Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CrystalBlue 01-08-07, 02:46 PM	I'm bouncing around an idea I want to play for the new core story arc coming. There are bound to be traps and stuff in a ruined castle, so why not make a trap rogue with levels in wizard? ^.^ Siexren Malroth Grey Elf Male Str: 8 Dex: 16 Con: 12 Int: 18 Wis: 10 Cha: 10 1: Rogue - Point Blank Shot 2: Rogue 3: Wizard - Precise Shot 4: Wizard 5: Wizard Past this is where I need help. I'm going to go all out on skills here, taking Open Lock, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, ect. When I go wizard, I'm going to take every utility spell and start scribing multiple scrolls of each, keeping my spell slots open for combat. I'll most likely take ray and touch spells, hence the Precise shot. And hey, if I can catch someone without their dex...sneak attacking rays. ^.^ Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you could sneak attack with rays. I'm then torn on what to take. If I got access to it, I would definately take Daggerspell mage. That's if I get access, which I'm not counting on. What I was thinking of going was Arcane Trickster. But, because my DMG is at home (and I can't open the SRC at work, so please don't tell me that) I can't think of what to do after that. Plus, I want some input on what would be effective for a toolbox that moonlights as a sneak-attacking caster. :P
budleiser 01-08-07, 03:06 PM	You can sneak attack when things A) Do damage and B) require an attack roll. So touch spells, ranged touch spells, rays etc all work. Alchemical items also work well (Touch AC). The sneak damage is also the same base damage. (Orb of acid means all sneak damage is acid) Note: Ray of Enfeeblement is not damage its a penalty to str. So this can not sneak attack.
UMiskatonic 01-08-07, 04:00 PM	I'd recommend a rank in every knowledge skill, so that you have a chance of knowing everything. You need a 14 Con. Take a rat familiar as well, and you -might- actually make a fortitude save. Arcane Trickster is a slow road. Levels 5-10 are hard, because you are lamer than everyone else. There are a few ways to make it better. Classes Daggerspell mage is better, sorta. I think the feat pre-reqs are really high. Ruathar is a good choice, a bit better than more wizard levels. I might go rogue/wiz/wiz/wiz/rogue personally. I don't think you'll need evasion much at APL 2. Getting 2nd level spells faster is a bigger deal, in my opinion. Feats 1) Craft Wondrous allows you to make pearls of power (more spells, yay), and an array of devices that help your stats and your skills (Cloak of elvenkind, etc.) 2) Craft Arms and Armor allows for you to be a serviceable archer. You can also make cheaper magic armor, etc. 3) Rapid shot is a good archery feat, and if your spells are largely utility, you can always shoot more arrows. 4) You can do some real damage with split ray as well. 5) and, of course, practiced spellcaster. +4 levels on those ray spells is a LOAD of damage, and more duration, and more things to craft.
CrystalBlue 01-08-07, 04:36 PM	Well then, here's a question. Would it be better to level out my stats and go human instead? My skill points would level out, so that's not bad. I'd get an extra feat too. But I liked the high Int bonus to all of my skills and stuff. I guess I just don't see justifying changing all of my stats like that for one more HP every level and a +1 to Fort. And I don't know what Ruathar is, so I can't comment on that.
UMiskatonic 01-08-07, 04:54 PM	Well, the +1 skill for human gives you the exact number of skill points that a +2 INT gets you for being an elf. But that's not the point. The point is that you need MORE Con. I certainly would not take it from Int, unless I had no other choice. a 15 Dex would get you two points, as would an 8 Cha. I don't recommend an 8 Wis, you'll need the will save and the bonus to spot and listen. A 17 Int and 9 Cha would get you four points, which is a 10 Str and 14 Con. I personally would take this option, and bump INT at 4th level.
UMiskatonic 01-08-07, 04:58 PM	Buy your ideal starting equipment, and then see how far over your encumberance limit you are with an 8 STR. Remember, you can't tumble or evade once you go past light load. Then remind yourself that you'll also take this str penalty to every arrow, every thrown alchemical item. Not fun. I'm not trying to smash your idea, I just want you to have an awareness of how difficult it really is. Ruathar is a prestige class from Races of the Wild, and I -think- that it's currently core.
CrystalBlue 01-08-07, 05:19 PM	Well, those stats up there are racially adjusted already, so taking the Dex from 16 to 15 is only one point. And putting the Con from 12 to 14 is actually putting it from 14 to 16, so that's a much bigger investment just for a little more HP and Fort. Again, I don't know if pulling 4 points from somewhere will be that effective. If I just go human, everything here will level out, but I won't get my 18 Int and 16 Dex, which I REALLY like. Here's what I have to work with after racial modifiers... Race: Str/Dex/Con/Int/Wis/Cha Human: 10/14/14/16/10/10 Grey Elf: 8/16/12/18/10/10 Fixed Grey Elf: 10/14/14/17/10/8
clannagh 01-08-07, 05:57 PM	The STR 10 is a bit better at least you can walk ... and I am pretty sure with STR 8 you take a negative to damage with all bows Ruathan is LIMITED .. but among other things gives full BAB and full spell llevel progression and can be taken after one wizard level if it occurs late in the build. I have a similiar character who went 10/17/12/16/10/10 intending to boost dex at level 4 which is nicely rounded and takes good advantage of teh grey elf racials .... for your build 10/16/12/17/10/10 might work.
CrystalBlue 01-09-07, 08:40 AM	Well, the main reason I go greyelf is because of the boost to int (obviously). I guess, would it be a good idea to go Wizard or maybe take another class? The reason I go wizard is because I can add my Int to my spells (DC, known) and also benefit from a load of skills and bonuses. I just invision this character being a very sneaky type that combines the best parts of being a rogue with a little arcane to get around the problems he can't normally get around. Basically, this is going to be a pure problem solver. I don't plan on having him do much in combat aside from ranged. In fact, if I can find a way to boost my skills and useful arcane even more, I'd ditch the two feats and take something else. Maybe Practiced Spellcaster if I plan on deviating away from wizard far enough. Hmmm...
JamesMaissen 01-09-07, 02:38 PM	Well then, here's a question. Would it be better to level out my stats and go human instead? My skill points would level out, so that's not bad. I'd get an extra feat too. But I liked the high Int bonus to all of my skills and stuff. I guess I just don't see justifying changing all of my stats like that for one more HP every level and a +1 to Fort. And I don't know what Ruathar is, so I can't comment on that. When making an Arcane Trickster (which this is closely resembling) I always recommend that one plan out the skills entirely. Part of delivering the abilities of a rogue lies within skills and this is one area that a Trickster lacks in ability to deliver. Understanding exactly how you wish these skills to go can also help you choose when you take the other rogue levels. Other factors such as feat qualifications and plans for how to go through the annoying levels of this path of course also affect such decisions. I would suggest that you build both versions and then have a complete view of their differences. CON and hps are easily underrated on the drawing board and are often regretted much later in the build. That's not to say that grey elf wizards can't work, but they have drawbacks. Low hps, poor fort saves and little carrying capacity are amongst them. As to Point Blank and Precise Shot, I think it would be something to consider how you are going to be using them. If you are going to use them via weapons (ie bows etc) then they are very good, but if it's with touch attack spells then for 2 feats it gets quite pricy. Especially if you are relying on spells and could boost their caster level by 2+ at the cost of just one of those feats. Know what you are getting yourself into and then the choices you make you won't regret. Make the decision with half the information and the later half will wind up biting you. -James
UMiskatonic 01-09-07, 05:42 PM	Ok, here's a more solid build. Rogue 15. Push as many points as you can into Use Magic Device. I think it gets you the character you want, and it's MUCH simpler. (If you want to get fancy, I'd personally prefer rogue 5/ranger 6/nightsong enforcer 4. Alternating levels will allow you to keep your skills up.) If you want to go arcane, and pick up 1, 3, or 5 levels of wizard, compare it to rogue 15 with UMD. Wizard levels give you: 1) a few spells free vs. buying scrolls 2) scribe scroll feat 3) familiar 4) lower BAB 5) lower HP 6) fewer skill points (loss of 6/level) 7) access to all knowledge skills Take a look at a few builds, and see what you like. If you decide to go with 5 wizard levels, you'll qualify for arcane trickster, which in my mind makes you more of a wizard/rogue. Not that that's a problem, but it's a different character.
CrystalBlue 01-10-07, 10:29 AM	Hmm...well, my real want is to be the Mr. Fixit of the group. The problem solver. Got a locked door? Picked. Magical trap infront of us? Dispelled. Steal the crown jewels? Hide, Move Silently, Group Invis. That's what I invision this character doing. Solving the non-combat problems of a group. Something else that came to mind was a Rogue/Bard, which always goes together nicely. I'll maximize my skill point usage that way, have enough access to arcane to be useful...hmm...I like that build. The question then is, which way do I go? I can still be a grey elf to get the bonus to Int. Problem is, Cha is no longer a dump stat, so I have to rework the stats to make it feasible. Does this look like a good way to go? I'd get a few more abilities, pump up the UMD to use scrolls and stuff that I don't normally cast from. I'll get a higher hit die and have a bit more combat ability. Does any PrC's go into this class nicely?
UMiskatonic 01-10-07, 01:13 PM	I was going to actually suggest rogue/bard, I'm glad to hear that you also think it's a good build. I'm running mine in World's Largest Dungeon, and he's very useful. If nothing else, rogue/bard leads into arcane trickster pretty well. You can get into sublime chord easily, although you'll be oddly low on 3rd level spells. For this build, I'd go with a 16 INT, and use those two points to give yourself a 12 CHA, at the minimum. I'm okay with the 12 CON for this build, as you are -clearly- a back-line character. I might move DEX down to 14, and CHA up to 14, especially if I was going to go with more bard levels than rogue levels. Invis Sphere, Sculpt Sound, and later Dim. Door are the help the group spells of choice, after Inspirational Boost and Haste, which are required, more or less. You'll be expected to talk to people, as the bard. Have some ranks in Speak Language and Diplomacy, and at least 5 in Bluff. (If you lie more often than not, switch Bluff and Diplomacy) Don't neglect the human languages. Suel and Baklunish come up more than Ignan or Gnoll, in my experience. Have a pile of scrolls as well, especially scrolls from OTHER spell lists. Bless weapon, entangle, pass without trace, are all 1st level spells, 25 gold each. Good luck, UM