Post/Author/DateTime	Post
copper_wyrmling 03-15-07, 07:29 PM	These are just some builds I'm putting together. Any comments or tweaks would be much appreciated :) The first two are pretty cheesy (and the second one has some tricks I wouldn't use except in emergencies), the third is - I think - a decent build but not uberpowerful. None of these are especially original in concept, but I don't think I've seen these particular variations plotted out in full, so here they are... === Dire-bat-riding warrior-druid lancer Race: Human (required for feats and avoiding multiclass penalties) Alignment: NG / N / LN Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 8 1: Druid 1 - Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack (animal companion, nature sense, wild empathy) 2: Fighter 1 - Spirited Charge, Martial Weapon Proficiency 3: Fighter 2 - Power Attack, Natural Bond (requires access) 4: Druid 2 (woodland stride) 5: Druid 3 (trackless step) 6: Druid 4 - Improved Bull Rush (resist nature's lure) 7: Hospitaler 1 - Shock Trooper (lay on hands) 8: Druid 5 (wildshape 1/day) 9: Druid 6 - Lion's Pounce (wildshape 2/day) 10: Druid 7 (wildshape 3/day) 11: Druid 8 (wildshape Large) 12: Druid 9 - Craft Wondrous Item / Practised Spellcaster (venom immunity) 13: Druid 10 (wildshape 4/day) 14: Druid 11 (wildshape Tiny) 15: Druid 12 - feat of choice (wildshape Plant) My aim with this build was to get the mounted combat feats in place as fast as possible. Shocktrooper is prioritized over Lion's Pounce because there's not much point being able to full attack on a charge before you have multiple attacks, and I rarely see Haste at APL 6. After L9 you could take a different direction, but pure druid only loses you one more point of BAB, and advances spellcasting + animal companion + wildshape, which is pretty nice. The last level could be Beastmaster (retraining an earlier feat to Skill Focus (Handle Animal) and then putting the earlier feat back in at 15), since it doesn't grant extra wildshapes or another tier of spells. There might be better ways to do the point buy. I want Int 12 on my character for backstory reasons (she NEEDS to be able to speak Olman at first level), but in general it's probably expendable. Starting Wis 15 would allow one bump to Wis and two to Str, so you're not reliant on a periapt for casting L6 spells. I'm not sure how important Dex is for a mounted PC, since they're likely to have plenty of ranks in Ride. I realize there's no provision in the build for cases where the dire bat has to be left behind. At high levels, Phantom Stag provides a replacement mount. At low levels, I'd just bring a different PC (my version of this character is a storm-worshipper whose spirited flying lance charge is basically channelling the power of a lightning strike, and she does NOT like being away from the open sky). If she ends up dismounted unexpectedly, well, she's still a pouncing shocktrooper with secondary druid spellcasting and wildshape at high levels. === Earth-and-darkness-themed gnome wizard Race: Gnome Alignment: Any (Arcane Disciple may impose alignment requirements if used) Str 6 Dex 8 Con 16 Int 18 Wis 14 Cha 8 Specialization: I'd go either Illusionist with banned Evocation and Necromancy / Enchantment, or Diviner with banned Evocation 1: Wizard 1 - Spell Focus (Illusion), Scribe Scroll (summon familiar) 2: Wizard 2 3: Wizard 3 - Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) / Craft Wondrous Item / Arcane Disciple / Greater Spell Focus (Illusion) 4: Wizard 4 5: Wizard 5 - Heighten Spell 6: Wizard 6 - Earth Sense 7: Wizard 7 8: Shadowcraft Mage 1 (cloak of shadow) 9: Shadowcraft Mage 2 - Earth Spell (silent illusion) 10: Shadowcraft Mage 3 (shadow illusion) 11: Shadowcraft Mage 4 (extended illusion) 12: Shadowcraft Mage 5 - Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) if not already taken, else Chain Spell or see L3 feat options (powerful shadow magic) 13: Fatespinner 1 (spin fate) 14: Fatespinner 2 (fickle finger of fate) 15: Fatespinner 3 (spin destiny) - see L12 feat options The last three levels could also be Earth Dreamer (for earth flavor), Unseen Seer (for skills and advanced learning), or just go back to wizard (for a bonus feat at 15th). Any other PrC that gives full spellcasting and doesn't cost a feat should be fine as well. Fatespinner is nice if you took Chain Spell and are casting chained heightened phantasmal assailants / phantasmal killer. Ruathar would be a decent replacement at L6-7 if you get access; most wizardly PrCs available at that level require feats and are thus not an option. Arcane Disciple is a feat possibility because of the high Wisdom required for Earth Sense / Earth Spell, but the build is sufficiently feat-starved that other options are probably better. For those unfamiliar with the earth spell + metamagic school focus + heighten spell + shadow illusion synergy, this is how it works (if the GM likes you): (1) Say the PC has level-X spell slots. Use Metamagic School Focus (Illusion) to prepare a Silent Image heightened to level=X+1 in a level-X slot. (2) Cast the Silent Image spell while standing on stone or unworked earth. Earth Spell increases the effective level of the spell by 1, and gives a bonus to caster level equal to the number of levels you heightened it, i.e. X. Thus you now have a Heightened Silent Image which is treated as a level=X+2 spell, with a +X caster level bonus. (3) Convert this figment spell to a shadow spell using the Shadow Illusion ability: this allows you to emulate any conjuration (creation), conjuration (summoning) or evocation spell on the sorc/wiz list of level=X+1 or lower, with reality equal to 10% x (X+2), or 10% x (X+4) for a PC with five levels of shadowcraft mage (due to the powerful shadow magic class feature). The save DC against such spells is 14+X+spellcasting stat (spell level = X+2, +1 for the gnome illusion bonus, +1 for spell focus illusion). I think this is all RAW, but it's also incredibly cheesy (FEAR the free CL17 Forcecage cast by a L11 wizard, with 80% reality and a DC ~27 Will save to disbelieve), and I would expect quite a number of GMs to disallow parts of the trick on their tables (and I wouldn't argue with them: the rules are not entirely unambiguous that this works, and there are a couple of points where it can break down). Even without the reduced-cost-heighten craziness, though, it's still a strong full-caster build with a lot of versatility. === Sneak-attacker with a splash of arcane Race: Human (required to avoid multiclass penalty) Alignment: Any Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1: Rogue 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defence (sneak +1d6, trapfinding) 2: Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse 3: Diviner 1 - Combat Expertise, Scribe Scroll (L1 spells, summon familiar) 4: Swashbuckler 2 (grace +1) 5: Swashbuckler 3 (insightful strike) 6: Unseen Seer 1 - Daring Outlaw (+3d6 sneak) 7: Unseen Seer 2 - Silent Spell (L2 spells, advanced learning: gravestrike) 8: Swashbuckler 4 (+4d6 sneak, dodge bonus +1) 9: Unseen Seer 3 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (divination spell power +1) 10: Unseen Seer 4 (+5d6 sneak, L3 spells) 11: Swashbuckler 5 12: Swashbuckler 6 - Staggering Strike (+6d6 sneak) 13: Swashbuckler 7 (acrobatic charge) 14: Swashbuckler 8 (+7d6 sneak, improved flanking) Retrain Combat Expertise to Improved Initiative 15: Nightsong Enforcer 1 - Combat Expertise or other feat of choice (+8d6 sneak) At the end you have BAB +12, +8d6 sneak attack + Int to damage, five attacks (six with Haste), and spellcasting as a L5 wizard (i.e. spectral weapon, false life, golemstrike, gravestrike, critical strike, instant locksmith, etc). My version of this build will probably fight with daggers and seek a special mission for Daggerspell Stance: that might help the problem of low attack bonus at low-mid levels. The low-level feats (deadly defence and combat expertise in this version) have some room to shift, but I think the L6-12 feats are solid. I haven't checked the skills, but I suspect you can keep search + disable device maxed pretty easily via retraining: every level except 5 has at least 7 skill points / level.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 08:27 PM	Druid 12/Fighter 2/Hospitaler 1 There might be better ways to do the point buy. I want Int 12 on my character for backstory reasons (she NEEDS to be able to speak Olman at first level) Why not cross-class a language at 1st level with 2 skill points? Gnome Shadowcrafter seems about right. Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1: Rogue 1 - Two-Weapon Fighting, Deadly Defence (sneak +1d6, trapfinding) 2: Swashbuckler 1 - Weapon Finesse 3: Swashbuckler 2 - Combat Expertise (grace +1) 4: Swashbuckler 3 (insightful strike) 5: Diviner 1 - Scribe Scroll (L1 spells, summon familiar) 6: Unseen Seer 1 - Daring Outlaw (+3d6 sneak) 7: Unseen Seer 2 - Silent Spell (L2 spells, advanced learning: gravestrike) 8: Swashbuckler 4 (+4d6 sneak, dodge bonus +1) 9: Unseen Seer 3 - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting (divination spell power +1) 10: Unseen Seer 4 (+5d6 sneak, L3 spells) 11: Swashbuckler 5 12: Swashbuckler 6 - Staggering Strike (+6d6 sneak) 13: Swashbuckler 7 (acrobatic charge) 14: Swashbuckler 8 (+7d6 sneak, improved flanking) Retrain Combat Expertise to Improved Initiative 15: Nightsong Enforcer 1 - Combat Expertise or other feat of choice (+8d6 sneak) My version of this build will probably fight with daggers and seek a special mission for Daggerspell Stance: that might help the problem of low attack bonus at low-mid levels. Why not consider CWI and Practiced Spellcaster? Also, I think you have some serious skill issues unless you're doing a lot of retraining from 2-5 - Spot/Search/Hide aren't class skills for you except for 1st and it isn't until 5th that Spellcraft is a class skill for you. I'd put Diviner at 3rd level - that reduces cross-classing necessary(you'd no longer have to cross-class Spellcraft) I'd also point out that Master's Touch is a pretty good option for you - Lynxpaw is a double weapon that's finessable(Races of the Wild) You finally can't retrain Combat Expertise right before 15 - you need to do that prior to that according to Britt. ---------- Is there some reason that you seem to be pushing back CWI until very end? It is a lot more useful early on in builds now - you spend 2K to make a Headband as an example.
dkay807 03-15-07, 09:52 PM	I think this is all RAW, but it's also incredibly cheesy (FEAR the free CL17 Forcecage cast by a L11 wizard, with 80% reality and a DC ~27 Will save to disbelieve), and I would expect quite a number of GMs to disallow parts of the trick on their tables (and I wouldn't argue with them: the rules are not entirely unambiguous that this works, and there are a couple of points where it can break down). Even without the reduced-cost-heighten craziness, though, it's still a strong full-caster build with a lot of versatility. That's pretty abusive! It's tricky... you can't really argue with it because it is RAW, but the fact of the matter is that it will **** off about 40% of GMs and I would expect it to be shot down "just because" pretty often. Additionally, once you try something like that, you're pegged as an abusive powergamer for the remainder of the game and the GM's attitude will drop from indifferent or friendly down to unfriendly or even hostile...
copper_wyrmling 03-16-07, 05:09 PM	Why not cross-class a language at 1st level with 2 skill points? I've considered it (and am still considering it... the PC has played one game, but that was before the 597 LGCS, and her first level was druid, so I can change stuff if I want). Druids have such a nice skill list, though: Handle Animal and Ride are compulsory, Concentration is pretty important (since you need to be able to cast while mounted), and Spot and Listen are just really nice. And there are other good skills on their list as well... five skill points / level never seems like enough ;) How would you do the point-buy, assuming Int can be lowered to 10? I haven't played a mounted character before and I'm not sure how much Dex can be dumped. Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8? Or would Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 8 be better? Why not consider CWI and Practiced Spellcaster? Also, I think you have some serious skill issues unless you're doing a lot of retraining from 2-5 - Spot/Search/Hide aren't class skills for you except for 1st and it isn't until 5th that Spellcraft is a class skill for you. I'd put Diviner at 3rd level - that reduces cross-classing necessary(you'd no longer have to cross-class Spellcraft) Thanks. Like I said, I haven't looked at the skills very carefully yet. I didn't have any particular reason for putting levels 2-5 in that order (I wrote them in that order so I could compare BAB to a rogue of equal level, originally). You're right, diviner earlier makes a lot more sense, since I need my L5 skill points for fixing up the cross-class skills. I think it's better for other reasons as well: insightful strike at L4 or L5 doesn't make much difference, and the swash levels don't contribute to sneak attack until L6 and Daring Outlaw, but L1 spells are rather more useful at L3 than they are at L5. The BAB loss is frustrating, but it has to happen at some point. I'll make that change in my original post. Hmmm... working out the skills for the early levels in detail... First attempt: L1: Spot - 4, Listen - 4, Search - 4, Hide - 4, Sense Motive - 4, Disable Device - 4, Tumble - 4, Move Silently - 4, Open Lock - 4, Knowledge (Local) (metaregion) - 4, Knowledge (Local) (core) - 4 L2: as above but Tumble - 5, Search - 5, Disable Device - 5, Spot - 5 L3: as above but add Spellcraft - 5 L4: as above but Tumble - 6, Search - 7, Spot - 6 Retrain least favorite Knowledge (Local) into Hide at start of L5 L5: as above but Hide - 8, Search - 8, Spot - 8, Tumble - 7 Retrain other Knowledge (Local), or Move Silently, into Disable Device L6: as above but Disable Device - 9, Search - 9, Spot - 9, Listen - 9, do whatever with the last two skill points Thoughts? The problem with CWI and Practised Spellcaster is the feat slots - there's not much room to move in the L6-12 feats. Combat Expertise and Deadly Defence aren't essential, but I can't take either PS or CWI at L1, so getting both of them would push back Daring Outlaw and ITWF, which I'd prefer to avoid. I don't think PS is that important for the build: most of the spells I'd be using are almost entirely independent of caster level (swift-action 1-round-duration self-buffs). However, CWI would be very nice: low-level pearls of power would be extremely handy, as would the stat-buffers. But I'd need PS to meet the CL requirement for CWI at low levels... grumble. The only way to get those two feats at 1st and 3rd would be to take the wizard level first, which butchers the skills. I guess I could take Practised Spellcaster at 3rd, CWI at 9th and grab a fighter or eldritch knight level for a bonus feat for ITWF. I like having 8d6 sneak attack and improved flanking at 15th, though :( I'd also point out that Master's Touch is a pretty good option for you - Lynxpaw is a double weapon that's finessable(Races of the Wild) Ooh, hadn't thought of that one. Thanks! Definitely an option to keep in mind. If I can get access to Daggerspell Stance, I think fighting with daggers may still be a better option than the lynxpaw: the extra crit range / multiplier doesn't do much for a character who's getting most of their damage from sneak attack. The lynxpaw is cool though and would be good in the absence of special access. You finally can't retrain Combat Expertise right before 15 - you need to do that prior to that according to Britt. Did he actually say that somewhere? Can you post the link? (I agree with this ruling, but I know others were arguing against it.) I would probably retrain it at 14th and cope without CE for a level: that would also give me a chance to see how much of a difference CE made before choosing my L15 feat. Is there some reason that you seem to be pushing back CWI until very end? It is a lot more useful early on in builds now - you spend 2K to make a Headband as an example. *nods* I guess it's because I tend to think of crafting feats as good but not central to builds - they don't generally let you do something you couldn't do before, they just make it a lot cheaper (at the cost of play opportunities). Thus, I'll put them in when I've got the other key feats that I want, but I tend to figure out the feats I need to make the build work first, and then slot crafting feats in wherever I have a space. I do think CWI is the best choice of L3 feat in the shadowcraft mage build, it just means living without the Metamagic School Focus cheese for L10-11, which is really not a big sacrifice given what the build can already do. In the first build, I was leaving it late because the entire point of the build was to get the "full attack on a x3 shocktrooper charge" in place as fast as possible, and that simply didn't leave many spare feats: I guess you could take Improved Bull Rush at L3 and CWI at L6 instead of Natural Bond at 3rd, but that delays the dire bat mount. You could also take CWI early and delay the spirited charging shocktrooper pounce of doom by three levels, especially if you were expecting the character to get a lot of play in the mid-high levels (this is about my sixth character: for my version of this build, I want all the important tricks to come into play as early as I can get them). I recognize that CWI would be really nice for the sneak-attacker build. Do you have a suggestion on how best to fit it in?
copper_wyrmling 03-16-07, 05:24 PM	That's pretty abusive! It's tricky... you can't really argue with it because it is RAW, but the fact of the matter is that it will **** off about 40% of GMs and I would expect it to be shot down "just because" pretty often. Additionally, once you try something like that, you're pegged as an abusive powergamer for the remainder of the game and the GM's attitude will drop from indifferent or friendly down to unfriendly or even hostile... Yah. I probably wouldn't pull out the true cheese (*cough* 100% real shadow Forcecage with no material component at L12 *cough*) unless I felt that multiple PCs were about to die. It's nice to have crazy powerful options, but you don't need to use them to break every encounter, that just gets boring and is unfair to the other players. In some situations, though, everyone on the table (including the GM who's just realized that they're looking at the prospect of their first TPK) will be happy to have a trump card. Ah, and MwaO, I just realized the other reason why I had swashbuckler at L2 and L3 in the daring outlaw build: it was so that I could use combat expertise for 2 to activate deadly defence at third level. If those feats change, of course, this issue becomes moot. If they don't change, would you put diviner at L3 or L4?
Mommy was an Orc 03-16-07, 05:37 PM	How would you do the point-buy, assuming Int can be lowered to 10? I haven't played a mounted character before and I'm not sure how much Dex can be dumped. Str 16 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8? Or would Str 16 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 15 Cha 8 be better? Dex 10 should be okay. You're not expecting anyone to exactly miss you after you Shock Trooper them if they live. Hmmm... working out the skills for the early levels in detail... First attempt: L1: Spot - 4, Listen - 4, Search - 4, Hide - 4, Sense Motive - 4, Disable Device - 4, Tumble - 4, Move Silently - 4, Open Lock - 4, Knowledge (Local) (metaregion) - 4, Knowledge (Local) (core) - 4 L2: as above but Tumble - 5, Search - 5, Disable Device - 5, Spot - 5 L3: as above but add Spellcraft - 5 L4: as above but Tumble - 6, Search - 7, Spot - 6 Retrain least favorite Knowledge (Local) into Hide at start of L5 L5: as above but Hide - 8, Search - 8, Spot - 8, Tumble - 7 Retrain other Knowledge (Local), or Move Silently, into Disable Device L6: as above but Disable Device - 9, Search - 9, Spot - 9, Listen - 9, do whatever with the last two skill points Why are you retraining at 6th? That's your Unseen Seer level. The way I'd do it is start with Search 2, Spot 3, Hide 4, then retrain those at 3rd, 4th, and 5th respectively. That way you don't have to cc the wizard level at all. The problem with CWI and Practised Spellcaster is the feat slots - there's not much room to move in the L6-12 feats. Combat Expertise and Deadly Defence aren't essential, but I can't take either PS or CWI at L1, so getting both of them would push back Daring Outlaw and ITWF, which I'd prefer to avoid. Until 8th level, you're really only truly getting an extra d6 of sneak from Daring Outlaw. I'd take it at 9th when you really benefit from it. Saving 2K per stat item means you'll save a lot of money and that helps with your MAD. You might not have +8d6 Sneak at 15th, but you should also pick up Arcane Strike - that's another reason I mentioned the Lynxpaw - double finessable weapon that really can do a number with Arcane Strike. I'd probably consider a level of Fighter anyway, because that way you can take a level of Spellsword for ASF. So something like this for feats: 1: Deadly Defense, TWF 2: Weapon Finesse 3: Practiced Spellcaster 6: CWI 9: Daring Outlaw 9: Fighter 1: ITWF 12: Staggering Strike 15: Arcane Strike Did he actually say that somewhere? Can you post the link? (I agree with this ruling, but I know others were arguing against it.) I would probably retrain it at 14th and cope without CE for a level: that would also give me a chance to see how much of a difference CE made before choosing my L15 feat. Somewhere in that massive question and answer thing - I asked him about it.
copper_wyrmling 03-16-07, 06:32 PM	Why are you retraining at 6th? That's your Unseen Seer level. The way I'd do it is start with Search 2, Spot 3, Hide 4, then retrain those at 3rd, 4th, and 5th respectively. That way you don't have to cc the wizard level at all. Unseen Seer doesn't have Disable Device as a class skill, and it's a nice one to keep up. But yeah, that last line is not relevant to qualifying for Unseen Seer, I was just checking that I had an opportunity to get DD back up to maximum quickly. I wasn't cc'ing in the wizard level, those 5 ranks went into Spellcraft (the fifth could've gone somewhere else, but wizzies need spellcraft for spellbooks, right?) Checking your approach: L1: Search 2, Spot 3, Hide 4, Disable Device 4, Open Lock 4, Tumble 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Sense Motive 4, Knowledge (Local) (metaregion) 4, Knowledge (Local) (core) 4, Balance 3 L2: Tumble 5, Jump 5, Balance 4, others as previous L3: retrain Balance into Search 6, buy Spellcraft 5 L4: retrain Knowledge (Local) (core) into Spot 7, buy Search 7 (2 points), Tumble 6 (1 point), Balance 4 (4 points) L5: retrain Balance into Hide 8, buy Spot 8 (2 points), buy Search 8 (2 points), Tumble 8 (2 points), Sense Motive 5 (1 point) So at L5 this route gets: Hide 8, Spot 8, Search 8, Tumble 8, Sense Motive 5, Spellcraft 5, Jump 5, Knowledge (Local) (metaregion) 4, Move Silently 4, Listen 4, Open Lock 4, Disable Device 4 Whereas my previous route had: Hide 8, Spot 8, Search 8, Tumble 7, Sense Motive 4, Spellcraft 5, Knowledge (Local) (metaregion) 4, Move Silently 4, Listen 4, Open Lock 4, Disable Device 5 So you pay an extra 700gp and 8 TUs to get six skill ranks. That's probably worthwhile, and it might be tweakable further. Until 8th level, you're really only truly getting an extra d6 of sneak from Daring Outlaw. I'd take it at 9th when you really benefit from it. Hmmm. You are correct. Saving 2K per stat item means you'll save a lot of money and that helps with your MAD. You might not have +8d6 Sneak at 15th, but you should also pick up Arcane Strike - that's another reason I mentioned the Lynxpaw - double finessable weapon that really can do a number with Arcane Strike. I'd probably consider a level of Fighter anyway, because that way you can take a level of Spellsword for ASF. *twitches* No skills and no sneak attack. /me dislikes (since I'm trying to maintain something of a combat sneak-attacking rogue feel with a bit of arcane spellcasting on the side). But I'll look at it. I'll also go through my planned spells again and check which ones have S components: I was planning to use almost entirely V-only spells in combat to avoid the ASF issue. I guess one fighter level wouldn't be so bad: I was iffy about taking the nightsong enforcer level anyway (since it's effectively trading a feat for 1d6 sneak attack). Arcane Strike would be lovely, yes. I'm a little concerned about using it with a double weapon - I played a double-weapon-wielder through 15 levels, and I know just how unclear the rules are. Some GMs will disallow arcane striking through both ends of a double weapon, viewing the heads to be separate weapons (the feat requires you to channel arcane energy into a "single melee weapon"). If it works though, that would be really cool. So something like this for feats: 1: Deadly Defense, TWF 2: Weapon Finesse 3: Practiced Spellcaster 6: CWI 9: Daring Outlaw 9: Fighter 1: ITWF 12: Staggering Strike 15: Arcane Strike I guess then class levels would go like: 1: Rogue 2: Swashbuckler 3: Diviner 4: Swashbuckler 5: Swashbuckler 6: Unseen Seer (+2d6 sneak) 7: Unseen Seer (gravestrike, L2 spells) 8: Swashbuckler 9: Fighter (+4d6 sneak, four attacks) 10: Unseen Seer 11: Unseen Seer (+5d6 sneak, L3 spells) 12: Swashbuckler 13: Swashbuckler (+6d6 sneak) 14: Swashbuckler (five attacks) 15: Swashbuckler (+7d6 sneak) Yeah... that might work actually. Getting arcane strike and a lot of L1 pearls for critical strike should compensate for the loss of the last sneak dice. Do you think Deadly Defence is worthwhile without Expertise, though? Hmmm... if I left CWI until 9th instead of 6th, I wouldn't need Practised Spellcaster, I'd qualify based on the unseen seer levels. That would allow me to put Expertise back in. Thanks for the comments :)
jstorrie 03-16-07, 06:53 PM	I think this is looking a lot better. Have you considered fitting in Still Spell somewhere? Critical Strike is a decent spell, but not a great one. Bladeweave, on the other hand, is an absolutely fantastic spell for a character like this. So much so that I might consider Illusionist over Diviner.
copper_wyrmling 03-16-07, 09:44 PM	I think this is looking a lot better. Have you considered fitting in Still Spell somewhere? Critical Strike is a decent spell, but not a great one. Bladeweave, on the other hand, is an absolutely fantastic spell for a character like this. So much so that I might consider Illusionist over Diviner. I haven't considered Still Spell, because the list of spells I'd be planning to memorize for regular in-combat casting goes something like: L1: Golem Strike (V) Grave Strike (V, DF) Critical Strike (V) Blades of Fire (V) Master's Touch (V, F) (if using lynxpaw) L2: Daggerspell Stance (V, F) (if using daggers) Bladeweave? (V) Swift Fly (V) L3: Spectral Weapon (V, S) (EDIT: I'm not including long-lasting buffs like False Life in this list. The character can take her armor off to cast those. These are the spells I imagine her casting in combat, that's all. Blink is a possibility at third level, for free sneak attacks, although it does eat a standard action - and I wouldn't be able to Still it even with the feat.) I might use some other spells (well, I'll need to, as a specialist diviner ;) ) - but these were the ones that jumped out at me (spectral weapon not so much as the others, but if you're having extreme trouble hitting, being able to switch to touch attacks with one hand seems pretty nice, even if they'll probably only do half damage - sadly I can't see how to make this spell work with the lynxpaw). The character is NOT any approximation of a primary spellcaster, it just uses minor magic to fix some of the weaknesses of sneak attack as a primary damage-dealing strategy, and to give minor boosts in combat. Most of the spells I'd be memorizing are swift-action and verbal-only (hence the lack of investment in Concentration), and for the few that aren't, accepting a 10% arcane spell failure chance is not the huge problem that it is for a primary caster. Whirling Blade would be cool as a first-round action while you move in, if you win initiative and the flat-footed enemies are neatly lined up for you. I don't think Stilled Whirling Blade is worth a feat though. (More suggestions for useful spells would be welcome: I haven't counted utility spells like Instant Locksmith and Spontaneous Search in the list above.) I don't actually see the attraction of Bladeweave for this build. It doesn't have the Int emphasis of a primary caster, so the save DC would be 14-17 depending on headband strength. Spending a L2 slot to be able to force one target to make an easy Will save once / round doesn't seem like a very good use of resources (especially since after the first round that target will probably be the full-attack target and should be taking oodles of sneak attack damage), and it'll fizzle on APL-appropriate spell resistance. I'm probably missing something. Also, what do you think of swapping the order of Arcane Strike and Staggering Strike? I guess I can see how it works out in play, if it gets that far: Arcane Strike if I'm not using all my slots and having trouble hitting, Staggering Strike if the return full attacks are really hurting...
clik_ml 03-17-07, 12:59 AM	I am a big fan of druid cavalry. I play a halfling 1 Ftr/X Druid (used to be 2 Ftr/X druid before rebuild) and am killing lots of meaty things. I like having near full druid levels so that I don't have to be spirited charging all the time (it gets boring, not just for me but for others if I solo-kill all the big stuff in 1-2 rounds). Being a halfling and not having the 2 extra fighter/hopsitaler class levels for bonus feats does put me 3 feats down in comparison, which meant I had to wait til level 3 to do spirited charges, and even longer for power attack. On the upside only being down 1 level on druid progression saves 2 feats from Natural Bond and Practiced Spellcaster (that was why I rebuilt down to 1 fighter level), which means really taking those 2nd and 3rd non-druid class levels aren't getting you more feats, just getting certain ones earlier at the expense of all things druid. I'm hoping for access to the Lion's Pounce spell (level 3 swift druid spell in Spell Compendium, I think, my books are 300 miles away right now, guarded by two dire house cats) since I want to spare my precious feats. My next level is 9, and I'm being sorely tempted to dip hospitaler to add shock trooper to my repertoire... but I'm worried about being too good if I take that. I'm playing with a buffer-wizard who generously casts heroics, so I'm getting a free trial run of Shock Trooper for the time being. That should be enough to convince me one way or the other soon enough. The Shadowcraft gnome is pretty straightfoward. It's hard to go wrong with those. Heh, I'd probably have one of these in progress as well, except that I'm playing an illusionist in a homebrew game and didn't want overlap. For the Unseen Seer, I have a twfing swash/rogue somewhat similar to this in the works (I was going to have to move regions to become a favored soul/shadowbane stalker, but the unseen seer saved me from that shenanigan!). For mine, I am strongly considering taking 8 levels of Unseen Seer since the BAB and sneak attack are competitive, and at 5th U.S. level I can snag Vine Strike from the druid list so that I can sneak attack golems, undead, *and* plants. I see lots of Unseen Seers who use wizard as their chasis here, and there are certainly many, many good reasons to do so. That said, I think there is a lot of strength behind the spontaneity of a sorcerer-based Unseen Seer simply so that you don't have to know what kind of critters to prepare for each day, or just to use critical strike or Arcane Strike if nothing tricky comes up. In some regions that totally isn't an issue, but my rogue sometimes winds up fighting plants or undead when I don't expect it. Being able to choose spontaneously is an asset that is well worth considering. The choice was made easier for me since once upon a time my rogue was going to be a paladin/rogue, so I'm already having the 14 charisma. I've been torn as to what finessable weapons to use for TWFing. I'm only at APL 4 using 2 wimpy finessable weapons currently. The lynx paw suggestion I hadn't considered, and it sounds tempting. Beforehand I was contemplating spiked chain + armor spikes, soley because it's the only finessable reach weapon that I know of. Anywho, hopefully some of my notions are of use to you. - Erik
evilaustintom 03-19-07, 01:08 PM	One note that you may want to keep in mind on the human druid mounted build. Dire Bats can only carry something under 200 lbs while flying. It's not a huge issue, but you could easily go over that if you're a big human, or have a lot of equipment/weapons. Tom Thowe
Lupo 03-19-07, 05:39 PM	One note that you may want to keep in mind on the human druid mounted build. Dire Bats can only carry something under 200 lbs while flying. It's not a huge issue, but you could easily go over that if you're a big human, or have a lot of equipment/weapons. Tom Thowe taking the numbers of an giant eagle, the light load of a "standard" dire bat would be 86 lb (st 17) x 3 (large quadruped) = 258 lb. not really much but can bear even a fat dwarf 226 lb - more or less naked ;), only a real stout half-orc will exceed the capacity with 438 lb. with the first animal companion stat bump the load goes up to 300 lb. as druids are not into the heavy metal armor it should be no real problem, with the hevard's handy haversack access opened, even carried equipment is no longer a problem :). ciao martin m.
evilaustintom 03-20-07, 12:02 PM	taking the numbers of an giant eagle, the light load of a "standard" dire bat would be 86 lb (st 17) x 3 (large quadruped) = 258 lb. not really much but can bear even a fat dwarf 226 lb - more or less naked ;), only a real stout half-orc will exceed the capacity with 438 lb. with the first animal companion stat bump the load goes up to 300 lb. as druids are not into the heavy metal armor it should be no real problem, with the hevard's handy haversack access opened, even carried equipment is no longer a problem :). ciao martin m. Dire eagles and dire bats are not quadrupeds (4 legs), so you only use the x2 multiplier (used for large creatures). That makes it a lot tougher to carry heavy PCs. Tom Thowe
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 12:09 PM	Dire eagles and dire bats are not quadrupeds (4 legs), so you only use the x2 multiplier (used for large creatures). That makes it a lot tougher to carry heavy PCs. Tom Thowe It's already been hashed out in anotehr thread, but almost all flying creatures are considered quadapeds because the rules define a quadraped as any creature with 4 or more limbs used for locomotion, even if they are not all used at the same time. Birds have 2 legs and 2 wings, and are therefore quadrupeds and get the increased carrying capacity.
evilaustintom 03-20-07, 12:33 PM	It's already been hashed out in anotehr thread, but almost all flying creatures are considered quadapeds because the rules define a quadraped as any creature with 4 or more limbs used for locomotion, even if they are not all used at the same time. Birds have 2 legs and 2 wings, and are therefore quadrupeds and get the increased carrying capacity. I've never heard of this rule. Where is it at? Page #/reference location would be useful to know for future games... ...particularly since I just played a few modules last weekend with a dire bat that could have been used more often with this rule. Tom Thowe
bitznarf 03-20-07, 01:12 PM	I recall somewhere in the DMG listing the carrying capacity for dire bats, and it was in line with it being a bipedal creature. Somewhere in the cohorts/special mounts section or something like that.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 01:25 PM	I've never heard of this rule. Where is it at? Page #/reference location would be useful to know for future games... ...particularly since I just played a few modules last weekend with a dire bat that could have been used more often with this rule. Tom Thowe Page 7 of the Monster Manual under strength. Strength: As noted on page 162 of the Player's handbook, quadrupeds can carry heavier loads than bipeds can. Any creature with four or more motive limbs can carry a load as a quadruped, even if it does not necessarily use all the limbs at once.
Nutation 03-20-07, 03:03 PM	Page 7 of the Monster Manual under strength. That's interesting, but I'm not going to give the higher carrying capacity to a human just because he takes the Brachiation feat. "Poorly modeled."
Lupo 03-20-07, 03:05 PM	I've never heard of this rule. Where is it at? Page #/reference location would be useful to know for future games... ...particularly since I just played a few modules last weekend with a dire bat that could have been used more often with this rule. Tom Thowe just look up the giant eagle or giant owl in the monster manual, their carrying capacity is given and clearly is calculated with the assumption of them being quadrupeds. and this would make even more sense for the dire bat, as the bat uses a skin membrane spanned between their fore and rear limbs. the bat even uses all four limbs when walking, ok, looks funny but works ;) ciao martin m.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-20-07, 03:16 PM	That's interesting, but I'm not going to give the higher carrying capacity to a human just because he takes the Brachiation feat. "Poorly modeled." Not only that, but no basis in RAW for it anyway. A human with brachiation still has no listed speed for a movement mode for which his hands are his primary means of movement. A Bird has a land speed using it's legs, and a fly speed using it's wings. A human with brachiation still has only a land speed using it's legs. If a human, or other typical biped were to aquire an additional movement mode that relied on something besides it's legs, at that point it would gain quadruped carrying capacity. For instance, a human druid with the Eagle's Wings wild feat would benefit from increased carrying capacity while it was in effect. A character with levels in Cloud Anchorite would also be considered a quadruped as long as they are unarmored and unencumbered so they retain their climb speed.
bitznarf 03-20-07, 03:18 PM	This brings up the question.. how many 'ped's does a snake have? <.< >.>