Post/Author/DateTime	Post
boogahwoof 06-04-07, 06:26 PM	Ok heres the deal, I am playing a sorcerer, and figured out a way to be empowering my 1st level spells at 4th level. First I already have a warmage so dont wanna do this with him, let me just say that lol. human str 10 dex 14 con 10 wis 10 int 10 cha 16 1 sor spell focus (evo) meta magic school focus (evo) 2 sor 3 sor empower spell 4 sor this is where i am at right now, heres my plan 5 sor 6 sor energy sub (acid) 7 sor 8 sor 9 sor energy admixture So by 9th level ill be able to energy admix my 1st level spells. The thing I am getting at is gonig this route seems like it has been done over and over and over. So I am wondering what you guys imput is on this situation. The whole trick is meta magic school focus reduces the cost of meta feats for whatever school you are focused in by 1 level, so i am looking to empower alot of stuff early. By 10th level I could actually empower and energy admixture a 1st level spell. (empower +1 level, energy sub +0 levels, energy admix +3 levels, i mean i do know i could only do that like 2 times a day but still. Any help wouild be greatly appriciated.
dkay807 06-04-07, 07:00 PM	Since you seem to focusing quite a bit on meta-magic feats... consider the feat Rapid Metamagic. You'll get more use out of it than energy admixture - I'd recommend taking Energy Sub at 6th level, Rapid Metamagic at 9th, and Energy Admixture at 12th. This way, you can "admix" your scorching rays. I have no doubt that there is value in tossing 10d8 lesser orbs at 9th level, but I think you can wait it out for more versatility earlier on.
Lupo 06-04-07, 07:37 PM	Ok heres the deal, I am playing a sorcerer, and figured out a way to be empowering my 1st level spells at 4th level. First I already have a warmage so dont wanna do this with him, let me just say that lol. human str 10 dex 14 con 10 wis 10 int 10 cha 16 1 sor spell focus (evo) meta magic school focus (evo) 2 sor 3 sor empower spell 4 sor this is where i am at right now, heres my plan 5 sor 6 sor energy sub (acid) 7 sor 8 sor 9 sor energy admixture So by 9th level ill be able to energy admix my 1st level spells. The thing I am getting at is gonig this route seems like it has been done over and over and over. So I am wondering what you guys imput is on this situation. The whole trick is meta magic school focus reduces the cost of meta feats for whatever school you are focused in by 1 level, so i am looking to empower alot of stuff early. By 10th level I could actually empower and energy admixture a 1st level spell. (empower +1 level, energy sub +0 levels, energy admix +3 levels, i mean i do know i could only do that like 2 times a day but still. Any help wouild be greatly appriciated. and where is the difference to a blaster warmage????????? everything in your build has a shiny "BLASTER" label sticked on it, no matter whether this is done by a sorcerer, a wizard or a warmage, it is still heavy artillery. beside this, yea the build is fine, three empowers per day each for just ONE slot up is really juicy, especially with rapid metamagic. just drop your strength and do some good for your constitution, strength 10 isn't helping you by any means - apart from the nasty shadow attacks - and there the itchy point is to only start with a st 6 - and you have at least 8 anyway. ciao martin m.
clannagh 06-04-07, 08:09 PM	or energy sub electirc and "born of three thunders"
solbergb 06-04-07, 08:52 PM	and where is the difference to a blaster warmage????????? Presumably in the spells he's planning to take that aren't on the warmage list. If the OP really doesn't have any, warmage is probably a better choice with this build. If, however, he wants some of the usual arcane suspects (eg, mage armor, false life, fly or swift fly, see invisible, dimension door (or any of its little brothers on the NONC list), glitterdust, web, tk, teleport, mass fly blah blah blah) then he's better off as a sorcerer. From a personal standpoint, I'd go with warmage because I like my sorcerers more tightly themed. I'm sensing a bit of that from the OP, he's worried that the character will be flavorless, and he's right to worry. There is still room for spell selection to add flavor though, even if he has tied up all his feats. Without knowing his expected spell known list, I can't give any better advice.
cycloptic_squirrel 06-04-07, 09:31 PM	Recount your point buy - I think you're missing 2, which could bump your Con to 12, which is good; I'd bump it to 14 if you haven't already played with him. You're looking to avoid getting hit, but it happens, and that extra con is nice. In my limited experience with sorcerers, metamagic feats are great for essentially boosting your spell selection by removing things that you want/need. With a scorching ray and empower under your belt, there's a lot less pressure for fireball or lightning bolt at 6th; which makes other spells more attractive (haste, fly, etc.). Rapid metamagic is your friend here, though if you're careful about use, you might not need it. Empower's good, I'd skip energy substitution and admixture; yes, it's cool, but wouldn't it be a similar effect if you had simply chosen a 4th level damage spell? You're looking to get away from the boom mage, though if you want something in your back pocket, try and eek out access for swift maximize; same effect as admixture (kinda), doesn't raise the level or take away from the empowers, though you can only do it once a day (which should be enough, I think). If you're trying to distance yourself from firepower, attempt to have a few spell levels where you don't have any damaging spells; it works if you're careful, the empowers should help, and that leaves more room for buffs or utility. As far as other feats... here are some considerations. CWI: yeah, you'll burn half a fortune in scrolls, but that might be better than an entire fortune if you paid for the item outright. The heritage feat trees: you might see something you like. Improved initiative: going first is always nice. Flash Frost (metamagic, PHBII): if you take cone of cold, it deals a little extra damage and adds a 1 round grease to boot; not optimized but effective and unique. Metamagic Vigor (CM): not sure yet if it'd be worth it, but a sorcerer would have the versatility to make it work. Look over the luck feats from Complete Scoundrel: if I were making a sorcerer I'd invest 2-3 (to power Magical Fortune), but they're not everyone's cup of tea. Two important things to end with. First, carefully consider your spell selection, not only what you want, but also what you can live without. Thing the second, get advice from someone who's knowledge of sorcerers extends a bit beyond theoretical ;) .
Sieylianna 06-04-07, 10:32 PM	Metamagic school focus just came out in March, so you're not going to see PCs built around it. IME, sorcerers are relatively rare, I probably see 4 wizards for every sorcerer. The easy availability of pearls of power also allowed many wizards to imitate sorcerers, at least for lower level spells. This will work some times and other times you'll run into fire/acid immune creatures and you'll be useless. Or you'll run into stuff with high SR and wish you had taken the spell penetration feats. Remember that a fireball spell is counter-spelled by another fireball, regardless of the meta-magic feats you may have applied. Ed
jstorrie 06-05-07, 12:11 AM	Infernal Sorceror Howl is a very, very good Sorceror feat in my opinion. While it falls off in the very high levels, we don't play the very high levels in LG; you will keep pace damage-wise with it and that frees up many of your spell levels for utility, buff, or save-or-die, knocking out a major Sorceror weakness. MMSF is nice for wizards, but less so for sorcerors, who can't specialize and don't get the bonus fifth level feat–effectively putting them two (or three, if they take Rapid Metamagic) spells behind the wizardly counterpart.
magebeast 06-05-07, 12:32 AM	What 1st level spell were you planning to empower/energy admixture?
Morgen 06-05-07, 02:31 PM	Sorcerers can be extremely potent in dealing damage, but your selection of spells is somewhat more important then the feats you take to support them. Pick a direction and go for it. At most your going to be casting 1-2 spells a round, and your not likely to really run out of spell slots in most adventures. Metamagic feats are very nice to stack up on top of each other. Those 6th level spells slots make excellent Sculpted, Empowered, Energy Substitution Electricity, Born of Three Thunders Fireballs. Just don't expect to be a min/maxed grey elf wizard specialist and have saves up in the high 20's for your low level spells.
UMiskatonic 06-05-07, 03:09 PM	I'm working on a sorceror now, and let me tell you what I've learned. Wizards have to plan out thier spells a day in advance. Sorcerors have to plan out thier spells a year in advance. I would go ahead and write out your entire spell selection, from 1-15. Look over it with the following in mind: Am I mobile? Do I have defenses? Do I have offense? Can I target each of the three saves? Do I have a touch attack? Do I have an area effect? Can I get around high SR? Can I help the party? Can I do ability damage? Can I do battlefield control? My sorceror will have to get by with scrolls of fly for a while, since my first 3rd level spell is fireball. (Hey, I'm a fire-wizard). I'll also have empowered lesser fire orb, and empowered ray of enfeeblement by then, so I'm set on offense for a while. I know that I won't have magic missile for a while, so buying a wand of magic missile is a priority. It's good vs. incorporeals, good vs. high AC, and has great range. I should use it up by the time I learn the spell myself, and if not, I'll sell what's left of it for half. 4th level spells will open up empowered false life and empowered scorching ray, so offense and defense are set. That frees me up to take dimension door and wall of ice (subs. to ash) for mobility and battlefield control. I can go on, but this should be an example of the kind of thinking that I find it's REALLY helpful to do.
ToddMorgan 06-05-07, 03:37 PM	As someone who has built more than a few sorcerers, I can say that the heritage feats, especially infernal heritage is a great way to go. in fact, right now i have a sorc who is using the standard progression for infernal heritage, and is taking dragonheart mage to get the dragonic feats. it's pretty sweet, lot of damage dealt, so spells can be battlefield control and buff. if you go draconic, get your draconic breath asap, same goes for infernal howl. that frees up your spells for nice buffing spells/control spells.
solbergb 06-05-07, 03:41 PM	The above poster who talks about "am I mobile, do I have defenses, blah blah" has it right, but remember your plan is a map, it isn't the territory. If in actual play, you are discovering that you are frustrated because you're not mobile enough, or you're getting knocked out in the surprise round, or your offense seems anemic, you need to spend some of your next "levelup" spells known on fixing the problem. Sometimes this means rearranging the "spell known plan". Sometimes it means changing your plan entirely. The good news is that every level after level 2 you get the opportunity to change your spell list in a significant way. Even levels you get a cantrip, a top tier spell, a higher spell slot (for metamagic) and the ability to swap out a lower level spell. Odd levels you get 2-4 new spells. Most problems in a sorc build can be fixed by paying attention to how your game went. If all is fun and roses, stick to the plan. If you got stomped because you lacked a capability, change your priorities or change your plan. This can be really satisfying. Our party got our rear handed to us vs a bunch of big strong elementals when my sorc was level 10. The spells and tactics I thought about while fuming over the defeat for a level paid off in the core special, where I played up to level 14 at level 11 and was a key contributor in defeating the extremely dangerous elemental encounter in the "high' mod. Without the failure AND without reshuffling my plan to match the experience, I wouldn't have been able to provide the necessary contribution later. My problem was I had no spells to handle big, strong monsters with DR and a zillion hitpoints. I had stuff that could affect them, but not fast enough or well enough to turn the tide. Casting magic missile "until you win" times tends to bump up against "your hitpoint total" when they're free to counterattack and my battlefield control was ineffective against their saves and grapple checks. At level 11, 2 of my four spells I learned were chosen to fix that directly (one spell is MORE effective if the enemy is very big, the other "just works" in confined environments no matter how strong the enemy is), and one of my four spells also gave an escape option in open terrain if they were landbound and the other gave a party mobility advantage in open terrain that could also indirectly help (we were hampered by snow and terrain, one of my spells can fix that)
UMiskatonic 06-05-07, 04:12 PM	I'm going to agree with solbergb, and then go one better. My friend Mark found out, to his dismay, that his halfling sorceror had absolutely no offense against fire-resistant creatures. He fixed that at level 5, and had a better career because of it. Of course you should adjust the plan as you go. It's worth pointing out, though, that adjustments can be PART of the plan. i.e. Sleep is your area-effect spell at first level, and you plan on swapping it out for feather fall at 4th level, when you'll pick up glitterdust for area-effect. (I think I got the levels right on that one, got no books on me currently)
solbergb 06-05-07, 05:22 PM	sleep can't be swapped out until level 6, but the idea is sound. more folks are in danger of falling around about level 6 too, so feather fall is a popular "swap-in" or level 7 pick. Or for your fire mage, maybe he has burning hands in levels 1-5, swaps for feather fall at level 6 because he's taking fireball.
UMiskatonic 06-05-07, 07:07 PM	Actually, because I made Khalid Ibn Shazz a while ago, I effectively swapped burning hands for lesser orb of fire, the spell I wanted but couldn't take until 3rd level. The downside of a fifteen foot cone is that you are automatically within 15' of the opponent. Sometimes, a 5ft step if you're really lucky. That just wasn't working. Like you said, actual play may cause you to rethink. In my case, I decided I needed to be farther from melee and have better defense. I decided to grab mage armor now, and magic missile later. I shouldn't REALLY need to worry about incorporeal creatures until APL 6 or so. I decided I could get by with a scroll of feather fall if I was jumping on purpose, and false life in case I wasn't. You don't always fall down, but you -do- always need more hit points. At 7th level, fly should make this irrelevant most of the time.
Morgen 06-06-07, 02:14 AM	Don't take False Life or Mage Armor. Anything that's going to hit you at higher levels is going to hit an 18 as easily as it'll hit a 10 (aka, not a 1.) False Life is meh.
JamesMaissen 06-06-07, 02:36 AM	sleep can't be swapped out until level 6 Well it could be retrained. -James
Timlagor 06-06-07, 03:29 AM	False Life it a simply outstanding spell. Steps for designing a Sorceror 1) Choose your Spells Known List 2) Check your Spells Known List 3) Pick your Feats based on your Spells Known 4) Adjust your Spells Known List to mesh better with your Feats 5) Check that you haven't introduced any gaps to your Spells Known 6) Adjust your Feats again 7) Pick fatespinner and maybe another PrC and throw together some Attributes 8) Take another look at those Spells Known. Since you don't mention a single spell in your original post you are clearly doing something wrong.
UMiskatonic 06-06-07, 10:06 AM	I gotta say, I really like Mage armor. On top of yourself, the monks and animal companions will love you. Should you get surprised while sleeping, or attacked by incorporeals, you're also a hero.
solbergb 06-06-07, 10:34 AM	I like false life, but feather fall isn't usually for the sorcerer. It's for your dumb teammates :) About 70% of the time I've used it, it was for somebody else in the party, or to reduce damage on things like falling blocks of stone that the rogue missed. (in one trap, I had to feather fall the lead party member who fell down the pit AND the giant block of stone that was dropped on his head as part of the trap...ouch...especially as there were spikes at the bottom....) The reason it is a good spell for a sorcerer is that it uses the swift action slot, which you have a harder time using than a wizard, it uses L1 spell slots, which you have in abundance, it scales with level (a L1 scroll or ring won't feather fall an enlarged fighter, and the range is often importat) and it is the kind of spell that when you really need it, it has to be in your head right now. It doesn't fit with all themes, and some sorcs don't fit it into their mix. But while it is not as common as magic missile or glitterdust, it's in the next tier down in how commonly I've seen it on mid-high level sorcerers.
katrick 06-06-07, 05:34 PM	The words for sorceror are Upgrade and Utility.(and Empower) Swap Mage armor for grt mage armor; Dispel magic for grt Dispel; Lsr globe for Grt Globe;Invis for Grt Invis;See Invis for True Seeing;Magic missile for Orb of Force, etc... Seconds, Fourths and Sixths are the difficult choices Make your first and only spell per level, veratile; eg Fly cast 4 times per day can always help most parties, Dim Door is an attack and escape,Disintigrate makes doors, stops Force Cages, breaks Walls of force, as well as hurting bad guys. For my Sorc i went only spells that had no SR and no Save,(or buffs) so every spell i cast always had affect. Never underestimate Displacement or Blur Buy a Cloak Buy an amulet of health, soon. Buy the Rod of Lsr Extend the second you see it!!!!! If you want rays you will need Dex and Feats, any other spell selection will work without feats and you will still meet out the damage. False life can be Empowered and 30 extra Hp's at 10th is always handy. Look for Dragon Skin access(the new Alter Self) Katrick
Franco Un-American 06-06-07, 05:41 PM	See Invis for True Seeing; Be careful with this one; true seeing is limited to 120 ft. I've known DM's to play invisible encounters at beyond true seeing range as a way of playing with people's minds. It works.
Sieylianna 06-06-07, 09:37 PM	Be careful with this one; true seeing is limited to 120 ft. I've known DM's to play invisible encounters at beyond true seeing range as a way of playing with people's minds. It works. True seeing is also expensive - 250 gp a shot. Ed
Rolep 06-06-07, 10:32 PM	I have a question ? Doesnt your stats only amount to 24 points ? just wondering
lunarfish 06-07-07, 01:37 AM	Indeed, Rolep is right - and might I recommend that those four points be spent in Constitution (bringing you up to a 14)? Otherwise, pull two out of strength, two out of Wisdom, and bump the Con to 12 and the Cha to 18. Although I must preface this by saying that I've only played one sorcerer, and he was certainly not an optimized buy. Other, more savvy min/maxers may have better ideas.
solbergb 06-07-07, 11:25 AM	true seeing also requires a combat action. See invis, at least in the last 3rd of the game, can be kept up all day with its 10 min/level duration and plentiful low level slots.
UMiskatonic 06-07-07, 02:10 PM	You only need a 18 CHA if you're going to feature save or die spells. Ranged touch attacks don't need CHA at all, and you'll be glad you have a higher DEX, cuz you'll actually hit. A support sorceror (stone skin, enlarge person, haste, etc.) really only needs a 15 to start, and bump it as you go.
lunarfish 06-07-07, 06:32 PM	Which is why my first recommendation was to bump his Con by four, and only recommended 12 Con 18 Cha second. He COULD also bump his Dex to 16, but I think his Con score is more important at this point in his buy. I know from firsthand experience, 10 Con really, really sucks. So, boogahwoof, you have four more points in your buy to play with: your first job (after, of course, your spell list) is to figure out where you want them.
boogahwoof 06-08-07, 02:24 AM	I thank you for all yalls advise you all have made very valid points to help me along the way