Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Morgen 04-24-07, 11:09 PM	So we've got these cool cards and all, but would it be worth to make a super-heavy armor Snow Elf CoCL? Mountain Plate made mithril to help out first, then take all the armor specialization and greater specialization for the extra AC and the lower armor check penalty, then the CoCL levels to make the armor not slow you down and to raise your allowed dex to something rediculious. So you should end up with a rediculious amount of AC from the armor alone. Fight with a shield, which can easily be dropped for two handing a longsword for power attack. Stats could be something like 16,16,14,12,8,8 because I enjoy a skill point here and there for buying cross class skills and +4 cloaks of charisma are cheaper then +6. Well it's an idea at least. Just take Fighter until you can take champion levels and all.
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 03:28 AM	Other than the bonus to possible Dex to your AC. Mithril Mountain Plate is still heavy armor and you cant run in it.
King Kashue 04-25-07, 03:44 AM	Other than the bonus to possible Dex to your AC. Mithril Mountain Plate is still heavy armor and you cant run in it. Note, he said he's making a Champion of Corellon. At 5th level, their movement isn't impeded by medium or heavy armor.
TWG_Prometheus 04-25-07, 09:20 AM	Most Champions of Corellon are going to want more Dexterity to go with Graceful Strike than heavy armor allows for in an efficient manner. I expect that it'll still prove better to go with a Mithril Breastplate even if you end up dropping a total 1-2 AC over it. A well-built Champion of Corellon with a Mithril Breastplate and a heavy shield will be plenty difficult to hit, and you avoid taking a hit to speed in the process.
LachlarlanIII 04-25-07, 09:42 AM	I would go straight Fighter until you qualify for Champion of Corellon Larethien. After that just pile on the CoCL levels. One thing to note, make sure your Str score is high enough that you aren't encumbered by the weight of your gear. CoCLs might not become encumbered based on armor type, but they still become encumbered if they're carrying too much.
Reylance 04-25-07, 09:55 AM	That's the problem with snow elves. The two prestige classes that are ideal for elven fighters, Champion of Corellon and Wildrunner, both want some amount of Charisma. Ftr7 seems like such a waste for getting into the class. Doing Ftr4 and 3 levels of some other +1 BAB class strikes me as better, but none of them are particularly useful. There's not a lot of synergy with Swashbuckler, Barbarian, Ranger, Hexblade, or ex-Paladin (since you can't be a LG Champion of Corellon). Ranger is probably the best bet, as 3 levels provides a bunch of useful skills and, conveniently, the prerequisites for Wildrunner. But I think a snow elf Champion of Corellon will make a solid melee character.
LachlarlanIII 04-25-07, 11:03 AM	Good point, Fighter4/??3/Champion6/??2 Corellon's Wrath won't be as useful with only one use and the build can't possibly see it's Superior Defence 3 before retirement, so stopping CoCL at 6 could give you more value. Interesting Note: CoCLs wearing standard mountain plate can tumble normally.
King Kashue 04-25-07, 12:33 PM	or ex-Paladin (since you can't be a LG Champion of Corellon). You likely can. We won't know for sure until the new Deities document, but the way the current one is written, the language suggests Champion of Corellon is not subject to the alignment restrictions.
King Kashue 04-25-07, 12:41 PM	Most Champions of Corellon are going to want more Dexterity to go with Graceful Strike than heavy armor allows for in an efficient manner. I expect that it'll still prove better to go with a Mithril Breastplate even if you end up dropping a total 1-2 AC over it. A well-built Champion of Corellon with a Mithril Breastplate and a heavy shield will be plenty difficult to hit, and you avoid taking a hit to speed in the process. A 5th level Champion won't take a hit to speed in either instance (one of the main benefits of the class). And a 6th Level Champion will have a max dex bonus of +4 in Mithril Mountain plate. My objection to mountain plate is that I don't think it's worth spending a feat on...Mithril Mountain Plate is a max AC of 14 at level 6 (plus you can't run until 5th level champion). Mithril Full Plate is a max AC of 13 at level 6... You're basically spending a feat to get +1 AC and keep yourself from running for 5 levels, not a great trade if you have anything else to spend that feat on, and there's plenty for a Champion.
Reznor00 04-25-07, 01:16 PM	You just have to worship Corellon to get access to the class as special. It doesn't say you can't be LG. Since Paladin alignment is always LG regardless of there God, it doesn't make sense that they lose there Paladin abilities hwen taking levels in Champion of Corellon Larethian. In fact Corellon's Blessing stacks with Paladin levels so it seems to me that there shouldn't be a problem with remaining LG and keeping all your Paldin stuff and advancing in the CoCL class. There is not requirement for worshipper to a god, and that's all your have to have for Champion your not granted any Divine Spells form the class. I haven't looked over the Greyhawk Gods document in regards to this but the way the RAW reads it doesn't make sense to force an alignment change from LG to another alignment with the way the class reads and it's flavor too. ~MB
King Kashue 04-25-07, 01:32 PM	In fact Corellon's Blessing stacks with Paladin levels so it seems to me that there shouldn't be a problem with remaining LG and keeping all your Paldin stuff and advancing in the CoCL class. The people who are saying you can't be a Lawful Good Champion are basing it off the LG Deities doc, so the class as may have additional LG restrictions... Though as has been pointed out before, the reading is likely that only spell casting classes and the Evangelist have alignment requirements...
NeSoDak 04-25-07, 02:19 PM	I have a CoCL and when I first started the creation process I had several people, including a Regional triad member tell me that I couldn't take Paladin levels, be Lawful Good and later take levels of CoCL. The main problem they found was that the LG restriction for Paladins doesn't mesh with the wording in the LG Dieties doc for within one step of your god's alignment. Being as Corellion is CG (two steps C-N-L). I understand that the text in the RoW for CoCL talks about stacking paladin levels with the CoCL levels, but this is what I was told when I created mine. And the judges who told me this said that they would rule that way when I played and that I would lose my paladin goodiness. Again, this is just the way the people around me were interpreting the rules from the dieties document. And rather than fight with them over it (since they would be judging the mods this character was going to be playing in) I went with it and gave him 3 levels of swashbuckler. Which with the Int bonus to damage really gives you some high damage output for a two-weapon fighter. I've also been told and good addition is levels of Wildrunner, which allows you to increase your dex modifier. Which by default increases AC and damage. And if you are using Elven Thinblades, the Weapon Finesse feat from swashbuckler allows that higher dex to give you a better chance to hit when you power attack. I'm finding right now the only real problem I am having with my CoCL (which won't actually have a level of CoCL until next level) is that I don't have much against creatures that I can't crit. The extra damage from swashbuckler and CoCL doesn't effect non critable creatures. But other than that I've enjoyed the build.
Timlagor 04-25-07, 02:43 PM	The 'one step' rule is an LG Campaign rule and not a Core D&D rule.
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 03:14 PM	I think that that is begging for table variation. The Unimpeded Movement ability the class gains is just a lesser version of the Dwarven racial ability. And even Dwarves suffer a movement penalty in that armor. Dwarf - Suffer no penalty to movement in Medium or Heavy Armor, or when carrying a Medium or Heavy load (Dwarf suffers movement penalty in Mountain Plate) Unimpeded Movement - Suffer no pensalty to movement in Medium or Heavy Armor, but do suffer it when carrying a Medium or Heavy load (But the Elf would not ?) Note, he said he's making a Champion of Corellon. At 5th level, their movement isn't impeded by medium or heavy armor.
LachlarlanIII 04-25-07, 03:35 PM	I think that that is begging for table variation. The Unimpeded Movement ability the class gains is just a lesser version of the Dwarven racial ability. And even Dwarves suffer a movement penalty in that armor. I would be inclined to agree if Unimpeded Movement referenced the Dwarf racial ability in some way, but it doesn't. Dwarf - Suffer no penalty to movement in Medium or Heavy Armor, or when carrying a Medium or Heavy load (Dwarf suffers movement penalty in Mountain Plate) Unimpeded Movement - Suffer no pensalty to movement in Medium or Heavy Armor, but do suffer it when carrying a Medium or Heavy load (But the Elf would not ?) A 9th level Dwarven Knight moves at full speed while wearing mountain plate, and gains the ability to do so ~3 levels earlier.
Mithreinmaethor 04-25-07, 04:10 PM	This will be one of those that will probably end up in the FAQ at some point. But just as an example all other Heavy Armors only reduce your speed to 20 (if 30 ft movement) or 15 (if 20 ft movement). This Heavy armor is special in that it reduces you even further to 15 (if 30 ft movement) and 10 if (20 ft movement). But there are better armors for what he is trying to accomplish. I would be inclined to agree if Unimpeded Movement referenced the Dwarf racial ability in some way, but it doesn't. A 9th level Dwarven Knight moves at full speed while wearing mountain plate, and gains the ability to do so ~3 levels earlier.
bitznarf 04-25-07, 04:25 PM	I have a CoCL and when I first started the creation process I had several people, including a Regional triad member tell me that I couldn't take Paladin levels, be Lawful Good and later take levels of CoCL. Note that regional triads have no extra authority to make a ruling on rules issues. If the triad member was simply stating what his opinion on the rules is, fine. If he/she was making a ruling, that is not kosher. At least that is my understanding on the matter. I'm sure that if I am wrong, somebody will point that out within 5 posts.
TWG_Prometheus 04-25-07, 04:36 PM	Note that regional triads have no extra authority to make a ruling on rules issues. If the triad member was simply stating what his opinion on the rules is, fine. If he/she was making a ruling, that is not kosher. At least that is my understanding on the matter. I'm sure that if I am wrong, somebody will point that out within 5 posts. You're right, but at the same time it is still sound advice. The people that can make such rulings are Judges and Senior Judges. It's one thing to have some opinions against a certain part of your character, and another to have the build invalidated or to have an Atonement forced due to the ambiguity with Paladin Champions of Corellon. Put more simply, Paladin Champions of Corellon are exposed to far too high a level of table variation risk, and the Triad in question was wise to give that advice. That, and Paladin doesn't actually go together all that well with the Champion PrC anyway...
bitznarf 04-25-07, 04:46 PM	Perhaps a holy liberator might be the better way to go? I think you can get into it a 6th level. FullBAB1/Fig4/HL2/CoC6/HL+2 Off the top of my head that might work. If you plan on using mountain plate I don't see something like wild runner being of much use. It might work well if you use mithral full plate, if I am remembering what the various PrCs give you. I haven't looked at CoC or HL much, so I don't know what level they get which abilities at what level. As an added bonus your HL companion advances with character level, not class level.
LachlarlanIII 04-25-07, 05:07 PM	Perhaps a holy liberator might be the better way to go? I think you can get into it a 6th level. FullBAB1/Fig4/HL2/CoC6/HL+2 Off the top of my head that might work. If you plan on using mountain plate I don't see something like wild runner being of much use. It might work well if you use mithral full plate, if I am remembering what the various PrCs give you. I haven't looked at CoC or HL much, so I don't know what level they get which abilities at what level. As an added bonus your HL companion advances with character level, not class level. As a Snow Elf that build'll have a 20% xp/gp penalty for the majority of it's career.
bitznarf 04-25-07, 05:17 PM	As a Snow Elf that build'll have a 20% xp/gp penalty for the majority of it's career. Eh, maybe Fig4/Ran3/CoC6/WR2 might be the way to go then.
Alpha_Nerd 04-26-07, 01:14 PM	A 5th level Champion won't take a hit to speed in either instance (one of the main benefits of the class). And a 6th Level Champion will have a max dex bonus of +4 in Mithril Mountain plate. My objection to mountain plate is that I don't think it's worth spending a feat on...Mithril Mountain Plate is a max AC of 14 at level 6 (plus you can't run until 5th level champion). Mithril Full Plate is a max AC of 13 at level 6... You're basically spending a feat to get +1 AC and keep yourself from running for 5 levels, not a great trade if you have anything else to spend that feat on, and there's plenty for a Champion. Here's the problem. Mithral Full Plate is Medium Armor, which makes it impossible to use with Heavy Armor Opt and GHAO. So, you're basically spending 3 feats to get +3 AC -3 ACP and keep yourself running for 5 levels.
Reylance 04-26-07, 02:27 PM	Perhaps a holy liberator might be the better way to go? I think you can get into it a 6th level. FullBAB1/Fig4/HL2/CoC6/HL+2 Off the top of my head that might work. If you plan on using mountain plate I don't see something like wild runner being of much use. It might work well if you use mithral full plate, if I am remembering what the various PrCs give you. I haven't looked at CoC or HL much, so I don't know what level they get which abilities at what level. As an added bonus your HL companion advances with character level, not class level. That level would have to be ex-Paladin or Swashbuckler, I think, due to the requirement to have 5 ranks of two Fighter cross-class skills, Diplomacy and Sense Motive. You need to make these skills class skills to take Holy Liberator at 6th, instead of 8th, level.
King Kashue 04-30-07, 01:38 AM	Here's the problem. Mithral Full Plate is Medium Armor, which makes it impossible to use with Heavy Armor Opt and GHAO. So, you're basically spending 3 feats to get +3 AC -3 ACP and keep yourself running for 5 levels. So 1 feat for +1 AC isn't worth it, but 3 feats for +3 AC is? :confused: How's the math work on that?... If all you're trying to do is utterly max AC, then sure, that's gonna be the best way, but honestly, there's other feats that are likely to be better, even for a defensively-oriented fighter...
NeSoDak 04-30-07, 08:58 AM	If all you're trying to do is utterly max AC, then sure, that's gonna be the best way, but honestly, there's other feats that are likely to be better, even for a defensively-oriented fighter... How about taking Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense. It will allow you to increase your AC while fighting and give you extra damage if you hit.
King Kashue 04-30-07, 03:05 PM	How about taking Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense. It will allow you to increase your AC while fighting and give you extra damage if you hit. Great example of other feats to look at...