Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magebeast 12-19-07, 11:40 PM	Okay, so after exiting Red Hand and playing a few mods last weekend I find myself at 9. I already picked out my level 9 list pretty easily, but I'm look on towards 10 and I'd like to have that spell picked out early. At the moment I'm not feeling any huge lack - although I have not played at 9 yet , so that may change tomorrow after I play! Important Info: Sor 6/Rua 3 str 8 dex 12 (14 with +2 gloves I bought when rays weren't hitting. I've since lost most of them, but i haven't found anything to replace the gloves, so they stay despite how terrible the purchase is) con 14 int 10 wis 8 cha 24 (started at 18, two bumps, +4 cloak) Feats: Empower, Energy Sub Acid (used to have scorching ray so this feat was a little more useful), sculpt, sudden maximize, rapid metamagic Items of Note other than those listed: Very few. This character is kind of poor from lots of deaths. Free +1 longsword from ruathar, vest of resist +2, a single pearl of power 1, and a rod of lesser extend. Spell List —— 0-Level Spells (Cantrips) —— Acid Splash Detect Magic Disrupt Undead Mage Hand Mending Message Prestidigitation Read Magic —— 1st-Level Spells —— Benign Transposition Feather Fall Grease Magic Missile Ray of Enfeeblement —— 2nd-Level Spells —— False Life Fly, Swift Glitterdust See Invisibility —— 3rd-Level Spells —— Fireball Haste Unluck —— 4th-Level Spells —— Dimension Door Evard's Black Tentacles Assume that my spell access sucks, because it does. That might change after tomorrows mod (one can hope!) but for the time being assume it does not. What 5th level spell would you suggest, and why?
MwaO 12-20-07, 12:44 AM	There really are the usual suspects, roughly in order: Wall of Force - wall off opponents - in one combat, we pinned a CR +3 opponent behind the wall while we finished off the minions. Mass Fly - tricky, need to understand the buddy system, but everyone flies. It can often heavily modify or negate encounters. Fighting a mindless Golem as an example? Just stay out of range. Magic Jar - play familiar nonsense. better for Wizards because they can just switch out the spell if the ruling is against them. Spirit Wall - alternate Wall of Force. Not quite as good, but unusual. Arc of Lightning - very easy to target, decent damage, no SR spell Teleport - DDoor is often more useful due to Teleport bypassing encounters. Telekinesis - situational, needs GMW -------- Given you tend to die, I'd go for one of the 1st two. Right now, we're playing a mod where we're mass flying through the dungeon crawl section of it and it has let our melee types engage flying monsters already a couple of times. Wall of Force is also nice because you can wall off part of an encounter to prevent it from getting to you. With both of those spells, if your opponent is the wrong kind of monster in the wrong kind of tactical situation, they're usually really out of luck.
magebeast 12-20-07, 12:56 AM	Given you tend to die, I'd go for one of the 1st two. Right now, we're playing a mod where we're mass flying through the dungeon crawl section of it and it has let our melee types engage flying monsters already a couple of times. I haven't died in a while except for during once Red Hand which was particularly brutal for my group makeup. I think I'm plenty survivable, but wall of force is definitely in the running. Arc of Lightning is another one I was considering. Keep the suggestions coming, please :)
copperwyrmling 12-20-07, 03:42 AM	There really are the usual suspects, roughly in order: Wall of Force - wall off opponents - in one combat, we pinned a CR +3 opponent behind the wall while we finished off the minions. Mass Fly - tricky, need to understand the buddy system, but everyone flies. It can often heavily modify or negate encounters. Fighting a mindless Golem as an example? Just stay out of range. Magic Jar - play familiar nonsense. better for Wizards because they can just switch out the spell if the ruling is against them. Spirit Wall - alternate Wall of Force. Not quite as good, but unusual. Arc of Lightning - very easy to target, decent damage, no SR spell Teleport - DDoor is often more useful due to Teleport bypassing encounters. Telekinesis - situational, needs GMW. These are good suggestions. Mass Fly would be my first choice given you currently don't have any way to get other people in the air. Since you already have DDoor, I probably wouldn't take Teleport first. It has been my experience that at APL 10+, module authors will (legitimately) assume that every party has a way to get people in the air. Having Mass Fly can be really important in those fights, and it also skips you easily past quite a lot of non-combat challenges. It's especially nice on a sorc, as you just cast it when you need it. Also, looking at your spell list, your existing L5-slot-burners are: - Sculpted Evard's Black Tentacles (good battlefield control) - Empowered (Acid) Fireball (area damage) Mass Fly seems like a nice alternate use for your L5 slots that doesn't overlap much with your current options. I've always wanted to try Prying Eyes on my sorc, but other spells keep edging it out. It's a very nice scouting spell. At hours/level though, you won't be casting it more than once/day, so I wouldn't take it first. Telekinesis needs Chained GMW for the massive-damage hail-of-large-swords trick. It's still a pretty versatile and interesting spell without those exploits. Just some comments on MwaO's comments... Spiritwall - "not quite as good" depends on what you use it for. As "stop the giant mindless constructs/undead/vermin from getting to me", it's nowhere NEAR as useful as Wall of Force (it stops them from seeing you, but that's about it). As a line-of-effect-blocker (vs casters, breath weapons, spell-likes etc) that's flexible in shape and placement, coupled with an area SR:no will-save-or-flee (to which your party will frequently be immune at APL 10+), it's a very versatile and useful spell, I think more so than Wall of Force. They're differently strong, it's not just a Wall of Force replacement. Teleport - you can use it to replace DDoor in a tactical situation. You can also use it to dash back to a city to get the item you need but forgot, to do an emergency raise/restoration/etc on a PC or NPC, and to not have to worry about time pressure in certain games. You learn to recognize the situations where it's likely to skip you past an encounter, and find IC justifications for not using it in those situations (generally, if you can possibly say, "We should go by foot so we don't miss clues along the way", then you probably should). My L14 sorc has Teleport, Spiritwall and Mass Fly as her three L5 spells (taken in that order). I have never regretted taking Teleport: it gets used pretty much every mod, usually multiple times (it's one of those "when you have a hammer..." spells ;) ). Spiritwall doesn't get used as often, but it's really reshaped a number of encounters. At the level she took it, she can cast Mass Fly pretty much whenever she suspects it might be useful, and keep it up throughout dungeon-crawls, and that's been a nice capability to have. My L8 sorc will take Mass Fly as her first L5 spell, because she doesn't have Fly (just Swift Fly), and I've seen far too many APL 10+ mods where you NEEDED to get the melee types into the air to have a realistic hope of winning the encounter without massive resource expenditure. Also she's dragon-themed and has been "infusing her allies with draconic power" since L6 (and Haste), so it's in-flavor.
dkay807 12-20-07, 05:00 PM	In far fewer words than Tracy used, I would also recommend Mass Fly first. I would recommend Wall of Force second. I find both to be staple spells in LG and speaking from experience, I use Mass Fly far more often than I use Wall of Force. Apart from the obvious "yay we can fly" benefits of the spell, it helps mobility, it helps deal with difficult terrain, and more.
TWG_Prometheus 12-20-07, 05:40 PM	Mass Fly is a good option, but I think it's sad that they wouldn't have anything else to do with their 5th level spell slots. They may want to pick up somethinig offensive and non-splashy. Right now, if area effect spells would hurt their allies, they have nothing going except Magic Missile.
dkay807 12-20-07, 06:02 PM	Mass Fly is a good option, but I think it's sad that they wouldn't have anything else to do with their 5th level spell slots. They may want to pick up somethinig offensive and non-splashy. Right now, if area effect spells would hurt their allies, they have nothing going except Magic Missile. Tracy pointed out above that he would have plenty to do with his 5th level spell slots. Just because he doesn't have an offensive 5th level spell does not mean he can't use his 5th level spell slots for offense. See her post - he can easily create empowered fireballs or sculpted evard's.
magebeast 12-20-07, 07:21 PM	Tracy pointed out above that he would have plenty to do with his 5th level spell slots. Just because he doesn't have an offensive 5th level spell does not mean he can't use his 5th level spell slots for offense. See her post - he can easily create empowered fireballs or sculpted evard's. And if I really need a big boom, once a day I can throw a maximized empowered fireball with sudden maximize. I'm liking Mass Fly and Wall of force, but my friends have a couple wizards that are right at my level so I'm not sure how I feel about mass fly - as they are capable of providing it. Wall of force seems neat. I'm headed to my mod shortly, so we'll see if anything interesting comes up there.
solbergb 12-20-07, 08:46 PM	It's hard to go wrong with wall of force. The others have suggested many good spells. They're the "usual suspects" and would go decently well with your spell mix. Here's a few other ideas if you want to be a little different. If you want some SR=no boom (you don't have any, just grease/glitterdust) consider arc lightning. Might be better as a level 13 or 15 pick though. Do your wizards also do rary telepathic bond? That one's kind of fun. Your save DC's are decent and you have no high level save/xxx. Hold monster or baleful polymorph or feeblemind or dominate person? you don't see to need self defense so greater blink isn't a very attractive choice. It is sometimes pretty fun to use the new polymorph tree spells on your familiar. Consider possibly Form of the Threefold Beast.
magebeast 12-21-07, 04:59 PM	My biggest issue last night was when the large opponent in a combat had shield up and I realized that my only source of direct damage that wasn't an AOE was magic missile. Tough. I might end up going with Arc of Lightning though it becomes tricky if I don't have a second target or a willing high reflex/evasion partner. My friends' high level druid will often drop it on my friend's high level rogue + the BBEG if there's only one of them, apparently. On a sort of related note, I got semi-access to assay spell resistance last night. I need to spend TUs to get at it, which I can't do till next year, but I'm trying to figure out if I can and should fit it in. I was thinking about making my last 4th level spell an orb. Not sure which way I should go. EDIT: I can't find the spell Form of the Threefold Beast anywhere. DOUBLE EDIT: Nevermind I found it.
copperwyrmling 12-22-07, 02:33 AM	My biggest issue last night was when the large opponent in a combat had shield up and I realized that my only source of direct damage that wasn't an AOE was magic missile. Is that really a big deal, when you can Sculpt, Acid Sub and Sudden Maximize your fireballs? You won't hurt your allies if the bad guy is Large (just sculpt it to four 10ft cubes, put one cube on the monster and distribute the others randomly).
Lomiat 12-22-07, 10:51 AM	It is sometimes pretty fun to use the new polymorph tree spells on your familiar. Consider possibly Form of the Threefold Beast. The new polymorph spells are, indeed, fun to cast on your familiar, but I wouldn't recommend Form of the Threefold Beast. It gets slightly better attacks than Trollshape and slightly better AC, but Trollshape offers regeneration -- which is a very good thing when bad stuff decides to retaliate against your familiar. I don't think you should worry much, either, about your choice of Mass Fly or Wall of Force stepping on wizards' toes. They're wizards; they get to change their spell selection. Sorcerers don't (well, not mod-to-mod). Take a spell you know you can put to use, tell the wizards that's one of the spells you know, and let them swap it for something else. I was happy in a recent COR special when I played with two sorcerers who could each cast Disintegrate; I didn't have to prep it for my wizard, so I prepped different stuff.
Mattastrophic 12-22-07, 11:57 AM	My biggest issue last night was when the large opponent in a combat had shield up and I realized that my only source of direct damage that wasn't an AOE was magic missile. Is there a reason why you lost Scorching Ray? That's a solid spell at all levels, doubly so starting at 12th when you can start Quickening them. Orb of Force/Fire might be a good choice to augment your 4th-level list. -Matt
magebeast 12-22-07, 12:59 PM	Is there a reason why you lost Scorching Ray? That's a solid spell at all levels, doubly so starting at 12th when you can start Quickening them. Orb of Force/Fire might be a good choice to augment your 4th-level list. -Matt Because in the first four sections of Red Hand of Doom, I cast it probably once a combat. It hit ONE TIME the entire time and I sort of gave up at that point. And actually I had it for parts of part 5 before I levelled to 8 and got rid of it. Same deal. Never hit with it.
magebeast 12-22-07, 01:03 PM	Is that really a big deal, when you can Sculpt, Acid Sub and Sudden Maximize your fireballs? You won't hurt your allies if the bad guy is Large (just sculpt it to four 10ft cubes, put one cube on the monster and distribute the others randomly). Well, I dunno. Maybe not. It probably didn't help that we were essentially playing it with my sorcerer, a 9 wizard, and a 10 cleric. Our 4th was another wizard, but he was only level 4 so we pretty much ran the combats. All the combats were in one day, and I burned a bunch of spells the first combat so come the second combat I was pretty much out of second and third level slots and wasn't sure what things were going to be like after that. I guess I need to play a couple mods before I come to any conclusions.
copperwyrmling 12-22-07, 03:16 PM	Well, I dunno. Maybe not. It probably didn't help that we were essentially playing it with my sorcerer, a 9 wizard, and a 10 cleric. Our 4th was another wizard, but he was only level 4 so we pretty much ran the combats. All the combats were in one day, and I burned a bunch of spells the first combat so come the second combat I was pretty much out of second and third level slots and wasn't sure what things were going to be like after that. I guess I need to play a couple mods before I come to any conclusions. What you're currently missing in the way of direct-damage-dealing is: - Spells to deal with creatures with evasion, other than empowered magic missile (which is rather slow at APL 10+) - SR:no options - Spells for creatures with resistance and/or immunity to both fire and acid, other than empowered magic missile (which is rather slow at APL 10+) I honestly think only the middle one is likely to be a big deal for you: once you've dropped sculpted glitterdust and/or evards on evading rogues, magic missile damage is usually quite fast enough ;) Fireball, unlike scorching ray, does all its damage in one big chunk, so resistance 10 isn't as much of a problem, and immunity to both fire and acid is pretty rare. Whether you need an SR:no damage option depends on the sorts of parties you normally play with. Grease + glitterdust + evards tends to work pretty well on golems, provided you actually have someone who can kill them. If you're the main damage-dealer in most of your parties due to a lack of good melee characters, you probably do want to try to squeeze in an orb spell (although if you never hit with scorching ray... maybe not. I speak from the perspective of a starting-Dex-16 sorcerer whose L1 feats were Point Blank + Precise). I feel your pain with regard to L4 spells, though. That's the other reason my sorc has Teleport instead of D-Door and Freezing Fog instead of Solid Fog: so many good L4 spells, so few spells-known slots...
magebeast 12-22-07, 04:14 PM	What you're currently missing in the way of direct-damage-dealing is: - Spells to deal with creatures with evasion, other than empowered magic missile (which is rather slow at APL 10+) - SR:no options - Spells for creatures with resistance and/or immunity to both fire and acid, other than empowered magic missile (which is rather slow at APL 10+) I honestly think only the middle one is likely to be a big deal for you: once you've dropped sculpted glitterdust and/or evards on evading rogues, magic missile damage is usually quite fast enough ;) Fireball, unlike scorching ray, does all its damage in one big chunk, so resistance 10 isn't as much of a problem, and immunity to both fire and acid is pretty rare. Whether you need an SR:no damage option depends on the sorts of parties you normally play with. Grease + glitterdust + evards tends to work pretty well on golems, provided you actually have someone who can kill them. If you're the main damage-dealer in most of your parties due to a lack of good melee characters, you probably do want to try to squeeze in an orb spell (although if you never hit with scorching ray... maybe not. I speak from the perspective of a starting-Dex-16 sorcerer whose L1 feats were Point Blank + Precise). I feel your pain with regard to L4 spells, though. That's the other reason my sorc has Teleport instead of D-Door and Freezing Fog instead of Solid Fog: so many good L4 spells, so few spells-known slots... I *know* that my region (the BK) has a LOT LOT LOT of outsiders at high APLs that I'm going to have to deal with so some sort of No SR spell is probably a good idea. So I suppose the question becomes...assay spell resistance, or orb of force? As for how much of a damage dealer I'm going to have to be - I'm not sure. A lot of the mods I haven't played, the higher levels around here have but when the year 8s start coming in I'm not sure what sort of group I'll end up playing with.
Mattastrophic 12-22-07, 05:54 PM	I've definitely experienced what you're going through first-hand, with high-level outsiders. I think you'll start feeling some relief soon, though: Arc Lightning is an excellent solution, but... doesn't work on demons... unless you have the option to on-the-fly Energy Sub it so it will. Which you do. So you're covered there. On the other hand, what about the Evasion issue? To deal with that, you'll probably have to take some ranged touch spells and put some work into that ranged touch modifier. Base Attack, Boots of Speed, Gloves of Dex, Heroism, and Guided Shot work well for this. If you want to get really crazy, Reduce Person is also good for this. If you get a Recitation, that helps too. -Matt
copperwyrmling 12-22-07, 05:55 PM	I *know* that my region (the BK) has a LOT LOT LOT of outsiders at high APLs that I'm going to have to deal with so some sort of No SR spell is probably a good idea. So I suppose the question becomes...assay spell resistance, or orb of force? Ow, that's tough (my sorc played in Perrenland for the first few years, I can sympathize). Demons are hard to hurt with arcane magic (all good saves, resistance 10 at least to every element, and SR). Orb of Force tends to feel somewhat underwhelming as direct damage at the higher APLs: a single swing from a well-built melee with a good-aligned weapon will typically do more, and if you can put them in melee range (with benign transposition for instance) for a full attack, that's a much more efficient use of actions and spell slots. However Orb of Force DOES work on just about everything (including incorporeals), it's Medium range which is nice, and with your feats you can make it into a pretty decent 60-pt blast once/day. Assuming decent melee types in your group, I'd be more inclined to take Assay SR and hit demons with empowered rays of enfeeblement - quite a lot of them have multiple natural attacks (rather than one big hit) and empowered RoE really shuts them down. My sorc has both Orb of Force and Assay SR, but she had issues with lack of melee allies.
copperwyrmling 12-22-07, 06:03 PM	Arc Lightning is an excellent solution, but... doesn't work on demons... unless you have the option to on-the-fly Energy Sub it so it will. Which you do. So you're covered there. Really? They have favored reflex saves, although their Dex isn't very good, and acid resistance 10 (i.e. average damage from 15d6 is 53, save for half is 26, take off resistance 10 is 16). There's also the need for a second creature to arc to. I'm still not sure arc of lightning is worth one of the four ever L5 spells-known slots, unless it's desired for thematic reasons, much less one of the first two. On the other hand, what about the Evasion issue? To deal with that, you'll probably have to take some ranged touch spells and put some work into that ranged touch modifier. Base Attack, Boots of Speed, Gloves of Dex, Heroism, and Guided Shot work well for this. If you want to get really crazy, Reduce Person is also good for this. If you get a Recitation, that helps too. I'd just use sculpted glitterdust + evards to lock down evading rogues: evasion is rarely paired with a high grapple modifier (it's sometimes paired with a high escape artist, but in my experience, not usually high enough). I don't see any room in the L1 spells to fit in Guided Shot or Reduce Person: all the current picks look pretty good and synergize nicely with the metamagic (assuming Quicken is coming up at L12). Heroism is a good spell though, and might be worth considering at L3 (a sorc can cast it on multiple PCs).
Mattastrophic 12-22-07, 07:05 PM	If he's not looking to damage the demons/evaders, Empowered Ray of Enfeeblement w/ Assay Resistance and battlefield control are pretty spot-on. -Matt is recalling the time he ganked a Marilith by 12 Strength.
solbergb 12-22-07, 11:41 PM	Ow, that's tough (my sorc played in Perrenland for the first few years, I can sympathize). Demons are hard to hurt with arcane magic (all good saves, resistance 10 at least to every element, and SR). Yeah. This is why Olivia has two bags of 15 holy water vials for use with TK and a bless weapon oil for her whirling blade. She stopped bothering with magic missile on outsiders a long time ago unless she's in mopup mode and just wants to pretend to be contributing. Although the adventure where the paladin loaned me his fancy holy sword because the plot device in the mod was a Holy Avenger was pretty cool. The time when I did a sculpted and quickened whirling blade to clear away most of the mirror images on a half dozen outsiders, I also smacked them for half decent damage :) The 2 archers and 2 melee were very happy with me in that fight. First got rid of the images then rescued an archer so he could shoot, then stuck enemy spellcaster in solid fog costing him two rounds to get out where he got butchered by waiting party members... We were also supported by an earthdreamer cleric who would pop out of the ground and hit us with augmented, empowered and I think Magic of the Landed insignias of healing. We were all pretty happy with him too.
solbergb 12-22-07, 11:44 PM	I'm still not sure arc of lightning is worth one of the four ever L5 spells-known slots, unless it's desired for thematic reasons, much less one of the first two. As with most things it depends where he's feeling the pain. He can't seem to hit with ranged touch attacks, he has sculpt he's got no SR options and he has energy substitution. Some kind of SR=no area energy spell to make use of those feats and give him more energy options is a better option on him than it would be on most sorcerers. (he now would have fire, acid and electricity, and while demons are immune to electricity, devils have no defense against it except SR) It's more likely a level 13 or 15 pick, as he needs L7 slots to empower it. But if his group is like Azzies where he can't trust the party to kill things if he cripples them, he may need it sooner. If he feels he needs it now it isn't like he can't pick wall of force or mass fly or teleport at level 11, just one level from now. I do think this is a spell this char will take at some point, given his feat mix and past experiences.
copperwyrmling 12-22-07, 11:56 PM	He can't seem to hit with ranged touch attacks, he has sculpt he's got no SR options and he has energy substitution. Some kind of SR=no area energy spell to make use of those feats and give him more energy options is a better option on him than it would be on most sorcerers. (he now would have fire, acid and electricity, and while demons are immune to electricity, devils have no defense against it except SR) True, but I imagine in the BK it's mostly demons (being Iuz-land) - I could be wrong of course, I've only played in the Iuz metaregion, not the BK. He has good metamagic for Arc of Lightning yes, but the Sculpt and Empower won't come into play for a few levels yet. But if his group is like Azzies where he can't trust the party to kill things if he cripples them, he may need it sooner. Mind you, that's Azi's old group, plus it sometimes happens with randomly assorted convention tables... her most regular play group now is the PST online group, where she really doesn't need direct damage very often ;) (Grrr, too-short combats. I want a fight where Az split-ray-enervating something and then Mareyl Holy Wording it doesn't feel like horrible overkill... maybe Taking Flight ;) ) If he feels he needs it now it isn't like he can't pick wall of force or mass fly or teleport at level 11, just one level from now. I do think this is a spell this char will take at some point, given his feat mix and past experiences. Sure... I'm just not seeing it as much better than energy-subbed empowered fireball, if he picks up Assay SR. It would be nice vs devils: I'd assumed you don't run into those in the BK (as they don't seem to show up in Iuz metaregionals), but you have played there, and I have not :weep: I guess it would be nice to have both acid and electricity SR:no damage options vs golems: with acid and electricity you should be able to find an element that doesn't heal them.
solbergb 12-23-07, 12:25 AM	Sure... I'm just not seeing it as much better than energy-subbed empowered fireball, if he picks up Assay SR. It would be nice vs devils: I'd assumed you don't run into those in the BK (as they don't seem to show up in Iuz metaregionals), but you have played there, and I have not :weep: The horned society is getting active again and there have been other adventure paths that involved devils In two conventions in the BK, playing BK regionals I've personally run into: imps hellcats bone devils ice devils barbed devils Erynes (a social encounter though) I'm sure if I played at other APL's, bearded devils would have appeared. Plus I got a curse in a Y5 mod that makes Baatzu invisible to my character, courtesy of Asmodeous himself. There are a lot of demons in the BK, but that doesn't mean there isn't plenty of work for the Baatzu too :)
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 12:30 AM	Fair enough. That does make it a better option. (In Perrenland, we only ever fought demons, at least up to the time I left.) Devils also tend to be a bit harder to hit with ranged-touch spells than demons: their Dex is often quite decent.
solbergb 12-23-07, 12:37 AM	some high end devils also have deflection bonuses or are pretty powerful without being size large.
magebeast 12-23-07, 12:39 AM	How would you adjudicate a scultped Arc of Lightning?
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 12:43 AM	How would you adjudicate a scultped Arc of Lightning? When I looked at this before, it seemed to me that Sculpt replaces the area entry, which means it also removes the need for anchor points. Expect table variation, though: I think it's ambiguous.
solbergb 12-23-07, 12:49 AM	At my table, it would replace the area entry, so no anchor points. I would expect that to be a fairly common ruling. At some tables the area might still be constrained by the anchor points somehow, but you might be able to form a 20' spread between the anchors, for example. That is probably the most likely major variation. At a few tables, especially late in a convention you'll break the brain of the GM and he'll ask you to pretty please not sculpt it so he doesn't have to figure out what happens.
MwaO 12-23-07, 11:50 AM	When I looked at this before, it seemed to me that Sculpt replaces the area entry, which means it also removes the need for anchor points. Expect table variation, though: I think it's ambiguous. Hmm. I don't think it replaces the area entry - it is very specific that it just changes the shape. "The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except its shape." The anchor points aren't part of the shape - they just define where the shape is.
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 01:41 PM	Hmm. I don't think it replaces the area entry - it is very specific that it just changes the shape. "The sculpted spell works normally in all respects except its shape." The anchor points aren't part of the shape - they just define where the shape is. They're part of the area entry, which (imo) defines the spell's shape. The first line in Sculpt is "You can alter the area of your spells". But like I said, ETV. I'm interested to hear how the "anchor points remain" ruling works with the four 10ft cubes: do you need to put two cubes on the anchor points, but the others can be anywhere within spell range?
MwaO 12-23-07, 02:14 PM	They're part of the area entry, which (imo) defines the spell's shape. The first line in Sculpt is "You can alter the area of your spells". But like I said, ETV. I'm interested to hear how the "anchor points remain" ruling works with the four 10ft cubes: do you need to put two cubes on the anchor points, but the others can be anywhere within spell range? "Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." The shape is different than the point of origin by the rules. Arc of Lightning has a relatively standard shape(Line), but unusual point of origin(i.e. not a grid intersection, but two targets). Sculpt Spell only affects the shape, not the origin point. You need to have the anchor points touching the spell area. If one of your cubes is off by itself, it isn't touching the area between the targets. You can stack the cubes however you like, they just need to be touching another cube. Looks like some of us look at the rules more strictly than others ;)
solbergb 12-23-07, 02:27 PM	The thing is, where a spell starts depends on the shape. And you are incorrect, sculpt spell DOES affect the origin point. Lines and cones start from your fingertips. Spreads start from the center grid intersection. Cylinders start from the top circle and go downward. Shapeable spells and the four cubes don't start anywhere, per FAQ ruling don't have to be together. Arc lightning has an unusual start location but after you sculpt it, it's no different from a lightning bolt turned into a lightning ball. It's still limited by the 120' range but doesn't have to start at your fingertips. Reversing it, a fireball sculpted into a cone effect MUST start at your fingertips, its normal targeting and range notwithstanding. That said, I think some GM's will insist that the spell will have to be "between" two anchor points somehow. Eg, the four cubes could be placed anywhere on theline, the center for spread would be anywhere on the line, line and cone probably don't work unless the caster is on the line blah blah. Details vary by GM.
copperwyrmling 12-23-07, 02:40 PM	EDIT: solbergb beat me to it... "Regardless of the shape of the area, you select the point where the spell originates, but otherwise you don’t control which creatures or objects the spell affects. The point of origin of a spell is always a grid intersection." The shape is different than the point of origin by the rules. Arc of Lightning has a relatively standard shape(Line), but unusual point of origin(i.e. not a grid intersection, but two targets). Sculpt Spell only affects the shape, not the origin point. So you think that the example of changing lightning bolt to fireball shape means the fireball shape has to be centered on you? From the PHB p.175-176, each standard shape works in a particular way with respect to the point of origin, the two are not really independent. - "Most spells that affect an area function as a burst, emanation or spread. In each case, you select the spell's point of origin and measure its effect from that point." - "When casting a cylinder-shaped spell, you select the spell's point of origin. This point is the center of a horizontal circle, filling a cylinder." - "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate." I think it leads to a far simpler and more consistent interpretation to say that Sculpt Spell just rewrites the Area entry. This also eliminates the question of whether it works on spells which affect an area, but are Effect spells.
MwaO 12-23-07, 03:05 PM	So you think that the example of changing lightning bolt to fireball shape means the fireball shape has to be centered on you? Just because the flavor text of a line/cone is that it originates from you doesn't mean you're actually picking yourself for the grid intersection point. To have a lightning bolt arc off your fingers at targets 120' away makes sense. To have a lightning bolt almost hit you is silly. What it really means that you, as per the spell Lightning Bolt, have a range of 120'. You pick a grid intersection 120' away from you, and the bolt of lightning goes from your finger to that point. You don't pick your finger as the target point. So the area of the fireball shape is based on wherever that point is. Ditto for Cones.
JamesMaissen 12-23-07, 10:26 PM	—— 3rd-Level Spells —— Fireball Haste Unluck While you consider your 5th level spell, also note that you get to change, for free, a 3rd level spell. May I suggest that you ditch unluck? I'm *not* a fan of this spell. It's close range, SR = YES, round/level spell that's a will negates. If they fail the will save then they suffer penalties. In my book if you fail a will save then you should be toasted. If you don't take Mass Fly for your 5th level spell then swap this out for normal Fly. Otherwise consider all the fun 3rd level spells that are out there for you to choose from and go with what suits you best. Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Displacement, Heroism, Arcane Sight, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle vs Evil (et al), and a few others are all good choices. -James
magebeast 12-23-07, 10:32 PM	While you consider your 5th level spell, also note that you get to change, for free, a 3rd level spell. May I suggest that you ditch unluck? I'm *not* a fan of this spell. It's close range, SR = YES, round/level spell that's a will negates. If they fail the will save then they suffer penalties. In my book if you fail a will save then you should be toasted. If you don't take Mass Fly for your 5th level spell then swap this out for normal Fly. Otherwise consider all the fun 3rd level spells that are out there for you to choose from and go with what suits you best. Phantom Steed, Leomund's Tiny Hut, Displacement, Heroism, Arcane Sight, Stinking Cloud, Magic Circle vs Evil (et al), and a few others are all good choices. -James I'll think about it. It's a pretty mean spell, in my opinion, because you have to roll twice all dice rolled - including damage done. If I can make it stick on a caster (unlikely, I know) that can be pretty mean for their damage, and most BDFs don't have great will saves which means they essentially have to hit twice to land every blow. RE: The sculpt thing I'll just ask my DMs at the beginning of my games, if I get arc of lightning, what their thoughts are on it.
dkay807 12-23-07, 11:05 PM	Although the adventure where the paladin loaned me his fancy holy sword because the plot device in the mod was a Holy Avenger was pretty cool. The time when I did a sculpted and quickened whirling blade to clear away most of the mirror images on a half dozen outsiders, I also smacked them for half decent damage :) This wasn't BK by any chance, was it? :) I have SUCH a funny story about our experience with that mod! Sadly, I can't post any spoilers until like... 7 days from now.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-23-07, 11:15 PM	I'll think about it. It's a pretty mean spell, in my opinion, because you have to roll twice all dice rolled - including damage done. If I can make it stick on a caster (unlikely, I know) that can be pretty mean for their damage, and most BDFs don't have great will saves which means they essentially have to hit twice to land every blow. RE: The sculpt thing I'll just ask my DMs at the beginning of my games, if I get arc of lightning, what their thoughts are on it. I second the notion of ditching unluck. Honestly, if you can make an enemy fail a will save, you can do MUCH worse to them than just making them roll twice. Even slow is generally better than unluck generally, because it's a multi-target spell, and eliminates full attack potential. I'll take a max of one potential hit over a handful of potential hits any day. Granted slow is less useful on casters than unluck, but you'll have much more potential use of slow than unluck. Anticipate Teleportation is another good one, as long as no other party members plan on porting near you. Bands of Steel is a reflex save or suck spell, and while it only works on medium or smaller enemies, it can take them completely out of combat for at least 1 round if they are able to immediately break free, plus there's no SR on it. Greater Mage Armor is nice defensively, if you don't plan on investing in bracers. Stony Grasp is nice if you find yourself outside often...grapple enemy casters if they are unfortunate enough to be standing on the ground. And that's my thoughts on alternate 3rd level spells over unluck for you. As far as 5th level spells...You could ditch unluck and grab hold monster. It's a real will save or you're out, though it is mind affecting and only works on living creatures...Waves of Fatigue is nice for nerfing chargers...no save, only SR, fatigue's anything. Vitriolic Sphere is a nasty bit of area damage over time, no SR, reflex partial. And asside from other posters suggestions...I think that's that...
solbergb 12-24-07, 11:33 AM	This wasn't BK by any chance, was it? :) I have SUCH a funny story about our experience with that mod! Sadly, I can't post any spoilers until like... 7 days from now. Yes it was, and we had a blast in that module, especially the finale where our paladin and his flying mount got to duke it out solo with the BBEG that was well..you know why that would be fun for a paladin. It was so cool the rest of us pretty much cleaned up minions and did support stuff, although near the end we had actions free to try (generally ineffectively) to help directly.