| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| jhorred02-20-07, 08:46 PM | I've a few spirited charge builds that do a considerable amount of damage on a charge. I've not seen how they generate so much damage. Can someone run the basics by me? Thanks. |
| bitznarf02-20-07, 09:21 PM | The big cheese comes from Shock Trooper and Heedless Charge. What it does is let you drop your AC for damage bonus instead of attack roll for damage bonus when power attacking on a charge (so long as you power attack for at least 5). When combined with spirited charge it gets pretty sick: By level 9 I would consider this to be reasonable (and on the low side at that) +9 bab, 18 Str Gives you this when power attacking for full on a spirited charge with a 2 handed lance: 1d8 base weapon damage +6 strength bonus +1 magic weapon +18 power attack x3 spirited charge = 3d8+75 at +16 to hit ( +9 BAB, +4 Str, +1 Enhancement, +2 charge ) minimum (and -11 to AC) I think I got those numbers right. |
| Gallaway02-20-07, 10:20 PM | The big cheese comes from Shock Trooper and Heedless Charge. What it does is let you drop your AC for damage bonus instead of attack roll for damage bonus when power attacking on a charge (so long as you power attack for at least 5). When combined with spirited charge it gets pretty sick: By level 9 I would consider this to be reasonable (and on the low side at that) +9 bab, 18 Str Gives you this when power attacking for full on a spirited charge with a 2 handed lance: 1d8 base weapon damage +6 strength bonus +1 magic weapon +18 power attack x3 spirited charge = 3d8+75 at +16 to hit ( +9 BAB, +4 Str, +1 Enhancement, +2 charge ) minimum (and -11 to AC) I think I got those numbers right. Spirited charge build always benefit more from straight enhancements to the lance rather than dice damage. An alternative to the above is to take levels of paladin for smite. Also remember the crit in the example above would be 5d8 +125 or 6d8+150 with riding boots. 2 levels of cavalier will let you do 4X lance damage on the charge once a day. |
| Japangirl02-20-07, 10:31 PM | Shock Trooper doesn't actually work with ride-by attacks. If you charge and then stop, it works, because it says you drop your AC at the *end* of a charge. If you ride-by, you aren't ending the charge when you hit someone, so your PA needs to come from your BAB instead of your AC. I feel this needs to be said loud and clear, because a lot of people misuse the feat and I'm tired of it. |
| paigeoliver02-21-07, 02:51 AM | It is also quite possible to come up with some charge builds that do nasty damage constantly at LOWER levels, as many times per day as they want, without even using power attack. STR 18 CHA 15 (bump to 16 at 4th). You have 4 points left, put them all in CON. Now you are going to want to be a Marshall 1/Barbarian 1 at minimum (charge aura). By 3rd level you should have a +1 lance and spirited charge. You should take another marshall level at level 2 and take the melee attack aura to offset the 1 BAB you lost from the first marshall level. After that you should consider 4 levels of fighter for weapon spec. 3rd level your normal charge is 3d8+27, your raging charge is 3d8+36. At 4th level you buy str gloves and bump CHA. Charge is now 3d8+33 / 3d8+42 5th level you buy charisma cloak. Charge is now 3d8+36 / 3d8+45 6th level upgrade the lance to +2. Charge is now 3d8+39 / 3d8+48 7th level you get weapon spec. Charge is now 3d8+45 / 3d8+54 8th level bump str, sell STR gloves for belt +4. Charge is now 3d8+51 / 3d8+60 I am not even using power attack here and I am bumping up against those same damage numbers, and the hit bonuses are much better. +16 to hit when you only have one attack and are going to end up with an AC of like 4 just isn't going to cut it at APL 9. At +16 to hit you are going to miss too often, and missing can mean a dead charger. This basic (customizable) build is rolling at +23 to hit at that same level, for nearly the same damage, and won't come off the charge with an AC that is a negative number. I have been playing a variation on this basic build for a while now (I didn't go for the weapon spec), she is up to 6th level now after only 3 deaths. |
| Gwumph02-21-07, 02:53 AM | Well Japangirl Thats an opinion Another opinion would be that Ride-by-attack is a "Charge Action" and there for the "end" of your charge would be where you stop your mount. Ride by attack merely allows you to make an attack in the movement faze of a charge action. Another way to look at it is that if you have a minus 2 to your AC at the end of a Spirited Charge then it stands to reason that the other negatives to your AC (heedless charge) would also apply. Japangirl not razzing, just discuss'en :D Cheers Gwumph |
| evilaustintom02-21-07, 10:26 AM | Quick question - what book is heedless charge out of? What are the benefits of that feat? Oh, never mind. I remember...it is one of the functions of the Shock Trooper feat. Tom Thowe |
| bitznarf02-21-07, 10:56 AM | Shock Trooper doesn't actually work with ride-by attacks. If you charge and then stop, it works, because it says you drop your AC at the *end* of a charge. If you ride-by, you aren't ending the charge when you hit someone, so your PA needs to come from your BAB instead of your AC. I feel this needs to be said loud and clear, because a lot of people misuse the feat and I'm tired of it. This thread has alot of the debate about this hashed out already for those who care to read through the whole thing: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Infinite_Monkeys/message/37586 Basically what it boils down to is that in the text of Ride by Attack a mounted attacker is definitely charging (in this situation), makes the charge attack, then continues moving. When you are mounted and use the charge action, you may move and attack as if with a standard charge and then move again (continuing the straight line of the charge) |
| KarmaInferno02-21-07, 12:50 PM | One variation that is just evil is the ethereal charger. Get some means of turning yourself ethereal, and carry a ghost touch lance. Most obstacles will no longer block your charge lane, including PCs, plus most opponents cannot strike back so you can sacrifice as much AC and other defenses as you wish. Works even better with a nimble flying mount. Technically this is good for ANY melee character, but chargers benefit a lot from not having to worry about terrain and people. -karma |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-21-07, 01:08 PM | Here's something I just slapped together: Race:Human Alignment: STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-12 (4) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Ranger)Track, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge Lv2(Ranger)Two-Weapon Fighting Lv3(Ranger)Endurance, Skill Focus (Handle Animal) Lv4(Ranger)+1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Power Attack Lv6(Beastmaster)Ride-By Attack Lv7(Wild Plains Outrider) Lv8(Wild Plains Outrider)+1 STR Lv9(Wild Plains Outrider)Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Lv10(Ranger) Lv11(Ranger)Two-Weapon Pounce Lv12(Barbarian)Extra Rage, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter)Feat Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter)Feat, Feat Two-Weapon Pounce with Lances on a Spirited Charge, as well as having a rhino mount that gets double damage on a charge too. |
| Qworg02-21-07, 04:40 PM | Be a halfling, ride everywhere. Wield your lance two-handed. Use just PHB feats, be spectacular. =) The big damage in the build comes from abusing the PA 2x to damage and the Spirited Charge 3x to damage. Any amount of damage you sacrifice for PA is multiplied by 6. Any amount of damage you get from bonuses (not dice) is multiplied by 3 - smite, weapon enhancement, weapon specialization. This multiplier increases with spells and prestige classes - Cavalier can move you up to 4x a certain number of times a day and Rhino Rush gives you another multiplier. |
| UMiskatonic02-21-07, 09:41 PM | Yeah, my paladin does ok with normal damage. However, on a charge, I've got a 6:1 return on a power attack, and both divine might (+5) and smite evil (+8) are tripled. That's +39 more damage. If I power attack for three, I'm still usually at full bab, since the +2 charging and +1 higher ground benefits offset the power attack. Against an evil opponent, I can power attack my smite benefits too. And I'm not even trying that hard. Rhino's rush, Marshal auras, Riding boots, cavalier levels can all significantly boost damage. |
| bhale18702-21-07, 10:35 PM | Here's something I just slapped together: Race:Human Alignment: STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-12 (4) CHA-10 (2) Lv1(Ranger)Track, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge Lv2(Ranger)Two-Weapon Fighting Lv3(Ranger)Endurance, Skill Focus (Handle Animal) Lv4(Ranger)+1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Power Attack Lv6(Beastmaster)Ride-By Attack Lv7(Wild Plains Outrider) Lv8(Wild Plains Outrider)+1 STR Lv9(Wild Plains Outrider)Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting Lv10(Ranger) Lv11(Ranger)Two-Weapon Pounce Lv12(Barbarian)Extra Rage, +1 STR Lv13(Fighter)Feat Lv14(Fighter) Lv15(Fighter)Feat, Feat Two-Weapon Pounce with Lances on a Spirited Charge, as well as having a rhino mount that gets double damage on a charge too. Ride by attack is a pre-req for Spirited charge, the feats still work out just need to switch the levels you take those feats. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-21-07, 11:29 PM | Ride by attack is a pre-req for Spirited charge, the feats still work out just need to switch the levels you take those feats. Heh, whoops, guess I pasted them in the wrong order... |
| RLWilde02-22-07, 02:23 AM | I must say, this thread has me a bit depressed. Since using a mounted lance two-handed feels unnatural to me, my 5th level fighter only does 3d8 + 33 on a full Power Attack, and that drops his attack bonus to only +7 (counting the +2 for charge). |
| Gwumph02-22-07, 03:08 AM | yeap the only way to make full use of spirited charge it to use a lance 2-handed. As a 5th lv pc my mounted halfling with 14 str does 42+3d6 points of damage (which means I often hit the crucial 50 points, roll save vs die!!) |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 03:37 AM | yeap the only way to make full use of spirited charge it to use a lance 2-handed. As a 5th lv pc my mounted halfling with 14 str does 42+3d6 points of damage (which means I often hit the crucial 50 points, roll save vs die!!) One 2 handed lance is better than one 1 handed lance, but two 1 handed lances are far better than one 2 handed lance, with 2 weapon pounce.... |
| Puggle Halfwine02-22-07, 04:18 AM | One 2 handed lance is better than one 1 handed lance, but two 1 handed lances are far better than one 2 handed lance, with 2 weapon pounce.... Well, is it? I thought about this and came to the conclusion it might add about ~+5 damage (one additional dice), but it's burning a feat and comes with a -4 to hit on both attacks... there's far better ways to increase your spirited charge damage than that! |
| paigeoliver02-22-07, 06:15 AM | If you dislike the visual of two-handing a lance then just start visualizing it differently. Instead of imagining your guy somehow holding the sucker in two hands, visualize him using that extra hand to hold himself tight onto the horse or something. |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-22-07, 09:31 AM | Well, is it? I thought about this and came to the conclusion it might add about ~+5 damage (one additional dice), but it's burning a feat and comes with a -4 to hit on both attacks... there's far better ways to increase your spirited charge damage than that! All depends on how many sources of extra damage you have. For instance, if you have divine might, and 14 CHA, you get 6 extra damage out of it, as well as 3d8 base extra from the extra lance. STR and Power Attack damage remain the same, though you get more out of Armbands of Might with 2 lances... |
| RLWilde02-22-07, 10:18 PM | If you dislike the visual of two-handing a lance then just start visualizing it differently. Instead of imagining your guy somehow holding the sucker in two hands, visualize him using that extra hand to hold himself tight onto the horse or something. Sorry, just can't do it... and I'm not sure how using the hand to hold on to the horse would affect damage, anyway. I can't recall ever reading a book or seeing a movie where people routinely (or ever) used a lance two-handed, and I still think of D&D as more of an RPG than a game like Car Wars or Battletech. :D |
| King Kashue02-22-07, 10:45 PM | One variation that is just evil is the ethereal charger. Get some means of turning yourself ethereal, and carry a ghost touch lance. Most obstacles will no longer block your charge lane, including PCs, plus most opponents cannot strike back so you can sacrifice as much AC and other defenses as you wish. Works even better with a nimble flying mount. Technically this is good for ANY melee character, but chargers benefit a lot from not having to worry about terrain and people. -karma Except Ghost Touch hits incorporeal, not ethereal. There's a difference. An ethereal ghost touch lance will pass right through a material object. If you wanted to do that, you'd need a force weapon enchant from Arms & Equipment (which is a heftier +3 priced enchant). |
| King Kashue02-22-07, 10:52 PM | The one thing that's never discussed in cavalry builds is that the character is just an underpowered fighter 3/4 of the time :D (and that's actually being generous) Seriously, the big charge numbers are so pretty that people forget that it's no more than every 4 or 5 fights that the terrain and situation allows people to charge, and it's not even every turn in that fight where the character will get to charge. And even when they do, it's just one attack. Who cares if a 12th level Cavalry build can do 120 points on their charge? A 12th level power attacking two hander under haste (which is up for most fights and does nothing for the mounted fellow) can come close to that (with the really broken ones exceeding it), and they can do it every round, every fight. All that said, people should play the character they want, I'll never say otherwise (though there is a minimum level of effectiveness you need to not be a burden on the other players), but I always find it interesting that it's never mentioned how truly limited they are in utility. |
| Japangirl02-22-07, 11:40 PM | Small size chargers are a lot more likely to be able to charge than medium ones. A halfling or gnome on a riding dog can even charge indoors, and the dog is often allowed into places a large mount (horse or something else) can't go. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 12:02 AM | Too Right JapanGirl Back at christmas time, I had my best Small Charger Day ever. is was an APL-6 and I had a Lv 5 halfling charger. It was a Demon Mod and my Halfling killed 7 out of 9 baddies we fought, including 3 that were in a bar. a couple of things helped. 1. Medium mount, My mount was never squeezed, so charging was easier. 2. Spirited charge, if thing were to tight for a lance, I could always pull out my great axe and do shorter charges. 3. Horseshoe's of Zephyr, terrain was no longer a problem, so I could run out onto lakes to get better charging lanes. My parties strategy has evolved to this. Send up the tank (AC 28 or something like that) engage and hold the BBEG in place. If possible charger sets up ride by attack, if not charge-withdraw-charge Also haste it totally helpful for a charger, What I would give for an extra 30ft of movement. Also some chargers would have the ability at that level to do a single move and a full attack. So 4 rounds of combat would look like this with haste for a charger. Charge - Att/Att/Att/move 80ft - Charge - Att/Att/Att/move 80ft |
| paigeoliver02-23-07, 12:07 AM | It depends on how you build your charger. The Tunnel riding feat, a good understanding of he charge rules and the jumping rules can make for a charger who can be used way more often. Flying mounts also really help as well. Tunnel riding AND a flying mount makes for a really effective charge character. |
| jhorred02-23-07, 12:07 AM | Small size chargers are a lot more likely to be able to charge than medium ones. A halfling or gnome on a riding dog can even charge indoors, and the dog is often allowed into places a large mount (horse or something else) can't go. :plotting: why do you think I asked..... ;) I'm strongly considering building a Halfling Paladin on a Ridingh Dog for my Greyhawk character. I wanted to see how the other chargers got their damage so hi. |
| paigeoliver02-23-07, 12:10 AM | The halfling charger is good, but the tunnel riding human charger is SLIGHTLY better, provided you eventually get a mount climbs stairs better than a horse. |
| paigeoliver02-23-07, 12:12 AM | Also, if you are doing a halfling Paladin then do two levels of Marshall first, and then go into Paladin. Take the charge aura and the melee attack aura. It will really make you more effective. |
| jhorred02-23-07, 12:28 AM | Also, if you are doing a halfling Paladin then do two levels of Marshall first, and then go into Paladin. Take the charge aura and the melee attack aura. It will really make you more effective. I'll look at it, but my thoughts now are to start with Paladin and maybe go into cavalier later. I take the 2 levels of Marshall first, then I'll be taking an unwanted XP/GP penalty when I pick up my 4th level of Paladin. I generally dislike level dips, but if I did that I'd tend more toward 2 levels of fighter to pick up the Feats I'd need for him to be a powerful charger (Mounted, Ride By, Spirited, & P Attack) which I won't get them all as a Paladin until 9th. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 12:47 AM | Also haste it totally helpful for a charger, What I would give for an extra 30ft of movement. Also some chargers would have the ability at that level to do a single move and a full attack. So 4 rounds of combat would look like this with haste for a charger. Charge - Att/Att/Att/move 80ft - Charge - Att/Att/Att/move 80ft Haste is nowhere near as helpful, because Chargers (as the name suggests) are built around the charge... Those nifty "att/att/att/move 80ft" rounds? They're doing 1d6+Str as a small PC (or 1.5xStr, if they give up their shield) to stay in melee...And they're likely taking an AoO (or several) for the movement, and that assumes it's one of the fights they have room to move and charge... The haste grants them extra attacks and movement, sure, but those attacks aren't quality attacks compared to either their own charge, or a melee specialist's attacks. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 12:50 AM | It depends on how you build your charger. The Tunnel riding feat, a good understanding of he charge rules and the jumping rules can make for a charger who can be used way more often. Flying mounts also really help as well. Tunnel riding AND a flying mount makes for a really effective charge character. A good understanding of the Charge rules will quickly show that a Tunnel Rider can't charge while squeezing :D Read the Tunnel Riding feat. You don't take penalties to attack roles or to AC, but you still are considered squeezed, and thus are at half movement. Per the charge rules you cannot charge through squares that hinder your movement, and squeezed squares are among those. |
| Gallaway02-23-07, 01:58 AM | I'll look at it, but my thoughts now are to start with Paladin and maybe go into cavalier later. I take the 2 levels of Marshall first, then I'll be taking an unwanted XP/GP penalty when I pick up my 4th level of Paladin. I generally dislike level dips, but if I did that I'd tend more toward 2 levels of fighter to pick up the Feats I'd need for him to be a powerful charger (Mounted, Ride By, Spirited, & P Attack) which I won't get them all as a Paladin until 9th. Traditionally a Paladin/Cavalier takes a single level of Hospitaler for the bonus feat at level 6 or so. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 02:45 AM | Kashue extremely lowballing, yes would yield 1D6+ Str 1.5. More likely is power attacking for minimum half (6) so now you are 1d6 + 12 + Str 1.5 + magical bonuses (weapon, prayer etc) which would easily yield 20+ points of damage per hit. About the AoO, first off you have reach so you are gonna be 10 ft away from enemy often. On regular basis the way it would work is the party tank readys vs you finishing your Attacks. i.e . You Attack - After third attack, party tank take 5ft step between you and BBEG - tank finishes his attacks - You move away with party tank providing soft cover negating any AoO. Totally Do-able |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 03:33 AM | Kashue extremely lowballing, yes would yield 1D6+ Str 1.5. More likely is power attacking for minimum half (6) so now you are 1d6 + 12 + Str 1.5 + magical bonuses (weapon, prayer etc) which would easily yield 20+ points of damage per hit. Where's the 12 coming from? Is that power attacking for 6? What's your to hit bonus at that point? Is it comparable (as a halfling) to the Melee fighter? If not, it's not an even comparsion. As for the magic, that's irrelevant, since it'd be the same for the melee person. The only issues here are what is different (damage dice, str, etc) About the AoO, first off you have reach so you are gonna be 10 ft away from enemy often. On regular basis the way it would work is the party tank readys vs you finishing your Attacks. i.e . You Attack - After third attack, party tank take 5ft step between you and BBEG - tank finishes his attacks - You move away with party tank providing soft cover negating any AoO. Totally Do-able So your plan is for the tank to give up his full attack action every other round, just so you don't take an AoO? You're the guy who always needs a ride to the airport, aren't you :P He can't attack some, then ready to wait for you, then finish. A full attack action is a full round action, it can't be split by a ready, and it can't be completed as a readied action (since those can only be single actions). Much more significantly, Soft Cover doesn't apply to melee attacks (it's been in the PHB errata since Sept. 2004), so the basis of the plan is invalid. This is a good example though of what I was talking about earlier. All these scenarios are optimal situations. They work with a limited set of variables, and anything outside of that (which is the majority of the time) it doesn't work out. I've played with some amazing mounted players (who have made it work in crazy situations), but after a hundred or two modules, it's not hard to see the trend that no matter how good the player or build, mounted combat just isn't going to be feasible a lot of the time. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 04:01 AM | Kashue I took a +12 BaB since it was you who first mentioned using a 12th level Character as an example. As for the no soft cover AoO, I have not seen that errata, where can I find it? As for the tank, I guess there are various types of tanks. Our tank uses a tower shield, fights defensively, and puts feats into building up his AC. He needs to take at least 4 points for power attack to get near 20+ points of Damager per hit, which gives him a -10 to hit. I will agree with you that charging doesn't work everytime. But I usually can get at least 1 good charge in per encounter, and it's usually that charge that decides the battle. But 12th level is a year or so away, so I will have to see when I get there. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 04:39 AM | Kashue I took a +12 BaB since it was you who first mentioned using a 12th level Character as an example. So you're adding your BAB to your damage? :confused: Exactly how is that working? As for the no soft cover AoO, I have not seen that errata, where can I find it? Same place as all the other errata (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a) :P As I said, that change is from the Sept, 2004 errata. As for the tank, I guess there are various types of tanks. Our tank uses a tower shield, fights defensively, and puts feats into building up his AC. He needs to take at least 4 points for power attack to get near 20+ points of Damager per hit, which gives him a -10 to hit. I can only speak for my experience, but that sort of build is exceedingly rare. I've seen Dwarven Defenders who don't even gimp themselves that much... It's also sort of unecessary. My 10th level AC fighter can hit the low to mid 30s still having +15 or better on his attacks. I will agree with you that charging doesn't work everytime. But I usually can get at least 1 good charge in per encounter, and it's usually that charge that decides the battle. Not to offend, but I find the claim that you can be mounted and charge in every encounter exceedingly hard to believe. Even as a halfling, there are just too many combats where being mounted at all isn't feasible, much less having charge lanes, no obstructions, no rough terrain, etc. Edit: Fixed a goofy quote tag. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 12:15 PM | No offense taken but you need to read my posts more carefully. More likely is power attacking for minimum half (6) +12 Bab; half is 6 points x 2 (2-handed weapon) =+12 damage The errata I will take a look at. As for the tank, you say gimp, we say effective wall. He soaks up the BBEG attacks round after round, lets the other PC's get flanks, spring attacks, spells and charges off. Again if you read my post carefully. I said "usually" which for me consists of at least 8 out 10 encounters. So in my last 4 mods we had 12 combat encounters of which I got at least 1 charge in 10 of them. (in several of them I got 3 or more charges in per encounter). Couple things to remember: -With Spirited charge all you need is 10ft to do double damage with a Great Sword/Great Axe -Horseshoes of Zephyr (mentioned earlier) eliminates rough terrain -If a normal human sized PC can operate or go there then so can a medium mount. Yes there are stairs leading down to the basement, but if it doesn't call for a climb check then a riding dog can head down there easy. -Jump is a chargers best friend :D (hop ups onto tables are awesome!!) Cheers Gwumph |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 01:20 PM | No offense taken but you need to read my posts more carefully. More likely is power attacking for minimum half (6) +12 Bab; half is 6 points x 2 (2-handed weapon) =+12 damage It was 3am, sorry... Anyhoo, if you made it clear, why didn't you answer my question? I asked what your to hit bonus was...Not your BAB. As for the tank, you say gimp, we say effective wall. He soaks up the BBEG attacks round after round, lets the other PC's get flanks, spring attacks, spells and charges off. So you've got a DM who's attacking the same character round after round, despite the fact the monster can't hit him? http://ebassist.com/forum/images/smilies/huh.gif Again, how does that work? That's horrible judging if the creature has anything more than animal intelligence (and even if it does). If the character isn't doing any damage (i.e., isn't a threat) and is really hard to hit (i.e., is a pain in the ass either as a food source or an enemy), what reason does it have to continue attacking? Is the judge's reasoning to attack him nothing more than "that's the tank"? Again if you read my post carefully. I said "usually" which for me consists of at least 8 out 10 encounters. So in my last 4 mods we had 12 combat encounters of which I got at least 1 charge in 10 of them. (in several of them I got 3 or more charges in per encounter). "Usually", even "most", I would have responded the same, it has nothing to so with "not reading carefully". I still find that to be exceedingly incongruous with my LG experience. And I've played with guys with flying mounts that could hover. It could absolutely be the case, but that would make you about twice as likely to get mounted charges in than any other character I've seen. -Horseshoes of Zephyr (mentioned earlier) eliminates rough terrain -If a normal human sized PC can operate or go there then so can a medium mount. Yes there are stairs leading down to the basement, but if it doesn't call for a climb check then a riding dog can head down there easy. So the Dog's wearing Horseshoes? :confused: Read the text of the item. (DMG p. 260) "These four iron shoes are attached like normal horseshoes. They allow a horse to travel without touching the ground...There's no FAQ, Errata, or LG ruling to alter that text. A dog has no hooves, are you nailing them to his paws? Unless you've got an item from an AR, a riding dog can't use those. A warpony works for the general argument (a medium mount), but in the specifics of your example, you've got a rather big issue with the rules. |
| Gwumph02-23-07, 01:37 PM | LOL Karshue We have got are own little thread going here. Sorry for the hijacking. Gonna respond to Karshue in private. Cheers Gwumph |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-23-07, 03:28 PM | Where's the 12 coming from? Is that power attacking for 6? What's your to hit bonus at that point? Is it comparable (as a halfling) to the Melee fighter? If not, it's not an even comparsion. As for the magic, that's irrelevant, since it'd be the same for the melee person. The only issues here are what is different (damage dice, str, etc) So your plan is for the tank to give up his full attack action every other round, just so you don't take an AoO? You're the guy who always needs a ride to the airport, aren't you :P He can't attack some, then ready to wait for you, then finish. A full attack action is a full round action, it can't be split by a ready, and it can't be completed as a readied action (since those can only be single actions). Much more significantly, Soft Cover doesn't apply to melee attacks (it's been in the PHB errata since Sept. 2004), so the basis of the plan is invalid. This is a good example though of what I was talking about earlier. All these scenarios are optimal situations. They work with a limited set of variables, and anything outside of that (which is the majority of the time) it doesn't work out. I've played with some amazing mounted players (who have made it work in crazy situations), but after a hundred or two modules, it's not hard to see the trend that no matter how good the player or build, mounted combat just isn't going to be feasible a lot of the time. While it is true that soft cover doesn't apply to melee attacks, reach weapons are treated as ranged attacks for the purposes of determining cover. So if you are 10ft away from a guy with a reach weapon, and there is another character between you, you have cover from the guy with the reach weapon. Note that this only applies to those using reach weapons, and not those with natural reach due to size. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 03:57 PM | While it is true that soft cover doesn't apply to melee attacks, reach weapons are treated as ranged attacks for the purposes of determining cover. So if you are 10ft away from a guy with a reach weapon, and there is another character between you, you have cover from the guy with the reach weapon. Note that this only applies to those using reach weapons, and not those with natural reach due to size. Nyet. Check the rules. Reach weapons are not "treated" as ranged weapons. It says: (PHB p. 150, 151) To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. The paragraph is about determining whether something has cover or not. Since the rules for adjacent melee attacks don't work for range, you use the ranged rules for determining whether it has cover or not... Once you determine if it does indeed have cover, then the issue of hard vs. soft comes in. And since soft cover does not apply to melee attacks, and reach melee is still melee, it doesn't apply to reach attacks. And just as a final note, it doesn't make any distinction between natural reach and a reach weapon. Merely that a reach weapon is an example (note the "such as") of an attack at a non-adjacent target (an ogre's fist would be another)... |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-23-07, 04:14 PM | Nyet. Check the rules. Reach weapons are not "treated" as ranged weapons. It says: (PHB p. 150, 151) To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. The paragraph is about determining whether something has cover or not. Since the rules for adjacent melee attacks don't work for range, you use the ranged rules for determining whether it has cover or not... Once you determine if it does indeed have cover, then the issue of hard vs. soft comes in. And since soft cover does not apply to melee attacks, and reach melee is still melee, it doesn't apply to reach attacks. And just as a final note, it doesn't make any distinction between natural reach and a reach weapon. Merely that a reach weapon is an example (note the "such as") of an attack at a non-adjacent target (an ogre's fist would be another)... Might want to try and spread the word on that the, because from my experience, the majority of DM's don't accept that argument. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 04:23 PM | Might want to try and spread the word on that the, because from my experience, the majority of DM's don't accept that argument. Really? I thought most people changed with the errata...I've not had anyone adjudicate soft cover on a reach weapon in a long time (and I play a character with a reach weapon in Humanoid form and stretchy paws in Bear form :D) |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-23-07, 04:34 PM | Really? I thought most people changed with the errata...I've not had anyone adjudicate soft cover on a reach weapon in a long time (and I play a character with a reach weapon in Humanoid form and stretchy paws in Bear form :D) Guess you're just lucky...or maybe I'm not...who knows... |
| jhorred02-23-07, 07:26 PM | Nyet. Check the rules. Reach weapons are not "treated" as ranged weapons. It says: (PHB p. 150, 151) To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC). When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn't adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks. The paragraph is about determining whether something has cover or not. Since the rules for adjacent melee attacks don't work for range, you use the ranged rules for determining whether it has cover or not... Once you determine if it does indeed have cover, then the issue of hard vs. soft comes in. And since soft cover does not apply to melee attacks, and reach melee is still melee, it doesn't apply to reach attacks. And just as a final note, it doesn't make any distinction between natural reach and a reach weapon. Merely that a reach weapon is an example (note the "such as") of an attack at a non-adjacent target (an ogre's fist would be another)... At the same time attacks with melee weapons against targets that are not adjacent are treated as ranged attacks so soft cover would prevent an AoO. (Your quote is from page 151.... and I bolded the appropriate text from it.) The previous paragraph on page 150 covers ranged attack cover and ends with "...or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC.)" Reach melee is still melee, but for cover purposes anything not adjacent uses the ranged attack rules. |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 07:34 PM | At the same time attacks with melee weapons against targets that are not adjacent are treated as ranged attacks so soft cover would prevent an AoO. Please re-read my post because you just reposted exactly what Jay Ibero first wrote. They're not "treated as ranged". They're still melee attacks. You use the ranged rules to determine if there is cover. Then you figure out whether it's soft cover, and if it is, you ignore it as with all melee attacks. Nothing in the text says "reach weapons are treated as ranged weapons", merely that you use the ranged rules to "determine cover" (you still treat cover as if it's a melee attack). |
| Jay_Ibero_91102-23-07, 07:37 PM | Please re-read my post because you just reposted exactly what Jay Ibero first wrote. They're not "treated as ranged". They're still melee attacks. You use the ranged rules to determine if there is cover. Then you figure out whether it's soft cover, and if it is, you ignore it as with all melee attacks. Nothing in the text says "reach weapons are treated as ranged weapons", merely that you use the ranged rules to "determine cover" (you still treat cover as if it's a melee attack). But maybe now you can see why there is still table variation on the matter.... |
| copper_wyrmling02-23-07, 07:44 PM | Please re-read my post because you just reposted exactly what Jay Ibero first wrote. They're not "treated as ranged". They're still melee attacks. You use the ranged rules to determine if there is cover. Then you figure out whether it's soft cover, and if it is, you ignore it as with all melee attacks. Nothing in the text says "reach weapons are treated as ranged weapons", merely that you use the ranged rules to "determine cover" (you still treat cover as if it's a melee attack). Andy Collins disagrees with you... although it's only in the Ask Wizards column, not the FAQ, so it's not official and GMs are free to rule against it. Some people will take it as an indication, though. From the Ask Wizards archive: "Q: You determine cover with a reach weapon using the rules for ranged weapons. In the errata it says that cover from creatures (referred to as soft cover) only applies to ranged weapons. Does this mean that soft cover does or does not apply to weapons with reach? --Judson A: Wait a minute, this was the question for 08/02! That's right, and the answer we provided was wrong, wrong, wrong. For which, we apologize -- and extend the following, correct answer (courtesy of R&D's Andy Collins): For purposes of determining cover, melee reach attacks use the rules for ranged attacks. Thus, soft cover applies to melee reach attacks (since it normally applies to ranged attacks)." As Jay said... expect table variation. |
| jhorred02-23-07, 07:51 PM | Please re-read my post because you just reposted exactly what Jay Ibero first wrote. They're not "treated as ranged". They're still melee attacks. You use the ranged rules to determine if there is cover. Then you figure out whether it's soft cover, and if it is, you ignore it as with all melee attacks. Nothing in the text says "reach weapons are treated as ranged weapons", merely that you use the ranged rules to "determine cover" (you still treat cover as if it's a melee attack). I can see your point, as I agree that it's a melee attack for threatening and such, but, IMHO, the weapon is still using the ranged cover rules when attacking nonadjacent targets. Part of the those rules are soft cover. I think that this is a grey area and not very clear. To me it makes sense that interposing creatures would make attacking more difficult, and would provide cover. (I know the common sense test rarely works for this game but I think that this is one of those times.) |
| King Kashue02-23-07, 08:11 PM | Andy Collins disagrees with you... although it's only in the Ask Wizards column, not the FAQ, so it's not official and GMs are free to rule against it. Some people will take it as an indication, though. Oh yeah, I know there's disagreement. I just don't think that the language actually is as vague as some folks make it out to be... And as I said, can't remember the last time a judge adjudicated it that way at a table I was at. As for the FAQ, meh. It contradicts itself multiple times, including, at one point, in two successive paragraphs. If that's what constitutes "official", I'm not overly confident in the stuff that's just guidelines :D |