Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cetiken 10-12-07, 12:39 AM	So I'm thinking about building a Radiant Cheelord of Pelor (for da GHR). Str: 10 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 14 The plan is to be a super cleric with turning and support casting. The reason for the even int is that I don't expect to reach 12th level (i think CGH ends at around that) - though if it ends before 8th i might as well drop it down to 15 and boost str a bit). Skills: Concentration, Healing (at least 5 ranks), Know: Relegion (9 Ranks) then catch up what I can with spellcraft. 1 Cleric - Augment Healing, Divine Ward, Sun and Healing Domain 2 Cleric 3 Cleric - Extra Turing, Spontanious Restoration ACF (sacraficing healing domain power) 4 Cleric 5 Cleric 6 Cleric - feet? possibly Leadership 7 Raidiant Servant of Goober 8+ Raidiant servant of Pelor Thoughts? suggestions?
JamesMaissen 10-12-07, 02:07 AM	I would consider alternatives to taking more than just the first level of Radiant Servant. Sacred Exorcist works very well.. consecrated presence is a very nice thing to have for a turning cleric. -James
Mattastrophic 10-12-07, 02:57 AM	Honestly... You sound like you're insulting your own build. If you think Radiant Servant of Pelor is too overpowered before your first module, you're probably not going to have fun playing one. -Matt
solbergb 10-12-07, 12:25 PM	Also I wouldn't be focused on what your char does at level 7+. You are likely going to spend a lot of the remaining campaign in the level 1-6 range. New characters should be designed to work well in those ranges too.
magebeast 10-12-07, 06:45 PM	Also I wouldn't be focused on what your char does at level 7+. You are likely going to spend a lot of the remaining campaign in the level 1-6 range. New characters should be designed to work well in those ranges too. Anyone who hasn't yet played Barrow could probably get into the 12-14ish range pretty easily with a single character. All of Greyhawk Ruins is supposed to put you at 5. Play Barrow and some cores/regionals to get to 8, play Castle Greyhawk and you're up there.
Sieylianna 10-13-07, 11:02 AM	Anyone who hasn't yet played Barrow could probably get into the 12-14ish range pretty easily with a single character. All of Greyhawk Ruins is supposed to put you at 5. Play Barrow and some cores/regionals to get to 8, play Castle Greyhawk and you're up there. The problem with this approach is that you need a full table of people who fall into this category. Plus you need to complete Greyhawk Ruins before you can continue through the loop and you're likely to run out of time (and potentially interest, especially from the other players) before you have a chance to get everything in before the campaign ends. Ed
Mattastrophic 10-13-07, 01:21 PM	Plus, why would you want to power-level a brand-new character? Just play your primary. -Matt is down to one LG character now.
copperwyrmling 10-13-07, 02:16 PM	Plus, why would you want to power-level a brand-new character? Just play your primary. -Matt is down to one LG character now. For me, it's because my PC who was L2-3 (can't remember) when the announcement came out (a) has cool abilities that come online at every level from 1 to 9, (b) I don't expect anything remotely similar to her build to be possible in 4e for a long time, and (c) there are a bunch of low-APL play opportunities that my high-level PCs can't take advantage of. Basically I'm playing the APL 14-16 games with my L15 cleric + L14 sorc, the ones that cap at 12 with my L10 dervish where possible (I also want to do Demonweb Pits with him), and my L6 sorc and L3 druid/fighter cavalry get the APL 2-8 games and the low-APL adaptables (plus whatever games with big APL ranges I couldn't find tables for at high APL). I'm hoping to run my fighter/druid through Barrow and my low-level sorc through Greyhawk Ruins. The announcement of 4e meant that two of my existing PCs went into immediate retirement - my L2 wizard is such an iconic D&D build that she really should be just as playable in 4e, and she wasn't especially tied to Greyhawk, so she'll probably be my first LFR character if I play it. My L1 rogue was going to be an unseen seer archer, but starting a brand-new character with a complex build that peaked late when I already had two PCs in the APL 2-8 range just seemed like a bad idea. I was going to play a kobold warmage in Greyhawk Ruins, but the 4e announcement entirely removed my motivation to play the Greyhawk Ruins arc - I have a spare kobold card if anyone wants it ;) Getting back to the thread topic: the build looks fine, provided you're happy to play medic/support - be aware that you won't be doing a lot of offensive casting at low levels, your actions in most fights at L1-2 will probably be something like "I cast Bless and then aid the fighter's attack while waiting for people to get hurt". I might be tempted to take a domain other than Healing, especially if you want to be more casterish, since the Radiant Servant powers won't come online for a while - not sure how the Spontaneous Restoration ACF works though. Steady Concentration isn't a bad feat for later on, and Domain Spontaneity is good if you have the right domains, as is metamagic - Empower and Quicken are probably the best, or Extend if you can't find rods of it. If you get that far, Radiant Servant 5 is pretty nice for the extra domain, I'd value it higher than Consecrated Presence from the fifth level of Sacred Exorcist.
cetiken 10-14-07, 04:46 PM	Plus, why would you want to power-level a brand-new character? Just play your primary. Cause its fun?
magebeast 10-14-07, 08:49 PM	Plus, why would you want to power-level a brand-new character? Just play your primary. -Matt is down to one LG character now. Because I'm sick my other characters and I think this new one would be more fun?
Hariman 10-14-07, 11:18 PM	Plus, why would you want to power-level a brand-new character? Just play your primary. -Matt is down to one LG character now. I'm seriously considering that same approach. Barring character #2 for Greyhawk Ruins, who will be either a Kobold Beguiler or a Kobold Singer of Cheesecordance. I have a sorcerer that I could level up to 5 or 6 for Red Hand of Doom, but I'm not even sure if RHoD is worth it. Which probably means I shouldn't play, as my heart really isn't in it. Unless I could get a Kobold into it, THAT would be fun. So, most likely, 2 characters. Also, I understand the sick of old characters feeling. Sometimes, you just wish you could rebuild your character from the ground up to play something different or correct past mistakes.
_metz_ 10-14-07, 11:57 PM	I'm seriously considering that same approach. Kobold Singer of Cheesecordance. They are good, but I wouldn't call them 'cheese'.
Mattastrophic 10-15-07, 11:40 AM	It's funny how there are people out there who use the term "cheesy" when trying to brag about their builds. -Matt
JamesMaissen 10-15-07, 02:05 PM	It's funny how there are people out there who use the term "cheesy" when trying to brag about their builds. -Matt I think the term (and others like it) are bandied about far too easily so it's no wonder that they become migrate from being an insult to merely meaning 'powerful'. -James
Hariman 10-15-07, 09:20 PM	I think the term (and others like it) are bandied about far too easily so it's no wonder that they become migrate from being an insult to merely meaning 'powerful'. -James Also, the only thing lost when you go into Singer of Concordance is turning progression. Which, in many encounters, will be useless anyway. Heck, you don't need turning progression to fuel divine feats. It's not as bad as Radiant Servant, but it's an upper tier prestige class for it's defensive ability.
_metz_ 10-16-07, 12:00 AM	Also, the only thing lost when you go into Singer of Concordance is turning progression. Which, in many encounters, will be useless anyway. Heck, you don't need turning progression to fuel divine feats. It's not as bad as Radiant Servant, but it's an upper tier prestige class for it's defensive ability. Upper Tier doesn't equal cheese. Cheese was (originally) a gaming term for something that was inherently game unbalancing or far too good. Radiant Servant was this as it was the ONLY PrC that gave a cleric everything it already had, plus more free stuff. Normally you trade something for specialisation. It was just an improvement on a normal cleric. Singer of Concordance is Funky, but it won't blow up the APL appropriate Undead encounter every time... Leap Attack is cheese. Frenzied Berserker is cheese. etc.
Hariman 10-16-07, 07:01 PM	Upper Tier doesn't equal cheese. Cheese was (originally) a gaming term for something that was inherently game unbalancing or far too good. Radiant Servant was this as it was the ONLY PrC that gave a cleric everything it already had, plus more free stuff. Normally you trade something for specialisation. It was just an improvement on a normal cleric. Singer of Concordance is Funky, but it won't blow up the APL appropriate Undead encounter every time... Leap Attack is cheese. Frenzied Berserker is cheese. etc. Don't forget Ultimate Magus and Abjurant Champion. Especially Abjurant Champion. A Singer of Concordance might not blow up the undead, but he'll be a better protector and healer than a regular cleric. Aspect of Healing is especially good, because it applies to ANY healing within 10 feet. That means even cure minors and +1 HP lay on hands get an additional 1d8 of healing.
_metz_ 10-17-07, 12:03 AM	Don't forget Ultimate Magus and Abjurant Champion. Especially Abjurant Champion. A Singer of Concordance might not blow up the undead, but he'll be a better protector and healer than a regular cleric. Aspect of Healing is especially good, because it applies to ANY healing within 10 feet. That means even cure minors and +1 HP lay on hands get an additional 1d8 of healing. You only get it at level 11. By then 1d8 Extra Healing is only useful out of combat or for big hits in combat (cure critical etc) Its useful. Its not breaking. Its a _good_ prestige class don't get me wrong, but its NOT cheese. A leap Attacking Pouncing Shocktrooper Druid? now thats cheese...
copperwyrmling 10-17-07, 01:22 AM	A leap Attacking Pouncing Shocktrooper Druid? now thats cheese... On a dire bat! Sure, no leap attack, but a spirited charging lance-wielding pouncing shocktrooper druid is cheesier anyway :P (She made L4 this evening. Dire bat time!)
_metz_ 10-17-07, 03:13 AM	On a dire bat! Sure, no leap attack, but a spirited charging lance-wielding pouncing shocktrooper druid is cheesier anyway :P (She made L4 this evening. Dire bat time!) Naughty Copper Wyrmling! *shakes finger at Druid*
Hariman 10-17-07, 09:48 PM	Naughty Copper Wyrmling! *shakes finger at Druid* So is a Druid X/Beastmaster 1 cheese? If it is I'll have to tease one of the local players about having a druid/beastmaster. What about a Reckless Raging Half Orc (or wood elf) Dragon Disciple/Bear Warrior?
Mattastrophic 10-18-07, 11:23 AM	Anything can seem be "cheesy" or "broken" or "unbalanced" when wielded skillfully, and when viewed by someone who doesn't have a lot of respect for others' playstyles or builds. After about a weekend of playing my Virtuoso, I had a DM calling even the Virtuoso "broken." -Matt
solbergb 10-18-07, 11:25 AM	Also a run of good luck can give greatly inflated views of what a build can do. My monk once tripped a whole stack of giants - due to a string of very good rolls. He's also been countertripped successfully by an enemy wizard....due to the d20 swing on trip. Nobody but me remembers that incident though....
copperwyrmling 10-18-07, 04:53 PM	Indeed. It also depends a lot on the group and GM you end up playing with - if they're not used to that sort of PC then your capabilities can be very surprising to them. My dervish - who is pretty optimized, albeit for an environment without Melee Weapon Mastery (it didn't exist when he was created) - once went through a day-long session of Red Hand of Doom without hitting once. I think he was L8 or so, with his attacks at +16/+11 to hit before buffs / flanking / power attack etc - I thought that was pretty good, but my d20 rolled nothing but 1's and 2's on attacks for the whole game. It was quite bizarre. On the other hand, you have the table in Europe where the party gave him +3 GMW and then opened with bardsong + Recitation (from a cleric of his deity) and he was regularly doing over 150 damage/round at L10 - which drew comments from both the GM and the other players. Playing my sorcerer Azrien with solbergb's online group, she generally feels (to me at least) like a strong contributor, but no more so than most of the other PCs. In a reasonable chunk of combats she'll do almost nothing, because the party has it wrapped up by the time it gets around to her initiative. In another chunk of combats she'll drop debuffs or battlefield control that also do nothing because the opponent dies before their next action ;) Playing her with a particular table back in my hometown, on the other hand - she was two levels below APL, and it still felt like the combats were revolving around her actions and those of the also-two-levels-below-APL druid/beastmaster.
solbergb 10-18-07, 08:21 PM	. On the other hand, you have the table in Europe where the party gave him +3 GMW and then opened with bardsong + Recitation (from a cleric of his deity) and he was regularly doing over 150 damage/round at L10 - which drew comments from both the GM and the other players.. My archer had a moment like that. He'd talked about how he was mostly a hunter, good at killing animals. Encounter one is a few dire wolves and ordinary wolves. Before he goes, the party hits him with haste, bardsong, prayer. He goes and drops half the enemies (I also got good die rolls, and they're my favored enemy) The entire party kills maybe one wolf before he gets another action. He goes and kills the rest. My comment was "Hey, with all that help, in ideal conditions, he SHOULD look really good. Just don't expect that level of performance in the rest of the module."
_metz_ 10-19-07, 01:03 AM	Indeed. It also depends a lot on the group and GM you end up playing with - if they're not used to that sort of PC then your capabilities can be very surprising to them. On the other hand, you have the table in Europe where the party gave him +3 GMW and then opened with bardsong + Recitation (from a cleric of his deity) and he was regularly doing over 150 damage/round at L10 - which drew comments from both the GM and the other players. This happened to me a couple of days ago, my 12th level Rogue did 150 damage and 10 points of strength damage on a full attack to a bad guy and one of the non regular players thought I was cheating. However, it was actually not a very optimal build at all. (I mean I have dread pirate levels, come on!) I just get 35d6 damage if all my attacks hit and can sneak attack, plus have crippling strike, and rolled well. (6d6 Sneak attack and improved two weapon fighting for the win) I was also well buffed (Haste, Bard song, Recitation, etc) so was hitting for a change... Some people aren't even that used to high APLs so are shocked when characters even just perform how they _should_ perform compared to the nasty beasties. I would love to see the look on some of their faces if I actually played an optimised build ;) But yeah, dice rolls and circumstance make a big difference, if we were fighting undead, my rogue is relegated to characterful skill monkey...
jstorrie 10-19-07, 03:14 AM	I've played about 25 straight mods of mediocrity with one of my PCs, punctuated by two interactives in which he shined: once, when he kept the whole table up for two dozen rounds with liberal applications of Sacred Healing, and the other time, when he got off a nice APL-6 full-power-attack for 30 in the surprise round, and then two more 30+ full-power-attacks the next rounds (thanks to +4 bardsong and haste, of course) to 'solo' the big bad boss of our section of the event. Granted, it–Living Spell Flame Strike–pounded him down to 2, first, but he did it, and I was satisfied. The mid-to-high APLs are generally when eyebrows start to raise, though, as that's when well-played and/or well-designed PCs begin to diverge from the pack. My Rog1/Swash1/Ftr1 may be very effective, tumbling around and Telling-Blow-critting with a Courtblade, but it isn't noticeably much more effective than the next guy's Half-orc Barbarian 3, right?
MwaO 10-19-07, 10:36 AM	My Monk Caster gets this a lot - she can readily get to a +24 Grapple score at 8th level(+4 Str, +4 BAB, +4 Size(Enlarge Person), +4 Extra Str(+6 Fist of Stone, +2 Enlarge Person), +4 Scorpion Claws, +4 Improved Grapple) I rarely do all of it because it takes 2 rounds, but when I do manage to get it off, it can be extremely surprising to a group - I can shut down many APL appropriate opponents that most people would assume are impossible to consistently grapple. But against many opponents, I'm put into the position of deciding what I want her to do - buff or attack, and if I pick the wrong one, she can also be very ineffective.
Hariman 10-22-07, 09:26 PM	The mid-to-high APLs are generally when eyebrows start to raise, though, as that's when well-played and/or well-designed PCs begin to diverge from the pack. My Rog1/Swash1/Ftr1 may be very effective, tumbling around and Telling-Blow-critting with a Courtblade, but it isn't noticeably much more effective than the next guy's Half-orc Barbarian 3, right? You mean around APLs 8 and 10, or character levels 7 to 10 right? I think that that is the point where builds really start to diverge and where certain builds start to "kick in". That's also where some of the really nice feats kick in. Like Melee weapon mastery and certain metamagic feat combos.
copperwyrmling 10-22-07, 10:03 PM	Hariman, I think around L6-10 is about where builds mostly diverge. L6 is where the differences really start to show between PCs who've stayed focused and those who've diluted their abilities too much - full-BAB types get their second attack, spontaneous casters get L3 spells, feat chains start to come together, prestige classes begin opening up. By L9-10 some of the powerful PrC abilities are coming online, more feat chains are being completed, casters are getting L5 spells and enough low-level spells that they no longer have to watch every spell slot, and so on. There are some exceptions. Cavalry builds can do jaw-dropping damage from very early levels. Another example of "dicerolls and circumstances make a lot of difference"... I did a playtest last night with my L4 cavalry druid. First combat, out in the open, she got charged before she could act, and her dire bat lost 22 of its 30 HP. She smacked the monster once (for 15 damage or so) and got out. Next round, she did a ride-by attack, and rolled a nat 1. Third round, she did a ride-by attack and hit for 53 damage. The monster died at the end of the third round. She did a bit more damage than anyone else in the party over those three rounds, but only 70 or so compared to 50ish each from the warmage and the archer over the same period (yes, we were fighting something with more than 170 HP at APL 4) - it didn't feel like she soloed the combat or anything. Second combat, she had a perfect charge line when her init came up, against a flatfooted solo bad guy. Charge, 49 damage, bad guy drops. End of encounter. (There was a nasty trap incorporated into the encounter, but it relied on having the bad guy alive - with him down it wasn't much of a threat.) Third combat, protecting the squishies was a higher priority than setting up her charge lanes ;) She did small amounts of damage with Beast Claws and used Aid Another for pretty much the entire fight.
jstorrie 10-23-07, 01:01 AM	Yeah. 8-10 is where good characters get good. Bad characters can get bad long before then, though...
Hariman 10-23-07, 04:06 AM	Yeah. 8-10 is where good characters get good. Bad characters can get bad long before then, though... And some characters/builds are mutts until they hit level 6 or 7. My rogue wizard is a prime example. At level five, he's little better than a 3rd level wizard or a second level rogue. By level 7, he'll be able to take Metamagic School Focus and Empower Spell.
_metz_ 10-23-07, 04:36 AM	Yeah. 8-10 is where good characters get good. Bad characters can get bad long before then, though... 8-10 is also where whether or not you know what you are doing makes a big difference. If you have an 8th level character that doesn't know what a tangle foot bag is, or doesn't even have spare potions of healing, than you deserve to be killed... (or even a magic weapon, I have seen an 8th level fighting character without a magic weapon, was a shock to me) DM softballing is a big contributer to this phenomenon.
solbergb 10-23-07, 12:03 PM	DM softballing is a big contributer to this phenomenon. That and oddly....good teamwork. Most parties can survive one "dead weight" character if the group has 5+ players. One reason 4 person parties are considered fragile is that if one isn't capable of pulling "iconic" weight you really have a 3 person party.... And the difficulty can be build or player skills. Sometimes both. Sometimes it's just badly suited encounter for a character that is perfectly ok in most circumstances.
_metz_ 10-23-07, 01:07 PM	That and oddly....good teamwork. Most parties can survive one "dead weight" character if the group has 5+ players. One reason 4 person parties are considered fragile is that if one isn't capable of pulling "iconic" weight you really have a 3 person party.... And the difficulty can be build or player skills. Sometimes both. Sometimes it's just badly suited encounter for a character that is perfectly ok in most circumstances. All true. good call on the good teamwork. In a home gaming group of LGers, its possible for a few players to carry the rest. The issue pops up when they all travel to a con and the less dominant players become 'that 4th character who may as well not have been there'. Its one of the intrinsic risks you run in LG. One of the reasons my Primary has a Cohort. Saved the party on numerous occasions. I am ofc not talking about the characters that aren't that useful in certain encounters, (See my Rogue and most Undead, I refused to give him caster levels) but rather those that aren't very useful at what they are SUPPOSED to be good at. e.g: a fighter who can't deal damage/battlefield control/cork (gotta be able to do at least on in my books)
JamesMaissen 10-23-07, 09:56 PM	Most parties can survive one "dead weight" character if the group has 5+ players. One reason 4 person parties are considered fragile is that if one isn't capable of pulling "iconic" weight you really have a 3 person party.... Most rounds of combat require about 3.5 active contributors for the party to handle things. Fractions counted for less than optimal contributions, as well as 'reactionary' endevours (as long as they are at least treading water so as to negate an enemy's action in effect). When you have fewer characters at the table then there is less room for slacking. -James
Hariman 10-24-07, 12:05 AM	8-10 is also where whether or not you know what you are doing makes a big difference. If you have an 8th level character that doesn't know what a tangle foot bag is, or doesn't even have spare potions of healing, than you deserve to be killed... (or even a magic weapon, I have seen an 8th level fighting character without a magic weapon, was a shock to me) DM softballing is a big contributer to this phenomenon. There's a reason my Rogue Wizard usually has a decent supply of Acids, Alchemist's Fires, and especially Holy Waters. He might be able to manage with a bow for some enemies (burning a scroll of Magic Weapon) but undead are ruinous once he's out of spells. And he's only got 7 spells before he runs out. (Barring cantrips.) Plus, he's been short on gold for a long time. If I weren't saving up for an Anklet of Translocation and Arcanist's Gloves (Or an Amulet of Aquatic Salvation) I would be buying more/better supplies. And that doesn't even include Retraining costs either.
solbergb 10-24-07, 12:14 PM	more rogues (and scouts) should use splash weapons. They're an easy way to get sneak attack in on temporarily inconvenienced enemies (blinded, greased, or flatfooted by not going yet) and are nearly guaranteed to hit - and likely do as much damage as the main attack that has to go against full AC, especially if there are DR issues) They have issues (heavy, slow to draw, short range, etc) but I've seen many an encounter where the rogue or scout could have done a much stronger contribution with them, even in the high levels (because sneak and skirmish scale)
Hariman 10-24-07, 10:32 PM	more rogues (and scouts) should use splash weapons. They're an easy way to get sneak attack in on temporarily inconvenienced enemies (blinded, greased, or flatfooted by not going yet) and are nearly guaranteed to hit - and likely do as much damage as the main attack that has to go against full AC, especially if there are DR issues) They have issues (heavy, slow to draw, short range, etc) but I've seen many an encounter where the rogue or scout could have done a much stronger contribution with them, even in the high levels (because sneak and skirmish scale) You've never seen my dice during attack rolls. I've missed so many attack rolls on Ranged Touch Attacks that I've seriously considered almost completely foregoing Rays and Orbs in favor of targeted and area spells or buffing and support spells. (I've already bought new dice and I have started preparing a mix of spells instead of mainly lesser orbs and other such spells. I think I'll buy another new D20 this Saturday too.) Going from halfling to human while losing a point of BAB doesn't help either. (-3 to ranged attack rolls.) But you are right. Splash weapons are great for delivering sneak attacks and even just adding a few points of damage here and there. (Just a few points of damage can mean the difference between a vampire misting out and another 5 rounds of combat.) I remember one combat with a huge spider. I might have only been doing 1d4+1 at the time, but I did 1d4+1 at least 4 or 5 times and was the one to score the killing blow on it. Haversacks are cheap enough that you should be able to buy one by level 5 or 6. If not earlier.