Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ThaiGQ 05-08-07, 01:02 PM	I know the feat specifically states that it has no effect on creatures not subject to sneak attack damage...but what happens if you can add your sneak attack damage via Golem/Grave Strike? Logic would say that the feat has no effect...but the spell(s) specifically allow you to apply sneak attack damage to those types of creatures, so would they then be subject to becoming staggered?
bitznarf 05-08-07, 01:12 PM	I know the feat specifically states that it has no effect on creatures not subject to sneak attack damage...but what happens if you can add your sneak attack damage via Golem/Grave Strike? Logic would say that the feat has no effect...but the spell(s) specifically allow you to apply sneak attack damage to those types of creatures, so would they then be subject to becoming staggered? By casting Golem/Grave/Vine Strike, you have effectively made the creature vulnerable to SnA. Thus, X Strike trumps the creatures immunities, allowing Staggering Strike to go through. If the case was otherwise, with the creatures immunities trumping X Strike then the spells would literally do *nothing*. Anything that takes damage from sneak attack is by definition vulnerable to sneak attack, if only for that turn.
Japangirl 05-08-07, 03:44 PM	Actually, the spells do not technically make the creature vulnerable to Sneak Attack. They let you do your sneak attack damage by giving you special insight into their vulnerabilities, but in no way negate the immunity to Fort saves possessed by constructs or the inability of undead to be staggered. Thus they cannot be staggered by Staggering Strike.
bitznarf 05-08-07, 03:55 PM	Actually, the spells do not technically make the creature vulnerable to Sneak Attack. They let you do your sneak attack damage by giving you special insight into their vulnerabilities, but in no way negate the immunity to Fort saves possessed by constructs or the inability of undead to be staggered. Thus they cannot be staggered by Staggering Strike. Those other 2 issues have nothing to do with sneak attack directly. If the only thing stopping Staggering Strike from working is immunity to sneak attack, I think that the X Strike spells would work.
Japangirl 05-08-07, 04:02 PM	True. But those three spells work on plants, undead, and constructs, of which undead and constructs are usually immune to being staggered. So the spells wouldn't let you stagger them just because you got to sneak them, they'd have to be vulnerable to staggering anyways. Plants are vulnerable to being staggered, so Vine Strike would allow you to Staggering Strike a plant.
clik_ml 05-11-07, 09:03 AM	Damn, I hadn't considered the immunity to fort saves that Constructs and Undead get that will keep them from being affected by Staggering Strike. Boo. I was terribly excited for when my rogue would someday be an Unseen Seer capapable of using Staggering Strike on all those critters. Oh well.
Timlagor 05-14-07, 11:11 AM	Devil's Advocate: The Spells don't actually make the creatures 'subject to sneak attack'. If they did so then they would make them subject to *everyone's* sneak attack. They allow you to bypass the immunity rather than negate it. Expext Table Variation (but since most targets are immune to staggering anyway it's probably moot).
ThaiGQ 05-14-07, 04:13 PM	Thanks for the reply guys...I guess there goes the idea of trying to make a build that can use Staggering Strike on constructs and undead... :weep: Oh well...on to other character concepts... ;)
Japangirl 05-14-07, 04:16 PM	Thanks for the reply guys...I guess there goes the idea of trying to make a build that can use Staggering Strike on constructs and undead... :weep: Oh well...on to other character concepts... ;) It's OK, sneak attacking undead and constructs is good enough. It's pure gold when you go up to a construct and beat the snot out of it as a 10 Str halfling rogue who everyone knows only does 1d3+1 without sneak attack dice :D.
clik_ml 05-14-07, 05:53 PM	It's OK, sneak attacking undead and constructs is good enough. It's pure gold I'll second that. Sneak attacking pretty much everything except oozes and elementals is a pretty good schtick. Staggering Strike is still pretty hot, even if constructs and undead aren't affected by it. Hell, Staggering Strike + 1 rogue level isn't even a bad deal for most high damage beaters so long as you can get a flank buddy.