Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreatSiron 06-15-07, 01:43 AM	I've decided to create a new thread here, so people will stop derailing the one on weapons on the main board. Basically the problem amounts to the fact that all these min-maxers take levels in Occult Slayer, and then completely forget about the "inconvenant" fluff that makes them nearly incompatable with 90% of LG tables if they were played right, not to mention all the enchantments and stat booster that are MAGIC. And healing, which is MAGIC. Now I posted on the other thread about how I would go about playing an Occult Slayer (I do have one character that could be retrained to be able to take lvls, but he has Holy access, and wasn't made to be a damage monster, he's a tank.) That being said if I were to make him an Occult Slayer: He would keep his magic weapons and armor that he has gained up to the point he started to take Occult Slayer levels (He's a dwarf, and he doesn't want to abondon his weapons and armor, even if he now believes them to be cursed. They have served him well to that point.) He would refuse all buffs, period. He will only accept healing when he's desperate; deep gouge in his stomach desperate. (1/4 his hit points or lower). He will then sulk and curse about his weakness afterward, as well as give the cleric (or druid) dirty looks. He will only use the magic items he has at the point of becoming an Occult Slayer, never will he improve them or get new ones. This only applies to weapons and armor. Stat boosters and trinkets will be sold. (This also means no Holy weapon.) He will actively kill enemy spellcasters, (even if they are supposed to be taken alive), and will constantly nag the ones on his team about the fact they are going to get themselves killed and they don't know what they are messing with. (Magic in the hands of mortals brings only distruction in the end.) He will attribute their relcutance to either a lack of wisdom (wizards and bards), lack of intellegence (clerics and druids), or both (sorcerers). And finally, he will never accept Raise Dead after his third Occult Slayer level. (His hatred of magic is so great at this point, that he would rather stay dead.) That's right, he dies after that point, and he's gone. AR's void. Character sheet buried in my backyard. Not kidding. (He's not my main character anyway.)
Alpha_Nerd 06-15-07, 03:08 AM	Aren't occult slayers fine with divine magic, even to a point where they specifically say divine casters go into occult slayer in the fluff text?
King Kashue 06-15-07, 04:02 AM	Aren't occult slayers fine with divine magic, even to a point where they specifically say divine casters go into occult slayer in the fluff text? No... Clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards - the primary targets of occult slayers (CW p. 66) There is no distinction in the text between divine and arcane casters...However, spellcasters in general may indeed take the class, which puts quite the question mark on any such assertions that spellcasting is an unconditional anathema to Occult slayers...
_metz_ 06-15-07, 07:42 AM	No... Clerics, druids, sorcerers, and wizards - the primary targets of occult slayers (CW p. 66) There is no distinction in the text between divine and arcane casters...However, spellcasters in general may indeed take the class, which puts quite the question mark on any such assertions that spellcasting is an unconditional anathema to Occult slayers... Personally I think that is just stupid. I think its a reasonably badly designed class, it assumes role played difficulties with other classes, and some DM control. In LG there is neither. The Occult Slayer on the unicorn sorcerer jumps to mind. Its like being a Gendwar Angrim Cleric and working for an Orc horde. Might be a CN Orc Horde, and theoretically possible if the player justified it, but its still just not quite right.
Lupo 06-15-07, 08:22 AM	I've decided to create a new thread here, so people will stop derailing the one on weapons on the main board. Basically the problem amounts to the fact that all these min-maxers take levels in Occult Slayer, and then completely forget about the "inconvenant" fluff that makes them nearly incompatable with 90% of LG tables if they were played right, not to mention all the enchantments and stat booster that are MAGIC. And healing, which is MAGIC. Now I posted on the other thread about how I would go about playing an Occult Slayer (I do have one character that could be retrained to be able to take lvls, but he has Holy access, and wasn't made to be a damage monster, he's a tank.) That being said if I were to make him an Occult Slayer: He would keep his magic weapons and armor that he has gained up to the point he started to take Occult Slayer levels (He's a dwarf, and he doesn't want to abondon his weapons and armor, even if he now believes them to be cursed. They have served him well to that point.) He would refuse all buffs, period. He will only accept healing when he's desperate; deep gouge in his stomach desperate. (1/4 his hit points or lower). He will then sulk and curse about his weakness afterward, as well as give the cleric (or druid) dirty looks. He will only use the magic items he has at the point of becoming an Occult Slayer, never will he improve them or get new ones. This only applies to weapons and armor. Stat boosters and trinkets will be sold. (This also means no Holy weapon.) He will actively kill enemy spellcasters, (even if they are supposed to be taken alive), and will constantly nag the ones on his team about the fact they are going to get themselves killed and they don't know what they are messing with. (Magic in the hands of mortals brings only distruction in the end.) He will attribute their relcutance to either a lack of wisdom (wizards and bards), lack of intellegence (clerics and druids), or both (sorcerers). And finally, he will never accept Raise Dead after his third Occult Slayer level. (His hatred of magic is so great at this point, that he would rather stay dead.) That's right, he dies after that point, and he's gone. AR's void. Character sheet buried in my backyard. Not kidding. (He's not my main character anyway.) just face it ;), (LG)-players are good at finding cheese mountains AND not all prestige classes are created equal :cool:. if all prestige classes were at an equal power level, one wouldn't see a majority of characters go for a very limited number of prestige classes. examples (from the wonderful www.nyrond.org site): there are 65 radiant servants and 1 (ONE) stormlord, guess why :D, there are 40 occult slayers and 2 (TWO) divine crusaders (and one of the divine crusaders has also a level in occult slayer :D), do you see a pattern??? ;). and sometimes D&D R&D team did really poor jobs with some classes :rolleyes:. and as the company isn't to eager to "errata" even obvious mistakes, what do you expect with these that are easy fixable by a DM (at least in a normal homegame)? if some people want to install a prescriptive, binding code of conduct for occult slayer that isn't there, what does stop us from changing other features of (prestige)-classes we don't like??????:confused: if the circle comes to the conclusion to ban the occult slayer as a character choice entirely, i would be fine with it, but introducing special restrictions for how-to-play one single class would be a bad precedence for "house ruling". ciao martin m. ps: and there was a certain core special with occult slayers in it that readily accepted magic spells, as otherwise their cover would have been blown . . . my cleric will never ever again include "guides" in his heroes fest ;) . . . and they worked for a spellcaster of some sort.
Potato Weasel 06-15-07, 08:27 AM	So clerics all actively praise their god at every moment and only cast spells, resorting to melee when absolutely necessary? Rogues are always chaotic outlaws? Barbarians can't have an Int or Wis above 10? It's FLAVOR there is nowhere in the class that actually says they have to be an idiot and reject magic at all costs. Flavor is meant to be ignored, changed or RP'ed at your own discretion. When a barbarian goes into a rage do you force him to put all his BAB into power attack and try to kill the nearest thing to him? Or does he tend to get to the best position possible, then see what his best chance for PA to hit would be? I remember reading something called RACES OF THE WILD and all their views on what elves are. So, do I tell everyone that plays an elf that they have to put a rank into every single skill and apparently take a level in almost every class? Does everybody have to play a race exactly as its described? Cuz I remember this line popping up just about everywhere where it says 'adventurers are the exception'. I took occult slayer. I have friends who are casters. I dont care. The whole reason I took the class is because the character is paranoid about dopplegangers, shapeshifters, demons, and other Occult Evil Beings. People play their character how they want to, unless its a paladin or something else with actual rules restrictions on how it can be played, I dont see how it's hurting you.
mregecko 06-15-07, 09:05 AM	Yeah, I'm in Keoland, I know an Occult Slayer who's in the Silent Ones metaorg... Basically, he considers himself a lawful authority whose purpose is to stop corrupt and irresponsible usage of magic. He also has levels in Hexblade. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire.
UMiskatonic 06-15-07, 09:10 AM	Great Siron, I like the character you've described. I think you'll have a lot of fun with it. And kudos for leading by example. Too many of us fall back to "That's lame," or "I don't like your cheese-filled build" which isn't terribly productive. In the best of worlds, you'll convince a few people that unpower-gaming is actually more fun, rather like having a handicap in golf. And lets all remember that there is a plus side to diversity. Because thousands of people have so much room to maneuver as they build their character, we all get to play with people who build and play characters we never would have thought of ourselves. And that's the tradeoff for sitting next to either the 20 STR Barbarian named Dud, or the cleric 3/church inquisitor 3/Radiant servant 3/contemplative 1
awroe 06-15-07, 10:15 AM	Having a strong character background / motivation is always good, so long as you don't try and enforce others to play the same way. I would be concerned that without the use of magic items you will become underpowered for your APL. Perhaps you could ask your triad for access to alchemical / improved mundane items to make up for it? You'll also end up with a huge pile of gold and nothing to spend it on, so it might be worth having a plan for what to do with it. AW.
TWG_Prometheus 06-15-07, 10:43 AM	if some people want to install a prescriptive, binding code of conduct for occult slayer that isn't there, what does stop us from changing other features of (prestige)-classes we don't like??????:confused: if the circle comes to the conclusion to ban the occult slayer as a character choice entirely, i would be fine with it, but introducing special restrictions for how-to-play one single class would be a bad precedence for "house ruling". Note that even though Britt is one of the ones speaking out against poorly-played Occult Slayers to the point that he says that he'd deny them roleplaying experience based on how the character was played, (shouldn't that always be true?) he hasn't made any move or mentioned any desire to actually change the mechanics of the way things stand in Living Greyhawk. There's no sign of a Living Greyhawk ruling on Occult Slayers coming out. I don't think anyone is wanting to start throwing Codes of Conduct on classes that don't have them. (Even if the class should have one.) Closing the class entirely would work for me, too. I don't have any particular interest in it, and it'd be worth getting rid of these arguments at the very least. Makes you kind of wish that Wizards had printed it with 3/4 BAB progression so this wouldn't even come up.
gomeztoo 06-15-07, 10:53 AM	I see some issues with a PC played as the one above. Mostly, team issues: this PC may easily frustrate the efforts of the rest of the party. Accepting no buffs, healing, or other magic aid means that at higher levels you risk adding little to the party and becoming a liability. Refusing to coorperate with the party to keep enemy spellcasters alive (for various purposes) can wreck a module. Nagging at your fellow party members becomes old hat at some point - eventually, people might stop listening at all. An occult slayer can add a new dimension if played well. Played to extremes, however, he can become a problem.
TWG_Prometheus 06-15-07, 10:59 AM	I see some issues with a PC played as the one above. Mostly, team issues: this PC may easily frustrate the efforts of the rest of the party. Accepting no buffs, healing, or other magic aid means that at higher levels you risk adding little to the party and becoming a liability. Refusing to coorperate with the party to keep enemy spellcasters alive (for various purposes) can wreck a module. Nagging at your fellow party members becomes old hat at some point - eventually, people might stop listening at all. An occult slayer can add a new dimension if played well. Played to extremes, however, he can become a problem. This is one more reason that a Code of Conduct would have been a good idea for Wizards to print with the class. Code of Conducts don't just restrict...they also allow by giving you space to work in comfortably without having to go to fanatic level. (unless you want to)
Iswald 06-15-07, 11:10 AM	I've decided to create a new thread here, so people will stop derailing the one on weapons on the main board. Is there some kind of question here about making a character? Or, did you just feel like moving your tirade to an inappropriate forum? Living Greyhawk Characters Give and get advice about creating and optimizing your Living Greyhawk characters.
GreatSiron 06-15-07, 12:27 PM	I apologize, I guess I should post a build. (The forum does say "Character disscussion" which I took to mean disscussing a character class was okay.) Race: Dwarf Stats: STR: 16 CON: 16 DEX: 14 INT: 10 WIS: 10 CHA: 8 Level Progression: Fighter 1: Feats: Dodge, WF (Dwarven Waraxe) Fighter 2: Feat: Power Attack Fighter 3: Feat: Titan Fighting Fighter 4: Feat: Improved Int Boost STR Fighter 5 Fighter 6: Feats: Mobility, Dwarven Armor Proficiecy EWM 1: Special Ablity: Uncanny Blow EWM 2: Special Ablity: Exotic Trip Boost STR Fighter 7: Feat: Elusive Target Fighter 8: Feat: WS (Dwarven Waraxe) Occult Slayer 1 Occult Slayer 2 Feat: MWM (Slashing) Stat Boost: Open Occult Slayer 3 Occult Slayer 4 Occult Slayer 5 Feat: Open That being said, he isn't your ordinary "smash it all" power attacking monster. He has a tower shield for heaven's sake. He has a mix of offensive and defensive ablitlies and has a decent AC unbuffed. (+2 Battle Plate, +1 Tower Shield, Titan Fighting against larger creatures) He also has a masterwork composite longbow that he opens up with. (He doesn't go charging headfirst into a massacre, he's no barbarian.) That being said, I don't think this will be the direction my fighter will be heading. (As magic items are a very important part of every high level character). Also, I may have misstated my first post: I personally don't care if you roleplay or not. I meant to say that some people were upset that people didn't play Occult Slayers like the fluff text says. That being said, in LG you really can't do that. (It says you try to kill all spellcasters, and you can't kill PC's.) So you have to take some creative liberties. Same goes for many other PrC classes: Pious Templar (who's supposed to guard a temple), Divine Oracle (rarely take active part in affairs), and Ruathar (who is supposed to protect elvish settlements). As for how I would roleplay an Occult Slayer, it's really not as annoying as you would think. He wouldn't nag every 5 seconds, more like when the wizard started messing with something obviously highly magical, or throws a fireball "Watch wer yer aiming that!" As for the cleric, he would just be begrudingly sour most of the time, unless the cleric tried to buff him. "I der't want any part of yer 'buffin' magic."
King Kashue 06-15-07, 01:55 PM	Closing the class entirely would work for me, too. I don't have any particular interest in it, and it'd be worth getting rid of these arguments at the very least. Close a class because you don't like it...hrm... Man, if that's the criteria, I would like Radiant Cheesegraters closed please. They're the single most overpowered PrC, in that you give up nothing except a hit point per level and have significantly improved healing, turning, and gain an extra domain, which also serves to make you a better turner (i.e., you trade a hit point a level to become significantly better at everything you do)... If I have to start arguments about it, fine. Then we can say "How about we close the class, it be worth getting rid of these arguments at the very least"... I like this plan...
trollbill 06-15-07, 02:41 PM	So clerics all actively praise their god at every moment and only cast spells, resorting to melee when absolutely necessary? Rogues are always chaotic outlaws? Barbarians can't have an Int or Wis above 10? It's FLAVOR there is nowhere in the class that actually says they have to be an idiot and reject magic at all costs. Flavor is meant to be ignored, changed or RP'ed at your own discretion. When a barbarian goes into a rage do you force him to put all his BAB into power attack and try to kill the nearest thing to him? Or does he tend to get to the best position possible, then see what his best chance for PA to hit would be? I remember reading something called RACES OF THE WILD and all their views on what elves are. So, do I tell everyone that plays an elf that they have to put a rank into every single skill and apparently take a level in almost every class? Does everybody have to play a race exactly as its described? Cuz I remember this line popping up just about everywhere where it says 'adventurers are the exception'. I took occult slayer. I have friends who are casters. I dont care. The whole reason I took the class is because the character is paranoid about dopplegangers, shapeshifters, demons, and other Occult Evil Beings. People play their character how they want to, unless its a paladin or something else with actual rules restrictions on how it can be played, I dont see how it's hurting you. The problem I think most people have with the class isn't that there can't be RP exceptions like you suggested, but that these exceptions are actually the rule in LG. Mostly due to the fact that a large number of people that take levels in Occult Slayer don't do so because of the flavor of the class. They do so for the mechanical benefits and the flavor is, at best, a secondary consideration. The flavor text is supposed to represent the norm for the class. There are plenty of PCs out there that play their Clerics/Fighters/Barbarians, etc. very much in line with the flavor text. I doubt you will find many, if any, Occult Slayers that do this. And the reason being, if they did, they wouldn't adventure with 90% of the adventuring parties out there. Allowing the class in LG, essentialy forces people to act outside the norm for this class, due to the limitations of LG. Which makes the class questionable as to whether of not it should actually be allowed.
Lupo 06-15-07, 03:11 PM	The problem I think most people have with the class isn't that there can't be RP exceptions like you suggested, but that these exceptions are actually the rule in LG. Mostly due to the fact that a large number of people that take levels in Occult Slayer don't do so because of the flavor of the class. They do so for the mechanical benefits and the flavor is, at best, a secondary consideration. those players with poor in-character backgrounds tend to have the same problem with any (prestige)-class they take, occult slayer only highlights this. checking the www.nyrond.org character list reveals that only 40 out of 5000 registered characters have occult slayer levels, assuming that at least one third of the characters are primary barbarian/fighter/paladin/ranger/hexblade that could qualify for occult slayer and benefit from it somehow, i don't see a real problem with those 40 that actually took a level in it. and even if half of them only took it for cherry-picking min/maxing issues i can live with it, as i can live with any bad-build/bad-played/uncooperative-player character one happen to share a table with from time to time. ciao martin m.
mregecko 06-15-07, 03:43 PM	I re-read the flavor text for the occult slayer this morning, and I really didn't see wher e it said they would be reluctant to take buffs, use magical weapons, etc... In my mind, I've always seen Occult Slayers as vigilantes who take it upon themselves to stop the abuse of magic, since mortals are incapable of handling it properly. I think it's quite plausible that a vigilante use the methods of his/her hunted to take them down. Maybe that would take them out of the LAWFUL category, but I think it's entirely within reason. I mean... Otherwise, an Occult Slayer would never be able to take down an at-CR caster or spellcasting creature? They would be the WORST occult slayer ever, because they would kill nothing. Fire with fire.
JamesMaissen 06-15-07, 07:01 PM	The problem I think most people have with the class isn't that there can't be RP exceptions like you suggested, but that these exceptions are actually the rule in LG. I think that the 'problem' that most people have with the class is simpler by far. It's seen as 'commonplace'. It's perceived as a 'powergamer' class or some such like that. The same happened with the Templar in 3.0 to the extent that a simple search and replace could take one of the debates about them and have it apply here without obvious notice. Partially it boils down to an older edition thinking associating a PC's identity with his/her class choice. Third edition's change to multiclassing has shifted that where the class mechanics are separated from the archetype the character is fulfilling. Sure the fluff text describes 'typical' members associated with the class in question, but PCs never have to be 'typical'. In fact a great proportion vehemently try to avoid this moniker, even going so far as to use it derisively in conversation. Let people roleplay as they decide. You may not like the way they choose to do so, or the amount (in either extreme) but that's their business, just as much as your character is your business. -James
Mommy was an Orc 06-15-07, 07:12 PM	Sure the fluff text describes 'typical' members associated with the class in question, but PCs never have to be 'typical'. Except it isn't just in the fluff text. The rules text explicitly defines one of their major abilities as powered by their hatred of spellcasters.
JamesMaissen 06-15-07, 07:32 PM	Except it isn't just in the fluff text. The rules text explicitly defines one of their major abilities as powered by their hatred of spellcasters. It's 99% fluff text.. but I guess that d6 roll is the final arbiter of how much the Occult Slayer in question really hates spell casters. Perhaps when they roll that 1 its because they've got wizards in their own party or they accepted that harmless spell when they were unconscious... -James
Franco Un-American 06-15-07, 09:00 PM	That's not rules text. That's fluff text in an ability description.
Potato Weasel 06-16-07, 08:33 AM	Also, look at the open list of prestige class. Now take out the caster classes. Now the mounted classes. Now take out stealth classes. Now take out classes needing specific races. Now take out classes that require class abilities except barbarian ones. Finally, take out the ranged classes, and what your left with is the eight or so classes that a non specialised fighter/barbarian build can go into without bending over backwards or wasting feats, taking caster levels, etc. Thats why you'll see so many occult slayer pc's.
Timlagor 06-16-07, 11:05 AM	I can't think of any reason any of my characters could be persuaded to adventure with the OP character (which I note he isn't actually planning to play anyway)
GreatSiron 06-16-07, 11:57 AM	I can't think of any reason any of my characters could be persuaded to adventure with the OP character (which I note he isn't actually planning to play anyway) If I came across another character like him, I wouldn't be able to be persuaded either. Most of my other characters can cast spells and won't adventure with someone who nags them about it. (That and my Thief Acrobat would look at him like he was some sort of idiot.) Just because that's how I'd play an Occult Slayer, doesn't mean I want to play him like that. Thus I don't make an Occult Slayer. Instead, I think I might try Stonelord. That seems interesting. P.S. I like the ideas that Mregecko and Potato Weasel had. While both ideas deviate a lot further from the RP text, they are both a heck of a lot more playable.
thorinXXX 06-16-07, 01:36 PM	I've decided to create a new thread here, so people will stop derailing the one on weapons on the main board. Basically the problem amounts to the fact that all these min-maxers take levels in Occult Slayer, and then completely forget about the "inconvenant" fluff that makes them nearly incompatable with 90% of LG tables if they were played right, not to mention all the enchantments and stat booster that are MAGIC. And healing, which is MAGIC. Now I posted on the other thread about how I would go about playing an Occult Slayer (I do have one character that could be retrained to be able to take lvls, but he has Holy access, and wasn't made to be a damage monster, he's a tank.) That being said if I were to make him an Occult Slayer: He would keep his magic weapons and armor that he has gained up to the point he started to take Occult Slayer levels (He's a dwarf, and he doesn't want to abondon his weapons and armor, even if he now believes them to be cursed. They have served him well to that point.) He would refuse all buffs, period. He will only accept healing when he's desperate; deep gouge in his stomach desperate. (1/4 his hit points or lower). He will then sulk and curse about his weakness afterward, as well as give the cleric (or druid) dirty looks. He will only use the magic items he has at the point of becoming an Occult Slayer, never will he improve them or get new ones. This only applies to weapons and armor. Stat boosters and trinkets will be sold. (This also means no Holy weapon.) He will actively kill enemy spellcasters, (even if they are supposed to be taken alive), and will constantly nag the ones on his team about the fact they are going to get themselves killed and they don't know what they are messing with. (Magic in the hands of mortals brings only distruction in the end.) He will attribute their relcutance to either a lack of wisdom (wizards and bards), lack of intellegence (clerics and druids), or both (sorcerers). And finally, he will never accept Raise Dead after his third Occult Slayer level. (His hatred of magic is so great at this point, that he would rather stay dead.) That's right, he dies after that point, and he's gone. AR's void. Character sheet buried in my backyard. Not kidding. (He's not my main character anyway.) Great background. But why is this guy less valid? He escaped from the Scarlet Brotherhood and now devotes his life to hunting them, and especially the sorcerers down. The techniques that he learned commating the SB can be used against any caster, but his true hatred is for the Brotherhood.
GreatSiron 06-16-07, 01:48 PM	Great background. But why is this guy less valid? He escaped from the Scarlet Brotherhood and now devotes his life to hunting them, and especially the sorcerers down. The techniques that he learned commating the SB can be used against any caster, but his true hatred is for the Brotherhood. I don't think he is. I think that's a good background story for an Occult Slayer, its just not how I read the fluff text. However, I don't think any DM would ever dock that character any EXP for roleplaying, and I'd play at a table with him anyday. (I'm no fan of the Brotherhood either).
King Kashue 06-16-07, 02:13 PM	If I came across another character like him, I wouldn't be able to be persuaded either. Most of my other characters can cast spells and won't adventure with someone who nags them about it. (That and my Thief Acrobat would look at him like he was some sort of idiot.) Just because that's how I'd play an Occult Slayer, doesn't mean I want to play him like that. Thus I don't make an Occult Slayer. Instead, I think I might try Stonelord. That seems interesting. So, Iswald was correct? You're not actually asking about builds, you're just whinging about what you perceive to be a problem with other people's roleplaying?... Nice...
GreatSiron 06-16-07, 02:30 PM	So, Iswald was correct? You're not actually asking about builds, you're just whinging about what you perceive to be a problem with other people's roleplaying?... Nice... Naw. Actually, I think all I did was admit I'M a bad roleplayer, as that character would be how I would be compelled to play an Occult Slayer. As long as someone isn't naggy and bossy, I don't care how they roleplay. That Occult Slayer would be so, and would annoy me. (And make people annoyed at me if I actually tried to play him.) As for build, I already applogized for that, I mistook what this forum was about. I forgot to read the discriptive text under the name. I made this thread so people could bring their complants over here and get them off the weapons access thread.
boogahwoof 06-16-07, 06:11 PM	I dont see what the problem is at all. I have a occult slayer, he hates people who use magic unjustly (divine or arcane). He understands theres a purpouse for magic in the world and respects those who wield it properly. So thats the way i role play him, I dont see any problem with that at all. It adhears to the basic principals of the class.
ithardin 06-16-07, 07:34 PM	I would like to point out that the example Occult Slayer from "Complete Adventurer," pg. 68 is statted as using: 1. A +1 Bastard Sword 2. A +2 Composite Longbow [+4 Str bonus] Extrapolating from the picture of Herlech (pg. 67) it looks like he is wearing a chain shirt. He is statted with a Dex of 16 and his AC is: AC 19 Touch 13 Flatfooted 16 Sooooo, I would posit he is wearing a +2 chain shirt. AC 19 [10 + 3(Dex) + 4(armor) + 2(magic)] So it looks like even though Harlech hates spellcasters, etc. he doesn't mind using and wearing magic items. Ian
GreatSiron 06-16-07, 07:39 PM	Ah, now that's a good point. A good point on what I'm not sure: the fact that an Occult Slayer would use magic items, or the fact that WOTC likes to contradict itself. You decide.
ithardin 06-16-07, 07:50 PM	Hmmm, reading "Complete Warrior" also says "...a candidate for this prestige class must be chosen and trained by another occult slayer who is willing to share her secrets." Perhaps if the Circle had included Occult Slayer in its Chapter 4: Rulebooks; Class Clarifications to require campaign documentation such as an AR entry or meta-org we wouldn't be as inundated with them as has been suggested. I personally only know one player who has a PC with Occult Slayer levels. Ian
Mattastrophic 06-16-07, 08:09 PM	I always find it strange that there are people out there who somehow feel that the choices other people make with their PCs somehow makes the game less fun for them. Strangely enough, according to the same fluff text some of you guys are applying as "Rules of Roleplaying" the Occult Slayer, my Virtuoso would not be allowed to participate in Living Greyhawk at all. CAdv pg89: "The roar of the crowd, the praise of spectators after a truly great performance, the showers of gifts from attractive admirers-why would anyone trade all that for sleeping in the woods or poking around in smelly old dungeons? The virtuoso leaves creeping down dark corridors and matching wits against deadly traps to others. His place is on the stage, surrounded by adoring fans." So does this mean I should get docked roleplaying XP because I'm not following the flavor text? -Matt
ithardin 06-16-07, 08:33 PM	Most of the comments, opinions, frustrations, ramblings, etc. I post are out of my own frustrations as a player. I can admit to being envious at how some of you build geniuses think up what you think up. But I do think it is possible to have someone else's build/spell/RP choices affect the level of enjoyment at a given table, etc. and I have had it happen to myself (I hope I've never reduced anyone else's enjoyment at a table because of my actions...but I think its possible). Ian
ithardin 06-16-07, 08:51 PM	I don't think your virtuoso should be docked XP by not following flavor text as "this is how you MUST roleplay a virtuoso." However, I don't like the term "fluff" text. In my opinion that implies that it is completely superfluous. I think flavor text is exactly that...flavor. I think it serves as an excellent basal guideline to character creation. Does it mean that it must be adhered to? No. Does it mean you should totally ignore it and do whatever you want? No. Does it mean you CAN totally ignore it and do your own thing? Sure. Your post has has led me to a little more introspection then I had planned to while cruising the boards to procrastinate putting together my father's present for tomorrow, Matte. I thinks its pride. I didn't notice it until I really thought about it but there is a feeling of self-satisfaction when I poo-poo a "powergamer" or a "cheeseweasel," even though I sit around at least one night a week with my brother and friends discussing our own builds, etc. I mean I can't stand Druid PCs and I hate judging tables with them, usually because they walk over combats I have spent time trying to make challenging, etc. As a judge I need to work on seeing it less of a "Judge vs. the PCs" and just appreciate the cleverness and creativity of my fellow players. Looking back on this, I am feeling a little embarrassed to have turned this thread into an episode of "Oprah." Now I just know Arrias is going to use this against Arafinwe the next time our odd couple gets together. Ian p.s. I really don't have an opinion in re the Occult Slayer, I was just posting what I thought might add some insight in the discussion taking place.
GreatSiron 06-16-07, 11:20 PM	Looking back on this, I am feeling a little embarrassed to have turned this thread into an episode of "Oprah." Now I just know Arrias is going to use this against Arafinwe the next time our odd couple gets together. Ian Well, at least this thread hasn't turned into "Jerry Springer". Not yet anyway.
boogahwoof 06-17-07, 02:20 AM	In responce to having a game ruined by someone's build I submit this for you guys rambling. I played Scourge of the Holwing Horde recently, and at our table we had a beguiler, who at every fight, (all 7 of them) put everything to sleep as a 1st level character. So the mod wasnt that fun, was it his fault, I dont think so. Sometimes rolls just go that way. Like mama says "sometimes it just bees that way". So are we to down and degrade him for giving himself a high charisma to start with and spell school focus to bump his dc to like a 17 at 1st level?
_metz_ 06-17-07, 03:44 AM	In responce to having a game ruined by someone's build I submit this for you guys rambling. I played Scourge of the Holwing Horde recently, and at our table we had a beguiler, who at every fight, (all 7 of them) put everything to sleep as a 1st level character. So the mod wasnt that fun, was it his fault, I dont think so. Sometimes rolls just go that way. Like mama says "sometimes it just bees that way". So are we to down and degrade him for giving himself a high charisma to start with and spell school focus to bump his dc to like a 17 at 1st level? Please. Say hello to colour spray and Grey wizards - we have ALL encountered that :)
GreatSiron 06-17-07, 08:04 AM	Please. Say hello to colour spray and Grey wizards - we have ALL encountered that :) Please, I am that. :D And I played Scourge with a Druid. And his two riding dogs. Needless to say they tore nearly everything in that mod apart.
ithardin 06-17-07, 03:37 PM	Urgh... I regularly play with TWO druids (the PCs are RPed as a grandfather & grandson). I call the older PC "Grampa Entangle." Nothing like being +13 at 6th level vs. Humans with your 8000K magic sword and have to sit and shoot arrows at them (at a much lower attack bonus) because those two have layered their entangles, etc. Ian p.s. and they have apes AND they both summon... SOOOO, I might not be too bummed out to play with an Occult Slayer at the table :D At least I would be able to enter Melee next to him :)
magebeast 06-18-07, 12:46 AM	Please. Say hello to colour spray and Grey wizards - we have ALL encountered that :) I play a 20 int wizard (albeit in a different campaign) and the same thing can hold true for slightly higher level encounters too. :P Especially when you're fighting a lot of humanoids. "Okay, can all four of those guys make me some will saves please? DC 18" *DM Rolls* "...they failed, what was that again?" "Glitterdust" "..." *DM looks at the four melee-based PCs left at the table, not yet gone due to my Wizard's high initiave* "Yeah they're dead"
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 06-18-07, 02:47 AM	I never saw Occult Slayer as a prestige class for characters that hate magic and gains their power from their hatred I always imagined them to being akin to rangers. An occult slayer's skills and abilities come from training and specialization and just because they are particularly good at killing magic users doesn't mean they hate them with a blinding passion. This feels like the old 3.0 debate about rangers with favored enemy - human.
_metz_ 06-18-07, 03:12 AM	I never saw Occult Slayer as a prestige class for characters that hate magic and gains their power from their hatred I always imagined them to being akin to rangers. An occult slayer's skills and abilities come from training and specialization and just because they are particularly good at killing magic users doesn't mean they hate them with a blinding passion. This feels like the old 3.0 debate about rangers with favored enemy - human. I never had issue with that, nor could understand the arguments against it. I mean one can live in an oppressive Human regime and have never seen elves and dwarves etc before. Why are humans not allowed to be what you are good at killing? People who were against that didn't seem to be very logical and I didn't spend much time debating it with them :) Apparently its only ok to kill non humans. Thats speciest. As for the occult Slayer, I reiterate what I have already said, I am fine with out of the ordinary occult slayers, but I do expect them to roleplay those levels in SOME fashion of hating magic. Doesn't need to be their party members, but it is inherently the point of the class. (Hating it doesn't mean not using it btw, one often must use methods that are despicable to win - e.g: guerrilla tactics etc) I treat clerics of Cuthbert who break laws frivolously and other such examples the same way.
Ferol, Debtor of Torm 06-18-07, 03:24 AM	The only character I've ever consider going Occult Slayer with was my bard and that was only a result of being screwed over by a large church of his after helping them out with a pretty big problem they were having. I'm sure those of you have done it know exactly what I'm talking about.
ARlife 06-18-07, 12:17 PM	Hey that sounds like a guy I know, except his bard didnt get screwed over, he just made a very poor decision in dealing with that church. Except for the fact that Occult Slayer does nothing for his char, he insists on taking it just to spite said church. Keep telling him warchanter is so much better, but hes stubborn and wont listen to reason.
soonerpat 06-19-07, 08:38 PM	I play an occult slayer with my son. We started the PC's 4 years ago as twin half-orc barbarains. When we introduce ourselves as Baraq and Baracq (or "you" and "me") at the table, with identical miniatures, accents, and identically named horses and dogs, we also add that we oppose the *irresponsible* use of magic -- it makes us "mad". It's a major part of the *character* of the PC now and the tables we play with enjoy the role playing and the special abilities the Bara(c)q twins bring to the table. Last year at origins one judge wrote a special note on our AR's recognizing the role playing, and the last judge had heard about us in the judges room and was glad to see the characters at his table. The PrC abilities from Occult Slayer are not abused nor do they unbalance the table. In the 2 years since we've started playing these levels of OS, we've seen 1 (only one) other occult slayer, and that was at a con my son was a judge for just last weekend. Also during that time the power of the PC has not been driven by the PrC Occult slayer levels, it comes from the barbarian and focus on attacking with the corresponding loss in defensive abilities. Soooo, I believe it is possible to play the PC compatibly with others, and have a great time at the table. There are not that many OS's out there (due to the build requirements I think) and the class is not required to remove and refuse all magic. It's well within the design of the class to focus on certain uses. I would be very disappointed if, after 2 years of very enjoyable playing of these characters someone took them out of the campaign because they couldn't figure out how to make it work. Pat Smith aka "Baraq", aka "You"
LGMoses 06-22-07, 01:02 AM	And that's the tradeoff for sitting next to either the 20 STR Barbarian named Dud, thats what I like about LG is that you can play your character how you want. I TRY to instill a sense of belonging to the region in my group, its hard sometimes but worth it when they rally themselves and soldiers around them, "Raise the spear!" But yeah, if i remember correctly, the DMG encourages DM's to make their own tailor-made prestige classes (the black tower wizards example if i remember correctly) All these prestige classes released in the splat books are just examples and ideas. But maybe the "occult slayer" doesn't hate magic, he's just studied up on how to fight it off (you going to tell someone that meets the reqs with spellcraft they haven't?) They can play it how they want. NOW, the overabundance of people with the class. Well, that shows it as being... well, ... on the upper end of the power band. I'd make it limited. I would NOT ban such a popular class, just make it where your character needs special training to enter it or something. You need someone to open your eyes to the class and teach you the ways to turn magic back upon its user. Something like that. So I say, play your characters how you want. Maybe look at limiting it and/or some of the other classes that are being taken to such an extent as to make up the large majority of gaming tables, but I'm not sure thats even a problem as I live in a small town area with a local group of 10 people or so ranging from lvl 1 - 3.