Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Frumpkis 07-02-07, 08:07 PM	How important do people think a high movement rate is for spiked chain users? One of my PCs is a spiked chain-wielding half-orc tank (currently Fighter 1/Monk 4). His build looks like this: L1: Fighter L2-7: Monk (picking up the free Improved Trip from Monk 6) L8: ?? L9-11: Exotic Weapon Master L12-15: Outcast Champion I would take EWM at L8 if I could, but I wouldn't have the BAB for it (EWM requires BAB +6 to enter; I'd only have BAB +5 by L7). So I have an "open" level at 8th, and I'm trying to decide between Barbarian and Fighter. Concept-wise, my character is a big friendly giant. He's lawful good, and takes it upon himself to protect those who are smaller than he is, or who are unfairly picked on because of their race or station in life - hence the levels in Outcast Champion. He goes against the ill-tempered, quickly-spurred-to-violence half-orc stereotype (I put 1 rank in Handle Animal just to reflect his connection to small creatures). Based purely on the roleplay concept I have for him, it would make more sense to take Fighter over Barbarian at 8th. However, the power-gamer/optimizer in me is lured towards Barbarian :D. There really aren't any fighter feats I'm interested in that I can't fit into his normal feat progression, so the main tactical advantage of taking a fighter level is negated. What interests me about Barbarian is not the rage, however (shocking, I know), but the fast movement. In fact, if I were to pick up the Barbarian level, I probably would make it a roleplay point NOT to use the rage. It just doesn't fit the character. No, it's the fast movement ability that attracts me. Being a spiked chain user is all about battlefield control. Currently, my half-orc wears full plate and thus has a 20' movement rate. This can be painful when I want to interpose myself between the bad guys and the casters in the party (especially if we're in difficult terrain). An extra 10' of movement, I'm thinking, especially combined with an Enlarge Person, would go a long way in improving my role as battlefield control. If combat starts when the party is at a doorway, I can effectively block the bad guys from coming out of the room at all and getting to the back of the party. So, my question is, how important do people think a high movement rate is for spiked chain users? Should I compromise my character concept a little bit by taking that Barbarian level to get the extra movement, or is it something I can reasonably pass up on?
clannagh 07-02-07, 08:59 PM	So, my question is, how important do people think a high movement rate is for spiked chain users? Should I compromise my character concept a little bit by taking that Barbarian level to get the extra movement, or is it something I can reasonably pass up on? Exactly what feats is he going to have ? The main problem with building highly effective chain fighters is they tend to run out of feats. You can bypass expertise by getting improved trip as a monk but you still need weapon focus chain for the EWM. You are also still going to be looking for combat reflexes (and potentially hold the line and deft opportunist) and power attack (and cleave) as well as maybe weapon specialisation and weapon mastery. If you are thinking of UMDing an enlarge wand you will need to burn a feat to make that reliable as well. As for the extra speed .. chain fighters tend to work best enlarged and once enlarged they have 20' reach so personally I dont think an extra 10' movement is here or there. Also remember the barbarian speed doesnt work in full plate.
dragon2007 07-03-07, 12:30 AM	If you are building a tripper, remember what tripping is - a Strength check. You don't need the 10' extra movement from the Barbarian level, but your character *does* need the extra Strength from Barbarian Rage since there are very few ways in which to improve your character's ability to trip. Additionally, you should consider selecting the Extra Rage feat as well.
Frumpkis 07-03-07, 04:26 AM	Exactly what feats is he going to have ? The main problem with building highly effective chain fighters is they tend to run out of feats. You can bypass expertise by getting improved trip as a monk but you still need weapon focus chain for the EWM. You are also still going to be looking for combat reflexes (and potentially hold the line and deft opportunist) and power attack (and cleave) as well as maybe weapon specialisation and weapon mastery. If you are thinking of UMDing an enlarge wand you will need to burn a feat to make that reliable as well. Hehe, I guess I should've written up his build more fully. Hafez ibn Gunt LG half-orc STR 19 (4th-lvl bump) DEX 14 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 8 CHA 10 (all stat bumps will be going into STR) 1.) Fighter 1 - Exotic weapon proficiency (spiked chain), Quick draw 2.) Monk 1 - Improved unarmed strike, Improved Grapple 3.) Monk 2 - Combat reflexes, Power attack 4.) Monk 3 5.) Monk 4 6.) Monk 5 - Weapon focus (spiked chain) 7.) Monk 6 - Improved trip 8.) ?? (either Barbarian or Fighter) 9.) Exotic Weapon Master 1 - Flurry of strikes, Hold the Line 10.) EWM 2 - Trip attack 11.) EWM 3 - Exotic reach 12.) Outcast Champion 1 - Aura of confidence, Lighting reflexes 13.) OC 2 - Avenging strike 14.) OC 3 - Desperate fury 15.) OC 4 - Teamwork, Prone attack Weapons: +1 silver spiked chain, cold iron spiked chain, adamantine heavy flail, composite longbow (+4 Str) Armour: full plate (will be buying mithral plate once I have the $ saved up) I have Armbands of Might, which add +2 to Str checks (and thus trip checks), plus a wand of Enlarge Person which I hand out to arcane casters to use on me. I also have Ghostblight capsules on all my weapons. As for the extra speed .. chain fighters tend to work best enlarged and once enlarged they have 20' reach so personally I dont think an extra 10' movement is here or there. Also remember the barbarian speed doesnt work in full plate. My next purchases will be a Belt of Giant Strength and mithral full plate. The mithral full plate will count as medium armour, allowing the barbarian extra movement to work if I go that route.
Frumpkis 07-03-07, 04:32 AM	If you are building a tripper, remember what tripping is - a Strength check. You don't need the 10' extra movement from the Barbarian level, but your character *does* need the extra Strength from Barbarian Rage since there are very few ways in which to improve your character's ability to trip. Additionally, you should consider selecting the Extra Rage feat as well. Yeah, I realize that not going the barbarian rage route is suboptimal, but it's a roleplaying decision I can live with. And my Armbands of Might will help to mitigate the lack of barbarian rage somewhat.
Southernskies 07-03-07, 06:22 AM	You do know you're suffering an xp penalty from 4th level onwards for your entire career?
MatteBlack 07-03-07, 10:28 AM	I'd say go with the speed. Few things in the game are better to have than it. The no-rage RP could be something you'll enjoy and can't hurt to have as that last ditch resource. As a bararian you'll also get a few extra skill points in some skills fighters don't get. Overall, I'd say reach fighters would need the speed less than non-reach fighters since the reach may extend your speed in most cases.
Efekjek 07-03-07, 12:08 PM	I currently have a human Fighter 1/Monk 5 wielding a spiked chain, so we are probably very similar in concept. I would've gone Half-Orc as well were it not for the exp/gold penalty starting at lvl 4. The fast movement I think is largely up to the individual. 20' of movement really sucks in my opinion, which is why I wear mithral breastplate instead of fullplate. I think it's up to you. Personally, I don't have barbarian levels because I think switching alignments is cheesy. I am also going Monk 6 for the trip, and then going elsewhere. My 8th level will be pious templar, which might work for you as well. Since the damage on a spiked chain is not the best, I'm going for weapon spec and melee weapon mastery through pious templar, and the mettle synergizes nicely with the monk saves. Definately getting spiked chain flurry at 9, though!
Loanarn 07-03-07, 03:45 PM	I thought barbarians had to be chaotic and monks had to be lawful? I never heard of a GM just letting you switch from lawful to chaotic without a really good roleplay reason.
bitznarf 07-03-07, 03:48 PM	I thought barbarians had to be chaotic and monks had to be lawful? I never heard of a GM just letting you switch from lawful to chaotic without a really good roleplay reason. Barbarians have to be non-lawful or they lose Rage (for ever, which is not a concern here), monks have to be lawful. And in LG alignment switches are pretty much up to the player. A barbarian who becomes lawful loses the ability to rage and cannot gain more levels as a barbarian. He retains all the other benefits of the class (damage reduction, fast movement, trap sense, and uncanny dodge). A monk who becomes nonlawful cannot gain new levels as a monk but retains all monk abilities. Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.
clannagh 07-03-07, 07:34 PM	there are alternate ways of getting speed btw .. including: - boots of striding and springing from the DMG - level of cleric with celerity domain Wisdom 8 would prevent him casting spells as a cleric but he would gain access to wands. A cleric of Zuoken would give Celerity plus either strength once a day for +1 to a trip or war for weapon focus unarmed strike for free. A cleric of Fhlarghan could have celerity plus pick up travel domain and the freedom of movement ability once a day. A cleric of Istus or Olidimarra could get the luck domain and a reroll. Alternatively get the boots and go with a level of cleric of Kord for competition domain and +1 to all opposed checks (including trips).
control freak 07-03-07, 10:50 PM	heres a question if you have 2 spiked chains and combat reflexes.... can you make 2 attacks of oppertuneity?
copper_wyrmling 07-03-07, 11:19 PM	heres a question if you have 2 spiked chains and combat reflexes.... can you make 2 attacks of oppertuneity? You can only make one AoO per opportunity unless you have the Double Hit feat (Miniatures' Handbook iirc). Spiked chain is a two-handed weapon, so you can't normally wield two of them at once: you could dual-wield undersized spiked chains but they wouldn't give you reach, so not much point.
control freak 07-03-07, 11:34 PM	incorrect on one point (but thanks for the feat clerification) you get reach with small spiked chains due to one factor, any reach whepon of any kind doubles the creatures natural reach (other wise i would monkey grip the heck out of a SC)
clannagh 07-03-07, 11:43 PM	Reach Weapons Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away. Note the reference to "appropriate size". Its also clarified in the FAQ. If small spiked chains gave reach all the chain trippers around the place would be running around with heavy shields and small spiked chains.
control freak 07-03-07, 11:51 PM	so does monkey grip not extend it to 15 ft too? or is it just reduced by the size?
clannagh 07-03-07, 11:53 PM	Here is the FAQ How do reach weapons work if they are of a different size than the creature wielding them? Say, an ogre wielding a Small or Medium glaive, or a human with the Monkey Grip feat wielding a Large ranseur? What is the reach for each situation? A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach. An ogre (Large) wielding a Medium or smaller reach weapon gains no reach from the weapon, and could thus attack foes either 5 feet or 10 feet distant (as normal for a Large creature wielding a non-reach weapon). A human (Medium) wielding a Large or larger reach weapon could attack a creature 10 feet away (but no further), and could not use the weapon to attack a creature 5 feet away (as normal for a Medium creature wielding a reach weapon). A human wielding a Small reach weapon would gain no reach from the weapon. The Player’s Handbook isn’t as clear on this as it could be, although an example of reach in action on page 113 in the Player’s Handbook provides pretty strong support: “A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away . . .” [italics added]. While this reference doesn’t mention the ability to wield a reach weapon larger than the appropriate size, allowing such a weapon to grant reach to its wielder is a reasonable extension of the spirit and intent of the rule. .
copper_wyrmling 07-03-07, 11:57 PM	The quote from the FAQ (it's explained further with examples, but this is the key text) is: "A reach weapon doubles its wielder’s natural reach, but only if the weapon is at least of an appropriate size for the wielder. Wielding a “too-small” reach weapon grants no reach." So a medium creature using a medium spiked chain, or a large spiked chain with Monkey Grip, has 10ft reach. A medium creature using a small spiked chain has 5ft reach.
control freak 07-03-07, 11:58 PM	by that FAQ (thank you very much btw i didnt know about the reach thing) EDIT (posted at same time as previous post) thanks
clannagh 07-04-07, 12:07 AM	Basically all monkey grip gives you is a large chains damage but you get the same reach and still get the -2 penalty to hit. When your enlarged I would assume the large chain then enlarges as well and you get a huge spiked chain damage... but its still unlikely to be worth burning an entire feat to get extra dice damage in a reach/trip build. Note that monkey grip still doesnt allow you go more than one step from your current size ... so no silliness like large creatures swinging gargantuan chains at a -4 penalty.
control freak 07-04-07, 12:15 AM	oh i know i never use monkey grip, id rather go for improved trip+ power attack :D its evil and fun something like Barb1: ERage, EWP SC ftr 1: power attack ftr 2: Combat experties, improved trip ftr 3: ftr 4: cleave ftr 5: whepon focus SC EWM 1: flurry of blows basicaly you improve trip+ power attack every thing (yes its a dead feat but its all good)
Frumpkis 07-04-07, 01:37 AM	Barbarians have to be non-lawful or they lose Rage (for ever, which is not a concern here), monks have to be lawful. And in LG alignment switches are pretty much up to the player. If I do take the Barbarian level, I'd be switching his alignment from LG to NG. While some might see this as cheesy, I do have a fairly good in-character angle for this. When he first started out as a lowly L1 adventurer, Hafez was naive and thought the best of people. He thought that the people in charge are in charge because they are wise enough for the job, and so he never questioned those in power. He's slowly learning that, sometimes, those in power don't have the best interests of their subjects at heart, so you need to be...."flexible" in sticking with the law.
Frumpkis 07-04-07, 01:43 AM	there are alternate ways of getting speed btw .. including: - boots of striding and springing from the DMG - level of cleric with celerity domain Wisdom 8 would prevent him casting spells as a cleric but he would gain access to wands. A cleric of Zuoken would give Celerity plus either strength once a day for +1 to a trip or war for weapon focus unarmed strike for free. A cleric of Fhlarghan could have celerity plus pick up travel domain and the freedom of movement ability once a day. A cleric of Istus or Olidimarra could get the luck domain and a reroll. Alternatively get the boots and go with a level of cleric of Kord for competition domain and +1 to all opposed checks (including trips). My character is a Zeif PC and already worships Al'Akbar. Mechanics-wise, his BAB is already lagging because of the monk levels, so I'm hesistant to slow it down even more by taking a level in cleric. As for the Boots of Striding/Springing suggestion - that would mean giving up Boots of Speed. :P EDIT: still, I'm very much appreciative of all the suggestions, folks, so please keep 'em coming. At the very least, they give me food for thought.
clannagh 07-04-07, 04:04 AM	My character is a Zeif PC and already worships Al'Akbar. Mechanics-wise, his BAB is already lagging because of the monk levels, so I'm hesistant to slow it down even more by taking a level in cleric. As for the Boots of Striding/Springing suggestion - that would mean giving up Boots of Speed. :P EDIT: still, I'm very much appreciative of all the suggestions, folks, so please keep 'em coming. At the very least, they give me food for thought. I recall seeing Mithral Full Plate of Speed access on an AR recently but it may not have been a core mod. Still it does come up.