar: Improved Toughness This sort of thing works best with humans, though–not just for the bonus feat but for the ability to do Fighter 2 / Monk 6 / Pious Templar 7 (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=12836780&postcount=59) without experience penalties.
_metz_ 06-24-07, 01:36 AM	I would personally build an enlightened fist dragon disciple if I were going monk... Also take Ascetic Mage and focus on str, dex, con and cha. (cha instead of wisdom) Monk2 Sorceror3 Stats: (Wood Elf) Str: 16 Dex: 16 Con: 13 Int: 8 Wis 8 Cha: 14 1. Monk1: Stunning Fist, Improved Unarmed Strike, Combat Casting 2. Monk2: Fiery Fist (Is open and can be taken) 3. Sorceror1: Practiced Spellcaster: Sorceror 4. Sorceror2: Stat boost Con 5. Sorceror3: 6. Sorceror4: Ascetic Mage 7. Enlightened Fist1: 8. Enlightened Fist2: Stat Boost Str 9. Enlightened Fist3: (Arcane Strike) 10. DD1: +2 Str <Bonus 3rd level spell> 11. DD2: Stat Boost Str Claws <Bonus 3rd level spell> 12. DD3: (Improved Natural Attack) 13. DD4: +2 Str <Bonus 3rd level spell> 14. Enlightened Fist4: 15. Enlightened Fist5: Power Attack? In this build you will be an 8th level sorcerer, with str 22, 50ft movement, Cha to your AC, be a 7th level monk for most abilities, 11th level for AC purposes, and saves will be ok. This build is very reliant on you getting con, cha, str and dex boosters. But needing 4 boosters can be said for any monk build. As a Sorcerer you cast your own Mage armour and Enlarge when you need it. I would have liked to work Craft Wondrous Item in there somewhere though. You get 10 Fiery Fists a day with this build, coupled with arcane strike, high strength, and 2d8 damage on each hit, should be doing a fair bit of damage...
Nutation 06-25-07, 03:14 AM	I'm curious what sacred fists do when faced with incorporeal opponents. Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Cure spells, or cast Bulls Strength on the guy with the ghosttouch weapon.
rutrow424 06-25-07, 12:04 PM	Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Cure spells, or cast Bulls Strength on the guy with the ghosttouch weapon. I'm in the process of developing a sacred fist of Boccob with the Force domain, so Magic Missile, Blast of Force, etc all become options also. Not great options, but options. Essentially, the cleric spells have to come into play whenever DR (or incorporeal) is an issue. As simple as magic/align weapon, or energy damage for cold iron or silver DR. Sacred Fist builds may stink, but I think I prefer the flexibility over straight monk or monk/PT or whatever. I like the idea of going enlightened fist/ascetic mage (and love the DD build), but you are extra weak until ascetic mage kicks in, and the limited spell selection is nice but not earth shattering. Mage Armor, enlarge, false life, etc are all good options, but a Sacred Fist can get many of them via cleric or domains (or doesn't need due to improved HP and BAB).
ShinAkuma2 06-25-07, 12:25 PM	I'm curious what sacred fists do when faced with incorporeal opponents. ...What does a Sacred Fist (aka a Monk/Cleric) do against incorporeal opponents?... Joke question?
clik_ml 06-25-07, 03:17 PM	Magic Weapon, Spiritual Weapon, Cure spells, or cast Bulls Strength on the guy with the ghosttouch weapon. Unfortunately magic weapon does nothing, spirital weapon is a joke, and cure spells beyond their modest damage and saving throw allowance, require you to ya know... touch them. Maybe there's an FAQ out there or something, but my simple understanding is that if you can't touch them then you can't use touch spells on them unless the spell specifically grants that ability. So far the best solution for a sacred fist that I saw was using oil of magic fang, and it is a decent one which is why I didn't press further. Pouring your buffs onto someone who can actually do something is a fair second seat as well. As for it being a joke that a cleric/monk would have troubles... the cleric aspect is down a few levels in spellcasting, and the monk aspect isn't allowed to do jack squat (unless it uses magic fang). So it seemed like a serious question.
bitznarf 06-25-07, 03:28 PM	Magic Weapon means that your weapon has a %50 chance of hiting/damaging it vs. a non magic weapon. Cure spells would work the same as a magic weapon (%50 miss chance). Spiritual weapon: "As a force effect, it can strike incorporeal creatures without the normal miss chance associated with incorporeality". Unless you are trying to say that the damage done by this spell is worthless, in which case I have to disagree, it is a fire and forget spell that works across multiple rounds.
Mommy was an Orc 06-25-07, 03:41 PM	Unfortunately magic weapon does nothing, spirital weapon is a joke, and cure spells beyond their modest damage and saving throw allowance, require you to ya know... touch them. Maybe there's an FAQ out there or something, but my simple understanding is that if you can't touch them then you can't use touch spells on them unless the spell specifically grants that ability. I'm not clear on what the trouble is - Monk's fists count as both natural and manufactured for purposes of spells. You can cast Magic Weapon on a Monk's Unarmed Strike - it says so in the spell itself. For that matter, you can use GMW or GMF on them and there's nothing stopping a party caster from putting the spell on them all day. By the time you're a Sacred Fist, there should be someone in the party capable of doing it. If not yourself...
Iswald 06-25-07, 11:07 PM	Magic Weapon means that your weapon has a %50 chance of hiting/damaging it vs. a non magic weapon. Cure spells would work the same as a magic weapon (%50 miss chance). Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects, such as magic missile or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Cure spells have no miss chance vs incorporeals since they use positive energy. Even if the sacred fist is a LN follower of Wee Jas, they won't have to worry about spontaneous 'cures' missing the target.
bitznarf 06-25-07, 11:10 PM	Opps, my mistake.
clik_ml 06-26-07, 08:11 AM	I'm not clear on what the trouble is - Trouble was that my memory only stretched as far as the "You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang)" bit of the spell, and didn't extend to the more pertinent reference to monk unarmed strikes being kosher. With all due humility considering I was horribly wrong on magic weapon, I remain unconvinced so far that in general a touch spell can be activated on something that is defined as untouchable. Is there any text that says you can use a touch spell on incorporeals, which are noted as not being able to be touched? Not being snarky mind you, tis just an honest question. Positive energy from say, a mass cure spell, or a reach cure spell, would not have the 50% chance of failing certainly, as Iswald kindly noted, but I can't recall seeing anything affirming that touch spells were able to affect an incorporeal critter.
bitznarf 06-26-07, 10:50 AM	Is there any text that says you can use a touch spell on incorporeals, which are noted as not being able to be touched? Not being snarky mind you, tis just an honest question. Positive energy from say, a mass cure spell, or a reach cure spell, would not have the 50% chance of failing certainly, as Iswald kindly noted, but I can't recall seeing anything affirming that touch spells were able to affect an incorporeal critter. If a magic weapon has a 50% chance of touching a incorporeal, a positive energy touch has *at least* the same chance, as it is also a magic weapon. It is also positive energy however, and thus has a 100% chance of dealing damage (assuming that you hit the touch AC).
_metz_ 06-26-07, 10:56 AM	SNIP: Sacred fists suck at dealing with incorporeals (paraphrase) Your statement on Sacred fists and incorporeals makes little sense to me. Magic Weapon/Fang on fists = Can affect incorporeal AS easily as a weapon. ONLY a ghost touch monk weapon would be more effective, and most monks can't afford one. You could also look for access to this spell: GHOST TOUCH WEAPON Transmutation Level: Cleric 3 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Target: One weapon or fifty projectiles (all of which must be in contact with each other at the time of casting) Duration: 1 minute/level (Monk's Hands count as a weapon btw) I have seen access to this spell, and to ghost touch oil as well. If ANYTHING with the exclusion of OWNING a ghost touch weapon, Sacred fists are in a much better position compared to other monks in dealing with incorporeals, especially undead. I find the assertion that they are useless against them to be ridiculous. FINALLY, on the topic of a cure being able to hit an incorporeal target, you can touch a ghost, your hand just goes straight through. However, as the spell is magic, there is a 50% chance it catches the ghost and goes off. The rules are pretty clear on touch attacks, and the rules on ghosts being affected are pretty clear as well.
ShinAkuma2 06-26-07, 12:46 PM	Indeed, just because your hand doesn't touch doesn't mean the energy on your hand doesn't do anything.
Iswald 06-26-07, 12:57 PM	If ANYTHING with the exclusion of OWNING a ghost touch weapon, Sacred fists are in a much better position compared to other monks in dealing with incorporeals, especially undead. I find the assertion that they are useless against them to be ridiculous. Useless? I wouldn't say that. But, is it better to flurry with your unarmed strikes or a monk special weapon missing 50% of the time, assuming that you have a magical weapon, or to cast a cure spell using positive energy which will hit 100% of the time, if you can make a touch attack, yet allows a will save (remember that undead's only good save is their will save) and likely do meager damage? There is also the opportunity cost of using your healing to do damage in battle since you won't be able to use it afterwards. Even a sacred fist with a 6 cha can still turn undead once a day. FINALLY, on the topic of a cure being able to hit an incorporeal target, you can touch a ghost, your hand just goes straight through. However, as the spell is magic, there is a 50% chance it catches the ghost and goes off. The rules are pretty clear on touch attacks, and the rules on ghosts being affected are pretty clear as well. For cures, as pointed out, this isn't an issue. However, other touch spells should be treated just as any other spell. Once you hit, you still have a 50% chance of it not taking effect.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 01:17 PM	As I was saying, the advantage of being a sacred fist is you don't need the consumables other monks may need, and can craft your own gear. I don't see how normal monks are better at dealing with them. (With the exclusion of a ghostouch weapon.) A magic weaponed monk can flurry a ghost, and with the addition of ghost touch to their hands, can do a lot of damage very quickly. Monks with thier high wisdom, str etc often are better able to deal with such foes, AND have the best AC in many cases for dealing with them. (Btw all monks should buy a PoP 1 at LEAST to ask the arcanist to cast mage armour on them each day)