Post/Author/DateTime	Post
RtrnofdMax 07-24-07, 11:14 PM	This is written for cleric who is planning on becoming an Ordained Champion (OC) later. So Greyhawk ruins allows a character to take Spontaneous Domain Casting (SDC) at 1st level. This is like the Modified Spontaneous Casting (MDC) for the OC except you can choose a domain other than War and you can throw Healing spells in amongst your domain spells for the levels that have useless domain spells. At first look it seems like this SDC is better in every way unless you want to be able to spontaneously heal and give it up later. Now for the OC: What happens when you take your first level of OC as far as MDC goes? If you chose the War domain at 1st level then you already have that ability more or less. But what if you chose to use SDC on a different domain? I would think you would ignore MDC because you can't spontaneously cast healing or inflicting spells but it seems kinda like there is a hole in the rules. Please weigh in and I don't really care if you don't think OC will ever make it into LG. Here is my build: 1) Cleric (Heironeous): Domain(War,Nobility) 2) Cleric 3) Cleric 4) Cleric 5) Cleric 6) Ordained Champion: Domain(Courage), Feat Trade-in(One or both of Nobility and Courage) 7) Ordained Champion 8) Ordained Champion 9) Warpriest: Domain(Glory) 10) Warpriest 11) Ordained Champion 12) Ordained Champion 13) Cleric 14) Cleric 15) Cleric 16) Cleric: Retire...
Banor 07-25-07, 12:35 AM	Please weigh in and I don't really care if you don't think OC will ever make it into LG. Well this is the LG board, it might important you know. You don't see a lot of Vampire Spawn/Blackguard/Hexblade build around arent you ?
_metz_ 07-25-07, 12:53 AM	Please weigh in and I don't really care if you don't think OC will ever make it into LG. Well I want to play a Warlock Daggerspell mage. Or a Doppelganger Mindspy. My opinion on caring whether it will be legal in LG is irrelevant. It is not allowed. Doesn't mean I'll ask for build help on the LG boards. It will be closed, that is all you need to know. Whether you 'care' or not its a fact OC is most probably to be closed at the next LGCS revision. People should take notice of facts more often, especially when asking questions.
RtrnofdMax 07-25-07, 01:10 AM	Great, so I ask for this not to be a debate about content that either isn't in or may not be in LG and I get the opposite.
_metz_ 07-25-07, 01:30 AM	Great, so I ask for this not to be a debate about content that either isn't in or may not be in LG and I get the opposite. Because it won't be. hence we are saying there is no point in trying to make one. THAT is the build advice. Don't make one as it will banned. There you go, not a debate, but some advice on how best to build your character.
Banor 07-25-07, 01:31 AM	I suggest that you post you build on the DnD Character Optimization forum, not on the LG one. They are the guys that can help for your home game or dream PCs, you are posting a build that is not revelent to LG on the LG board. As much as i love Ordained Champion, chances that it will be closed are high (or highly restricted NONC)
magebeast 07-25-07, 02:13 AM	I don't know why we can't answer this question. Honestly, if you don't want to talk about it, don't talk about it. He is clearly aware that most people think it will be closed, so advising him against it is silly. I'm willing to enter the exercise for the sake of it. Because of the caveat about not being a cleric, I would assume that you simply are unnaffected by it. You can't lose something you've never had, so you don't get it.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-25-07, 02:48 AM	This is written for cleric who is planning on becoming an Ordained Champion (OC) later. So Greyhawk ruins allows a character to take Spontaneous Domain Casting (SDC) at 1st level. This is like the Modified Spontaneous Casting (MDC) for the OC except you can choose a domain other than War and you can throw Healing spells in amongst your domain spells for the levels that have useless domain spells. At first look it seems like this SDC is better in every way unless you want to be able to spontaneously heal and give it up later. Now for the OC: What happens when you take your first level of OC as far as MDC goes? If you chose the War domain at 1st level then you already have that ability more or less. But what if you chose to use SDC on a different domain? I would think you would ignore MDC because you can't spontaneously cast healing or inflicting spells but it seems kinda like there is a hole in the rules. Please weigh in and I don't really care if you don't think OC will ever make it into LG. Here is my build: 1) Cleric (Heironeous): Domain(War,Nobility) 2) Cleric 3) Cleric 4) Cleric 5) Cleric 6) Ordained Champion: Domain(Courage), Feat Trade-in(One or both of Nobility and Courage) 7) Ordained Champion 8) Ordained Champion 9) Warpriest: Domain(Glory) 10) Warpriest 11) Ordained Champion 12) Ordained Champion 13) Cleric 14) Cleric 15) Cleric 16) Cleric: Retire... As to your question as to the interaction between the two abilities, MDC replaces your normal spontaneous healing ability. So does SDC. Therefore MDC would replace SDC the same as it would replace normal spontaneous healing. It is clearly against the spirit of the rules for an alternate class feature to keep you from losing something you normally would due to a PrC feature. If B replaces A, and C normally replaces A, then C should replace B.
magebeast 07-25-07, 09:42 PM	As to your question as to the interaction between the two abilities, MDC replaces your normal spontaneous healing ability. So does SDC. Therefore MDC would replace SDC the same as it would replace normal spontaneous healing. It is clearly against the spirit of the rules for an alternate class feature to keep you from losing something you normally would due to a PrC feature. If B replaces A, and C normally replaces A, then C should replace B. The thing is, it has a caveat for non-clerics who can't spontaneously cast cure spells. In that case, you simply don't get the ability. You don't lose cures, but you can't MDC War spells in.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-25-07, 10:50 PM	The thing is, it has a caveat for non-clerics who can't spontaneously cast cure spells. In that case, you simply don't get the ability. You don't lose cures, but you can't MDC War spells in. But that caveat is only for NON-clerics. He still IS a cleric, albeit with a different ability. And as he is still a cleric he must still lose something to gain MDC.
magebeast 07-25-07, 11:16 PM	And as he is still a cleric he must still lose something to gain MDC. Why must he necessarily lose something? Other than being an imbalanced ability?
Jay_Ibero_911 07-25-07, 11:18 PM	Why must he necessarily lose something? Other than being an imbalanced ability? Exactly. He'd either have to lose the alternate ability to gain MDC, or be unable to gain MDC because he does not have the ability to trade for it. He can't just gain MDC for free.
magebeast 07-25-07, 11:22 PM	Exactly. He'd either have to lose the alternate ability to gain MDC, or be unable to gain MDC because he does not have the ability to trade for it. He can't just gain MDC for free. So, I'd say he doesn't get MDC. Makes more sense to me.
Jay_Ibero_911 07-25-07, 11:35 PM	So, I'd say he doesn't get MDC. Makes more sense to me. It is the simpler answer. Of course if he really wants MDC he can just choose to NOT use the frankly stupid SDC alternate class ability. Interstingly enough though, a cleric with MDC would still be able to keep the Divine Restoration alternate class ability to sponaneosly restore as it is in trade for a domain power. And after aquiring MDC a cleric could theoretically take the Spontaneous Healer feat for limited spontaneous healing too...