Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-15-07, 02:13 AM	What would be the best way to optimize a Sorcerer/Dragon Deciple? My Sorcerer is Human, lvl 1, has the Concentration 4 ranks; Craft (Alchemy) 4 ranks; Knowledge (arcana) 4 ranks; and Spellcraft 4 ranks. Feats; Draconic Heratiage (Bronze) and Combat Casting. Str 10; Dex 12; Con 14; Int 12; Wis 10; and Cha 16.
clik_ml 05-15-07, 02:30 AM	It depends what you want to do. If you want to not be awful at spellcasting, then avoid the prestige class entirely. Consider taking up Dragonheart Mage (access via County of Urnst wizard metaorg) and while losing a couple caster levels, you at least get better breath weapon and more draconic bonus feats. I'd advise retraining combat casting into a draconic feat when you get higher in level, by the by. If you want to have a huge strength, then Dragon Disciple is useful... but since yer starting with a 10str, that isn't the case here. Looking at the stats and feats taken, even at level 1, it really doesn't look like this character has anything really optimizable via Dragon Disciple.
jstorrie 05-15-07, 05:32 AM	This character does have one thing going for him–he's level one. Hopefully you don't have anything amazing in the one or two ARs you've got? Because if you want to excel as a Dragon Disciple, you're going to need to start over with different stats. There are a few ways to go with DD. The most general type would start with a mixture of Barbarian and/or Fighter, tack on some Bard levels, and then go into DD as early as possible to reap the Strength bonus. Another popular type (which, in all honesty, I don't think much of) is the Marshal/Bard/Dragon Disciple tripper. Paladin 4 is a great way to build into Dragon Disciple as well, as you can add the bonus spell slots to your Paladin casting, which has some excellent low-level spells for a melee combatant. Swashbuckler / Beguiler is an odd way to get into Dragon Disciple, but your Swashbuckler Int bonus would apply to finessable claws. You'd just have damage reduction issues. Ranged and caster Dragon Disciples, unfortunately, are not plausible. For melee Dragon Disciples I really like a few things: 1) swift spells. Bard is short on these, but Sorceror and Paladin have plenty. The useful ones you can get in LG as a Dragon Disciple without special access are: Bladeweave (Bard 2, Sor/Wiz 2): Will save, disabler. Critical Strike (Bard 1, Sor/Wiz1): bonus melee damage. Delay Death (Destiny 3 via Arcane Disciple): super-useful IF you can spare the points on Wisdom. Swift Expeditious Retreat (Bard 1, Sor/Wiz 1): one-round speed boost. Swift Fly (Bard 2, Sor/Wiz 2): one-round flight. Swift Haste (Ranger 2): one-round haste. Inspirational Boost (Bard 1): boosts your bard song. Nice choice for bard DDs. Swift Invisibility (Bard 2): one-round invisibility. Blades of Fire (Sor/Wiz 1, Ranger 1): one-round damage boost. Would be good for Swashbeguiler DDs, but you won't have it on your spell list, unfortunately. 2) Arcane Strike. This feat essentially gives you more swift spell damage boosters. For this reason alone I'd try to get up to 3rd level spells. Getting up there, unfortunately, is hard (unless your region has Suel Arcanamach access.) 3) Retributive Spell. If you've gotten up to second-level spell slots, it's nice to put a no-save first level spell here. If you're frontlining, you will get hit, so it's a kind of cheap Quicken. So with all that added together, I'd favour three types of entry to Dragon Disciple. Note that all of them only lose 1 BAB. Dragon Disciple is already a 3/4 class; you can't afford to lose more before you enter if you're going to be frontlining. I've noted which spellcasting stats you'll require, but as a frontliner you're going to want at least 14 in your physicals, too, so be careful how you spend. - Swashbuckler 3 / Beguiler 1 / Fighter 1: You get good synergy between Swashbuckler's Insightful Strike and your claws, but Beguiler's low level spells are awful for meleeing. But you have a fair number of skills, at least. Requires Int 11+. - Paladin 4 / Bard 4: With Devoted Performer you can get the +2 bardsong, up to +3 if you Inspirational Boost, and you can use Divine Might for Charisma synergy. Pretty solid. Requires Cha 12+. - Paladin 4 / Sorceror 2: A quick way to get in while retaining Charisma synergy. Don't take Warmage, it's a wash. If you enter this early, take a ton of first-level Paladin bonus slots. Requires Cha 11+ and Wis 11+. - Barbarian 1 / Hexblade 4 / Pious Templar 3 or 5: if Paladin-ness doesn't appeal to you, you can use the bonus spell slots on Blackguard spells, instead. Requires Wis 12-14 and Cha 12. Now, if you have Suel Arcanamach access, your options are significantly better. You can do Paladin 4 / Fighter 1 / Occult Slayer 1 / Suel Arcanamach 4 / Dragon Disciple 5 for a very strong build. I'd say one of the best Dragon Disciple builds you can do. The Occult Slayer level is for Spellcraft ranks–any full BAB class that offers Spellcraft will do. Requires Cha 12-14+ and enough Int/human-ness to afford the skill points. You can retrain at Occult Slayer for a slight skill discount.
clik_ml 05-15-07, 08:27 AM	- Paladin 4 / Bard 4: With Devoted Performer you can get the +2 bardsong, up to +3 if you Inspirational Boost My bard/paladin wishes this were true. Devoted Performer just lets levels stack for smite evil damage (not for uses per day), and levels also stack for bardic music uses per day (but not for tiers of abilities). So you are stuck at +1 bard song, +2 with inspirational boost... which isn't terrible mind you. +2 bard song beats the pants off of most low level buffs, and is competitive with mid-level buffs until Righteous Wrath makes fun of bards all day long. This is why my bard/paladin/subchord is going to have 8 bard levels, so that he can actually nab the base +2 inspire courage (that, and more easily qualify for sub chord).
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-15-07, 05:29 PM	Actually I don't wanna excell as a dragon deciple, I just like the idea that i can turn myself into a half dragon with the class. I would rather excel as a sorcerer and just use the DD class to help bloster the weaker parts of my character.
Grantor 05-15-07, 05:37 PM	Actually I don't wanna excell as a dragon deciple, I just like the idea that i can turn myself into a half dragon with the class. I would rather excel as a sorcerer and just use the DD class to help bloster the weaker parts of my character. In exchange for becoming a half dragon, however, you give up effective spell casting. DD does not add spells to your sorcerer on a per level basis. It sounds like what you really want is Dragon Devotee, from Races of Dragon. But sadly, this class is not open and I have never seen access to it. You would have to hope that you can convince the Triad of your region to write and run a special mod, just for you (and some friends), and that is hard to accomplish in most regions. If you want to turn your character into a half dragon, you really need to take a fighter-type character and add a touch of magic. Dragon Disiples are front line fighters, not back row casters.
clik_ml 05-15-07, 06:10 PM	Actually I don't wanna excell as a dragon deciple, I just like the idea that i can turn myself into a half dragon with the class. I would rather excel as a sorcerer and just use the DD class to help bloster the weaker parts of my character. Well there's a problem. The dragon disciple class actively prevents you from excelling as a sorcerer. You get no caster levels, and as a sorcerer, that means you cannot excel. To make a character who excels at something you have to look at what classes give out as abilities and how those abilities can synergize with others in order to complete some useful role. You have stated that you want to excel as a sorcerer... I assume that means casting spells... that can only happen with maximum or near-maximum spell levels. Dragon Disciple won't get you there. You will get +4 strength after 4 levels... so at 9th class level you could have a whopping 14 strength. Not enough to bolster weaker parts of well, anything. At 15th level, as a 5 Sorc/10 Dragon Disciple, you will effectively be a 5th level sorcerer with lots of 2nd level spell slots, and a mediocre strength (worse than some 1st level characters still!). There is no excelling going on there... anywhere. Really a dragonheart mage, dragon devotee, or even a 15 sorcerer who takes draconic feats is no less draconic than a frickin dragon disciple. The only difference is getting the mechanical attribute of the [dragon] type at 15th level as a dragon disciple. Folks would do well to divorce themselves from the notion that a class's or ability's name is more important than what it gives you. Scuttling a character's usefulness from levels 7-onward just to get an ability at 15th level, right before you retire, is bad news. You could survive to 15th level as a 5 sorc/10 dragon disciple with those stats... but only upon the good will and charity of your fellow adventurers who will carry you through each and every combat from APL 8 upward.
Will_DM_for_Pizza 05-16-07, 01:58 AM	But dosen't the DD class give bonus spells?
copper_wyrmling 05-16-07, 02:20 AM	But dosen't the DD class give bonus spells? It gives bonus spells / day, but they have to be of a level you can already cast: you don't get access to higher-level spells, and you stop learning new spells. So as an example, a sorcerer 5 / dragon disciple 5 has a lot of level 1 and level 2 spell slots, but he only knows two second-level spells and four first-level spells. A sorcerer 10 can cast up to fifth-level spells and knows one fifth-level spell, two fourth-level spells, three third-level spells, four second-level spells and five first-level spells. As an example, that might mean the sorcerer 10 can cast teleport, greater invisibility, evard's black tentacles, fireball, haste, fly, resist energy, see invisibility and magic missile PLUS whatever spells the sorcerer 5 / dragon disciple 5 picked. Dragon Disciple doesn't make you a good spellcaster: it makes you better at melee with a little bit of arcane spellcasting on the side. If you think about it, that's fairly appropriate: the scary thing about dragons is usually their melee abilities and breath weapon, not their sorcerer-like spellcasting ;)
Reylance 05-16-07, 01:38 PM	Dragon Disciple remains a fighter prestige class. You should definitely consider Dragonheart Mage; move your character to the County of Urnst if necessary.