swashbuckler/fighter dervish [Archive] - Wizards Community

swashbuckler/fighter dervish [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
control freak
07-16-07, 12:54 AM i figured i want a dervish (from seeing one played at a high APL table at level 6 of dervish i believe and they walked the mod in large part to his sacred simitars) and realized that rage doesnt work with it, so i decided to make use of that required 14 int

swashbuckler1: cbt expt, TWF, Wfiness
swashbuckler2:
swashbuckler3: dodge
fighter1: moblity
fighter2: WF simitar (however you spell it)
dervish 1: ITWF
dervish 2:
dervish 3:
dervish 4: power attack or imp crit
dervish 5:
dervish 6:
dervish 7: GTWF
dervish 8:
dervish 9:
dervish 10: slashing fury (total of 14 attacks a round??? while dervish danceing)
stats

14
16
14
14
8
8

what items other then +2 stat bumpers and +1 whepons
Sieylianna
07-16-07, 04:52 PM Dervish treat scimitars as light weapons, so they can't power attack with them.

Ed
control freak
07-16-07, 05:45 PM so improved critical it is, which is great any way i was leaning to it too anyway
_metz_
07-16-07, 09:31 PM I don't think you will be doing enough damage through the mid levels quite frankly.

Some scout levels for skirmish would be good.

Fighter 4 for weapon Spec, and melee Weapon Mastery as well is a good idea.
jstorrie
07-16-07, 09:39 PM Weapon Spec & Weapon Mastery > Insightful Strike.

I am of the opinion that Brb1/Ftr4 is the best lead-in for a Dervish, relying on Extra Rage/Imp Trip before the Dervish goodies kick in and you can segue to Dance/Power Attack.
control freak
07-16-07, 09:59 PM and as for the barbarian rage thing its ok but i would like to be able to actualy rage but you cant end dance at will (unless i mis read it) just to rage

and i looked at fighter 4 it is strong but i was looking for some other 1 level dip (besides barbarian because rage seems to be most important class feature) that has full BAB but i dont see that happening (knight???)
jstorrie
07-17-07, 12:36 AM If you take Barbarian at level 1, you've got 2 bonus hit points and 8 bonus skill points, and a better skill list; you take Extra Rage as one of your level 1 feats, and retrain it out later once you have enough Dervish dances per day that you don't need to Rage anymore. Having Rage 1/day doesn't mean you can't still use Dervish dance instead...

The most important class feature from Brb1 is going to be rage, yes, in the low levels, especially as you should take Extra Rage to start. Once you're a dervish, though, there's something Barbarian offers that you'll like even more–+10 movement speed. The fast movement that Scout offers doesn't stack with Dervish (both enhancement bonuses) but the Barbarian fast movement stacks with anything. In the high-level game, when you've got +10 from Barbarian and +15 from Dervish and likely haste as well you can get going at some pretty ridiculous speeds.

I posted a build along these lines in your other Dervish thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13080454&postcount=3).

There isn't much stronger than a Brb1/FighterX tripmonkey at the low APLs, and Dervish is practically broken itself, so running Brb1/Ftr4/Dervish10 guarantees you good performance your whole career.
control freak
07-18-07, 08:44 PM the only question now is race as i see it i have 3 options

1: human the extra feat is great
2: dwarf for the con
3: half ork for the str
jstorrie
07-18-07, 09:24 PM Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want.
copper_wyrmling
07-18-07, 10:49 PM Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want.

I don't think half-orcs are awful: you just start with Int 12 Str 18 and put your first stat-bump in Int (and take Combat Expertise at L4 or later - you don't take Improved Trip). For this build, though, you're already feat-starved, so human is probably superior. I wouldn't go with a dwarf, the movement penalty is pretty painful.
_metz_
07-18-07, 10:51 PM Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want.

Grey Elves work, but yeah Human is probably the best option.
Donald_Cannith
07-18-07, 11:11 PM I think gnome could be interesting to AC it up using Titan fighting and elusive target + TWF, you deal less damage but hasve greater ac and utility
jstorrie
07-18-07, 11:27 PM Dervishes don't need higher ACs. They're already hard to hit out of the box, and they rarely end their turns next to enemies.
_metz_
07-18-07, 11:36 PM I think gnome could be interesting to AC it up using Titan fighting and elusive target + TWF, you deal less damage but hasve greater ac and utility

Gnomes have less movement, AND less strength.

You can do without the strength if you are a skirmisher/sneak attacker, but not without the speed. Dervishes are all about that.
copper_wyrmling
07-19-07, 01:20 AM Dervishes don't need higher ACs. They're already hard to hit out of the box, and they rarely end their turns next to enemies.

Er, well, sort of. They're not actually very hard to hit out of the box (light armor restriction and can't use shields, not even animated ones) - you can make them very hard to hit by sacrificing attack bonus, but that's a difficult call when your sole role in the party is melee damage (and my L9 dervish was regularly missing at APL 10 with +24 to hit before power attack or expertise). Avoiding melee full attacks is great, but archers and ray-slinging casters can still be painful.

I agree that extra AC, even touch AC, is probably not worth sacrificing Strength and move speed though.
Donald_Cannith
07-19-07, 01:57 AM wll it was an idea. asls through being able to position well elusive target is worth looking into as it=awesome
jstorrie
07-19-07, 02:33 AM Er, well, sort of. They're not actually very hard to hit out of the box (light armor restriction and can't use shields, not even animated ones) - you can make them very hard to hit by sacrificing attack bonus, but that's a difficult call when your sole role in the party is melee damage.

Eh, with a 14 or higher starting Dex, you'll easily max out the mithril chain shirt or mithril breastplate you're wearing, and then you've got the Dervish AC bonus to make up for the lack of shield, so I'd say you're doing pretty well for AC. Ray slingers will probably have a harder time hitting you than the sword-and-board guy anyway, since less of your AC comes from things that ranged touches bypass. You don't have invincible-crazy-high AC but you're pretty close to the point of diminishing returns.

I wouldn't underestimate Elaborate Parry, either; -4 to hit for +6 to AC is better than Combat Expertise, when you need the boost. Plus you have the prereqs for Melee Evasion, if touch attacks are really bothering you.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 07-16-07, 12:54 AM	i figured i want a dervish (from seeing one played at a high APL table at level 6 of dervish i believe and they walked the mod in large part to his sacred simitars) and realized that rage doesnt work with it, so i decided to make use of that required 14 int swashbuckler1: cbt expt, TWF, Wfiness swashbuckler2: swashbuckler3: dodge fighter1: moblity fighter2: WF simitar (however you spell it) dervish 1: ITWF dervish 2: dervish 3: dervish 4: power attack or imp crit dervish 5: dervish 6: dervish 7: GTWF dervish 8: dervish 9: dervish 10: slashing fury (total of 14 attacks a round??? while dervish danceing) stats 14 16 14 14 8 8 what items other then +2 stat bumpers and +1 whepons
Sieylianna 07-16-07, 04:52 PM	Dervish treat scimitars as light weapons, so they can't power attack with them. Ed
control freak 07-16-07, 05:45 PM	so improved critical it is, which is great any way i was leaning to it too anyway
_metz_ 07-16-07, 09:31 PM	I don't think you will be doing enough damage through the mid levels quite frankly. Some scout levels for skirmish would be good. Fighter 4 for weapon Spec, and melee Weapon Mastery as well is a good idea.
jstorrie 07-16-07, 09:39 PM	Weapon Spec & Weapon Mastery > Insightful Strike. I am of the opinion that Brb1/Ftr4 is the best lead-in for a Dervish, relying on Extra Rage/Imp Trip before the Dervish goodies kick in and you can segue to Dance/Power Attack.
control freak 07-16-07, 09:59 PM	and as for the barbarian rage thing its ok but i would like to be able to actualy rage but you cant end dance at will (unless i mis read it) just to rage and i looked at fighter 4 it is strong but i was looking for some other 1 level dip (besides barbarian because rage seems to be most important class feature) that has full BAB but i dont see that happening (knight???)
jstorrie 07-17-07, 12:36 AM	If you take Barbarian at level 1, you've got 2 bonus hit points and 8 bonus skill points, and a better skill list; you take Extra Rage as one of your level 1 feats, and retrain it out later once you have enough Dervish dances per day that you don't need to Rage anymore. Having Rage 1/day doesn't mean you can't still use Dervish dance instead... The most important class feature from Brb1 is going to be rage, yes, in the low levels, especially as you should take Extra Rage to start. Once you're a dervish, though, there's something Barbarian offers that you'll like even more–+10 movement speed. The fast movement that Scout offers doesn't stack with Dervish (both enhancement bonuses) but the Barbarian fast movement stacks with anything. In the high-level game, when you've got +10 from Barbarian and +15 from Dervish and likely haste as well you can get going at some pretty ridiculous speeds. I posted a build along these lines in your other Dervish thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=13080454&postcount=3). There isn't much stronger than a Brb1/FighterX tripmonkey at the low APLs, and Dervish is practically broken itself, so running Brb1/Ftr4/Dervish10 guarantees you good performance your whole career.
control freak 07-18-07, 08:44 PM	the only question now is race as i see it i have 3 options 1: human the extra feat is great 2: dwarf for the con 3: half ork for the str
jstorrie 07-18-07, 09:24 PM	Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want.
copper_wyrmling 07-18-07, 10:49 PM	Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want. I don't think half-orcs are awful: you just start with Int 12 Str 18 and put your first stat-bump in Int (and take Combat Expertise at L4 or later - you don't take Improved Trip). For this build, though, you're already feat-starved, so human is probably superior. I wouldn't go with a dwarf, the movement penalty is pretty painful.
_metz_ 07-18-07, 10:51 PM	Human. Dwarves make awful dervishes because of their slow movement speed; half-orcs make awful dervishes because they have an Int penalty. Bonus feat+bonus skill is definitely what you want. Grey Elves work, but yeah Human is probably the best option.
Donald_Cannith 07-18-07, 11:11 PM	I think gnome could be interesting to AC it up using Titan fighting and elusive target + TWF, you deal less damage but hasve greater ac and utility
jstorrie 07-18-07, 11:27 PM	Dervishes don't need higher ACs. They're already hard to hit out of the box, and they rarely end their turns next to enemies.
_metz_ 07-18-07, 11:36 PM	I think gnome could be interesting to AC it up using Titan fighting and elusive target + TWF, you deal less damage but hasve greater ac and utility Gnomes have less movement, AND less strength. You can do without the strength if you are a skirmisher/sneak attacker, but not without the speed. Dervishes are all about that.
copper_wyrmling 07-19-07, 01:20 AM	Dervishes don't need higher ACs. They're already hard to hit out of the box, and they rarely end their turns next to enemies. Er, well, sort of. They're not actually very hard to hit out of the box (light armor restriction and can't use shields, not even animated ones) - you can make them very hard to hit by sacrificing attack bonus, but that's a difficult call when your sole role in the party is melee damage (and my L9 dervish was regularly missing at APL 10 with +24 to hit before power attack or expertise). Avoiding melee full attacks is great, but archers and ray-slinging casters can still be painful. I agree that extra AC, even touch AC, is probably not worth sacrificing Strength and move speed though.
Donald_Cannith 07-19-07, 01:57 AM	wll it was an idea. asls through being able to position well elusive target is worth looking into as it=awesome
jstorrie 07-19-07, 02:33 AM	Er, well, sort of. They're not actually very hard to hit out of the box (light armor restriction and can't use shields, not even animated ones) - you can make them very hard to hit by sacrificing attack bonus, but that's a difficult call when your sole role in the party is melee damage. Eh, with a 14 or higher starting Dex, you'll easily max out the mithril chain shirt or mithril breastplate you're wearing, and then you've got the Dervish AC bonus to make up for the lack of shield, so I'd say you're doing pretty well for AC. Ray slingers will probably have a harder time hitting you than the sword-and-board guy anyway, since less of your AC comes from things that ranged touches bypass. You don't have invincible-crazy-high AC but you're pretty close to the point of diminishing returns. I wouldn't underestimate Elaborate Parry, either; -4 to hit for +6 to AC is better than Combat Expertise, when you need the boost. Plus you have the prereqs for Melee Evasion, if touch attacks are really bothering you.