Sorc or Gish for Ruins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Sorc or Gish for Ruins [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fghj171983
07-30-07, 01:43 PM Trying to figure out what I want to do for my ruins character still. I have been looking at some of the alternate class features and I really like spell shield for sorcerers from dungeonscape. Basically you give up your familar and gain the ability to prevent dmg to yourself once per round as an immediate action. The amount of damage prevented is five times the spell lvl you sacrifice at that time. I think this would be very cool for a gish tank. Though I am leaning toward using this in a more traditional sorcerer build with some heritage feats. Heres the sorcerer build I would apprechiate any feedback you guys have. I will do a spell break down by lvl later on if I get a chance.

Human- N

Str 8
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 16

1 Sorc - Infernal Heritage, Infernal Sorcerer Howl
2 Sorc
3 Sorc - Ability focus Infernal Sorcerer Howl
4 Sorc - Pump cha
5 Sorc
6 Sorc - Empower
7 Sorc
8 Fatespinner - Pump Cha
9 Fate - Rapid Metamagic?worth taking to get quicken?
10 Fate
11 Fate
12 Sorc - Pump cha, Quicken Spell
13 Sorc
14 Sorc
15 Sorc - feat???

Infernal Sorc Howl seems like it scales nicely and ability focus should keep the save DC competitive. One thing I was worried about is that since its a fort save will undead be immune to the howl? If so is this something to worry about or do its other strengths make this a small problem that can just be over come with other spells?
Pint_Glass_Crusader
07-30-07, 02:00 PM I have a level 3 sorcerer with "Infernal Sorcerer Heritage".

But I keep running into problems summoning "fiendish" creatures (to get the +2 level bonus). As the PHB states the spell takes on the descriptor of the creatures summoned, so I keep getting reported for casting "evil" spells, not to mention the problems with local laws on "trafficing with the powers of darkness". Ho Hum!

Infernal Sorcerer Howl is great (sonic being one of the less resisted energy types)... I waited until level 3 to get it, in hindsight I should have grabbed it at level 1!

I have to admit, I did a Fighter dip at level 2 for toughness, BAB and armour proficiency (with a Toad Familiar... that's 20 HP at level 2), and spread my stats across the board...

STR: 14
DEX: 14
CON: 14
INT: 10
WIS: 10
CHA: 14

As I know if I keep buffing CHA at level stat bonuses, I will beat the spell caster curve and always get bonus spells of each level I can cast. While also leaving open some PrC for later (like Spellsword or [even] Eldritch Knight).

I intend to wear some decent armour ("mithril chain shirt" of as big a plus as possible), as i can still use wands and "infernal howl" without any chance of spell failure. While still being [marginally] effective in melee if based or when buffed by my own spells.

That's just what I plan to do, if any of it is any use to you, feel free to pinch it! :)
fghj171983
07-31-07, 10:41 AM If I went a gish route it would probly be something like this.

Human - LG

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15

1 Paladin - P. Attack, Combat Reflexes
2 Paladin
3 Sorcerer - Practiced Spellcaster
4 Sorc - pump cha
5 Sorc
6 Sorc - CWI
7 Spellsword
8 Spellsword - pump cha, Close Quarters Combat
9 Spellsword - Arcane Strike
10 Eldritch Knight - Improved Init.
11 EK
12 EK - pump cha, Improved Toughness
13 EK
14 EK
15 EK - feat???

It ends up with BAB +13 and 11th lvl sorcerer casting at 15th caster lvl. Does losing 4 caster lvls put you too far behind the power curve? Also I realize that fighter 1/ wiz 6/ spellsword 1/ EK 7 is superior but this is a sorcerer gish.
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 11:49 AM Well, losing caster levels isn't so bad if you know what you are doing.

If you simply stand back, and toss magic missiles and acid orbs, you're doomed. The wizard who is four levels higher will do more damage, have more spells, and higher DCs.

If you are a melee/arcanist, you'll want to cast spells like greater magic weapon, magic circle vs. evil, and all the swift action spells you can find.

Combined with that spell shield option, you should do really well.
TWG_Prometheus
07-31-07, 05:49 PM If I went a gish route it would probly be something like this.

Human - LG

Str 14
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 8
Cha 15

1 Paladin - P. Attack, Combat Reflexes
2 Paladin
3 Sorcerer - Practiced Spellcaster
4 Sorc - pump cha
5 Sorc
6 Sorc - CWI
7 Spellsword
8 Spellsword - pump cha, Close Quarters Combat
9 Spellsword - Arcane Strike
10 Eldritch Knight - Improved Init.
11 EK
12 EK - pump cha, Improved Toughness
13 EK
14 EK
15 EK - feat???

It ends up with BAB +13 and 11th lvl sorcerer casting at 15th caster lvl. Does losing 4 caster lvls put you too far behind the power curve? Also I realize that fighter 1/ wiz 6/ spellsword 1/ EK 7 is superior but this is a sorcerer gish.

I'm running a similar Gish right now (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Ruathar 2 at the moment - whoo for Ruathar access) which isn't *quite* what you're talking about, but I think gives me a little insight into the process.

#1 - If you're going to dedicate yourself to a Spellsword 3 build instead of a Spellsword 1 build, go 15 Strength/14 Charisma and bump Strength, not Charisma. Promise.

#2 - I'm not sure why you're taking Combat Reflexes, but taking Improved Initiative at 1st level is better in any case. As a Gish, you'll always be tempted to sneak in a single round of self-buffing before you actually engage the bad guys, and the difference between (you buff/they go/you fight) is phenomenally different than (they go/you buff/they go/you fight) or (they go/you fight without buffs).

#3 - Power Attack is OK at early levels, but hitting is more important later on. One mistake I think a lot of people make in analyzing gish builds is thinking that Arcane Strike will let them use Power Attack more than they would otherwise. Assuming that the target has a halfway decent AC, this is incorrect. Generally, you shouldn't Power Attack any more or less when you're using Arcane Strike than when you aren't. You're burning valuable resources on Arcane Strike when you use it, and you want your iteratives to hit if at all possible.

#4 - Take a look at whether you really want Craft Wondrous Item. A Sorcerer's spell selection means that most often you'd be burning scrolls to do your Wondrous Item crafting, and that cuts in seriously to the money savings. I took Craft Magic Arms and Armor instead, and use that feat to help me keep up on +attack and +damage with Fighters that are now taking Melee Weapon Mastery.

Caveat: Gishes can differ dramatically depending on the spells selected, and Sorcerer Gishes probably more than most. My Gish runs:

1st - Shield, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Protection from Evil, Lesser Orb of Cold
2nd - Whirling Blade, Resist Energy, False Life
3rd - Haste, Heroism

I find that depending on the party, I often fall into a mid-fielder position and I don't spend 100% of my rounds in melee range. Support functions, including especially use of Ray of Enfeeblement and Haste, often take up some of my earlier rounds. Due to this, Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus (when I'm in melee range, I absolutely must hit) seem better to me than Power Attack. A different build could lead to different preferences.

PS - Pal/Sor Gish saving throws are phenomenal. (+14/+11/+14 unbuffed at level 9 for me)
-------------
A bit of Gish-math as it applies to my character:

In order to compete in melee, I figure that my Gish has to be only a little bit below a full Fighter build so that Arcane Strike and other abilities can boost me up to their level or over their level for brief periods. Thus, I compare my attack rolls to those of a Fighter-type that gets at least Melee Weapon Mastery, but not Greater Weapon Focus...which is fairly common...

My Gish projected out to level 12: (assumes Belt of Giant Strength & +4 weapon)
+9 BAB +5 Strength +4 enhancement +1 Weapon Focus = +19/+14 unbuffed attack schedule

Random Fighter-mutt projected out to level 12: (assumes Belt of Giant Strength and +1 weapon...probably with Holy or Flaming or somesuch - Because I have the Crafting feat for my sword, they will likely be at a +2 or +3 total enhancement while I'll be able to afford +4 at least)
+12 BAB +6 Strength +1 enhancement +1 Weapon Focus +2 Melee Weapon Mastery = +22/+17/+12 unbuffed attack schedule

Even with a +4 weapon over their +1 weapon, they have +3 to hit over me. In effect, I practically look non-proficient with my weapon. *IF* they don't rage or get Greater Magic Weapon or something similar, I only look non-proficient. Arcane Strike is enough to close the gap for short bursts, but is not sustainable. I *could* close the gap further by only casting Heroism on myself (if there's no Bard around) but I'd have to be an idiot to not give the Fighter Heroism to boost their flagging Will save, so they get it too. (This isn't actually a competition with my Fighters, but I use them as benchmarks to determine how well I'm doing.)

This is why I focus on hitting. Arcane Strike and possibly a +4 Vicious weapon rather than just a +4 weapon can help to close the damage gap, but I need to do everything I can to make sure I at least connect with the bad guy.

On the upside, fully self-buffed I look pretty decent:
+26/+26/+21 for (2d6+11+4d4) with Heroism, Haste and Arcane Strike IV.
TWG_Prometheus
07-31-07, 05:57 PM ...accidental double-post

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fghj171983 07-30-07, 01:43 PM	Trying to figure out what I want to do for my ruins character still. I have been looking at some of the alternate class features and I really like spell shield for sorcerers from dungeonscape. Basically you give up your familar and gain the ability to prevent dmg to yourself once per round as an immediate action. The amount of damage prevented is five times the spell lvl you sacrifice at that time. I think this would be very cool for a gish tank. Though I am leaning toward using this in a more traditional sorcerer build with some heritage feats. Heres the sorcerer build I would apprechiate any feedback you guys have. I will do a spell break down by lvl later on if I get a chance. Human- N Str 8 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 16 1 Sorc - Infernal Heritage, Infernal Sorcerer Howl 2 Sorc 3 Sorc - Ability focus Infernal Sorcerer Howl 4 Sorc - Pump cha 5 Sorc 6 Sorc - Empower 7 Sorc 8 Fatespinner - Pump Cha 9 Fate - Rapid Metamagic?worth taking to get quicken? 10 Fate 11 Fate 12 Sorc - Pump cha, Quicken Spell 13 Sorc 14 Sorc 15 Sorc - feat??? Infernal Sorc Howl seems like it scales nicely and ability focus should keep the save DC competitive. One thing I was worried about is that since its a fort save will undead be immune to the howl? If so is this something to worry about or do its other strengths make this a small problem that can just be over come with other spells?
Pint_Glass_Crusader 07-30-07, 02:00 PM	I have a level 3 sorcerer with "Infernal Sorcerer Heritage". But I keep running into problems summoning "fiendish" creatures (to get the +2 level bonus). As the PHB states the spell takes on the descriptor of the creatures summoned, so I keep getting reported for casting "evil" spells, not to mention the problems with local laws on "trafficing with the powers of darkness". Ho Hum! Infernal Sorcerer Howl is great (sonic being one of the less resisted energy types)... I waited until level 3 to get it, in hindsight I should have grabbed it at level 1! I have to admit, I did a Fighter dip at level 2 for toughness, BAB and armour proficiency (with a Toad Familiar... that's 20 HP at level 2), and spread my stats across the board... STR: 14 DEX: 14 CON: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 14 As I know if I keep buffing CHA at level stat bonuses, I will beat the spell caster curve and always get bonus spells of each level I can cast. While also leaving open some PrC for later (like Spellsword or [even] Eldritch Knight). I intend to wear some decent armour ("mithril chain shirt" of as big a plus as possible), as i can still use wands and "infernal howl" without any chance of spell failure. While still being [marginally] effective in melee if based or when buffed by my own spells. That's just what I plan to do, if any of it is any use to you, feel free to pinch it! :)
fghj171983 07-31-07, 10:41 AM	If I went a gish route it would probly be something like this. Human - LG Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 15 1 Paladin - P. Attack, Combat Reflexes 2 Paladin 3 Sorcerer - Practiced Spellcaster 4 Sorc - pump cha 5 Sorc 6 Sorc - CWI 7 Spellsword 8 Spellsword - pump cha, Close Quarters Combat 9 Spellsword - Arcane Strike 10 Eldritch Knight - Improved Init. 11 EK 12 EK - pump cha, Improved Toughness 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK - feat??? It ends up with BAB +13 and 11th lvl sorcerer casting at 15th caster lvl. Does losing 4 caster lvls put you too far behind the power curve? Also I realize that fighter 1/ wiz 6/ spellsword 1/ EK 7 is superior but this is a sorcerer gish.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 11:49 AM	Well, losing caster levels isn't so bad if you know what you are doing. If you simply stand back, and toss magic missiles and acid orbs, you're doomed. The wizard who is four levels higher will do more damage, have more spells, and higher DCs. If you are a melee/arcanist, you'll want to cast spells like greater magic weapon, magic circle vs. evil, and all the swift action spells you can find. Combined with that spell shield option, you should do really well.
TWG_Prometheus 07-31-07, 05:49 PM	If I went a gish route it would probly be something like this. Human - LG Str 14 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 15 1 Paladin - P. Attack, Combat Reflexes 2 Paladin 3 Sorcerer - Practiced Spellcaster 4 Sorc - pump cha 5 Sorc 6 Sorc - CWI 7 Spellsword 8 Spellsword - pump cha, Close Quarters Combat 9 Spellsword - Arcane Strike 10 Eldritch Knight - Improved Init. 11 EK 12 EK - pump cha, Improved Toughness 13 EK 14 EK 15 EK - feat??? It ends up with BAB +13 and 11th lvl sorcerer casting at 15th caster lvl. Does losing 4 caster lvls put you too far behind the power curve? Also I realize that fighter 1/ wiz 6/ spellsword 1/ EK 7 is superior but this is a sorcerer gish. I'm running a similar Gish right now (Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Ruathar 2 at the moment - whoo for Ruathar access) which isn't quite what you're talking about, but I think gives me a little insight into the process. #1 - If you're going to dedicate yourself to a Spellsword 3 build instead of a Spellsword 1 build, go 15 Strength/14 Charisma and bump Strength, not Charisma. Promise. #2 - I'm not sure why you're taking Combat Reflexes, but taking Improved Initiative at 1st level is better in any case. As a Gish, you'll always be tempted to sneak in a single round of self-buffing before you actually engage the bad guys, and the difference between (you buff/they go/you fight) is phenomenally different than (they go/you buff/they go/you fight) or (they go/you fight without buffs). #3 - Power Attack is OK at early levels, but hitting is more important later on. One mistake I think a lot of people make in analyzing gish builds is thinking that Arcane Strike will let them use Power Attack more than they would otherwise. Assuming that the target has a halfway decent AC, this is incorrect. Generally, you shouldn't Power Attack any more or less when you're using Arcane Strike than when you aren't. You're burning valuable resources on Arcane Strike when you use it, and you want your iteratives to hit if at all possible. #4 - Take a look at whether you really want Craft Wondrous Item. A Sorcerer's spell selection means that most often you'd be burning scrolls to do your Wondrous Item crafting, and that cuts in seriously to the money savings. I took Craft Magic Arms and Armor instead, and use that feat to help me keep up on +attack and +damage with Fighters that are now taking Melee Weapon Mastery. Caveat: Gishes can differ dramatically depending on the spells selected, and Sorcerer Gishes probably more than most. My Gish runs: 1st - Shield, Magic Missile, Ray of Enfeeblement, Protection from Evil, Lesser Orb of Cold 2nd - Whirling Blade, Resist Energy, False Life 3rd - Haste, Heroism I find that depending on the party, I often fall into a mid-fielder position and I don't spend 100% of my rounds in melee range. Support functions, including especially use of Ray of Enfeeblement and Haste, often take up some of my earlier rounds. Due to this, Improved Initiative and Weapon Focus (when I'm in melee range, I absolutely must hit) seem better to me than Power Attack. A different build could lead to different preferences. PS - Pal/Sor Gish saving throws are phenomenal. (+14/+11/+14 unbuffed at level 9 for me) ------------- A bit of Gish-math as it applies to my character: In order to compete in melee, I figure that my Gish has to be only a little bit below a full Fighter build so that Arcane Strike and other abilities can boost me up to their level or over their level for brief periods. Thus, I compare my attack rolls to those of a Fighter-type that gets at least Melee Weapon Mastery, but not Greater Weapon Focus...which is fairly common... My Gish projected out to level 12: (assumes Belt of Giant Strength & +4 weapon) +9 BAB +5 Strength +4 enhancement +1 Weapon Focus = +19/+14 unbuffed attack schedule Random Fighter-mutt projected out to level 12: (assumes Belt of Giant Strength and +1 weapon...probably with Holy or Flaming or somesuch - Because I have the Crafting feat for my sword, they will likely be at a +2 or +3 total enhancement while I'll be able to afford +4 at least) +12 BAB +6 Strength +1 enhancement +1 Weapon Focus +2 Melee Weapon Mastery = +22/+17/+12 unbuffed attack schedule Even with a +4 weapon over their +1 weapon, they have +3 to hit over me. In effect, I practically look non-proficient with my weapon. IF they don't rage or get Greater Magic Weapon or something similar, I only look non-proficient. Arcane Strike is enough to close the gap for short bursts, but is not sustainable. I could close the gap further by only casting Heroism on myself (if there's no Bard around) but I'd have to be an idiot to not give the Fighter Heroism to boost their flagging Will save, so they get it too. (This isn't actually a competition with my Fighters, but I use them as benchmarks to determine how well I'm doing.) This is why I focus on hitting. Arcane Strike and possibly a +4 Vicious weapon rather than just a +4 weapon can help to close the damage gap, but I need to do everything I can to make sure I at least connect with the bad guy. On the upside, fully self-buffed I look pretty decent: +26/+26/+21 for (2d6+11+4d4) with Heroism, Haste and Arcane Strike IV.
TWG_Prometheus 07-31-07, 05:57 PM	...accidental double-post