Speed versus AC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Speed versus AC [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
trollbill
10-16-06, 04:00 PM Okay, here is the basic concept I am working on. The character is only 2nd-level right now, so plenty of room for changing things out.

Grognar
NG Half-Orc
Str: 18 (10 pts)
Dex: 14 (6 pts)
Con: 14 (6 pts)
Int: 6 (0 pts)
Wis: 14 (6 pts)
Cha: 6 (0 pts)

Domains: Courage & Strength

Lvl1: Barbarian (Combat Reflexes)
Lvl2: Cleric
Lvl3: Cleric (Extra Rage)
Lvl4: Cleric (+1 Wis)
Lvl5: Cleric
Lvl6: Cleric (Power Attack or maybe Blood of Kord)
Lvl7: Cleric
Lvl8: Cleric (+1 Wis)
Lvl9: Cleric (Cleave)
Lvl10: Cleric
Lvl11: Cleric
Lvl12: Cleric (+1 Wis, Improved Critical: Great Sword)
Lvl13: Cleric
Lvl14: Cleric
Lvl15: Cleric (Weapon Focus: Great Sword or Great Cleave)

I plan on eventually fighting in Mithral Plate (30 ft. move with Barbarian) with a Great Sword. The Combat Reflexes is great with the Reach gained from Enlarge Person or Righteous Might.

So here are my questions:

1) My original idea had been to save up at low levels and get masterwork plate, giving me an AC of 19 and speed of 20. It would only change by 1 when I enlarge myself due to the max dex limit of plate and by the time I can get mithral plate, I will likely have better buffs to cast than Enlarge Person. However, I have already gotten access to Elven Chain which would allow me to have AC 17 and speed 40 long before I could afford the Mithral Plate but a while after I could afford the Masterwork Plate. It's also kind of cool that my Half-Orc can run around in Elven Chain given to him in gratitude by the Queen of Celene. But which do you think is more important to the build; AC or Speed? So should I:

a- Just stick with original schedule
b- Buy MW Plate when I get the money, then buy the Elven chain when I get the money, then buy Mithral Plate when I get the money and access.
c- Keep wearing my regular chain shirt until I save up the money for the Elven Chain and just stick with that.

2) I am a bit confused by what the LGCS says regarding Greyhawk feats in the two Dragon Magazine issues. Are only the one's listed on page 12 Core or are all of them Core? I am thinking about getting the Blood of Kord feat which I believe I can get access to if I state my human blood as being Suel.

3) Any other suggestions for the build, bearing in mind that his 1 skill point per level prohibits many PrCs (otherwise I might consider Warpriest) and am reluctant to give up too many Cleric Spellcasting Levels.
Arvagor
10-16-06, 04:13 PM 2) I am a bit confused by what the LGCS says regarding Greyhawk feats in the two Dragon Magazine issues. Are only the one's listed on page 12 Core or are all of them Core? I am thinking about getting the Blood of Kord feat which I believe I can get access to if I state my human blood as being Suel.
Only those feats on page 12 are permitted (with the caveats/updates on pages 25-26); therefore, Blood of Kord is essentially a 'Limited' feat (since it doesn't appear as an allowable option for any class, race, or region), and cannot be taken unless the PC obtains access in some way.

The only region not included in the list at the moment (to my knowledge) is Ratik; their regional feats are: Border Watch, Exercises of Arnd, Mountain Fighter, Vatun's Touch.
Lomiat
10-16-06, 04:18 PM I recommend that you take Power Attack at 3rd level rather than Extra Rage. In fact, I doubt you'll want to take Extra Rage at all, but if you switch the planned position of the two, you'll be a more effective combatant earlier, and you'll have time to consider the relative merit of raging in combat versus casting spells. (I expect most players at most tables would prefer that your cleric maintain the ability to heal their characters, and, should you fall, I doubt they'll feel highly motivated to heal the cleric who rushed into combat and got pounded: "Healer, heal thyself." Etc.)

In fact, I'd recommend that you give more thought to Craft Wondrous Item and, if you really want to be a melee cleric, Craft Magic Arms and Armor.

Do you use a shield or a two-handed weapon? If you use a two-handed weapon, I recommend that you focus on speed (40 ft movement with elven chain), but if you use a shield and a one-handed weapon, I recommend saving up for that mithril full plate (if you can find access).

Of course, all these recommendations assume that you follow your plan to head straight cleric from now on; however, should you choose to abandon cleric in favor of fighter or other melee classes, much of this advice changes. Cleric leads nicely into a Bbn/Clr/Ftr/Pious Templar (maybe with a level of Exotic Weapon Master splashed in).
gomeztoo
10-17-06, 08:15 AM Note that if you stick with Cleric, you'll need at one point a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or you won't be able to cats your highest level spells. Unless you change te last stat boost to Wis instead of STr, than a +2 is enough.
trollbill
10-17-06, 09:35 AM Note that if you stick with Cleric, you'll need at one point a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or you won't be able to cats your highest level spells. Unless you change te last stat boost to Wis instead of STr, than a +2 is enough.

Ooops! Forgot I have already decided to change that. Fixed.
Randall Montgomery
10-17-06, 11:35 AM I would agree with not taking Extra Rage. My wife plays a barbarian with this feat, and generally she never comes close to using up her Rage, even with using it every combat.

I will tell you though, from my experience playing a "battle cleric", you pretty much have to decide whither you want to fight or cast spells, because in combat the two don't mix well. You either have to settle for one, maybe two buff spells, then charge into combat and don't look back, or go full-tilt into spellcasting for party buffs and healing, with the occassional offensive spell. If you try to do both, you're going to find yourself constantly starting melee, then having to somehow disengage to help out your party members who need your support (usually taking AoO's when you do). I strongly suggest you work out exactly what path your taking, and make sure your party is well aware of how you'll be playing before you start each mod. I hope this helps you out, and good luck!
Nutation
10-17-06, 11:47 AM I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian. It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth.

If you drop barbarian, you can replace Extra Rage with a Weapon Proficiency and gain back some of the lost damage. (I assume "cleric with big sword" is central to the concept.)

A level of fighter or ranger still dilutes spell progression. It gives you martial weapon proficiency without the temptation of rage. It imposes an experience penalty.

Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon?
Lomiat
10-17-06, 12:09 PM I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian. It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth.

If you drop barbarian, you can replace Extra Rage with a Weapon Proficiency and gain back some of the lost damage. (I assume "cleric with big sword" is central to the concept.)

A level of fighter or ranger still dilutes spell progression. It gives you martial weapon proficiency without the temptation of rage. It imposes an experience penalty.

Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon?

Per the original post, the PC is already 2nd level, so there's no point debating whether or not he should drop either of the 2 levels he's already taken.

However, Trollbill, you might have noticed that people have caught onto the build's central difficulty: a raging barbarian is not a cleric is not a raging barbarian. You have to choose one of the two roles to play during combats, and if you sit down at a table with 5 cleric levels to your 1 barbarian level, the other players are going to expect that you're taking the cleric role.

If you want to use your levels of cleric in an effective melee combatant build, I recommend you look into the route that leads you toward Pious Templar. Since you've already taken Combat Reflexes, you might want to worship the deity whose favored weapon is Spiked Chain, or some deity whose favored weapon is a reach weapon (and perhaps take Quick Draw somewhere in your build).

If you choose to continue as a cleric, most players will have a hard time coping with a healer who turns off his healing mid-fight so that all the PCs need to live until after the combat to get their healing. Delay Death has become, bar none, the most important 4th level cleric spell, but it requires your healer to be able to cast it in the middle of a fight...
trollbill
10-17-06, 12:37 PM I would agree with not taking Extra Rage. My wife plays a barbarian with this feat, and generally she never comes close to using up her Rage, even with using it every combat.

If I were a straight Barbarian, I'd agree with you. But I only have one level of Barbarian and that means I don't get more Rages as I go up in level.

I will tell you though, from my experience playing a "battle cleric", you pretty much have to decide whither you want to fight or cast spells, because in combat the two don't mix well. You either have to settle for one, maybe two buff spells, then charge into combat and don't look back, or go full-tilt into spellcasting for party buffs and healing, with the occassional offensive spell. If you try to do both, you're going to find yourself constantly starting melee, then having to somehow disengage to help out your party members who need your support (usually taking AoO's when you do).

I agree with this entire line of reasoning, which is why I went with Barbarian. Raging is just another reason to not be tempted to think of myself as a party Cleric rather than party Tank. The entire combat concept of the build is to cast a buff spell or two, charge into melee, then heal everyone up when the fighting is over.

I strongly suggest you work out exactly what path your taking, and make sure your party is well aware of how you'll be playing before you start each mod. I hope this helps you out, and good luck!

I agree. Which is why I am billing myself as a Tank rather than a Cleric. The fact that I can heal everyone after the battle is the gravy, not the main course.

I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian.

I don't like sacrificing spell caster levels either. But in this case, I think the benefits, i.e. +1 BAB, Martial Weapon Proficiency All, +10 ft. move, ability to Rage, 4 more HP, and 4 more skill points are worth one caster level. As to why I chose Barbarian over other martial classes, well, he is a Half-Orc cleric of a god of Strength. There was no more fitting class.

It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth.

Note that while I can't cast while raging, I can always voluntarily stop raging in an emergency. I do suffer the fatigue penalties for doing so, but I can still take this option in an emergency. So I am not truly prevented from doing so.

Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon?

As a Cleric of Kord with the Strength domain I can cast Enlarge Person at low levels and Righteous Might at higher. This gives me Reach. Albeit I can only prepare 1 Enlarge Person a day since it is a domain spell, but Pearls of Power are so common in the PoU I swear every oyster in the Azure Sea grows them naturally. Enlarge Person also has the disadvantage of reducing my Dex by 2, losing me an AoO, but I look at it this way: First enemy provokes expected AoO from Reach. Second enemy provokes unexpected AoO from Reach. Third plus enemies now avoid provoking AoOs because they don't know how many I have left.

Now let me be clear here to everyone. I am not asking for suggestions because I want the build to be Uber-munched as a Tank Cleric. Not because I have anything against Uber-munching, but because I don’t want to play the same cookie-cutter clones everyone else playing a Tank Cleric is playing. I want my character to have…well…some character. So I am not looking to have an Uber character, I am merely looking to have an effective one. So my goal here is to look for suggestions on how to be more effective within the constraints I have placed on the character.

Thank you all for your suggestions. Keep them coming.
trollbill
10-17-06, 12:48 PM If you choose to continue as a cleric, most players will have a hard time coping with a healer who turns off his healing mid-fight so that all the PCs need to live until after the combat to get their healing. Delay Death has become, bar none, the most important 4th level cleric spell, but it requires your healer to be able to cast it in the middle of a fight...

As I mentioned just now, I always have the option of dropping out of my rage as a free action and switching over to full cleric mode in an emergency. It's not the most pleasent of options, but it is an option. If I find myself constantly having to drop out of Rage to save people with Delay Death, this may be a problem. But I think if I am constantly finding myself doing this, there is more to the party's problems than just me Raging.
Drezden
10-17-06, 12:50 PM I am going to disagree with many of the posters and say that Barbarian 1/Cleric 14 works just fine. I knew somebody who retired a character like that - he was very effective.

You do, however, have to make it clear to any table you play at that you are not an "in combat healer," since you will be raging all the time. I play all the time without any Cleric or Druid, so having one who just can't heal in combat shouldn't be so hard to understand. Obviously, if something terrible happens in a surprise round or before you go into your rage, you still have the flexibility to respond.

Obviously, keep Extra Rage - it is an essential feat for anyone who just want to take a quick dip into Barbarian levels. I would switch up Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. I would also try and move Cleave up.

As far as your original question, I think AC is more important than speed - but that is defintely open to debate. Some people believe that for a low AC character, you might as well just tank AC alltogether. OF course, in your case, you will have access to some nice AC buffs, so that is even more reason to keep your AC up - it can likely make a difference.

The biggest problem you will face is striking the balance between buffing yourself and getting into combat. 1 round of buffing is usually ok - more than that and you are (usually) hurting the party - at least when you are supposed to be a frontliner. This is especially true at high APLs when fights rarely last more than 2 rounds.

Daren
Randall Montgomery
10-17-06, 01:55 PM If I were a straight Barbarian, I'd agree with you. But I only have one level of Barbarian and that means I don't get more Rages as I go up in level.

Good point, I missed that.

Thank you all for your suggestions. Keep them coming.

One option I'd consider is taking Quicken Spell instead of Cleave at 9th level. You can prepare a Quickened Divine Favor for a +3 luck bonus, cast your Righteous Might normally, Rage, and then wade in for your AoO's with your leftover move action.

Actually, I wish I'd thought of that when I was playing my cleric.... :(

P.S. I would go with the speed over the AC, because to maxamize your AoO's you'll want to be able to move to the most advantageous location, preferably while getting in an attack.
jstorrie
10-17-06, 05:27 PM Definitely replace Cleave. Cleave is right down there with Monkey Grip for 'Fool's Gold Feats.'
Drezden
10-17-06, 06:51 PM I disagree. Cleave is a very good feat at low levels and is still useful at high levels, especially if you are Large Size and/or have reach - which the player said he intends to be frequently through Enlarge Person and Righteous Might.

Daren

Definitely replace Cleave. Cleave is right down there with Monkey Grip for 'Fool's Gold Feats.'
Lupo
10-17-06, 07:00 PM I disagree. Cleave is a very good feat at low levels and is still useful at high levels, especially if you are Large Size and/or have reach - which the player said he intends to be frequently through Enlarge Person and Righteous Might.

Daren

cleave is good, more than half of your levels you will get an opportunity almost every fight to use it, later on, it looses some of its bite, but still will give you an additional attack here and there.

especcially when you can make your first attack an devasting one, with smite, enlarge person, strength boost etc., you will more often get a cleave opportunity.

it needs some metagaming, count on hits and hp loss of foes to always choose the right target for a cleave attempt. and a party spellcaster blaster who knows you have the feat migt consider soften them up one-by-one around you.

the fools-gold is "greater cleave", foes that fall like pins on an bowling alley are no real thread and are not too common in lg anyway as foes tend to scale with your character.

ciao

martin m.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
trollbill 10-16-06, 04:00 PM	Okay, here is the basic concept I am working on. The character is only 2nd-level right now, so plenty of room for changing things out. Grognar NG Half-Orc Str: 18 (10 pts) Dex: 14 (6 pts) Con: 14 (6 pts) Int: 6 (0 pts) Wis: 14 (6 pts) Cha: 6 (0 pts) Domains: Courage & Strength Lvl1: Barbarian (Combat Reflexes) Lvl2: Cleric Lvl3: Cleric (Extra Rage) Lvl4: Cleric (+1 Wis) Lvl5: Cleric Lvl6: Cleric (Power Attack or maybe Blood of Kord) Lvl7: Cleric Lvl8: Cleric (+1 Wis) Lvl9: Cleric (Cleave) Lvl10: Cleric Lvl11: Cleric Lvl12: Cleric (+1 Wis, Improved Critical: Great Sword) Lvl13: Cleric Lvl14: Cleric Lvl15: Cleric (Weapon Focus: Great Sword or Great Cleave) I plan on eventually fighting in Mithral Plate (30 ft. move with Barbarian) with a Great Sword. The Combat Reflexes is great with the Reach gained from Enlarge Person or Righteous Might. So here are my questions: 1) My original idea had been to save up at low levels and get masterwork plate, giving me an AC of 19 and speed of 20. It would only change by 1 when I enlarge myself due to the max dex limit of plate and by the time I can get mithral plate, I will likely have better buffs to cast than Enlarge Person. However, I have already gotten access to Elven Chain which would allow me to have AC 17 and speed 40 long before I could afford the Mithral Plate but a while after I could afford the Masterwork Plate. It's also kind of cool that my Half-Orc can run around in Elven Chain given to him in gratitude by the Queen of Celene. But which do you think is more important to the build; AC or Speed? So should I: a- Just stick with original schedule b- Buy MW Plate when I get the money, then buy the Elven chain when I get the money, then buy Mithral Plate when I get the money and access. c- Keep wearing my regular chain shirt until I save up the money for the Elven Chain and just stick with that. 2) I am a bit confused by what the LGCS says regarding Greyhawk feats in the two Dragon Magazine issues. Are only the one's listed on page 12 Core or are all of them Core? I am thinking about getting the Blood of Kord feat which I believe I can get access to if I state my human blood as being Suel. 3) Any other suggestions for the build, bearing in mind that his 1 skill point per level prohibits many PrCs (otherwise I might consider Warpriest) and am reluctant to give up too many Cleric Spellcasting Levels.
Arvagor 10-16-06, 04:13 PM	2) I am a bit confused by what the LGCS says regarding Greyhawk feats in the two Dragon Magazine issues. Are only the one's listed on page 12 Core or are all of them Core? I am thinking about getting the Blood of Kord feat which I believe I can get access to if I state my human blood as being Suel. Only those feats on page 12 are permitted (with the caveats/updates on pages 25-26); therefore, Blood of Kord is essentially a 'Limited' feat (since it doesn't appear as an allowable option for any class, race, or region), and cannot be taken unless the PC obtains access in some way. The only region not included in the list at the moment (to my knowledge) is Ratik; their regional feats are: Border Watch, Exercises of Arnd, Mountain Fighter, Vatun's Touch.
Lomiat 10-16-06, 04:18 PM	I recommend that you take Power Attack at 3rd level rather than Extra Rage. In fact, I doubt you'll want to take Extra Rage at all, but if you switch the planned position of the two, you'll be a more effective combatant earlier, and you'll have time to consider the relative merit of raging in combat versus casting spells. (I expect most players at most tables would prefer that your cleric maintain the ability to heal their characters, and, should you fall, I doubt they'll feel highly motivated to heal the cleric who rushed into combat and got pounded: "Healer, heal thyself." Etc.) In fact, I'd recommend that you give more thought to Craft Wondrous Item and, if you really want to be a melee cleric, Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Do you use a shield or a two-handed weapon? If you use a two-handed weapon, I recommend that you focus on speed (40 ft movement with elven chain), but if you use a shield and a one-handed weapon, I recommend saving up for that mithril full plate (if you can find access). Of course, all these recommendations assume that you follow your plan to head straight cleric from now on; however, should you choose to abandon cleric in favor of fighter or other melee classes, much of this advice changes. Cleric leads nicely into a Bbn/Clr/Ftr/Pious Templar (maybe with a level of Exotic Weapon Master splashed in).
gomeztoo 10-17-06, 08:15 AM	Note that if you stick with Cleric, you'll need at one point a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or you won't be able to cats your highest level spells. Unless you change te last stat boost to Wis instead of STr, than a +2 is enough.
trollbill 10-17-06, 09:35 AM	Note that if you stick with Cleric, you'll need at one point a Periapt of Wisdom +4 or you won't be able to cats your highest level spells. Unless you change te last stat boost to Wis instead of STr, than a +2 is enough. Ooops! Forgot I have already decided to change that. Fixed.
Randall Montgomery 10-17-06, 11:35 AM	I would agree with not taking Extra Rage. My wife plays a barbarian with this feat, and generally she never comes close to using up her Rage, even with using it every combat. I will tell you though, from my experience playing a "battle cleric", you pretty much have to decide whither you want to fight or cast spells, because in combat the two don't mix well. You either have to settle for one, maybe two buff spells, then charge into combat and don't look back, or go full-tilt into spellcasting for party buffs and healing, with the occassional offensive spell. If you try to do both, you're going to find yourself constantly starting melee, then having to somehow disengage to help out your party members who need your support (usually taking AoO's when you do). I strongly suggest you work out exactly what path your taking, and make sure your party is well aware of how you'll be playing before you start each mod. I hope this helps you out, and good luck!
Nutation 10-17-06, 11:47 AM	I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian. It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth. If you drop barbarian, you can replace Extra Rage with a Weapon Proficiency and gain back some of the lost damage. (I assume "cleric with big sword" is central to the concept.) A level of fighter or ranger still dilutes spell progression. It gives you martial weapon proficiency without the temptation of rage. It imposes an experience penalty. Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon?
Lomiat 10-17-06, 12:09 PM	I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian. It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth. If you drop barbarian, you can replace Extra Rage with a Weapon Proficiency and gain back some of the lost damage. (I assume "cleric with big sword" is central to the concept.) A level of fighter or ranger still dilutes spell progression. It gives you martial weapon proficiency without the temptation of rage. It imposes an experience penalty. Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon? Per the original post, the PC is already 2nd level, so there's no point debating whether or not he should drop either of the 2 levels he's already taken. However, Trollbill, you might have noticed that people have caught onto the build's central difficulty: a raging barbarian is not a cleric is not a raging barbarian. You have to choose one of the two roles to play during combats, and if you sit down at a table with 5 cleric levels to your 1 barbarian level, the other players are going to expect that you're taking the cleric role. If you want to use your levels of cleric in an effective melee combatant build, I recommend you look into the route that leads you toward Pious Templar. Since you've already taken Combat Reflexes, you might want to worship the deity whose favored weapon is Spiked Chain, or some deity whose favored weapon is a reach weapon (and perhaps take Quick Draw somewhere in your build). If you choose to continue as a cleric, most players will have a hard time coping with a healer who turns off his healing mid-fight so that all the PCs need to live until after the combat to get their healing. Delay Death has become, bar none, the most important 4th level cleric spell, but it requires your healer to be able to cast it in the middle of a fight...
trollbill 10-17-06, 12:37 PM	I would agree with not taking Extra Rage. My wife plays a barbarian with this feat, and generally she never comes close to using up her Rage, even with using it every combat. If I were a straight Barbarian, I'd agree with you. But I only have one level of Barbarian and that means I don't get more Rages as I go up in level. I will tell you though, from my experience playing a "battle cleric", you pretty much have to decide whither you want to fight or cast spells, because in combat the two don't mix well. You either have to settle for one, maybe two buff spells, then charge into combat and don't look back, or go full-tilt into spellcasting for party buffs and healing, with the occassional offensive spell. If you try to do both, you're going to find yourself constantly starting melee, then having to somehow disengage to help out your party members who need your support (usually taking AoO's when you do). I agree with this entire line of reasoning, which is why I went with Barbarian. Raging is just another reason to not be tempted to think of myself as a party Cleric rather than party Tank. The entire combat concept of the build is to cast a buff spell or two, charge into melee, then heal everyone up when the fighting is over. I strongly suggest you work out exactly what path your taking, and make sure your party is well aware of how you'll be playing before you start each mod. I hope this helps you out, and good luck! I agree. Which is why I am billing myself as a Tank rather than a Cleric. The fact that I can heal everyone after the battle is the gravy, not the main course. I'm not sure why you want to dilute a nearly pure cleric build with barbarian. I don't like sacrificing spell caster levels either. But in this case, I think the benefits, i.e. +1 BAB, Martial Weapon Proficiency All, +10 ft. move, ability to Rage, 4 more HP, and 4 more skill points are worth one caster level. As to why I chose Barbarian over other martial classes, well, he is a Half-Orc cleric of a god of Strength. There was no more fitting class. It not only slows spell advancement (the usual reason against), but you can't cast while raging. Your character at 12th level will have 6th level spells (such as Heal!) that he can't use in an emergency because he's frothing at the mouth. Note that while I can't cast while raging, I can always voluntarily stop raging in an emergency. I do suffer the fatigue penalties for doing so, but I can still take this option in an emergency. So I am not truly prevented from doing so. Combat Reflexes without a reach weapon? As a Cleric of Kord with the Strength domain I can cast Enlarge Person at low levels and Righteous Might at higher. This gives me Reach. Albeit I can only prepare 1 Enlarge Person a day since it is a domain spell, but Pearls of Power are so common in the PoU I swear every oyster in the Azure Sea grows them naturally. Enlarge Person also has the disadvantage of reducing my Dex by 2, losing me an AoO, but I look at it this way: First enemy provokes expected AoO from Reach. Second enemy provokes unexpected AoO from Reach. Third plus enemies now avoid provoking AoOs because they don't know how many I have left. Now let me be clear here to everyone. I am not asking for suggestions because I want the build to be Uber-munched as a Tank Cleric. Not because I have anything against Uber-munching, but because I don’t want to play the same cookie-cutter clones everyone else playing a Tank Cleric is playing. I want my character to have…well…some character. So I am not looking to have an Uber character, I am merely looking to have an effective one. So my goal here is to look for suggestions on how to be more effective within the constraints I have placed on the character. Thank you all for your suggestions. Keep them coming.
trollbill 10-17-06, 12:48 PM	If you choose to continue as a cleric, most players will have a hard time coping with a healer who turns off his healing mid-fight so that all the PCs need to live until after the combat to get their healing. Delay Death has become, bar none, the most important 4th level cleric spell, but it requires your healer to be able to cast it in the middle of a fight... As I mentioned just now, I always have the option of dropping out of my rage as a free action and switching over to full cleric mode in an emergency. It's not the most pleasent of options, but it is an option. If I find myself constantly having to drop out of Rage to save people with Delay Death, this may be a problem. But I think if I am constantly finding myself doing this, there is more to the party's problems than just me Raging.
Drezden 10-17-06, 12:50 PM	I am going to disagree with many of the posters and say that Barbarian 1/Cleric 14 works just fine. I knew somebody who retired a character like that - he was very effective. You do, however, have to make it clear to any table you play at that you are not an "in combat healer," since you will be raging all the time. I play all the time without any Cleric or Druid, so having one who just can't heal in combat shouldn't be so hard to understand. Obviously, if something terrible happens in a surprise round or before you go into your rage, you still have the flexibility to respond. Obviously, keep Extra Rage - it is an essential feat for anyone who just want to take a quick dip into Barbarian levels. I would switch up Power Attack and Combat Reflexes. I would also try and move Cleave up. As far as your original question, I think AC is more important than speed - but that is defintely open to debate. Some people believe that for a low AC character, you might as well just tank AC alltogether. OF course, in your case, you will have access to some nice AC buffs, so that is even more reason to keep your AC up - it can likely make a difference. The biggest problem you will face is striking the balance between buffing yourself and getting into combat. 1 round of buffing is usually ok - more than that and you are (usually) hurting the party - at least when you are supposed to be a frontliner. This is especially true at high APLs when fights rarely last more than 2 rounds. Daren
Randall Montgomery 10-17-06, 01:55 PM	If I were a straight Barbarian, I'd agree with you. But I only have one level of Barbarian and that means I don't get more Rages as I go up in level. Good point, I missed that. Thank you all for your suggestions. Keep them coming. One option I'd consider is taking Quicken Spell instead of Cleave at 9th level. You can prepare a Quickened Divine Favor for a +3 luck bonus, cast your Righteous Might normally, Rage, and then wade in for your AoO's with your leftover move action. Actually, I wish I'd thought of that when I was playing my cleric.... :( P.S. I would go with the speed over the AC, because to maxamize your AoO's you'll want to be able to move to the most advantageous location, preferably while getting in an attack.
jstorrie 10-17-06, 05:27 PM	Definitely replace Cleave. Cleave is right down there with Monkey Grip for 'Fool's Gold Feats.'
Drezden 10-17-06, 06:51 PM	I disagree. Cleave is a very good feat at low levels and is still useful at high levels, especially if you are Large Size and/or have reach - which the player said he intends to be frequently through Enlarge Person and Righteous Might. Daren Definitely replace Cleave. Cleave is right down there with Monkey Grip for 'Fool's Gold Feats.'
Lupo 10-17-06, 07:00 PM	I disagree. Cleave is a very good feat at low levels and is still useful at high levels, especially if you are Large Size and/or have reach - which the player said he intends to be frequently through Enlarge Person and Righteous Might. Daren cleave is good, more than half of your levels you will get an opportunity almost every fight to use it, later on, it looses some of its bite, but still will give you an additional attack here and there. especcially when you can make your first attack an devasting one, with smite, enlarge person, strength boost etc., you will more often get a cleave opportunity. it needs some metagaming, count on hits and hp loss of foes to always choose the right target for a cleave attempt. and a party spellcaster blaster who knows you have the feat migt consider soften them up one-by-one around you. the fools-gold is "greater cleave", foes that fall like pins on an bowling alley are no real thread and are not too common in lg anyway as foes tend to scale with your character. ciao martin m.