Post/Author/DateTime	Post
monodan 06-04-07, 10:32 AM	This is my first post on this board so please excuse me if it is not formatted well. I am rejoining the RPGA after a long hiatus (recently switched jobs and I finally found another group I like playing with). So I wanted to make a high AC fighter build for my group. I am thinking something like this... Human S 17 D 13 C 16 I 8 W 8 C 8 Progression 1-6 fighter, 7-8 Occult slayer, 9-15 fighter Feats: 1 W. focus spiked shield, imp shield bash, shield specialization 2. power attack 3. imp initiative 4. w. focus armor spikes 6. blood spike charger, shield ward ( Level 7-8 Occult slayer) 9. close quarters fighting 10. armor optimization 12. imp armor optimization, armor specialization 14. W. specialization (shield) 15. Master Weapon spec The concept here is a shield fighter. Two hand the spiked shield while shield bashing to his hearts content. Use power attack and blood spike charger for damage. The point of the Occult slayer dip is so the character can survive past the first round of combat against a caster. Please help with optimization. Couple things I'm not sure about, like the stats. Also, should I bother with blood spiked charger? A friend told me this was a good way to improve damage, but I dont really see it. If I dropped blood spike and w. focus (armor spikes) I could get other feats much sooner. Thanks in advance.
monodan 06-04-07, 10:49 AM	If I bumped my int and went combat expertise instead of power attack, I would look like this... S 16 D 10 C 16 I 14 W 8 C 8 Feats: 1 W. focus spiked shield, imp shield bash, shield specialization 2. combat expertise 3. imp initiative 4. close quarters fighting 6. W. specialization (shield), shield ward ( Level 7-8 Occult slayer) 9. armor optimization 12. armor specialization, imp armor optimization 14. Master Weapon spec I get specialization earlier so I actually deal some damage, and with shield ward and close quarter fighting large grapplers and touch attacks wont keep me up at night. Thoughts?
TWG_Prometheus 06-04-07, 10:55 AM	Mostly to maintain focus in the build, I'd drop the Blood Spike Charger feat and its prerequisites. Anything that makes you put off Weapon Specialization at Fighter 4 and Melee Weapon Mastery by 9 better be something fantastic.... Also, I don't recognize some of your feat names. I'd go something more like: 1. Weapon Focus(Spiked Shield), Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization 2. Power Attack 3. Improved Initiative 4. Weapon Specialization(Spiked Shield) 6. Shield Ward, Close-Quarters Combat 9. Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing) Consider some alternatives to Occult Slayer for your saving throw problems. After the first 6 levels, you have tons of reasonable options. Starting some Cleric advancement to be a backup healer/buffer with Practised Spellcaster or taking levels in Knight or Monk both come to mind easily. Was the 13 Dexterity to help with Blood Spike Charger? I'd recommend dropping the 17 Strength as well...those points could easily go into Intelligence or Wisdom to help with some of your weak spots. Take a look at Shield Charge from Complete Warrior. Edit: Since you're taking a higher Int build into consideration now, Improved Trip with Shield Charge is a great combo for a Fighter with Improved Initiative. Fitting all of that into a build without slowing your Weapon Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery progression is harder and may require sacrificing Shield Ward. Proceed at your own discretion.
_metz_ 06-04-07, 10:57 AM	Thou Shalt not take uneven levels of Fighter...
TWG_Prometheus 06-04-07, 11:15 AM	The more I think about this, the more I like the idea of Fighter 6 / Cleric 9. Put at least one of the Cleric levels in by level 6 (probably at 5) in order to allow you to take Practised Spellcaster at 6th level to avoid messing up your Melee Weapon Mastery progression. Don't think of the character as a full Cleric though. The spellcasting is there for some neat tricks, not to replace your primary combat tactic. (Fighter 6 / Cleric 9 instead of Fighter 4 / Cleric 11 is to obtain Melee Weapon Mastery by 9th. Otherwise, you're putting it off until 12th.)
monodan 06-04-07, 12:00 PM	Don't think of the character as a full Cleric though. The spellcasting is there for some neat tricks, not to replace your primary combat tactic. (Fighter 6 / Cleric 9 instead of Fighter 4 / Cleric 11 is to obtain Melee Weapon Mastery by 9th. Otherwise, you're putting it off until 12th.) I can definitely appreciate the cleric levels, and it is definitely worth sacrificing the BAB for the abilities cleric grants me. What are some of the tricks you had in mind? I know there are some good ways to make turn undead useful for melee but I'm not sure what the feats are.For domains I imagine some combination of Luck, War, or Destruction. Progression would be some permutation of: 1-4 Fighter, 5 Cleric, 6-7 fighter, 8-15 cleric 1. Weapon Focus(Spiked Shield), Improved Shield Bash, Shield Specialization 2. Power Attack 3. Close Quarters 4. Weapon Specialization(Spiked Shield) 6. Shield Ward, Practiced spellcasting 8. Heavy Armor Optimization? 9. Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing) 12. Craft or something? Again, thank you for you patience. A few minutes of your time is helping me a ton.
TWG_Prometheus 06-04-07, 02:56 PM	I didn't have any particular Cleric tricks in mind...just standard Battle Cleric fare really. One Lesser Vigor that you can recur by using Pearls of Power I for party endurance/out-of-combat healing, Divine Favor when you're at caster level 6 or higher works fine, Bless, Shield of Faith, Aid, Resist Energy...whatever the situation requires. The only thing you'd have to do to make the Cleric part of the build click is start off with probably a base 14 Wisdom, level bump it once at 12th and avoid spells that allow saving throws like the plague. You won't even need a Wisdom stat booster. Anything that is powered by caster level, you'll be OK at due to Practised Spellcaster, but not great. Using the feats that convert turning ability into battle power requires Charisma, and I don't think your build will want to support it. I recommend leaving the turning facet of the character as dead weight since it would take too many resources to gain any real benefit from it. Others might have a different opinion. Don't take the War domain. You won't find a deity with Spiked Shield as their favored weapon, making the whole thing rather pointless. Destruction always has a lot going for it however, as does Competition, Celerity, Travel, Luck, and Strength. For a more well-rounded approach, you could also consider Protection, Knowledge, Healing, Glory, or Destiny. Something like this would be a reasonable way to go: Human Str 16, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8 1st - Cleric 1 - Shield Specialization(Heavy Shield), Power Attack 2nd - Cleric 2 3rd - Cleric 3 - Craft Wondrous Item 4th - Fighter 1 - Improved Shield Bash 5th - Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus(Heavy Spiked Shield) 6th - Fighter 3 - Practised Spellcaster(Cleric) 7th - Fighter 4 - Weapon Specialization(Heavy Spiked Shield) 8th - Fighter 5 9th - Fighter 6 - Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing), Shield Ward You can probably do better than straight Cleric after 9th level, but you'd be hard pressed to mess the build up after that. Getting Craft Wondrous Item at 3rd level is a massive cash-saver. Putting your Cleric levels first also gets you the ability to cast Bull's Strength right away, and that's a huge bonus in the early APLs. Going Cleric first might cost you an identity crisis when you switch over to Fighter progression, but if you let the players in the area know that you're intending to make a Cleric-lite Heavy Fighter from the start, things ought to go fine. No one minds having their tank cast Lesser Vigor on them.
monodan 06-04-07, 04:29 PM	Wow, I worked out the progression again before seeing what you posted, and the two are almost identical. I changed the order a little, but all the same stuff. I couldnt have done it without you. Concept: Primary tank who uses his spiked shield as his primary weapon with a tower shield in off hand for cover bonus. Good saves from cleric levels coupled with healing spells means he is hard to take out of the fight Deity: Fharlaghn Domains: Travel Luck Race: HUman 1. Cleric 1: Shield Specialization(Heavy), Improved Shield bash 2. Cleric 2: 3. Cleric 3: CWI 4. Cleric 3/Fighter1: Power Attack 5. Cleric 3/Fighter2: Weapon Focus 6. Cleric 3/Fighter3: Practised Spellcaster 7. Cleric 3/Fighter4: Weapons Specialization (Spiked Shield) 8. Cleric 3/Fighter5: 9. Cleric 3/Fighter6: Melee Weapon Mastery(Piercing), Shield Ward Cleric or casting prestige the rest Pros: Disturbingly high AC coupled with spellcasting and decent damage output. Cons: Lacking Close Quarter Fighting or Combat Expertise will take its toll against nasty encounters AC: 10 + 4 Cover from tower shield + 2 shield + 1 shield spec + 9 armor = 26 without magic AC: 10 + 2 shield + 1 shield spec + 9 armor = 22 when he drops the tower shield and two hands the heavy shield
TWG_Prometheus 06-04-07, 04:48 PM	You're not proficient with a Shield as a weapon until you can get your first level of Fighter. That's why I moved Improved Shield Bash to level 4. I'd also drop the notion of using a Tower Shield with a normal Shield. You either get a Shield bonus (which doesn't stack with your other shield's bonus, uses up a hand and costs you a -2 penalty on all attacks) or you get total cover. There's no provision anywhere in the rules for getting a normal -4 cover bonus from a Tower Shield, at least not that I know of. Even if I'm wrong and the trick works, you'll mostly just tick off your DMs with it...
codyknotts 06-05-07, 04:06 PM	Given that Blood Spike Charger doubles STRENGTH not the bonus (please don't flame, just reading rule as written without interpertation), then it is quite powerful for damage output and makes the character stronger than people realize.
TWG_Prometheus 06-05-07, 04:20 PM	If you honestly think that you can find a DM who will allow that, you're more than welcome to splurge feats into it.
Eric Anondson 06-05-07, 04:28 PM	Given that Blood Spike Charger doubles STRENGTH not the bonus (please don't flame, just reading rule as written without interpertation)Expect table variation.
codyknotts 06-05-07, 04:37 PM	Again, as stated where is the arguement when the rule clearly states it. Table variation happens in this case because: 1. The DM doesn't like it 2. The DM thinks it is not as written 3. The DM wants it not be the case As someone that DM's I find it crazy that: Flyers can be tripped, if they have wings, but not if they can't. (Prone in the air?) No they fall 150 feet. Still silly, silly I don't personally like the Trip rules as a whole, or the grapple rules. This is not like the Arcane Heirphont arguement that states two different cases. There is no arguement to the contray BUT the powerful "I don't THINK that is what they meant" or that is "Not what I want it to be as a DM" BTW Spiked chains are crazy also, never used as a weapon. But hey this is fantasy is the arguement all the time. In other words, I don't like it, but that is how the rule is written. There is no side bar, table or anything else to disagree with it as written.