Spiked Barding [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spiked Barding [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KShaver
11-20-06, 09:07 AM A bit of an odd idea, so I thought I'd run it through the public ringer here first:

By the campaign standards a animal/mount should be able to wear barding with armor spikes. As an animal companion it should be able to even take martial weapon proficiency: armor spikes as one of its feats gained through advanced hit dice.

Pretty simple, but is there anything I missed, perhaps preventing an animal companion from using armor spikes? Obviously normal rules for mixed attacks would be in effect, i.e. armor spikes as main attack at STRx1 and any other natural attacks as secondaries at -5 to hit and STRx.5. Perhaps it would take a trick or a push to get the animal to use the armor spikes, but even thats not a big deal. The main concern is simply, is it possible?

While perhaps not optimal at the lower levels, it seems it might have some advantages on occasion, particularly when you can't cast magic fang to help him hit DR/magic or incorporeal creatures (beastmaster/animal lord-wolf lord).
UMiskatonic
11-20-06, 04:08 PM Well, two things come to mind.

Armor spikes are useful when you grapple. Not all animals are good at grappling. For those that are, (crocodile), this is a solid move.

Armor spikes are probably martial weapons (off the top of my head). This might introduce a non-proficiency penalty.

A close read of armor spikes and grapple rules would probably answer your questions, which I can't do from work.
KShaver
11-20-06, 04:28 PM Armor spikes are useful when you grapple. Not all animals are good at grappling. For those that are, (crocodile), this is a solid move.

Grappling wasn't really what I had in mind, but they might come in handy there. They aren't just for grappling as they can also be used to directly attack like a normal weapon.

As far as the animal goes it would likely to be a riding dog animal companion.

Armor spikes are probably martial weapons (off the top of my head). This might introduce a non-proficiency penalty.

They are indeed martial and would invoke a non proficiency penalty, but an animal companion should be able to take proficiency in them with one of its feats gained through its advanced hit dice.

The idea came about because the character will be sporting very spiky armor herself and I thought it would be pretty cool if the animal companion did the same...then I realized that he might even be able to use them, but that brought about a few questions as I had never seen much of a precedence for it before.
clik_ml
11-21-06, 08:31 AM There are fuzzy areas even on what is required of an animal to use armor at all.

If a DM is on the fence for that, then they are likely to go over the fence the other way once use of armor spikes is introduced to them.

Some DMs may also outright forbid something with animal intelligence even taking a weapon proficiency (I'd be likely to do so).

You will definitely get table variation, but if your companion isn't certed, then you could effectively have written up one version with armor spikes + proficiency ready to go, along with an alternate backup in case the DM poo-poo's it, and just ask before the start of each mod.
Gelth
11-21-06, 01:19 PM Advanced fiendish dire tigers in spiked fullplate! Aargh!
It's not hiding behind the hill, it is the hill.

--Penn, Ket Triad
KShaver
11-21-06, 04:40 PM Advanced fiendish dire tigers in spiked fullplate! Aargh!
It's not hiding behind the hill, it is the hill.

--Penn, Ket Triad

Not trying to go that far, but I might also point out that while the tiger may gain an extra attack, it loses a lot of attack value off of its primaries as they get pushed back into the -5 to hit range.

Ehh, a thought just hit me. If it uses armor spikes as a primary weapon it also gains iterative attacks for high BAB, then its naturals at -5, and in the case of the dire tiger can use them all on a charge. :eek:

Honestly for once I wasn't trying to break anything, but just be interesting. :embarrass
Cynric
11-21-06, 07:57 PM Ehh, a thought just hit me. If it uses armor spikes as a primary weapon it also gains iterative attacks for high BAB, then its naturals at -5, and in the case of the dire tiger can use them all on a charge. :eek:

Honestly for once I wasn't trying to break anything, but just be interesting. :embarrass

I am going to have to look at this closely as my tiger is already causing problems, this would make it worse:D
_m_
11-21-06, 08:32 PM I am going to have to look at this closely as my tiger is already causing problems, this would make it worse:D

i have a fairly important question regarding your tiger:

whats its name? :rolleyes:
Cynric
11-21-06, 09:39 PM i have a fairly important question regarding your tiger:

whats its name? :rolleyes:

Leijhana. It was Tusaii, but then he died. Demons do that though
copper_wyrmling
11-21-06, 09:47 PM Some DMs may also outright forbid something with animal intelligence even taking a weapon proficiency (I'd be likely to do so).

As would I. I think it was the druid who had his ape using a greatsword that pushed me off the fence on that one. If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though.
Cynric
11-21-06, 10:07 PM . If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though.

I agree with your logic. However, a creature that fights by grappling (rules) should be able to use armour spikes as that is how you use them. Roll all over them etc.
_m_
11-21-06, 10:28 PM As would I. I think it was the druid who had his ape using a greatsword that pushed me off the fence on that one. If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though.

also depends on the pet a little. of course, most animal companions only have basic animal intelligence, in which case, i dont think they'd use weapons.

i mean really, do you think your pet dog is going to be smart enough to realise that you straped metal spikes to its cheast, so insted of just biting and clawing like a million years of evolution tells it to, it has to jump and slash with its body?

ok, addmitedly logic has very little to do with d&d, but it does seem a little odd.

that said, there are deffinately comapnions who i would be happy to see using weapons.
KShaver
11-22-06, 10:31 AM i mean really, do you think your pet dog is going to be smart enough to realise that you straped metal spikes to its cheast...

Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have.

Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats.
_m_
11-22-06, 05:52 PM Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have.

Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats.

i wonder if multi attack would help with the spikes / nats
KShaver
11-22-06, 07:45 PM i wonder if multi attack would help with the spikes / nats

By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes.
_m_
11-22-06, 08:23 PM By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes.

that would be... interesting.

incidentaly, if you have a nil ( - ) str score, do you do d* - 5 damage with a weapon?
budleiser
11-22-06, 08:36 PM MTV just showed a pitbull that can skateboard!

(My argument that animals are smarter than every D&D player makes them out to be)
clannagh
11-22-06, 11:47 PM Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have.

Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats.

why hust spring attack .. give it whirlwind :)
Reska
11-23-06, 11:10 AM that would be... interesting.

incidentaly, if you have a nil ( - ) str score, do you do d* - 5 damage with a weapon?

No. a Nil score is not the same as a 0 score. For instance, Undead have a nil Con score, but that doesn't mean their fortitude saves are at -5.
KShaver
11-23-06, 11:46 AM why hust spring attack .. give it whirlwind :)

He's not smart enough, whirlwind requires 13 int for the chain. It also requires 5 feats, which is one more than a character can give their viper, unless there are some funky ARs pet bonuses out there.
Cynric
11-23-06, 05:43 PM By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes.

Now that makes it viable for my tiger. I was worried about the minus 5, but multi attack should take care of it enough.:cool:
_m_
11-23-06, 05:58 PM No. a Nil score is not the same as a 0 score. For instance, Undead have a nil Con score, but that doesn't mean their fortitude saves are at -5.

true. but undead automatically pass any fort saves they are required to make. by the same logic, a nil score strength character would auto pass any strength test...

also: can familiars have barding?
Reska
11-23-06, 06:32 PM true. but undead automatically pass any fort saves they are required to make. by the same logic, a nil score strength character would auto pass any strength test...

also: can familiars have barding?

Umm, no, Undead don't automatically pass any fort saves. It is still affected by any that work on objects or is harmless. For instance a Zombie is immune to poison but affected by disintegrate.

Chek page 312 of the MM under "non-abilities".

As for a Familiar having barding...*shrug*
_m_
11-23-06, 06:53 PM Umm, no, Undead don't automatically pass any fort saves. It is still affected by any that work on objects or is harmless. For instance a Zombie is immune to poison but affected by disintegrate.

Chek page 312 of the MM under "non-abilities".

As for a Familiar having barding...*shrug*

shrug as in dont know, shrug as in dont care, or shrug as in, it would look funny if a familiar in barding shrugged.
Cynric
11-23-06, 06:56 PM Considering the looks I get from most GM's when I tell them my tiger wears metal barding, then I would go with shrug, looks funny:D
_m_
11-23-06, 07:01 PM Considering the looks I get from most GM's when I tell them my tiger wears metal barding, then I would go with shrug, looks funny:D

lol. if i were to equip my 3 familiars (my cohorts, my old one, and my new one)

id have a barded blink dog, a psuedodragon in tiny little armour, and a large elemental wearing ghost touch armour (because it would fall through her otherwise)

though actually i think if a shadow incorporeal equips something, it becomes ethereal (i think thats from around page 156 in tome of magic)
Reska
11-23-06, 07:14 PM shrug as in dont know, shrug as in dont care, or shrug as in, it would look funny if a familiar in barding shrugged.

I think I'll go for the 4th option . *shrug* as in "Hey look...shiny!"
_m_
11-23-06, 07:22 PM I think I'll go for the 4th option . *shrug* as in "Hey look...shiny!"

hehe. very nice.

"i was going to take over the world today... but i got distracted by something shiny."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KShaver 11-20-06, 09:07 AM	A bit of an odd idea, so I thought I'd run it through the public ringer here first: By the campaign standards a animal/mount should be able to wear barding with armor spikes. As an animal companion it should be able to even take martial weapon proficiency: armor spikes as one of its feats gained through advanced hit dice. Pretty simple, but is there anything I missed, perhaps preventing an animal companion from using armor spikes? Obviously normal rules for mixed attacks would be in effect, i.e. armor spikes as main attack at STRx1 and any other natural attacks as secondaries at -5 to hit and STRx.5. Perhaps it would take a trick or a push to get the animal to use the armor spikes, but even thats not a big deal. The main concern is simply, is it possible? While perhaps not optimal at the lower levels, it seems it might have some advantages on occasion, particularly when you can't cast magic fang to help him hit DR/magic or incorporeal creatures (beastmaster/animal lord-wolf lord).
UMiskatonic 11-20-06, 04:08 PM	Well, two things come to mind. Armor spikes are useful when you grapple. Not all animals are good at grappling. For those that are, (crocodile), this is a solid move. Armor spikes are probably martial weapons (off the top of my head). This might introduce a non-proficiency penalty. A close read of armor spikes and grapple rules would probably answer your questions, which I can't do from work.
KShaver 11-20-06, 04:28 PM	Armor spikes are useful when you grapple. Not all animals are good at grappling. For those that are, (crocodile), this is a solid move. Grappling wasn't really what I had in mind, but they might come in handy there. They aren't just for grappling as they can also be used to directly attack like a normal weapon. As far as the animal goes it would likely to be a riding dog animal companion. Armor spikes are probably martial weapons (off the top of my head). This might introduce a non-proficiency penalty. They are indeed martial and would invoke a non proficiency penalty, but an animal companion should be able to take proficiency in them with one of its feats gained through its advanced hit dice. The idea came about because the character will be sporting very spiky armor herself and I thought it would be pretty cool if the animal companion did the same...then I realized that he might even be able to use them, but that brought about a few questions as I had never seen much of a precedence for it before.
clik_ml 11-21-06, 08:31 AM	There are fuzzy areas even on what is required of an animal to use armor at all. If a DM is on the fence for that, then they are likely to go over the fence the other way once use of armor spikes is introduced to them. Some DMs may also outright forbid something with animal intelligence even taking a weapon proficiency (I'd be likely to do so). You will definitely get table variation, but if your companion isn't certed, then you could effectively have written up one version with armor spikes + proficiency ready to go, along with an alternate backup in case the DM poo-poo's it, and just ask before the start of each mod.
Gelth 11-21-06, 01:19 PM	Advanced fiendish dire tigers in spiked fullplate! Aargh! It's not hiding behind the hill, it is the hill. --Penn, Ket Triad
KShaver 11-21-06, 04:40 PM	Advanced fiendish dire tigers in spiked fullplate! Aargh! It's not hiding behind the hill, it is the hill. --Penn, Ket Triad Not trying to go that far, but I might also point out that while the tiger may gain an extra attack, it loses a lot of attack value off of its primaries as they get pushed back into the -5 to hit range. Ehh, a thought just hit me. If it uses armor spikes as a primary weapon it also gains iterative attacks for high BAB, then its naturals at -5, and in the case of the dire tiger can use them all on a charge. :eek: Honestly for once I wasn't trying to break anything, but just be interesting. :embarrass
Cynric 11-21-06, 07:57 PM	Ehh, a thought just hit me. If it uses armor spikes as a primary weapon it also gains iterative attacks for high BAB, then its naturals at -5, and in the case of the dire tiger can use them all on a charge. :eek: Honestly for once I wasn't trying to break anything, but just be interesting. :embarrass I am going to have to look at this closely as my tiger is already causing problems, this would make it worse:D
_m_ 11-21-06, 08:32 PM	I am going to have to look at this closely as my tiger is already causing problems, this would make it worse:D i have a fairly important question regarding your tiger: whats its name? :rolleyes:
Cynric 11-21-06, 09:39 PM	i have a fairly important question regarding your tiger: whats its name? :rolleyes: Leijhana. It was Tusaii, but then he died. Demons do that though
copper_wyrmling 11-21-06, 09:47 PM	Some DMs may also outright forbid something with animal intelligence even taking a weapon proficiency (I'd be likely to do so). As would I. I think it was the druid who had his ape using a greatsword that pushed me off the fence on that one. If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though.
Cynric 11-21-06, 10:07 PM	. If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though. I agree with your logic. However, a creature that fights by grappling (rules) should be able to use armour spikes as that is how you use them. Roll all over them etc.
_m_ 11-21-06, 10:28 PM	As would I. I think it was the druid who had his ape using a greatsword that pushed me off the fence on that one. If it's not a tool user, I don't see how you can claim it to be a weapon user, and if it can't use a weapon with the -4 nonproficiency penalty, I don't think removing that penalty by taking a feat would help. I just don't think animal intelligence allows the creature to comprehend using a weapon - they fight on instinct, and their instincts are to use their natural weapons. Your mileage may vary, though. also depends on the pet a little. of course, most animal companions only have basic animal intelligence, in which case, i dont think they'd use weapons. i mean really, do you think your pet dog is going to be smart enough to realise that you straped metal spikes to its cheast, so insted of just biting and clawing like a million years of evolution tells it to, it has to jump and slash with its body? ok, addmitedly logic has very little to do with d&d, but it does seem a little odd. that said, there are deffinately comapnions who i would be happy to see using weapons.
KShaver 11-22-06, 10:31 AM	i mean really, do you think your pet dog is going to be smart enough to realise that you straped metal spikes to its cheast... Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have. Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats.
_m_ 11-22-06, 05:52 PM	Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have. Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats. i wonder if multi attack would help with the spikes / nats
KShaver 11-22-06, 07:45 PM	i wonder if multi attack would help with the spikes / nats By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes.
_m_ 11-22-06, 08:23 PM	By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes. that would be... interesting. incidentaly, if you have a nil ( - ) str score, do you do d* - 5 damage with a weapon?
budleiser 11-22-06, 08:36 PM	MTV just showed a pitbull that can skateboard! (My argument that animals are smarter than every D&D player makes them out to be)
clannagh 11-22-06, 11:47 PM	Sure, but you've got to have him trained for it. Picking the right feats and tricks together should ensure it actually makes sense. Of course this thread tells me I should expect to see table variation on this so multiple copies of fluffy will be a must have. Also note regardless of the animal there are some feat combinations far more potent and also some far sillier than poficiency with armor spikes. I can see a tiger with power attack and cleave or sunder, a viper with spring attack, and even a bear with improved cuddle (grapple). Animal companions just don't get very many feats to spare so the few you do get to choose will be a huge factor in defining its uniqueness. At best a 15th level druid/beastmaster gets to choose 4 feats if she has one of the base starting level pets, if she has taken one of the more powerfull pets then they will get to choose significantly fewer feats. why hust spring attack .. give it whirlwind :)
Reska 11-23-06, 11:10 AM	that would be... interesting. incidentaly, if you have a nil ( - ) str score, do you do d* - 5 damage with a weapon? No. a Nil score is not the same as a 0 score. For instance, Undead have a nil Con score, but that doesn't mean their fortitude saves are at -5.
KShaver 11-23-06, 11:46 AM	why hust spring attack .. give it whirlwind :) He's not smart enough, whirlwind requires 13 int for the chain. It also requires 5 feats, which is one more than a character can give their viper, unless there are some funky ARs pet bonuses out there.
Cynric 11-23-06, 05:43 PM	By the wording it affects any natural weapons used as secondary attacks, so yes. Now that makes it viable for my tiger. I was worried about the minus 5, but multi attack should take care of it enough.:cool:
_m_ 11-23-06, 05:58 PM	No. a Nil score is not the same as a 0 score. For instance, Undead have a nil Con score, but that doesn't mean their fortitude saves are at -5. true. but undead automatically pass any fort saves they are required to make. by the same logic, a nil score strength character would auto pass any strength test... also: can familiars have barding?
Reska 11-23-06, 06:32 PM	true. but undead automatically pass any fort saves they are required to make. by the same logic, a nil score strength character would auto pass any strength test... also: can familiars have barding? Umm, no, Undead don't automatically pass any fort saves. It is still affected by any that work on objects or is harmless. For instance a Zombie is immune to poison but affected by disintegrate. Chek page 312 of the MM under "non-abilities". As for a Familiar having barding...shrug
_m_ 11-23-06, 06:53 PM	Umm, no, Undead don't automatically pass any fort saves. It is still affected by any that work on objects or is harmless. For instance a Zombie is immune to poison but affected by disintegrate. Chek page 312 of the MM under "non-abilities". As for a Familiar having barding...shrug shrug as in dont know, shrug as in dont care, or shrug as in, it would look funny if a familiar in barding shrugged.
Cynric 11-23-06, 06:56 PM	Considering the looks I get from most GM's when I tell them my tiger wears metal barding, then I would go with shrug, looks funny:D
_m_ 11-23-06, 07:01 PM	Considering the looks I get from most GM's when I tell them my tiger wears metal barding, then I would go with shrug, looks funny:D lol. if i were to equip my 3 familiars (my cohorts, my old one, and my new one) id have a barded blink dog, a psuedodragon in tiny little armour, and a large elemental wearing ghost touch armour (because it would fall through her otherwise) though actually i think if a shadow incorporeal equips something, it becomes ethereal (i think thats from around page 156 in tome of magic)
Reska 11-23-06, 07:14 PM	shrug as in dont know, shrug as in dont care, or shrug as in, it would look funny if a familiar in barding shrugged. I think I'll go for the 4th option . shrug as in "Hey look...shiny!"
_m_ 11-23-06, 07:22 PM	I think I'll go for the 4th option . shrug as in "Hey look...shiny!" hehe. very nice. "i was going to take over the world today... but i got distracted by something shiny."