Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Landale 03-26-07, 03:23 PM	Ok. I have a level 4 fighter. Sadly, what I wanted to do with him won't work. So, I will have to spend 3-4 levels retraining the feats I took for a better build. So. The idea I have in mind is a completely shield-based fighter. Now...when I say shield-based, I mean shield-based. And yes, after drawing this out, I suddenly realized I made a Captain America character. Here is the build I want to do. Stats are unimportant, as I have all the prereqs for the feats to follow: Improved Shield Bash Combat Expertise Imp. Combat Expertise Weapon Focus (Shield bash) Weapon Spec (Shield bash) Shield Spec. Two-Weapon Fighting Shield Charge Shield Slam Sling Shield And that's all I have so far. So, here's what shield I would be using primarily: +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Steel Shield. If I'm reading all of the rules correctly, I will be doing 2d6 points of damage with this shield. This is where I need clarification: The bashing enhancement increases the damage on the shield by two size categories of the medium size. So, in the case of my medium heavy steel shield, it goes from 1d4 to 1d8. This I do not doubt. What I'm confused on is this: shield spikes say that adding a spike increases the damage by one size category than the medium damage. If I'm reading that right, since my medium-sized heavy steel shield does 1d8 damage with the bashing property, that means that by adding a spike, and thus 1 size category to damage, I'm doing 2d6, according to the table in the DMG (pg...late 20s to early 30s, I can't remember the exact one atm). So my first question is am I correct in my analysis of the wording here? My second question is since the bashing enhancement of the shield makes the shield as if it were a +1 weapon when bashing, will that still hold over if I put a spike on it? I would assume yes, but better to ask. And as a third question, is it possible to put the Returning enhancement on another shield (say a light steel one), since you can enhance the shield as a weapon, and it will have a range increment since I have shield sling? Thanks! =D
Munkwunk 03-26-07, 04:23 PM	Short answer: You are correct. Long answer: Because adding shield spikes to a shield makes it effectively a Spiked Heavy Shield, it is treated as one object for the purposes of enhancements. You are not buying a heavy shield + spikes, which would be something entirely different and force you to upgrade each piece seperately. So a Spiked Heavy Shield deals 1d6 points of damage, and adding the Bashing quality increases the damage to 2d6. The bashing quality on its own assumes that, when you are attacking with the spiked shield, you have not enchanted the spikes seperately as a weapon, so it needed to indicate that the shield counted as magical for purposes of overcoming DR and such. However, you may still enchant the spikes seperately (essentially, you are enchanting the shield as both armor and a weapon) but any enhancement bonuses you add to the spikes will override the bonus gained from the Bashing quality, since multiple enhancement bonuses don't stack. Once you have the Shield Sling feat, you satisfy the requirement that the Returning property must be applied to a thrown weapon. Therefore, you shouldn't have any problems justifying the use of Returning on your spiked shield (and it seems like the intent of the feat to be able to do so). Unless I'm unaware of some FAQ or errata, I believe all of the above is accurate.
Landale 03-26-07, 05:09 PM	Excellent! If anybody has anything to add or correct, please let me know, otherwise I'll begin working on this immediately. Thanks! =D ~Landale
UMiskatonic 03-26-07, 06:27 PM	It will -not- work as a returning weapon for anyone else, because without the shield sling feat, it's not a ranged weapon for them. I don't think that's a problem for your build, I'm just sayin'. ------------------------------------------ Other feat ideas.... I'm not in love with TWF for this build. While you can fight weapon and shield if you like, I don't see it as a huge advantage. If you really want a penalty to hit, I'd suggest Power Attack. That will do far more damage. (this assumes a shield is a 1-H weapon, which I'm too lazy to look up right now) Another decent feat would be Improved Unarmed Strike. Or two levels of monk (assuming lawful). You'll get three good feats, and this would be the kind of character that could justify deflect arrows. evasion and +2 on all saves ain't too bad either. ----------------------------------------- Class-wise, where ya goin? I mean, it's a feat-heavy build, and so fighter levels make sense. However, fighter 15 probably isn't the best that you can do.
Landale 03-26-07, 07:49 PM	I should mention exactly what I'm thinking about with this build. Here would be my two weapons: +1 Bashing Spiked Heavy Steel Shield - 2d6 (magic armor, normal weapon) - main-hand +1 Returning Spiked Light Steel Shield - 1d6 (normal armor, magical weapon) - off-hand So essentially what I would do is attack all my attacks with the main-hand and use my off-hand attack for one of two purposes: a.) Another smack to the face of the nearest enemy in melee range or b.) a ranged attack to damage or a ranged touch attack to trip (sling shield) with my off-hand. If for some reason I don't get my shield to return to my hand, I still have a spiked gauntlet, or some other light off-hand weapon to do damage with. That is one reason why I chose TWF. In addition, I chose TWF over Power Attack because I have Improved Combat Expertise, and while the option would be great between defense and offense, I would more often than not go defense.
Munkwunk 03-26-07, 07:58 PM	Why not take Agile Shield Fighter over TWF? It sounds like you're not really planning on taking ITWF and GTWF, and using ASF (yay, so many acronyms!) will save you from having to keep a high Dex. If you can swing using the Knight's Code, you might take a couple of levels of that for the nice shield synergies, too.
Landale 03-26-07, 08:11 PM	I thought of that, but I was concerned about the wording of ASF implying that I could not do this with 2 shields. Would someone wielding two shields be able to use ASF instead of TWF and still have it act the same? Thanks! BTW, I should mention, I am not married to the idea of wielding two shields, it just seems interesting. Another two questions I just thought of: I also threaten the squares around me with just a shield, don't I (meaning I can take attacks of opportunity with my shield)? And when my base attack bonus hits +6/+1, I do get the two attacks with a shield, correct?
Eric Anondson 03-26-07, 08:57 PM	You've got Shield Charge, and Two Weapon Fighting. I'd counsel another option, while the Shield Sling if nifty, I'm not sure it is good enough. Ditch the Shield Sling, Combet Expertise, and Improved Combat Expertise, look for Two-Weapon Pounce, Two-Weapon Rend, Power Attack. You are going to be charging with Shield Charge, so get some more out of the charge. With a charge you will be getting the trip attempt from the Shield Charge, you will get the Fort save or daze from the Shield Slam, and you will get the second attack from Two-Weapon Pounce. If you hit with both attacks on the charge you will also get in the rend damage from the Two-Weapon Rend. I have a character nearing retirement who has long been a shield bashing fighter who did also take two monk levels for the Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrow, and Stunning Fist, evasion, and pumped up saves. With the off-hand weapon being his open hand, he also took a Weakening Touch (spend stunning fist, deal –6 to Str, no save). He does have Two Weapon Fighting, he got that from some levels in Ranger. So with his charge, he races in with his spiked adamantine heavy shield to Shield Charge (for the trip), Shield Slam (for the daze), Two-Weapon Pounce (for the extra attack), Weakening Touch with the off hand (to deal –6 Str to target), and Two-Weapon Rend (for some more damage). If he knows the target doesn't have scary AC then he pumps up Power Attack. Just some food for thought as an alternate.
pneumatik 03-27-07, 09:33 AM	There's a feat in PHB II that lets you add your shield's armor bonus to your touch AC and to resist being grappled, bull-rushed, and tripped. Your bashing heavy shield is at least +3 to AC, so it might be worth considering. I know my pally with Divine Shield can't wait to take it.
KShaver 03-27-07, 11:54 AM	I'd just skip TWF all together. The shield is a medium sized weapon and thus can be used two-handed. Frees up a lot of feats in the long run and makes power attack a lot tastier.
clik_ml 03-27-07, 02:21 PM	I'd just skip TWF all together. The shield is a medium sized weapon and thus can be used two-handed. Frees up a lot of feats in the long run and makes power attack a lot tastier. As long as you're two-handing a shield, let's go all out and up its size to a large sized heavy shield. Then it's required to be wielded with two hands at -2 to hit, but hey 3d6 damage with the bashing enhancement. I'm fairly certain it's all legal and on the up-and-up, but some judges will at the very least look at you funny, if not say "rules be damned that won't fly."
Munkwunk 03-27-07, 03:54 PM	A Large-sized greatsword/axe deals 3d6 damage and doesn't cost nearly as much as a +1 Bashing Spiked Shield. Any judge who says "rules be damned" for a shield that deals as much damage, at a MUCH higher cost, is a jerk. The only difference here is GP vs. a feat (Monkey Grip). Agile Shield Fighter should work with two shields; it says "When making a shield bash attack and an armed strike attack..." and a shield bash attack counts as an armed strike (it is listed as a martial melee weapon). Likewise, that means you should be able to make attacks of opportunity while wielding only a shield. I kind of like the Two-eapon Pounce/Rend idea on top of Shield Charge. That seems nifty.
KShaver 03-27-07, 04:03 PM	As long as you're two-handing a shield, let's go all out and up its size to a large sized heavy shield. Then it's required to be wielded with two hands at -2 to hit, but hey 3d6 damage with the bashing I haven't gotten to look at the new CS, do they let you buy large equipment now, that is at least without documentation? As an additional note, statistically its not worth doing compared to just power attacking for an extra couple of points a swing: -2 to hit for +1d6 < -2 to hit for +4 dmg If you are maxing out your power attack already and still hitting just fine then perhaps you coud get away with an oversized shield, but you would need a lot of strength and other to hit modifiers to keep any sort of a decent attack value.
lunarfish 03-27-07, 08:18 PM	Kshaver: the difference is that a Heavy Steel Shield is a one-handed weapon for the purposes of Shield Bash + Power Attack. Even wielding it in two hands causes the power attack to be worth 1.5xPA. The -2 to hit becomes 3 points of damage, where the enlarged shield becomes -2 to hit for 3.5 points of damage average. It's not going to be terribly noticeable, however, and losing the die will cause DMs to look less askance at you. However, if a DM is looking askance at a shieldbashing build, then they're jerks anyway.
KShaver 03-27-07, 09:36 PM	Even wielding it in two hands causes the power attack to be worth 1.5xPA. The -2 to hit becomes 3 points of damage, 3.5 rules are 2 for 1 when power attacking with a one handed weapon held in both hands (PHB pg 98 - Power Attack). In this manner power attack does more damage, its the same argument as power attack + 2d6 greatsword vs monkey grip + 3d6 greatsword. Straight math says the power attack is slightly better to have (by .5 dmg per swing). In addition you also get to choose the penalty to hit and bonus to damage, should you need one or the other more in any given circumstance. Again, you may also have both an oversized weapon and power attack, but you need to compensate for the larger penalties to hit, though you will be able to do incredible amounts of damage when you do hit. In the case of the shield, you don't need monkey grip to use an oversized heavy shield in both hands, you would only need it if you wanted to one hand it (still as a 3d6 weapon). So in this case you are comparing one feat to another, but one penalty to another, the power attack is higher dmg, doesn't require special large item access and and allows you to one hand it when needed, but the latter does not require a feat, just large item access. Of course if you wanted to use a feat then monkey grip plus the oversized item allows you to one hand it again and when using it in strictly one hand it would be a larger boost than power attacking while using it in one hand (since the one handed power attack would only be 1:1).
clik_ml 03-27-07, 09:46 PM	Even wielding it in two hands causes the power attack to be worth 1.5xPA. It's actually for 2xPA, I bet yer thinking of 1.5xStr Mod for using two hands. I'm fairly certain large equipment (armor and weapons) is now open access to all, to answer your query KShaver. Making it large isn't super, and in fact it is ever so slightly inferior to power attacking, however you can do it *and* power attack. Not a huge selling point, but there's something to it.
KShaver 03-27-07, 10:06 PM	I'm fairly certain large equipment (armor and weapons) is now open access to all, to answer your query KShaver. Thanks, I'll have to look that up. That would certainly open a few new interesting character ideas, at least without having to pray for ar access to the gear you want. Now in regards to using two shields, that is something that has crossed my mind a few times. Whether or not I would use twf is open to debate, I'd hazard to say no simply because of the number of feats that twf eats up in the long run. What I can say is optimum enhancements would be maximum armor enhancement bonus bashing on the spiked shield, minimum +1 on the spike itself followed up by other weapon abilities such as shocking (same concept as using a +1 shocking/flaming/frost bow with +5 arrows, the shield provides the base + while the spike provides the enhancements), then minimum +1 on the second shield again followed by shield/armor special abilities. This keeps the cost relatively low, while still keeping maximum enchancement bonus for both your shield and your weapon while still gaining a number of additional weapon and armor enhancements. Combat wise the character would have the option of using the shield in one or two hands depending on whether or not they needed the extra enhancements on the second shield (if it has a situational ability like arrow catching). If I had to plan on duel wielding shields I also would still stay away from the oversized shield, instead opting for two normal sized heavy shields and picking up OTWF(Oversized two-weapon fighting - Complete Adventurer). You would want to use both shields as the same type since light/heavy shields are different weapons on the chart, meaning weapon focus and weapon spec both have to specify light or heavy. The largest problem with two bashing shields is their cost would be astronomical compared to most other fighting types, since you are effectively purchasing both two magic weapons and two magic shields.
lunarfish 03-27-07, 11:43 PM	[begin humor] Gah, whatever. Your power attack still pales in comparison to my spells, or becomes unusable to my Crippling Strike. [/end humor] On a more serious note, I've never bothered to think much about the power attack feat. Any character I play with either have precision based damage or spells - I've got one power attacker, and I hate the math involved to the point where I'll frequently choose not to power attack and just swing instead. It's purely laziness, but the side effect is that I've never really read the rules for power attacking closely. Thanks for the correction.
Morgen 03-28-07, 12:41 AM	Yeah, but Eric your Shield Fighter was also spending most fights polymorphed into a troll or a hill giant. ;) Still a nasty build, all the better for wierd combatants in LG. I love it! That shield fighter is just below Ham and Axe as my favorite LG character.
Eric Anondson 03-28-07, 01:31 AM	Yeah, but Eric your Shield Fighter was also spending most fights polymorphed into a troll or a hill giant. ;) Still a nasty build, all the better for wierd combatants in LG. I love it! That shield fighter is just below Ham and Axe as my favorite LG character.Ah, only when the cohort could come along. The troll and annis hag forms (not giant) were to get the Str bonus, which put the Shield Slam DC into obscene levels. DC 30 or be dazed until my next turn was a ton of fun. Ah, polymorph, where are thee now! Well, with the removal of polymorph... dismissed wizard cohort for a cleric of Trithereon (for the recitation synergy) cohort with Divine Ward and Domain Spontenaity (Liberation). Already spontaneous freedom of movement at close range has saved his rear, Close-ranged stoneskins (Strength domain), Close-range heals. She's a blast. I'm quite pleased with the change and I don't so much miss the high Shield Slam DCs as much. I don't suppose you've seen the new improved, fun for the whole party, 13th-level cleric cohort?
Morgen 03-28-07, 01:34 AM	No, gods..haven't played LG since like last year. Need to get Morgen into some hgiher APL mods but everyone wants to play at like the worst time or day for me. Either that or we've grown the base of high level characters that no one wants Morgen around anymore.
Landale 03-29-07, 03:31 PM	Ok, so I've been noticeably absent in this, mostly weighing my options and talking to people. I'm still not sure on some of the feats, and some people have pointed them out, but the cost is not a big thing. I was only planning on enchanting the shield as a +1 bashing heavy steel shield. It will cost 4180 gold, will have 3AC (4AC when I get shield spec), and will bash as a +1 weapon doing 2d6 damage. Now of course I could enchant the spike by making it flaming or whatnot, but that would come much later when money isn't an issue.
Landale 04-23-07, 03:23 PM	Hey everyone. I do want to thank the people for their advice on this particular thread. I have not yet reached the point where I can do this stuff, and that may actually be a good thing. Can anybody confirm or deny that a medium-sized +1 Spiked Bashing Heavy Steel Shield will do 2d6 damage with a shield bash? And if so, can that person point me to the documentation (sage advice, faq, anything official)? It has come to my attention that the possibility exists that the shield spikes and the bashing property do not stack for determining damage for a shield bash. I just want documentation for or against this (in case questions/eyebrows get raised). I believe you guys, I'm just asking for my DM's unbridled curiosity. Thanks! =)
Iswald 04-25-07, 10:47 AM	Can anybody confirm or deny that a medium-sized +1 Spiked Bashing Heavy Steel Shield will do 2d6 damage with a shield bash? And if so, can that person point me to the documentation (sage advice, faq, anything official)? Bashing and shield spikes do stack to increase your damage three steps (it's in the FAQ). From page 28 of the DMG, a 1d4 damage weapon (heavy shield) would increase to 2d6 damage. I'm fairly certain that I read somewhere that you couldn't wield two shields at the same time. However, I've never been able to find the source for that when I've looked since.
Landale 04-25-07, 10:56 AM	Yeah, the consensus is that they do stack, but I'm just looking for some kind of documentation in case a DM calls shenanigans. Where is the link to the FAQ that I keep seeing people talk about? I cannot seem to find it anywhere. Thanks for the response! =)
KShaver 04-25-07, 11:18 AM	Where is the link to the FAQ that I keep seeing people talk about? I cannot seem to find it anywhere. www.wizards.com -> Dungeons and Dragons -> Game Rules -> Game Rules FAQ -> v.3.5 Main D&D FAQ -> pg 40 lower left hand corner It specifically states that if you add bashing to a spiked shield that you increase the normal shield bash damage by 3 steps (2 for bashing and 1 for shield spikes).
Landale 04-25-07, 11:43 AM	That is awesome, thank you so much for the help. I'll have to read through that FAQ now, too. Much appreciated!
Landale 04-26-07, 03:37 PM	Ok, I think this will be the last question I'll need to ask before I start re-making my fighter. If I take agile shield fighter, does that mean that I can make a longsword armed attack and a heavy steel shield bash and still only take the -2 to the attacks? I found the wording slightly ambiguous for AFS since it said it replaced the modifiers for two weapon fighting, and so I wanted to be sure of whether I can use a longsword in conjunction with a heavy steel shield or not. I don't think I can, but hey...just in case I can.... =). Thanks!
Iswald 04-26-07, 10:45 PM	If I take agile shield fighter, does that mean that I can make a longsword armed attack and a heavy steel shield bash and still only take the -2 to the attacks? With the feat and taking an extra attack, you only have -2 to your attacks. If you don't want to take an extra attack, using only your normal iteratives, you can switch between weapons without taking a penalty (or using a feat to do so).
Landale 04-26-07, 10:52 PM	Right, but the main thing with AFS is that I could make a Heavy Steel Shield bash and do a longsword attack in the same round without penalties for not having a light "off-hand" weapon, yes? Or am I looking into the wording of AFS too much?
clik_ml 04-27-07, 06:45 AM	For what it's worth, I was pondering a shield-based fighter and here's what I was coming up with. 1 Marshal/6 Ftr/1 Barb/1 Bard/6 Warchanter Human 16/8/14/14/8/14 (bumps to str) Marshal aura:(+cha to str checks or art of war, whichever) Feats: 1)CombatExpertise 1h)Imp Shield Bash 2f)ImpTrip 3f)WFocus(shield bash) 3)Power Attack 5f)Shield Charge 6)WSpec(shield bash) 7f)Shield Slam 9)Extra Rages 12)MeleeWMastery(piercing) 15)Reckless Rage At low levels you are basically a tripster, likely with a reach weapon. At 5th level you can finally shield charge with a trip check of +10 at medium size and no buffs or itemry. At 8th level Shield Slam has a DC of 18 [edit, actually 20] with rage (and not counting magic boosts), which isn't awesome, but it is alright- compares to 4th level spells with +6 casting mod... pretty equivalent. At 9th level you are dealing reasonable damage with a spiked shield bash + rage as hopefully you've afforded a bashing shield enhancement by now. At 12th level you can inspire recklessness and deal incredible damage which synergizes nicely with being able to daze your opponents. Later levels just ramp stuff up with increased strength from rage + bardic music for kicks. Before you retire you would be pimping about with a +19 trip check while medium sized, +24 with a potion of enlarge person quaffed (that would put optimal Shield Slam DC up to 28 as well). Criticisms of this build would be that it is all offense and little defense, and that it is a little weak at early levels if you insist on using a shield exclusively.
KarmaInferno 04-28-07, 02:52 PM	Agile Shield Fighter makes Oversized Off hand Weapon totally useless in this situation. ASF does not care about what type of shield you are using, just that you are using a Shield Bash. If you're planning on being a shield bash specialist, but not going the rest of the way up the Two Weapon Fighting chain, ASF is a good choice. It does, however, eat up two feats, one for ASF, one for Shield Specialization. As for two-handed wielding vs wielding two shields, it can be argued that you still get all the 'named' enchantments on the shield you are not claiming the shield bonus on, on top of any enchantments on the other shield. So that's a consideration. I would also consider adding Blood Spiked Charger into the mix if you can. It has a number of abilities that mesh nicely with other ones for charging with a shield. -karma
Crazy Boro 04-28-07, 05:08 PM	I'm actually in the process of doing a shield bashing build, but without the usual shield charge and shield slam. Basic build layout is: Dwarf str 15 dex 12 con 18 int 8 wis 14 cha 6 1: Ranger 1: Track, Power Attack 2: Barbarian 1 3: Fighter 1: Extra Rage, Improved Shield Bash 4: Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting 5: Barbarian 2 6: Ranger 3: Reckless Rage, Endurance 7: Deepwarden 1 8: Deepwarden 2 9: Fighter 2: Weapon Focus(Spiked Shield), Weapon Focus(Armor Spikes) 10: Fighter 3 11: Fighter 4: Blood-Spiked Charger 12: Fighter 5: Two-Weapon Rend 13: Fighter 6: Weapon Specialization(Spiked Shield) 14: Fighter 7 15: Fighter 8: Driving Attack, Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing) All bumps are to strength and will look at wearing the best armor boost overall from armor bonus + con as possible. When I can, charge with Blood-Spiked Charger and hit twice for the rend and follow next round with 2-handed Driving Attack to knock the baddie prone if it will be handy. It's my first dwarf in play so I hope it turns out well.
Landale 04-29-07, 03:01 PM	Agile Shield Fighter makes Oversized Off hand Weapon totally useless in this situation. ASF does not care about what type of shield you are using, just that you are using a Shield Bash. If you're planning on being a shield bash specialist, but not going the rest of the way up the Two Weapon Fighting chain, ASF is a good choice. It does, however, eat up two feats, one for ASF, one for Shield Specialization. Awesome. That's what I was hoping to hear. I had fully intended to take Shield spec anyway, if only for the extra +1 shield bonus to AC. I want to be a wall, of sorts, especially in those situations in close quarters. Thanks for the clarification! =)