The Ninja of Nyrond [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Ninja of Nyrond [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Tengu
07-30-07, 07:29 PM I would like to build a ninja like character (not the class ninja but more like the real legend). So, I am thinking of a smart (high INT) and quick (high DEX) fighter type using lots of skills when fighting like bluff (feint) and intimidate. So, here are some of my ideas so far:

Weapon: Spiked Chain – gives reach but also can be used at 5’. Good for tripping and disarming as well. But mostly, it is close to traditional ninja weapons like “kama with a chain” and “chain with iron weights” and has the multi-purpose feel about it that historic ninjas really looked for…

Key Skills:
-Most important ones: Tumble, Intimidate, Bluff
-Also important ones: Escape Artist, Jump (to add to tumble), Move Silently, Hide, Gather Info.

Feats: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), combat expertise, improve trip, improve feint, combat reflexes.

Class: Thinking of starting with swashbuckler to get weapon finesse, the fighter 1 and 2 for the feats but where to go after that, it is important to me to keep the key skills (see above) as class skills. Ninja like classes:

- Mountebank (my current favorite): gain tongue of devil to help bluff, sneak attack, and sideslip (not only is this a dimension door move ability but it’s an IMIDIATE action not just a move or standard action – wow, get out of jail free), and alter ego – which is very ninja like. Down side, lower BAB, need to take deceitful feat.

- Vigilante: Batman Ninja? (2nd favorite): ninja like spells such as swift invisibility; fast hide feat, dimensional anchor, mettle. Downside: Need to put points in CHA for spells, the Vigilante smite is almost impossible to get the actual requirements in place to use it.

- Thief-Acrobat: Lots of acrobat feats but weaker BAB.

- Street Fighter: Always Ready, Sneak Attack, Stand Tough, and Uncanny Dodge

- Multiclass Rogue and Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat. So, sneak attack and goes up with Swashbuckler levels and gain evasion but loss of 1 BAB.

So, given the above, I envision a melee round at 6th level or so looking like this:
1. Feint (during move round), if success, he gets no DEX bonus to AC
2. Intimidate (if success he gets -2 to hit and on Saving Throws)
3. Trip (with a +4 for Improved Trip)
4. He’s prone (+4 to hit)
5. I attack!
6. Now I take a 5 ft. step away from him
7. Then on his turn, if he is foolish enough, he gets up – giving me an AoO, then when he takes a step toward me, another AoO.

Please let me know, what you think of the skills, feats, and Class/PrC’s as well as any tips on how to better maximize my melee opportunities.

Thanks,
Jay_Ibero_911
07-30-07, 08:00 PM I would like to build a ninja like character (not the class ninja but more like the real legend). So, I am thinking of a smart (high INT) and quick (high DEX) fighter type using lots of skills when fighting like bluff (feint) and intimidate. So, here are some of my ideas so far:

Weapon: Spiked Chain – gives reach but also can be used at 5’. Good for tripping and disarming as well. But mostly, it is close to traditional ninja weapons like “kama with a chain” and “chain with iron weights” and has the multi-purpose feel about it that historic ninjas really looked for…

Key Skills:
-Most important ones: Tumble, Intimidate, Bluff
-Also important ones: Escape Artist, Jump (to add to tumble), Move Silently, Hide, Gather Info.

Feats: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), combat expertise, improve trip, improve feint, combat reflexes.

Class: Thinking of starting with swashbuckler to get weapon finesse, the fighter 1 and 2 for the feats but where to go after that, it is important to me to keep the key skills (see above) as class skills. Ninja like classes:

- Mountebank (my current favorite): gain tongue of devil to help bluff, sneak attack, and sideslip (not only is this a dimension door move ability but it’s an IMIDIATE action not just a move or standard action – wow, get out of jail free), and alter ego – which is very ninja like. Down side, lower BAB, need to take deceitful feat.

- Vigilante: Batman Ninja? (2nd favorite): ninja like spells such as swift invisibility; fast hide feat, dimensional anchor, mettle. Downside: Need to put points in CHA for spells, the Vigilante smite is almost impossible to get the actual requirements in place to use it.

- Thief-Acrobat: Lots of acrobat feats but weaker BAB.

- Street Fighter: Always Ready, Sneak Attack, Stand Tough, and Uncanny Dodge

- Multiclass Rogue and Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat. So, sneak attack and goes up with Swashbuckler levels and gain evasion but loss of 1 BAB.

So, given the above, I envision a melee round at 6th level or so looking like this:
1. Feint (during move round), if success, he gets no DEX bonus to AC
2. Intimidate (if success he gets -2 to hit and on Saving Throws)
3. Trip (with a +4 for Improved Trip)
4. He’s prone (+4 to hit)
5. I attack!
6. Now I take a 5 ft. step away from him
7. Then on his turn, if he is foolish enough, he gets up – giving me an AoO, then when he takes a step toward me, another AoO.

Please let me know, what you think of the skills, feats, and Class/PrC’s as well as any tips on how to better maximize my melee opportunities.

Thanks,

Using intimidate to demoralize an opponent is a standard action and only leaves the foe shaken for 1 round. You might want to make use of Intimidating Strike from PHB 2 so you can intimidate with an attack and leave them shaken for the encounter. Also they will provoke an AOO from standing up, but will still be able to 5ft step next to you and attack without provoking another AOO. Also, if you want to even be able to reliably make use of trip you will need very high strength too.
jstorrie
07-30-07, 09:52 PM Would a ninja really be spending the time to demoralize and feint, when she could just get with the killing?
CdrcJsn
07-30-07, 10:30 PM Strange, but I think 4 levels of Bard would fit in. It has most of the skills you're looking for.

You won't use the group buff abilities much (well, maybe whispered to yourself), but you will love the spells.

Swift Invisibility is available as a 1st level spell.

Regular Invisibility and Mirror Image are both second level spells and are Ninja staples.

You have the same BAB and HP of a rogue and have better will saves.
_metz_
07-30-07, 11:07 PM You may want to look for Scarlett Corsair access. However the piratey theme may not be suitable.

Improved Feint as a bonus feat, and can feint as a free action. (only once every d4 rounds though)

Full BAB

Progresses Sneak attack,

Needs 8 ranks in intimidate, probably some profession sailor too though.
Lomiat
07-30-07, 11:37 PM Shadowdancer.

Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Shadowdancer/Exotic Weapon Master/Dread Commando/Nightsong Enforcer/etc.

Not only will you be able to step out of the shadows to deal death, but you'll be well on your way to the uber-madness that is Elusive Target, a very ninja-like feat (I think).

Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Staggering Strike, Elusive Target, Improved Initiative... (not necessarily in that order).
Tengu
07-31-07, 07:02 AM Would a ninja really be spending the time to demoralize and feint, when she could just get with the killing?

When I think of the historic Ninja, I think of the peasant or Samurai that yells "Ninja" drops his weapon or ho and runs away when he sees the black figure step out of the shadows. They had a fearsome reputation that demoralized their advisories. That's how I think intimidate fits.

The feint is also common in ninjutsu but is called other things like Shinkie. It is an attack to a non-vital but painful area like the nose or the kidneys and when the bad guy is distracted by that pain from that attack, the ninja had a much better chance to get in the killing blow. In terms of D&D mechanics, it would be a bit like if a monk’s stunning fist hit, then the Monk's next successful attack would automatically be a critical hit – but we don’t have anything like that (well, other than a few spells like Hunter’s Mercy but that does not really apply). I think feint is as good a D&D model for this type of attack I'm going to get without going monk or getting the stunning fist feat.
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 10:27 AM You can probably accomplish as much with good roleplaying, intimidate isn't as good mechanically as you might want it to be.

On the other hand, Exotic weapon master might have have what you are looking for. Flurry of strikes is just, well, great, if you have a spiked chain, and the intimidate move is pretty good also.

I'd like to see a level of monk, for the free monk weapons, and Imp. Unarmed Strike, and shuriken. But on the other hand, you'll want to make sure your BAB doesn't get too far behind.

I'll think about this one. It's an actual challenge to do really well.

And smokesticks. Lots of smokesticks.
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 10:32 AM Spring attack and HIPS work together REALLY well.

Ex) (assuming you are currently hidden)

Attack action (standard) = move your move, and attack somewhere along the way. If not spotted earlier, it's a sneak attack.
Move action = hide

Rinse, and repeat.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
IMPORTANT NOTE: The description of the Sneak Attack feat changes, depending on what printing of the 3.5 PHB you happen to own. In my copy, it looks as if that move action could be used to move again. In later versions, it's clear that you can't do that. I would save you the hour long rules debate that I had, if I could.
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 10:34 AM Try something like this:

http://www.reapermini.com/FigureFinder#detail/04405
Tengu
07-31-07, 10:40 AM OK, PHB 76 reads that if I snipe, that is, if I am hidden at 120' away and I come out of hide to shoot a ranged weapon then re-hide I take a -20 even if I have Hide In Plane site (this only means that I don't need to find cover/concealment) or even if I have the woodland Archer feat (which lets me move, shoot, and re-hide) BUT if I am 10' away come out of hide and walk up to you and stab you then walk 10' away and hide I don't take -20 (why? just because this is melee?) - so, I don't get it? What am I missing?

Thanks,
UMiskatonic
07-31-07, 11:52 AM There is no specific place in the rules that covers the situation you have described. I had a shadowdancer, I know.

So, judges will do one of two things. They will say "I interpret this sniping thing broadly, and your melee attack falls under this rule, even though the rule does not specifically say it includes melee attacks."

Or, they will say "I interpret this rule narrowly. The rule mentions ranged attacks, and this is not a ranged attack. Therefore, the normal rules for attacking and hiding are still in effect, and you do not take a -20 penalty."

One of these is better for your character, obviously. However, you can actually beat some things even with a -20 penalty.
Tengu
07-31-07, 10:16 PM Try something like this:

http://www.reapermini.com/FigureFinder#detail/04405

Yes, that's him!
UMiskatonic
08-02-07, 10:15 AM All my best ideas keep going back the the assassin PrC, which is illegal. Still, if you ever play this guy in a home game, I really like Rogue 3/Swash3/assassin 8.

Without the assassin levels, I'm inclined to either make a daring outlaw build (rogue 3/swashbuckler 12), or a monk/shadowdancer/exotic weapon master (monk 6/shd 2/xwm 2), or an ascetic rogue (rogue 1/monk 14)

Daring Outlaw: steadily increasing sneak attack, access to ninja-like sneak attack feats, INT to damage, bluff, intimidate, tumble as class skills

Monk/shd/xwm: hide in plain sight, fun w/ shurikens, useful w/ combat reflexes, better full attack options (flurry w/ chain, and ok bab). Downside, intimidate will have to wait a bit, it's cross-class for a while.

Ascetic rogue: Good synergy with stunning fist and sneak attack. Requires a good wisdom to pull off. Good sneak attack progression. TOUGH on stats, you'll never really have enough w/ a 28 pt. buy.

If there's one of these you have a clear preference for, say so, and I'm sure we can fine tune it. Regardless, I think the following is true....

a) Intimidate is a lousy combat option. It also works off of Cha, which won't be very good.

b) Consider maintaining search and disable, because every table will expect the ninja to scout ahead and look for things, and it's nice. Likewise Spot.

c) I'm hardpressed to build any of these without a level of shadowdancer. That HIPS is just way too ninja to miss.

d) You are NOT a main-line attacker. You need to trip people with the chain, and focus on assisting the fighters. Sneak attack when it's easy, but don't trade full attacks with anyone for very long.

e) kuo-toa can see you. I learned this the hard way.
Tengu
08-07-07, 09:50 PM monk/shadowdancer/exotic weapon master (monk 6/shd 2/xwm 2) looks good to me. Maybe with level 1 in Swashbuckler for WF and maybe 1 or 2 levels in Ftr to get improved trip and/or improved faint early.

How would you build this guy?

Thanks
UMiskatonic
08-07-07, 10:57 PM I would go to monk 6, for the bonus feat and better saves.

I'd take two levels of exotic weapon master, for the flurry of strikes, and for the exotic trip ability.

I'd take one level of shadowdancer, for the HIPS.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
From here, I see a few options, and I'm going to talk through them.

a) strong guy. this way, you're better at grappling, hitting, and tripping. Hard not to like this. If str = dex, weapon finesse is not useful.

b) smart guy. more skill points is good. Other than that, INT doesn't really help you do anything. No int-based skills, no spell dcs, no nothing. I think human might get the job done...

c) wisdom guy. Let's see here...wisdom is good for AC, stunning fist DCs, will saves, and spot and listen. It's not bad, but we might get better payoff somewhere else.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I think I would go with strong monk, and just forget about wisdom. Buy a chain shirt, and you'll still be able to tumble and evade. AOs will give you the attacks you would otherwise miss.

Str 16
Con 14
Dex 14
Int 12
Wis 8
Cha 8

and 4 points wherever you think you need them.

Skills: Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Tumble as major skills, and five ranks in balance. jump, escape artist when you can do it.

Feats:
1-Imp. Unarmed, Imp. Grapple, X (spiked chain), WF (chain).
2-Combat Reflexes
3-Dodge
6-Imp. Trip, Mobility
9-Spring Attack

Overall, I'm thinking monk 8/shadowdancer1/exotic weapon master 2.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Is that better or worse than making the high dexterity monk, and going with swashbuckler 1/monk 6/shadowdancer 1/exotic weapon master 2?

Actually, that's not an altogether rotten build. Gives you martial weapons, which is good. Slightly more hit points, also good. Just as many skills, but different ones. And starting as a first level swashbuckler isn't all that bad. Zorro has some ninja-like qualities, black mask and all.

Overall, I could go either way on this. Sorry for a long rambly post, but it's all I had time to cram in.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tengu 07-30-07, 07:29 PM	I would like to build a ninja like character (not the class ninja but more like the real legend). So, I am thinking of a smart (high INT) and quick (high DEX) fighter type using lots of skills when fighting like bluff (feint) and intimidate. So, here are some of my ideas so far: Weapon: Spiked Chain – gives reach but also can be used at 5’. Good for tripping and disarming as well. But mostly, it is close to traditional ninja weapons like “kama with a chain” and “chain with iron weights” and has the multi-purpose feel about it that historic ninjas really looked for… Key Skills: -Most important ones: Tumble, Intimidate, Bluff -Also important ones: Escape Artist, Jump (to add to tumble), Move Silently, Hide, Gather Info. Feats: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), combat expertise, improve trip, improve feint, combat reflexes. Class: Thinking of starting with swashbuckler to get weapon finesse, the fighter 1 and 2 for the feats but where to go after that, it is important to me to keep the key skills (see above) as class skills. Ninja like classes: - Mountebank (my current favorite): gain tongue of devil to help bluff, sneak attack, and sideslip (not only is this a dimension door move ability but it’s an IMIDIATE action not just a move or standard action – wow, get out of jail free), and alter ego – which is very ninja like. Down side, lower BAB, need to take deceitful feat. - Vigilante: Batman Ninja? (2nd favorite): ninja like spells such as swift invisibility; fast hide feat, dimensional anchor, mettle. Downside: Need to put points in CHA for spells, the Vigilante smite is almost impossible to get the actual requirements in place to use it. - Thief-Acrobat: Lots of acrobat feats but weaker BAB. - Street Fighter: Always Ready, Sneak Attack, Stand Tough, and Uncanny Dodge - Multiclass Rogue and Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat. So, sneak attack and goes up with Swashbuckler levels and gain evasion but loss of 1 BAB. So, given the above, I envision a melee round at 6th level or so looking like this: 1. Feint (during move round), if success, he gets no DEX bonus to AC 2. Intimidate (if success he gets -2 to hit and on Saving Throws) 3. Trip (with a +4 for Improved Trip) 4. He’s prone (+4 to hit) 5. I attack! 6. Now I take a 5 ft. step away from him 7. Then on his turn, if he is foolish enough, he gets up – giving me an AoO, then when he takes a step toward me, another AoO. Please let me know, what you think of the skills, feats, and Class/PrC’s as well as any tips on how to better maximize my melee opportunities. Thanks,
Jay_Ibero_911 07-30-07, 08:00 PM	I would like to build a ninja like character (not the class ninja but more like the real legend). So, I am thinking of a smart (high INT) and quick (high DEX) fighter type using lots of skills when fighting like bluff (feint) and intimidate. So, here are some of my ideas so far: Weapon: Spiked Chain – gives reach but also can be used at 5’. Good for tripping and disarming as well. But mostly, it is close to traditional ninja weapons like “kama with a chain” and “chain with iron weights” and has the multi-purpose feel about it that historic ninjas really looked for… Key Skills: -Most important ones: Tumble, Intimidate, Bluff -Also important ones: Escape Artist, Jump (to add to tumble), Move Silently, Hide, Gather Info. Feats: Exotic Weapon (Spiked Chain), combat expertise, improve trip, improve feint, combat reflexes. Class: Thinking of starting with swashbuckler to get weapon finesse, the fighter 1 and 2 for the feats but where to go after that, it is important to me to keep the key skills (see above) as class skills. Ninja like classes: - Mountebank (my current favorite): gain tongue of devil to help bluff, sneak attack, and sideslip (not only is this a dimension door move ability but it’s an IMIDIATE action not just a move or standard action – wow, get out of jail free), and alter ego – which is very ninja like. Down side, lower BAB, need to take deceitful feat. - Vigilante: Batman Ninja? (2nd favorite): ninja like spells such as swift invisibility; fast hide feat, dimensional anchor, mettle. Downside: Need to put points in CHA for spells, the Vigilante smite is almost impossible to get the actual requirements in place to use it. - Thief-Acrobat: Lots of acrobat feats but weaker BAB. - Street Fighter: Always Ready, Sneak Attack, Stand Tough, and Uncanny Dodge - Multiclass Rogue and Swashbuckler with the Daring Outlaw feat. So, sneak attack and goes up with Swashbuckler levels and gain evasion but loss of 1 BAB. So, given the above, I envision a melee round at 6th level or so looking like this: 1. Feint (during move round), if success, he gets no DEX bonus to AC 2. Intimidate (if success he gets -2 to hit and on Saving Throws) 3. Trip (with a +4 for Improved Trip) 4. He’s prone (+4 to hit) 5. I attack! 6. Now I take a 5 ft. step away from him 7. Then on his turn, if he is foolish enough, he gets up – giving me an AoO, then when he takes a step toward me, another AoO. Please let me know, what you think of the skills, feats, and Class/PrC’s as well as any tips on how to better maximize my melee opportunities. Thanks, Using intimidate to demoralize an opponent is a standard action and only leaves the foe shaken for 1 round. You might want to make use of Intimidating Strike from PHB 2 so you can intimidate with an attack and leave them shaken for the encounter. Also they will provoke an AOO from standing up, but will still be able to 5ft step next to you and attack without provoking another AOO. Also, if you want to even be able to reliably make use of trip you will need very high strength too.
jstorrie 07-30-07, 09:52 PM	Would a ninja really be spending the time to demoralize and feint, when she could just get with the killing?
CdrcJsn 07-30-07, 10:30 PM	Strange, but I think 4 levels of Bard would fit in. It has most of the skills you're looking for. You won't use the group buff abilities much (well, maybe whispered to yourself), but you will love the spells. Swift Invisibility is available as a 1st level spell. Regular Invisibility and Mirror Image are both second level spells and are Ninja staples. You have the same BAB and HP of a rogue and have better will saves.
_metz_ 07-30-07, 11:07 PM	You may want to look for Scarlett Corsair access. However the piratey theme may not be suitable. Improved Feint as a bonus feat, and can feint as a free action. (only once every d4 rounds though) Full BAB Progresses Sneak attack, Needs 8 ranks in intimidate, probably some profession sailor too though.
Lomiat 07-30-07, 11:37 PM	Shadowdancer. Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Shadowdancer/Exotic Weapon Master/Dread Commando/Nightsong Enforcer/etc. Not only will you be able to step out of the shadows to deal death, but you'll be well on your way to the uber-madness that is Elusive Target, a very ninja-like feat (I think). Dodge, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain), Weapon Focus (spiked chain), Staggering Strike, Elusive Target, Improved Initiative... (not necessarily in that order).
Tengu 07-31-07, 07:02 AM	Would a ninja really be spending the time to demoralize and feint, when she could just get with the killing? When I think of the historic Ninja, I think of the peasant or Samurai that yells "Ninja" drops his weapon or ho and runs away when he sees the black figure step out of the shadows. They had a fearsome reputation that demoralized their advisories. That's how I think intimidate fits. The feint is also common in ninjutsu but is called other things like Shinkie. It is an attack to a non-vital but painful area like the nose or the kidneys and when the bad guy is distracted by that pain from that attack, the ninja had a much better chance to get in the killing blow. In terms of D&D mechanics, it would be a bit like if a monk’s stunning fist hit, then the Monk's next successful attack would automatically be a critical hit – but we don’t have anything like that (well, other than a few spells like Hunter’s Mercy but that does not really apply). I think feint is as good a D&D model for this type of attack I'm going to get without going monk or getting the stunning fist feat.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 10:27 AM	You can probably accomplish as much with good roleplaying, intimidate isn't as good mechanically as you might want it to be. On the other hand, Exotic weapon master might have have what you are looking for. Flurry of strikes is just, well, great, if you have a spiked chain, and the intimidate move is pretty good also. I'd like to see a level of monk, for the free monk weapons, and Imp. Unarmed Strike, and shuriken. But on the other hand, you'll want to make sure your BAB doesn't get too far behind. I'll think about this one. It's an actual challenge to do really well. And smokesticks. Lots of smokesticks.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 10:32 AM	Spring attack and HIPS work together REALLY well. Ex) (assuming you are currently hidden) Attack action (standard) = move your move, and attack somewhere along the way. If not spotted earlier, it's a sneak attack. Move action = hide Rinse, and repeat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE: The description of the Sneak Attack feat changes, depending on what printing of the 3.5 PHB you happen to own. In my copy, it looks as if that move action could be used to move again. In later versions, it's clear that you can't do that. I would save you the hour long rules debate that I had, if I could.
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 10:34 AM	Try something like this: http://www.reapermini.com/FigureFinder#detail/04405
Tengu 07-31-07, 10:40 AM	OK, PHB 76 reads that if I snipe, that is, if I am hidden at 120' away and I come out of hide to shoot a ranged weapon then re-hide I take a -20 even if I have Hide In Plane site (this only means that I don't need to find cover/concealment) or even if I have the woodland Archer feat (which lets me move, shoot, and re-hide) BUT if I am 10' away come out of hide and walk up to you and stab you then walk 10' away and hide I don't take -20 (why? just because this is melee?) - so, I don't get it? What am I missing? Thanks,
UMiskatonic 07-31-07, 11:52 AM	There is no specific place in the rules that covers the situation you have described. I had a shadowdancer, I know. So, judges will do one of two things. They will say "I interpret this sniping thing broadly, and your melee attack falls under this rule, even though the rule does not specifically say it includes melee attacks." Or, they will say "I interpret this rule narrowly. The rule mentions ranged attacks, and this is not a ranged attack. Therefore, the normal rules for attacking and hiding are still in effect, and you do not take a -20 penalty." One of these is better for your character, obviously. However, you can actually beat some things even with a -20 penalty.
Tengu 07-31-07, 10:16 PM	Try something like this: http://www.reapermini.com/FigureFinder#detail/04405 Yes, that's him!
UMiskatonic 08-02-07, 10:15 AM	All my best ideas keep going back the the assassin PrC, which is illegal. Still, if you ever play this guy in a home game, I really like Rogue 3/Swash3/assassin 8. Without the assassin levels, I'm inclined to either make a daring outlaw build (rogue 3/swashbuckler 12), or a monk/shadowdancer/exotic weapon master (monk 6/shd 2/xwm 2), or an ascetic rogue (rogue 1/monk 14) Daring Outlaw: steadily increasing sneak attack, access to ninja-like sneak attack feats, INT to damage, bluff, intimidate, tumble as class skills Monk/shd/xwm: hide in plain sight, fun w/ shurikens, useful w/ combat reflexes, better full attack options (flurry w/ chain, and ok bab). Downside, intimidate will have to wait a bit, it's cross-class for a while. Ascetic rogue: Good synergy with stunning fist and sneak attack. Requires a good wisdom to pull off. Good sneak attack progression. TOUGH on stats, you'll never really have enough w/ a 28 pt. buy. If there's one of these you have a clear preference for, say so, and I'm sure we can fine tune it. Regardless, I think the following is true.... a) Intimidate is a lousy combat option. It also works off of Cha, which won't be very good. b) Consider maintaining search and disable, because every table will expect the ninja to scout ahead and look for things, and it's nice. Likewise Spot. c) I'm hardpressed to build any of these without a level of shadowdancer. That HIPS is just way too ninja to miss. d) You are NOT a main-line attacker. You need to trip people with the chain, and focus on assisting the fighters. Sneak attack when it's easy, but don't trade full attacks with anyone for very long. e) kuo-toa can see you. I learned this the hard way.
Tengu 08-07-07, 09:50 PM	monk/shadowdancer/exotic weapon master (monk 6/shd 2/xwm 2) looks good to me. Maybe with level 1 in Swashbuckler for WF and maybe 1 or 2 levels in Ftr to get improved trip and/or improved faint early. How would you build this guy? Thanks
UMiskatonic 08-07-07, 10:57 PM	I would go to monk 6, for the bonus feat and better saves. I'd take two levels of exotic weapon master, for the flurry of strikes, and for the exotic trip ability. I'd take one level of shadowdancer, for the HIPS. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From here, I see a few options, and I'm going to talk through them. a) strong guy. this way, you're better at grappling, hitting, and tripping. Hard not to like this. If str = dex, weapon finesse is not useful. b) smart guy. more skill points is good. Other than that, INT doesn't really help you do anything. No int-based skills, no spell dcs, no nothing. I think human might get the job done... c) wisdom guy. Let's see here...wisdom is good for AC, stunning fist DCs, will saves, and spot and listen. It's not bad, but we might get better payoff somewhere else. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- I think I would go with strong monk, and just forget about wisdom. Buy a chain shirt, and you'll still be able to tumble and evade. AOs will give you the attacks you would otherwise miss. Str 16 Con 14 Dex 14 Int 12 Wis 8 Cha 8 and 4 points wherever you think you need them. Skills: Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Tumble as major skills, and five ranks in balance. jump, escape artist when you can do it. Feats: 1-Imp. Unarmed, Imp. Grapple, X (spiked chain), WF (chain). 2-Combat Reflexes 3-Dodge 6-Imp. Trip, Mobility 9-Spring Attack Overall, I'm thinking monk 8/shadowdancer1/exotic weapon master 2. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Is that better or worse than making the high dexterity monk, and going with swashbuckler 1/monk 6/shadowdancer 1/exotic weapon master 2? Actually, that's not an altogether rotten build. Gives you martial weapons, which is good. Slightly more hit points, also good. Just as many skills, but different ones. And starting as a first level swashbuckler isn't all that bad. Zorro has some ninja-like qualities, black mask and all. Overall, I could go either way on this. Sorry for a long rambly post, but it's all I had time to cram in.