Post/Author/DateTime	Post
King Kashue 03-27-07, 02:46 PM	Okay, I've really got it into my head to play a stormlord. I don't have any cleric characters, and most of the potential builds bore the crap out of me. Stormlord looks cool, but it's got two dead feats (great fortitude and endurance) so I really want to optimize the rest of the build to make up for the drain those represent. I'm doing this build for role-playing reasons, but I obviously have to carry my own weight here (not something I'm usually concerned with, since even though I don't min/max, it stays effective, but two feats for a cleric is a big sink hole). So, I would like to do a primary caster, secondary melee fighter, since the stormlord abilities are all built around fighting, but it still has full caster progression. However, it seems that taking a level of fighter might actually be more effective overall. So basically, I'm looking for any constructive criticism, but specifically wondering on feat optimization, and which of the two builds looks more effective (especially considering I'd like to stay full caster, but the fighter build looks better). I don't know clerics, so there may be some really obvious things I'm overlooking. Human, follower of Procan, Windstorm and Luck domains. STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA 8 Full caster build: 1st Cleric - Endurance, Great Fortitude 2nd Cleric 3rd Cleric - Weapon Focus 4th Cleric 5th Cleric 6th Stormlord - Craft Wonderous Item 7th Stormlord 8th Stormlord 9th Stormlord - Craft Arms and Armor 10th Stormlord 11th Stormlord 12th Stormlord - Improved Crit. 13th Stormlord 14th Stormlord 15th Stormlord - Improved Toughness One level of fighter build: 1st Cleric - Endurance, Great Fortitude 2nd Cleric 3rd Cleric - Craft Wonderous Item 4th Fighter - Weapon Focus 5th Cleric 6th Cleric - Craft Arms and Armor 7th Stormlord 8th Stormlord 9th Stormlord - Augment Healing 10th Stormlord 11th Stormlord 12th Stormlord - Improved Crit 13th Stormlord 14th Stormlord 15th Stormlord - Improved Toughness I'm taking improved crit because of my thundering and shocking burst Stormlord abilities. The CWI is pretty obvious, and my thinking on the CA&A is to lessen the cost of weapon bonuses to keep my combat effectiveness up. And I took augment healing in the Fighter build to make up for the lower caster level. So, which is the more effective? Are there feats/options I'm missing? Etc. Thanks in advance. Edit: Fixed error.
Jay_Ibero_911 03-27-07, 03:16 PM	Race:Human Alignment: STR-15 (8) DEX-14 (6) CON-14 (6) INT-10 (2) WIS-8 (0) CHA-14 (6) Lv1(Ranger)Track, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot Lv2(Ranger)Rapid Shot Lv3(Ranger)Endurance, Great Fortitude Lv4(Fighter)Weapon Focus, +1 STR Lv5(Fighter)Quick Draw Lv6(Fighter)Power Attack Lv7(Fighter)Weapon Specialization Lv8(Divine Crusader)+1 STR Lv9(Divine Crusader)Ranged Weapon Mastery Lv10(Divine Crusader) Lv11(Stormlord) Lv12(Stormlord)Feat, +1 STR Lv13(Stormlord) Lv14(Stormlord) Lv15(Divine Crusader)Feat
King Kashue 03-27-07, 03:22 PM	Thanks, but: So, I would like to do a primary caster, secondary melee fighter, since the stormlord abilities are all built around fighting, but it still has full caster progression. ;) I've got gishes, I've got mutts, this is going to be a cleric with near-full casting. :D
Qworg 03-27-07, 03:34 PM	So, I would like to do a primary caster, secondary melee fighter, since the stormlord abilities are all built around fighting, but it still has full caster progression. However, it seems that taking a level of fighter might actually be more effective overall. Human, follower of Procan, Windstorm and Luck domains. STR 16 DEX 10 CON 14 INT 8 WIS 16 CHA 8 Full caster build: 1st Cleric - Endurance, Great Fortitude 2nd Cleric 3rd Cleric - Weapon Focus 4th Cleric 5th Cleric 6th Stormlord - Craft Wonderous Item 7th Stormlord 8th Stormlord 9th Stormlord - Craft Arms and Armor 10th Stormlord 11th Stormlord 12th Stormlord - Improved Crit. 13th Stormlord 14th Stormlord 15th Stormlord - Improved Toughness CA&A needs to be looked at closely - how many enhancements can you actually construct with your spell list? I'd swap CA&A with Quick Draw and Imp Toughness with something else. =P
Munkwunk 03-27-07, 03:35 PM	The Fighter+ build seems pretty good. I find it difficult to justify building a Stormlord without at least a couple of levels of Fighter to make up for "dead feats", but I"ve always preferred a thrown-weapon Stormlord to a melee Stormlord (and thrown weapon Stormlord means additional feats, like Point Blank and Precise). I don't think you really need CA&A. Your weapons are automatically magical and armor isn't really that expensive, especially if you're saving plenty of cash by having CWI. I'm not really sure why you'd need Improved Toughness either; you may not be able to wear an Amulet of Health with your Periapt requriements, but you could grab an Ioun Stone to boost your Con by 2 points if the HP are really that necessary, otherwise you can rely on Temp HP from spells like Divine Power and Heroes' Feast to keep yourself up. That being said, I'm not really sure what to suggest as far as feats go otherwise. Steady Concnetration maybe? IMO, that's always a great cleric feat. You might also consider Shield Specialization and Shield Ward.
trollbill 03-27-07, 04:15 PM	If you want to maintain absolute full casting ability you can try 6 levels of Favored Soul instead.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 06:17 PM	CA&A needs to be looked at closely - how many enhancements can you actually construct with your spell list? I'd swap CA&A with Quick Draw and Imp Toughness with something else. =P Quick draw only works for a ranged build, and this is not a ranged build, I don't have the feats for it. As for CA&A, I've looked at it. I can do frost,fire, shock (although I obviously don't need to), spell storing, ghost touch, bane...Most of the weapon enchants I want, as well as most of the armor enchants I want (there really is only a few that clerics can't do, depending on their domains)... And if you've got a suggestion instead of improved toughness, lay it on me. I chose it because I didn't have much else, and more hit points are always useful. :D The Fighter+ build seems pretty good. I find it difficult to justify building a Stormlord without at least a couple of levels of Fighter to make up for "dead feats", but I"ve always preferred a thrown-weapon Stormlord to a melee Stormlord (and thrown weapon Stormlord means additional feats, like Point Blank and Precise). Yeah, but like I said, I want caster first, then combat. The one level of fighter is an issue, but it puts me on par spell level-wise with a favored soul, so I'm okay with one level, if that looks best. Any more departure from that and it's not what I'm wanting to do with the character. I don't think you really need CA&A. Your weapons are automatically magical and armor isn't really that expensive, especially if you're saving plenty of cash by having CWI. Indeed, my weapons are already magical. And adding actual enchants to my stormlord abilities gives me the equivalent of a +5 or 6 weapon at half the cost of a +3. I'm not really sure why you'd need Improved Toughness either; you may not be able to wear an Amulet of Health with your Periapt requriements, but you could grab an Ioun Stone to boost your Con by 2 points if the HP are really that necessary, otherwise you can rely on Temp HP from spells like Divine Power and Heroes' Feast to keep yourself up. That being said, I'm not really sure what to suggest as far as feats go otherwise. Steady Concnetration maybe? IMO, that's always a great cleric feat. You might also consider Shield Specialization and Shield Ward. Yeah, that's my issue, nothing much else and hitpoints are always useful. If you want to maintain absolute full casting ability you can try 6 levels of Favored Soul instead. The whole point of cleric is spell versatility. Favored Soul = Lower BAB, VASTLY reduced spell selection, and the Same spell level progression as my fighter build... Also, I noticed, to take CWI in the fighter build, I have to start cleric, so I've edited that...
Lupo 03-27-07, 08:00 PM	Quick draw only works for a ranged build, and this is not a ranged build, I don't have the feats for it. the problem with storm lord is, it offers a huge bonus for a "thrower" that are of no practical use for a cleric build, as you can't qualify for stormlord - endurance, great fortitude, weapon focus - AND get the necessary feats for a "thrower" as well - point blank, precise, rapid shot, quick draw and at best power attack, brutal throw and power throw. summing up to a total of 7, all your feats till level 15 :rolleyes: with ONE level of fighter, it may be an option, but then i would prefer the favoured soul - ok, favoured souls are one level later to get any spell tier, but then they get enough spells, so they are only behind the cleric's spell progression at odd levels (yes, it hurts to never get level 8 spells in the normal campaign) - while your cleric with one fighter level is one level behind and only gets the clerics allotment of spells. anyway one has to take at least TWO fighter levels to make the "thrower" stormlord "stable", that is way to much to be called "full caster" ;) so i wouldn't look at the "thrower" variant of stormlord at all for a cleric, just ditch it :( a melee stormlord has definitely better options, one only needs the infamous all-frontliners-should-have-feat "power attack". st 16 dx 12 co 14 in 8 wis 15 ch 8 (might go with dx 10 and ch 10 but that's just taste) 1st cleric 1: great fortitude, endurance 2nd cleric 2 3rd cleric 3: weapon focus 4th cleric 4 5th cleric 5 6th stomlord 1: enhanced javelins +1 (b), energy resistance electric 5 (b), power attack 7th stormlord 2: shock weapon (b) 8th stormlord 3: storm walk (b) 9th stormlord 4: energy resistance electric 10 (b), craft wondrous 10th stormlord 5: thundering weapon (b) 11th stormlord 6: storm ride (b), enhanced javelins +2 (b) 12th stormlord 7: energy resistance electric 15 (b), quicken spell or improved crit 13th stormlord 8: shocking burst weapon (b) 14th stormlord 9: energy immunity electric (b), enhanced javelins +3 (b) 15: stormlord 10: elemental conflagration (b), quicken spell or improved crit just take the javelins as backup weapons with a nice trick, don't waste ANY feats or stat points on them. ciao martin m.
Mommy was an Orc 03-27-07, 08:33 PM	the problem with storm lord is, it offers a huge bonus for a "thrower" that are of no practical use for a cleric build, as you can't qualify for stormlord - endurance, great fortitude, weapon focus - AND get the necessary feats for a "thrower" as well - point blank, precise, rapid shot, quick draw and at best power attack, brutal throw and power throw. just take the javelins as backup weapons with a nice trick, don't waste ANY feats or stat points on them. Yeah, I agree with most of this - but this is something of the advantage of Favored Soul - you get an additional feat out of it via WF. That's enough for Quickdraw. Not quite as good as Power Attack to a melee build, but it will let you throw magical javelins when you need to do so.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 10:14 PM	Thanks for the feedback, some questions though: so i wouldn't look at the "thrower" variant of stormlord at all for a cleric, just ditch it :( I did before we began :D a melee stormlord has definitely better options, one only needs the infamous all-frontliners-should-have-feat "power attack". Am I going to have enough +to hit to make good use of power attack? I don't have any smites to push power attack or anything like that. That's sort of why I was looking at CA&A, because I can add damage without costing my limited BAB. Is there a means of getting +to hit that I'm not considering in order to make good use of power attack? st 16 dx 12 co 14 in 8 wis 15 ch 8 (might go with dx 10 and ch 10 but that's just taste) Why 12 Dex? 10 Dex and 2,000g covers my armor max dex. Of course, the odd starting Wis allows for maximum benefit of the LG normal campaign +3 in stat bumps, and more AC if I get mithral armor. just take the javelins as backup weapons with a nice trick, don't waste ANY feats or stat points on them. That's the plan :D
Mommy was an Orc 03-27-07, 10:49 PM	Am I going to have enough +to hit to make good use of power attack? I don't have any smites to push power attack or anything like that. Once you get Divine Power, you do. 22 Strength/FullBAB is reasonably impressive. Throw on Quicken Spell for +3 to hit/damage from Divine Favor and Power Attack is more than easy to do.
King Kashue 03-27-07, 11:00 PM	Once you get Divine Power, you do. 22 Strength/FullBAB is reasonably impressive. Throw on Quicken Spell for +3 to hit/damage from Divine Favor and Power Attack is more than easy to do. Ah, gotcha (Told ya I don't play clerics :D). Maybe I should switch power attack and CWI then (in Lupo's build) because I won't be able to take advantage of that until 9th, and CWI gives me boosts at lower levels.