Target for Saves? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Target for Saves? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
DonShard
05-02-07, 06:53 PM Since I haven't played past APL 4 yet, I need some advice.

What are good target numbers for saves? I believe I heard once that saves equal or higher than APL was a good aim.
dkay807
05-02-07, 11:50 PM I don't think you should worry too much about coming up with a formula for saving throws.

Rather than that, consider the different effects you might encounter at different APLs and compare your saving throws accordingly.

For example...

APL 2 - Spellcasters will typically have a 16 in their primary stat and might be casting up to third level spells. So Saving throw DCs will vary from 13 to 17 (depending on the spell level, spell focus, etc)

APL 4 - Spellcasters will typically have a 16 or 18 in their primary stat and could be casting fourth level spells. 14-19 DC variance (though 19 is pretty high for APL 4)

As APLs go up, DCs don't go up by too much. You shouldn't expect to encounter spells with DCs higher than 23-24 as NPCs can't really afford to max out their DCs.

Also consider that at APL 6 and 8, you'll begin to encounter potential save-or-die encounters where you'll need a decent fortitude save. The generic fort-save-or-die number is 15, but can go up a little depending on the effect. Bodaks are 15... Assassins will typically be around 15 or 16 as well, scaling up directly with APL, an additional +1 every now and then as int might go up. Also at APL 6 and 8, you'll start to see Confusion and Suggestion effects quite often. Expect an approximate DC of 16-19 on these. Many BDFs have a solid chance of failing these.

There are also some extreme DCs to watch out for - expect to typically fail these unless you're geared to handle them. An example is Dragon Breath weapons... the save DCs are really high. So much so that a full ranger or rogue can't usually make them - you need to really have a twinked out save to do it.

I won't do the math for you - however, you should be able to take a wholistic view of your saves at each APL and tell where you are on the scale.
DroidTrooper
05-03-07, 10:55 AM I generally look at is if you are keeping yourself ahead of the Good save line then you are doing fairly well. The good save line being 2+level/2 (poor save line is level/3). If you are below it you should not be expecting to make most of your saves. If you are below the poor save line, woe is you.
dkay807
05-03-07, 03:08 PM I generally look at is if you are keeping yourself ahead of the Good save line then you are doing fairly well. The good save line being 2+level/2 (poor save line is level/3). If you are below it you should not be expecting to make most of your saves. If you are below the poor save line, woe is you.

When you say "2+Level/2," do you mean "(2+Level)/2?" In the first case, as a 12th level PC, that means that that the good save line is +8 on your saves... in the second, it's +8. Neither is good by any means.
DroidTrooper
05-03-07, 03:34 PM The good save line is what the a class with a good save would have as their base modifier. ie 2 for level 1, and +1 for every even level after that (or 2+level/2).

The traditional save equation is 10 +effective level/2 + attribute modifier. You'll see this repeatedly through D&D. So long as your save is going up by 1 point every 2 levels you should be keeping up with the increase in difficulty of saves. As in your percentage chance of making it should be about the same.

The question really should be what do you consider reasonable or "good" odds of succes. 90%/75%/50% etc. If you want to be around 90% you want you save to be 8 + level/2 + attribute modifier.
Rerednaw
05-03-07, 03:39 PM The good save line is what the a class with a good save would have as their base modifier. ie 2 for level 1, and +1 for every even level after that (or 2+level/2).
The traditional save equation is 10 +effective level/2 + attribute modifier. You'll see this repeatedly through D&D. So long as your save is going up by 1 point every 2 levels you should be keeping up with the increase in difficulty of saves. As in your percentage chance of making it should be about the same.

The question really should be what do you consider reasonable or "good" odds of succes. 90%/75%/50% etc. If you want to be around 90% you want you save to be 8 + level/2.

Expect exceptions. Case in point: first encounter, APL4, save DC?

28. :eek:
DroidTrooper
05-03-07, 03:51 PM Whatever is causing you to make that save is not tiered for APL4. ie its something you are suppose to fail. More than likely you are suppose to fail it even if playing at the highest allowable apl.

I'd be willing to bet that whatever is generating that effect has its DC calculated pretty close to 10 + effective character level/2 + ability mod.
solbergb
05-03-07, 07:58 PM I think the game is roughly scaled around a good save with 14 in the attribute and buying a +1 resistance item upgrade every 3 levels until 15

save DC is roughly 16 in attribute plus statbumps and +2 item every 6 levels or so, with +1 per two levels, rounded up.

With these formulas you get roughly

1. 4 vs dc14
2. 4 vs dc14
3. 6 vs dc15
4. 7 vs dc15
5. 7 vs dc16
6. 9 vs dc17
7. 9 vs dc18
8. 10 vs dc19
9. 11 vs dc20
10. 12 vs dc20
11. 12 vs dc21
12. 14 vs dc22
13. 14 vs dc23
14. 15 vs dc23
15. 15 vs dc24
16. 16 vs dc25

You will note that the "good" save is on the right side of the bell curve, with
a minimum of 55% success chance and often better. Combined with temporary save boosts (eg, haste, prayer) and the fact that not all enemies with save DC's are primary casters, the PC with a good save won't fail that save very often, or only against things advanced in such a way as to get unusually high DC's.
seem to fail it very often.
Timlagor
05-03-07, 08:06 PM Looks more like a Bard Fascinate to me.

DCs go up faster than 1/2levels because Attributes go up too (sometiems very fast on NPCs).

Save mod = APL is not a bad measure for a decent bonus -you certainly need to be above that to consider yourself excellent.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DonShard 05-02-07, 06:53 PM	Since I haven't played past APL 4 yet, I need some advice. What are good target numbers for saves? I believe I heard once that saves equal or higher than APL was a good aim.
dkay807 05-02-07, 11:50 PM	I don't think you should worry too much about coming up with a formula for saving throws. Rather than that, consider the different effects you might encounter at different APLs and compare your saving throws accordingly. For example... APL 2 - Spellcasters will typically have a 16 in their primary stat and might be casting up to third level spells. So Saving throw DCs will vary from 13 to 17 (depending on the spell level, spell focus, etc) APL 4 - Spellcasters will typically have a 16 or 18 in their primary stat and could be casting fourth level spells. 14-19 DC variance (though 19 is pretty high for APL 4) As APLs go up, DCs don't go up by too much. You shouldn't expect to encounter spells with DCs higher than 23-24 as NPCs can't really afford to max out their DCs. Also consider that at APL 6 and 8, you'll begin to encounter potential save-or-die encounters where you'll need a decent fortitude save. The generic fort-save-or-die number is 15, but can go up a little depending on the effect. Bodaks are 15... Assassins will typically be around 15 or 16 as well, scaling up directly with APL, an additional +1 every now and then as int might go up. Also at APL 6 and 8, you'll start to see Confusion and Suggestion effects quite often. Expect an approximate DC of 16-19 on these. Many BDFs have a solid chance of failing these. There are also some extreme DCs to watch out for - expect to typically fail these unless you're geared to handle them. An example is Dragon Breath weapons... the save DCs are really high. So much so that a full ranger or rogue can't usually make them - you need to really have a twinked out save to do it. I won't do the math for you - however, you should be able to take a wholistic view of your saves at each APL and tell where you are on the scale.
DroidTrooper 05-03-07, 10:55 AM	I generally look at is if you are keeping yourself ahead of the Good save line then you are doing fairly well. The good save line being 2+level/2 (poor save line is level/3). If you are below it you should not be expecting to make most of your saves. If you are below the poor save line, woe is you.
dkay807 05-03-07, 03:08 PM	I generally look at is if you are keeping yourself ahead of the Good save line then you are doing fairly well. The good save line being 2+level/2 (poor save line is level/3). If you are below it you should not be expecting to make most of your saves. If you are below the poor save line, woe is you. When you say "2+Level/2," do you mean "(2+Level)/2?" In the first case, as a 12th level PC, that means that that the good save line is +8 on your saves... in the second, it's +8. Neither is good by any means.
DroidTrooper 05-03-07, 03:34 PM	The good save line is what the a class with a good save would have as their base modifier. ie 2 for level 1, and +1 for every even level after that (or 2+level/2). The traditional save equation is 10 +effective level/2 + attribute modifier. You'll see this repeatedly through D&D. So long as your save is going up by 1 point every 2 levels you should be keeping up with the increase in difficulty of saves. As in your percentage chance of making it should be about the same. The question really should be what do you consider reasonable or "good" odds of succes. 90%/75%/50% etc. If you want to be around 90% you want you save to be 8 + level/2 + attribute modifier.
Rerednaw 05-03-07, 03:39 PM	The good save line is what the a class with a good save would have as their base modifier. ie 2 for level 1, and +1 for every even level after that (or 2+level/2). The traditional save equation is 10 +effective level/2 + attribute modifier. You'll see this repeatedly through D&D. So long as your save is going up by 1 point every 2 levels you should be keeping up with the increase in difficulty of saves. As in your percentage chance of making it should be about the same. The question really should be what do you consider reasonable or "good" odds of succes. 90%/75%/50% etc. If you want to be around 90% you want you save to be 8 + level/2. Expect exceptions. Case in point: first encounter, APL4, save DC? 28. :eek:
DroidTrooper 05-03-07, 03:51 PM	Whatever is causing you to make that save is not tiered for APL4. ie its something you are suppose to fail. More than likely you are suppose to fail it even if playing at the highest allowable apl. I'd be willing to bet that whatever is generating that effect has its DC calculated pretty close to 10 + effective character level/2 + ability mod.
solbergb 05-03-07, 07:58 PM	I think the game is roughly scaled around a good save with 14 in the attribute and buying a +1 resistance item upgrade every 3 levels until 15 save DC is roughly 16 in attribute plus statbumps and +2 item every 6 levels or so, with +1 per two levels, rounded up. With these formulas you get roughly 1. 4 vs dc14 2. 4 vs dc14 3. 6 vs dc15 4. 7 vs dc15 5. 7 vs dc16 6. 9 vs dc17 7. 9 vs dc18 8. 10 vs dc19 9. 11 vs dc20 10. 12 vs dc20 11. 12 vs dc21 12. 14 vs dc22 13. 14 vs dc23 14. 15 vs dc23 15. 15 vs dc24 16. 16 vs dc25 You will note that the "good" save is on the right side of the bell curve, with a minimum of 55% success chance and often better. Combined with temporary save boosts (eg, haste, prayer) and the fact that not all enemies with save DC's are primary casters, the PC with a good save won't fail that save very often, or only against things advanced in such a way as to get unusually high DC's. seem to fail it very often.
Timlagor 05-03-07, 08:06 PM	Looks more like a Bard Fascinate to me. DCs go up faster than 1/2levels because Attributes go up too (sometiems very fast on NPCs). Save mod = APL is not a bad measure for a decent bonus -you certainly need to be above that to consider yourself excellent.