Spiked chain and karmic strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spiked chain and karmic strike [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
fghj171983
03-03-07, 03:06 AM Been thinking about trying how to maximize a spiked chain fighter that uses karmic strike and probly elusive target too because that feat just owns. I am not sure how to go about it though. I have thought about going almost straight fighter but I really hate having that glaring will save weakness. I could start mutting it out adding monk for combat reflexes or barb for rage. If i do that though it seems like I have to push alot of things farther back. I also think adding exotic weapon master would be nice but I really seem to be stretching myself thin on feats. Thoughts? Suggestions? Can this be done or is it a lost cause?
Mommy was an Orc
03-03-07, 07:56 AM There's a couple ideas in the compilation for nearly pure Fighter builds that do Karmic Strike/Elusive Target. The problem with Spiked Chain is that all three of those tend to eat up a lot of feats, even for a Fighter and Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't help...
eqpablon
03-05-07, 08:19 PM Been thinking about trying how to maximize a spiked chain fighter that uses karmic strike and probly elusive target too because that feat just owns. I am not sure how to go about it though. I have thought about going almost straight fighter but I really hate having that glaring will save weakness. I could start mutting it out adding monk for combat reflexes or barb for rage. If i do that though it seems like I have to push alot of things farther back. I also think adding exotic weapon master would be nice but I really seem to be stretching myself thin on feats. Thoughts? Suggestions? Can this be done or is it a lost cause?

My only advice is at 12th level retrain karmic for Robilars Gambit (PHB II). With Robilars Gambit you get an AoO even if your attacker misses :)
copper_wyrmling
03-05-07, 08:29 PM My only advice is at 12th level retrain karmic for Robilars Gambit (PHB II). With Robilars Gambit you get an AoO even if your attacker misses :)

Robilar's Gambit is Closed in Living Greyhawk (hmmm, I wonder why?)
eqpablon
03-05-07, 08:50 PM Robilar's Gambit is Closed in Living Greyhawk (hmmm, I wonder why?)

Yes I know Robilar is part of Living Greyhawk. I guess it does make sense that the feat named after him is not allowed; although until now I had not realized that.
fghj171983
03-06-07, 04:55 AM I am thinking about going something like this.

Human

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 8
Cha 8

1: Barb - EWP: Spiked Chain, Extra Rage
2: Ftr - P. Att
3: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip
4: Ftr - Pump Str
5: Ftr - Dodge
6: Ftr - Karmic Strike
7: Ftr - Combat Reflexes
8: Ftr - Pump Str
9: Ftr - Mobility, Elusive Target
10: Ftr
11: Ftr - Imp. Bullrush
12: Ftr - Shocktrooper
13: Ftr - Retrain Shocktrooper to reckless rage then take Shocktrooper
14: Ftr
15: Ftr - Imp Sunder, Combat Brute

Thoughts? Suggestions?
fghj171983
03-06-07, 01:48 PM Probly gonna drop shock trooper I see it in almost every build and its really dont think its needed for this one. Also I want to throw in Close Quarters Fighting and possibly defensive throw. Defensive Throw seems cool but is it effective? Thought about taking out the spiked chain but its such a good weapon. Would a guisarme work just as a well with armor spikes? Seems not being able to do any P. att dmg and only 1xstr with armor spikes is kinda lacking.

1: Barb - Extra Rage, EWP:Spiked Chain
2: Ftr - P. Att
3: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Imp Trip
4: Ftr - pump str
5: Ftr - Dodge
6: Ftr - Karmic Strike
7: Ftr - Combat Reflexes
8: Ftr - pump str
9: Ftr - Mobility, Elusive Target
10: Ftr
11: Ftr - Close Quarters Combat
12: Ftr - Imp. Unarmed Strike
13: Ftr - Wep Foc
14: Exotic Wep Master - Flurry
15: Exotic Wep Master - Exotic Reach or Trip Attack, Defensive Throw
chesspiece
03-06-07, 02:30 PM I've heard that Imp Trip is less effective in the later levels when the beasties become Huge with rediculous Str. Of course it can be retrained.

With that many fighter feats, you should look at the PHB2 Weapon Mastery feats.

If you're using a spiked chain, you should consider taking EWM Flurry sooner than level14.

I've toyed with some similar builds:
You are very close to qualifying for Dervish (retrain WP-chain for WF-Glaive or Guisarme or Greatsword). But Dervish Dance requires Slashing so no more Spiked Chain. Included with all the goodies for that class, you'd get better Will saves. Consider retraining Dodge for Expeditious Dodge - but there may be table variation with ExD & Elusive Target.

Instead of Shocktrooper, consider Bard1/Warchanter3 (need weapon focus) for Inspire Recklessness. You'd lose 1 BAB though. But Karmic Strike & Reckless is nasty!
Drezden
03-06-07, 02:45 PM Get EWM - flurry as soon as you can. I think it is level 7. It is a great ability. To get 3 attacks (4, if hasted) from level 7 on, plus AOO attacks is just nice. I would try to fit cleave in - preferably early. Cleave is awesome at low levels and is still pretty good for a reach fighter at higher levels.

Try and travel with an arcanist. You want to be Enlarged as much as possible. I play with 2 high level Spiked Chain fighters and have a low level one - it is amazing to watch an Enlarged Spiked Chain fighter with 20' reach and Combat Reflexes just control the battlefield. Enlarge will also give you +5 to trip attacks.

Daren
Gallaway
03-06-07, 06:10 PM Never discount improved disarm with reach fighters.

There will be occasions where a weapon is so nasty that even if he is prone you would prefer the BBEG does not have it. Its pretty much a guaranteed disarm against archers and wand/scroll users.
JamesMaissen
03-06-07, 11:33 PM Never discount improved disarm with reach fighters.

Just make sure that you get someone lined up to pick up the weapon disarmed in question before your victim can react. Otherwise they can just provoke an AOO (still nice), but making them actually run through spare weapons (if they have any) is the real power of the action.

-James
King Kashue
03-07-07, 01:27 AM Just make sure that you get someone lined up to pick up the weapon disarmed in question before your victim can react. Otherwise they can just provoke an AOO (still nice), but making them actually run through spare weapons (if they have any) is the real power of the action.

Really? I've always found clouting them in the head with my guisarme for 25-30 points to be quite satisfying :D
JamesMaissen
03-07-07, 11:45 AM Really? I've always found clouting them in the head with my guisarme for 25-30 points to be quite satisfying :D

Well hitting them for a little damage is, indeed, fun. But in my experience it's alot more fun to see them pull a dagger or other light weapon (if they have even that) after you've easily disarmed their two handed one.. Or the look on the poor judge's face when he finds out that his nice tricked out fighter doesn't have any weapons left.

The point being that if you are going to disarm, make it stick and then you get the most out of the action. Otherwise alot of the time all you are doing is giving an extra chance to miss them (atleast at low levels before multiple attacks).

-James
LachlarlanIII
03-07-07, 12:38 PM I've heard that Imp Trip is less effective in the later levels when the beasties become Huge with rediculous Str. Of course it can be retrained.

The real issue is that you can't trip something 2 size categories larger than yourself.

From the SRD:

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.

Which really isn't an issue because someone that builds around tripping should probably have secondary options when they can't trip their opponent.

For example, when my trip-fighter encounters something he can't trip, he just beats it do death with his flail. ;)

Also, I find tripping heavily armored opponents to be more effective than actually trying to hit them

A) You attack their touch AC.
B) You gain a +4 bonus on all other attacks if you succeed at tripping them.
Timlagor
03-07-07, 01:17 PM If you disarm them and they pick up their weapon again then you use the AoO to trip them. You then use the AoO when they stand up again to disarm them again :)
King Kashue
03-07-07, 01:34 PM If you disarm them and they pick up their weapon again then you use the AoO to disarm them. You then use the AoO when they stand up again to disarm them again :)

I think you intended to mean "trip them" instead of disarm them at the end of the first sentence...

If not, then your idea doesn't work because AoOs occur immediately prior to the event that triggers them...Same reason you can't trip someone getting up from prone, since they're prone when the AoO happens...
fghj171983
03-12-07, 07:58 AM I am thinking about cutting out Improved Trip altogther from the build. Trying to get the most out of my feats with this revamped build.

1: Barb - EWP:Spiked Chain, Extra Rage
2: Ftr - Power Attack
3: Ftr - Dodge, Combat Reflexes
4: Ftr - pump str
5: Ftr - Mobility
6: Ftr - Elusive Target
7: Ftr - Close-Quarters Fighting
8: Ftr - pump str
9: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike
10: Ftr
11: Ftr - Weapon Focus:Spiked Chain
12: EWM - Flurry, Reckless Rage, pump str
13: EWP - Exotic Reach
14: Ftr
15: Ftr - weapon spec, melee weapon mastery

Well the main questions are is Improved Trip needed? Also should I try and get Elusive Target at six and Karmic Strike at nine or vice-versa. Does Reckless Rage make the cut?
Alpha_Nerd
03-12-07, 12:18 PM Isn't Improved Trip a pre-req for something?
King Kashue
03-12-07, 04:08 PM Isn't Improved Trip a pre-req for something?

Being awesome...
JamesMaissen
03-12-07, 11:03 PM I
12: EWM - Flurry, Reckless Rage, pump str
13: EWP - Exotic Reach
Well the main questions are is Improved Trip needed? Also should I try and get Elusive Target at six and Karmic Strike at nine or vice-versa. Does Reckless Rage make the cut?

My main question is why are you waiting so long for EWM?

-James

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
fghj171983 03-03-07, 03:06 AM	Been thinking about trying how to maximize a spiked chain fighter that uses karmic strike and probly elusive target too because that feat just owns. I am not sure how to go about it though. I have thought about going almost straight fighter but I really hate having that glaring will save weakness. I could start mutting it out adding monk for combat reflexes or barb for rage. If i do that though it seems like I have to push alot of things farther back. I also think adding exotic weapon master would be nice but I really seem to be stretching myself thin on feats. Thoughts? Suggestions? Can this be done or is it a lost cause?
Mommy was an Orc 03-03-07, 07:56 AM	There's a couple ideas in the compilation for nearly pure Fighter builds that do Karmic Strike/Elusive Target. The problem with Spiked Chain is that all three of those tend to eat up a lot of feats, even for a Fighter and Melee Weapon Mastery doesn't help...
eqpablon 03-05-07, 08:19 PM	Been thinking about trying how to maximize a spiked chain fighter that uses karmic strike and probly elusive target too because that feat just owns. I am not sure how to go about it though. I have thought about going almost straight fighter but I really hate having that glaring will save weakness. I could start mutting it out adding monk for combat reflexes or barb for rage. If i do that though it seems like I have to push alot of things farther back. I also think adding exotic weapon master would be nice but I really seem to be stretching myself thin on feats. Thoughts? Suggestions? Can this be done or is it a lost cause? My only advice is at 12th level retrain karmic for Robilars Gambit (PHB II). With Robilars Gambit you get an AoO even if your attacker misses :)
copper_wyrmling 03-05-07, 08:29 PM	My only advice is at 12th level retrain karmic for Robilars Gambit (PHB II). With Robilars Gambit you get an AoO even if your attacker misses :) Robilar's Gambit is Closed in Living Greyhawk (hmmm, I wonder why?)
eqpablon 03-05-07, 08:50 PM	Robilar's Gambit is Closed in Living Greyhawk (hmmm, I wonder why?) Yes I know Robilar is part of Living Greyhawk. I guess it does make sense that the feat named after him is not allowed; although until now I had not realized that.
fghj171983 03-06-07, 04:55 AM	I am thinking about going something like this. Human Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 14 Wis 8 Cha 8 1: Barb - EWP: Spiked Chain, Extra Rage 2: Ftr - P. Att 3: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip 4: Ftr - Pump Str 5: Ftr - Dodge 6: Ftr - Karmic Strike 7: Ftr - Combat Reflexes 8: Ftr - Pump Str 9: Ftr - Mobility, Elusive Target 10: Ftr 11: Ftr - Imp. Bullrush 12: Ftr - Shocktrooper 13: Ftr - Retrain Shocktrooper to reckless rage then take Shocktrooper 14: Ftr 15: Ftr - Imp Sunder, Combat Brute Thoughts? Suggestions?
fghj171983 03-06-07, 01:48 PM	Probly gonna drop shock trooper I see it in almost every build and its really dont think its needed for this one. Also I want to throw in Close Quarters Fighting and possibly defensive throw. Defensive Throw seems cool but is it effective? Thought about taking out the spiked chain but its such a good weapon. Would a guisarme work just as a well with armor spikes? Seems not being able to do any P. att dmg and only 1xstr with armor spikes is kinda lacking. 1: Barb - Extra Rage, EWP:Spiked Chain 2: Ftr - P. Att 3: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Imp Trip 4: Ftr - pump str 5: Ftr - Dodge 6: Ftr - Karmic Strike 7: Ftr - Combat Reflexes 8: Ftr - pump str 9: Ftr - Mobility, Elusive Target 10: Ftr 11: Ftr - Close Quarters Combat 12: Ftr - Imp. Unarmed Strike 13: Ftr - Wep Foc 14: Exotic Wep Master - Flurry 15: Exotic Wep Master - Exotic Reach or Trip Attack, Defensive Throw
chesspiece 03-06-07, 02:30 PM	I've heard that Imp Trip is less effective in the later levels when the beasties become Huge with rediculous Str. Of course it can be retrained. With that many fighter feats, you should look at the PHB2 Weapon Mastery feats. If you're using a spiked chain, you should consider taking EWM Flurry sooner than level14. I've toyed with some similar builds: You are very close to qualifying for Dervish (retrain WP-chain for WF-Glaive or Guisarme or Greatsword). But Dervish Dance requires Slashing so no more Spiked Chain. Included with all the goodies for that class, you'd get better Will saves. Consider retraining Dodge for Expeditious Dodge - but there may be table variation with ExD & Elusive Target. Instead of Shocktrooper, consider Bard1/Warchanter3 (need weapon focus) for Inspire Recklessness. You'd lose 1 BAB though. But Karmic Strike & Reckless is nasty!
Drezden 03-06-07, 02:45 PM	Get EWM - flurry as soon as you can. I think it is level 7. It is a great ability. To get 3 attacks (4, if hasted) from level 7 on, plus AOO attacks is just nice. I would try to fit cleave in - preferably early. Cleave is awesome at low levels and is still pretty good for a reach fighter at higher levels. Try and travel with an arcanist. You want to be Enlarged as much as possible. I play with 2 high level Spiked Chain fighters and have a low level one - it is amazing to watch an Enlarged Spiked Chain fighter with 20' reach and Combat Reflexes just control the battlefield. Enlarge will also give you +5 to trip attacks. Daren
Gallaway 03-06-07, 06:10 PM	Never discount improved disarm with reach fighters. There will be occasions where a weapon is so nasty that even if he is prone you would prefer the BBEG does not have it. Its pretty much a guaranteed disarm against archers and wand/scroll users.
JamesMaissen 03-06-07, 11:33 PM	Never discount improved disarm with reach fighters. Just make sure that you get someone lined up to pick up the weapon disarmed in question before your victim can react. Otherwise they can just provoke an AOO (still nice), but making them actually run through spare weapons (if they have any) is the real power of the action. -James
King Kashue 03-07-07, 01:27 AM	Just make sure that you get someone lined up to pick up the weapon disarmed in question before your victim can react. Otherwise they can just provoke an AOO (still nice), but making them actually run through spare weapons (if they have any) is the real power of the action. Really? I've always found clouting them in the head with my guisarme for 25-30 points to be quite satisfying :D
JamesMaissen 03-07-07, 11:45 AM	Really? I've always found clouting them in the head with my guisarme for 25-30 points to be quite satisfying :D Well hitting them for a little damage is, indeed, fun. But in my experience it's alot more fun to see them pull a dagger or other light weapon (if they have even that) after you've easily disarmed their two handed one.. Or the look on the poor judge's face when he finds out that his nice tricked out fighter doesn't have any weapons left. The point being that if you are going to disarm, make it stick and then you get the most out of the action. Otherwise alot of the time all you are doing is giving an extra chance to miss them (atleast at low levels before multiple attacks). -James
LachlarlanIII 03-07-07, 12:38 PM	I've heard that Imp Trip is less effective in the later levels when the beasties become Huge with rediculous Str. Of course it can be retrained. The real issue is that you can't trip something 2 size categories larger than yourself. From the SRD: TRIP You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller. Which really isn't an issue because someone that builds around tripping should probably have secondary options when they can't trip their opponent. For example, when my trip-fighter encounters something he can't trip, he just beats it do death with his flail. ;) Also, I find tripping heavily armored opponents to be more effective than actually trying to hit them A) You attack their touch AC. B) You gain a +4 bonus on all other attacks if you succeed at tripping them.
Timlagor 03-07-07, 01:17 PM	If you disarm them and they pick up their weapon again then you use the AoO to trip them. You then use the AoO when they stand up again to disarm them again :)
King Kashue 03-07-07, 01:34 PM	If you disarm them and they pick up their weapon again then you use the AoO to disarm them. You then use the AoO when they stand up again to disarm them again :) I think you intended to mean "trip them" instead of disarm them at the end of the first sentence... If not, then your idea doesn't work because AoOs occur immediately prior to the event that triggers them...Same reason you can't trip someone getting up from prone, since they're prone when the AoO happens...
fghj171983 03-12-07, 07:58 AM	I am thinking about cutting out Improved Trip altogther from the build. Trying to get the most out of my feats with this revamped build. 1: Barb - EWP:Spiked Chain, Extra Rage 2: Ftr - Power Attack 3: Ftr - Dodge, Combat Reflexes 4: Ftr - pump str 5: Ftr - Mobility 6: Ftr - Elusive Target 7: Ftr - Close-Quarters Fighting 8: Ftr - pump str 9: Ftr - Combat Expertise, Karmic Strike 10: Ftr 11: Ftr - Weapon Focus:Spiked Chain 12: EWM - Flurry, Reckless Rage, pump str 13: EWP - Exotic Reach 14: Ftr 15: Ftr - weapon spec, melee weapon mastery Well the main questions are is Improved Trip needed? Also should I try and get Elusive Target at six and Karmic Strike at nine or vice-versa. Does Reckless Rage make the cut?
Alpha_Nerd 03-12-07, 12:18 PM	Isn't Improved Trip a pre-req for something?
King Kashue 03-12-07, 04:08 PM	Isn't Improved Trip a pre-req for something? Being awesome...
JamesMaissen 03-12-07, 11:03 PM	I 12: EWM - Flurry, Reckless Rage, pump str 13: EWP - Exotic Reach Well the main questions are is Improved Trip needed? Also should I try and get Elusive Target at six and Karmic Strike at nine or vice-versa. Does Reckless Rage make the cut? My main question is why are you waiting so long for EWM? -James