Post/Author/DateTime	Post
control freak 06-25-07, 03:02 PM	this is for every ones oppinions on the most powerfull NONC spells (please condence spell sets such as conj ice beast and the like into 1 list as 1-9 would be redundant) 1 : summon dragon ally (yah some exp and gp is bad price but "win this encounter) once or twice is tipicaly worth the xp and i would definately pay the costs 2 : conj ice beast 3 : close wounds (healers are broken with this) 4 : dark fire (this can be just funny if it is done right) 5 : shivering touch (just because it stacks and no SR is allowed) 6 : 7 : sound lance 8 : Stabelize (with healer its great) 9 : 10 : theres a few slots that i had several compeating for so i left them blank but i definately believe that summon dragon ally is just dumb for greyhawk because if your in the middle of grayhawk or hardby or any where for that matter a huge or gargantuan dragon following you is just funny and easly broken even the costs dont out wheigh the benifits in several mods and in DMs High challange it could be very well stupid when you just decide to dump a 20+ HD gold dragon on a pit fiend /balor other spells of note that i believe can be broken for gray hawk are sound lance and conj ice beast spells please note your top 10 in the way above so it is clear how you ranked them
Grantor 06-25-07, 03:13 PM	When talking about the "most powerful spells", wouldn't it be better to split them up by level. And possibly even by Arcane/Divine? Seems weird to me to compare Magic Missle to Wish. (Or Close Wounds to Summon Greater Dragon Ally.) Also, remember for any NONC spell, the players are going to be on the recieving end, in most cases, before they earn the access.
Britt 06-25-07, 03:14 PM	Close wounds and stabilize are not that powerful at all. They are mildly to decently useful, but not at all above the norm for their level. My cleric in our home game carries close wounds, but I rarely need it and it definitely doesn't turn the tide of battle; it basically just gives me the ability to heal a little bit more damage in one round. Sound lance is really good. I don't remember most of the others off the top of my head, at least not well enough to judge their power. I can say I would not give access to summon dragon ally for canon flavor reasons; dragons are not supposed to be that common in Greyhawk.
control freak 06-25-07, 04:40 PM	I can say I would not give access to summon dragon ally for canon flavor reasons; dragons are not supposed to be that common in Greyhawk. simply put i agree with you if it ever becomes open, or even gained acess via limited it would be crazy (because frankly DMs high could be nearly made easy, you could do it 2 times to get 2 flanking gold dragons that are gargantuan (yah upwards of 10 grand but if its do this or die and the adventure is worth more then 10k in cap then it would happen alot) and sound lance imoh is only NONC because its cleric, for any arcane class it would be much more balance, even if it was just non sonic damage or D6s it might have been open but it is much more resonable then summon dragon ally (which is simply rediculous and needs errata that it costs TU too or if granted acess by a mod it will get closed shortly after) also i think that your right the top 10 divine spells need to be on a list and the top ten arcane spells need a list as well
Mithreinmaethor 06-25-07, 06:52 PM	I can say I would not give access to summon dragon ally for canon flavor reasons; dragons are not supposed to be that common in Greyhawk. Have you been in the BK or Dyvers recently :) Not that common. Please
Britt 06-25-07, 07:00 PM	Have you been in the BK or Dyvers recently :) Not that common. Please Considering I live in the BK and edit all their mods, I think I've been there ;) I didn't say dragons don't exist, just that you don't see them all the time.
dkay807 06-25-07, 08:08 PM	Top NONC spells: 1. Nerveskitter - +5 to initiative as an immediate-cast-before-combat action in a first level slot? Could it get better? If only it were range: close so that you could chain it... oh wait... it is. 2. Heroics - Give anybody any fighter bonus feat he wants as a second level spell that lasts 10/level? Sure, why not. I tell everyone I adventure with that if they buy a 4th level pearl and a rod of lesser extend, I can give them any fighter bonus feat they want for most of the day, every day. Bonus feats for 7k... lovely. 3. Dragonskin - I've been casting this since Year 4 and now that Alter Self is gone... this spell takes the cake. Another 10/level +5 AC boost that also gives you resistance 20 to one type of energy. Sure it's a third level slot but it's well worth it, especially since it's so stylish. Having draconic scales is way cooler than running around like some lame troglodyte. 4. Stone Body - It's like Iron Body but better... and it's two spell levels lower. On top of that, you don't suffer that pesky spell failure and you can heal yourself for full with a 5th level slot. Any melee/caster should be drooling for access to this. Too bad my 15th level Spellsword who just got access can only cast 5's (damn, if only I had known!) 5. Illusory Pit - Sure, they toned it down. It's still nasty and we all know it. 6. Blast of Sand - 1d6/level cone that has no SR and deals raw scouring sand damage. It loses its value at higher levels, but there's no reason not to prepare this spell if you have access up to level 12. I can't finish 7-10 because I'm late... but those are some of the best, IMO.
solbergb 06-25-07, 08:36 PM	Nerveskitter is good but so is benign transposition. That said - I'm just starting to play with nerveskitter on my archer (I suspect I'll be using it on others quite often, if I know they can dominate an encounter more than I can if they just act early). So I may be underestimating it's impact.
solbergb 06-25-07, 08:37 PM	Considering I live in the BK and edit all their mods, I think I've been there ;) I didn't say dragons don't exist, just that you don't see them all the time. Near as I can tell the BK has one big dragon and many polymorph-assisted spawn...... at least that's how it was when I visited....
kjenks 06-25-07, 08:40 PM	Nerveskitter doesn't work as written. It's an immediate action, and the spellcaster can't take an immediate action while flat-footed, so it can never be cast.
kegdrainer 06-25-07, 08:46 PM	I do not know where it should place on the list of top ten NONC spells but Benign Transposition should be on it. Fast character runs up and takes a swipe at bad guy, tank readies, wizard swaps them and the tank gets to full attack instead of moving. Extra points since its verbal only. Great for Gishes. Also, you can use it to get the characters around obstacles, making it useful in and out of combat. OK, how is the centaur going to climb that ladder? Not bad for a first level spell.
Eric Anondson 06-25-07, 08:54 PM	One spell that has become part of my permanent paladin spell repertoire is righteous fury. 3rd level paladin spell For 1 min/caster level, +4 sacred bonus to Strength (so it stacks with bull's strength and any other effect that bestows enhancement modifiers to Str like my belt), and . . . For 1 hour, 5 temporary hit points/caster level. As a 7th level holy liberator (15th level character) my character casts paladin spells as a 7th level caster. For 1 hour I get 35 extra hit points. (!) I cast this spell all the time, it has saved my rear end more times than I can count. I am so thankful I got access so many years ago to righteous fury. There are some stellar paladin spells that are NONC. [edit]Ken Jenks summed up my problem with nerveskitter.
CdrcJsn 06-25-07, 09:11 PM	Nerveskitter doesn't work as written. It's an immediate action, and the spellcaster can't take an immediate action while flat-footed, so it can never be cast. You're not flat footed until you roll initiative. You can cast nerveskitter (or any immediate action spells) before initiative is rolled. Quirky, but that's how I see it (or try to make sense of how it fits with normal rules for casting).
KarmaInferno 06-25-07, 09:17 PM	I do not know where it should place on the list of top ten NONC spells but Benign Transposition should be on it. Fast character runs up and takes a swipe at bad guy, tank readies, wizard swaps them and the tank gets to full attack instead of moving. Extra points since its verbal only. Great for Gishes. Not so fun when several NPCs are doing it and your tank gets multiple beef attackers full attacking him, and he dies before even getting to his first action. -karma
dkay807 06-25-07, 10:44 PM	Nerveskitter doesn't work as written. It's an immediate action, and the spellcaster can't take an immediate action while flat-footed, so it can never be cast. Nerveskitter's description explicitly states that you cast it when initiative is rolled. Therefore, it overrides the standard rule one follows regarding immediate actions and when one can take them. R&D wouldn't make a spell that didn't work. That's just inane. And yes, I forgot about Benign Transposition. That's up in the top 5 without a doubt. Both of my arcane casters have it and use it frequently.
Jay_Ibero_911 06-26-07, 12:05 AM	I cast my vote for mass snake's swiftness. My druid has it and it is very tactically handy, and I love it when my rhino gets to charge for double damage, and then gets an extra attack from my spell, especially if he is charging into flanking with another party member who will also get an extra attack...
SirApropos 06-26-07, 12:06 AM	I became a big fan of Alter Fortune (3rd lvl from PH2) when it saved our tank from a crit that would have killed him this past weekend in a BI. I also can't wait to try out Celerity (also PH2) when I am able to cast 4th level spells.
Mithreinmaethor 06-26-07, 12:34 AM	Considering I live in the BK and edit all their mods, I think I've been there ;) I didn't say dragons don't exist, just that you don't see them all the time. no no I know where you are thats why I was making the joke. But there are alot of Dragons around in both regions. Considering more than 1 is alot to me
Lomiat 06-26-07, 12:57 AM	I became a big fan of Alter Fortune (3rd lvl from PH2) when it saved our tank from a crit that would have killed him this past weekend in a BI. I also can't wait to try out Celerity (also PH2) when I am able to cast 4th level spells. Celerity? I will steal your spellbook. Resistance is futile. Apart from my jealousy over Sir Apropos' Celerty (mitigated somewhat by having a pretty decent spellbook), I'll list the following spells -- in no particular order -- among my top 10 NONC for Sorcerer/Wizard spells: 1-Nerveskitter. It's Improved Initiative +1 (or like an amp that goes up to 11). If you have two Pearls of Power 1 and happen to play LG where it's unlikely you'll face a 4th combat, then it's better than Improved Initiative. Of course, stack it with Improved Initiative, and you're arcanist will have to work at letting the bad guys survive long enough for your friends to kill stuff, too. 2-Heroics. Because it's simply ridiculous to build-a-figher (TM). 3-Radiant Assault. Area of effect damage spell that does 1d6/level? Yawn... But it's the Light descriptor? Hmm, well, I guess that'll bypass fire resistance. And it's a Will save for half? You mean, rogues can't evade it? That's cool. And it dazes anyone who fails for 1d6 rounds? You mean the LAST 1d6 ROUNDS OF THEIR LIVES? SIGN ME UP!!! 4 + 5: Dragonskin and Benign Transposition. For reasons already stated earlier. 6-Spell Enhancer. Swift action to make your next spell caster level +2 and DC +1. Is it a Spell Penetration plus Spell Focus? Or is it that extra bump you need to make your Greater Magic Weapon +5 for the whole day? It's both if you have enough slots. Count your 4th level slots, and this occupies at least half as soon as your immediate combat spells go above 4th level. 7-Greater Dimension Door. This is just sick. And wrong. And I've got a monk buddy with the Sun School tactical feat who's going to see the very, very naughty side of this spell in the next battle interactive he plays with my wizard. 8-Sonorous Hum. Want to use Telekinesis? But you want to do other things, too? Why, then, you, my friend, might be interested in a Sonorous Hum. Also good for Detect Magic, Rainbow Pattern, Harmonic Chorus and a handful of other cool concentration spells. (Best for Telekinesis.) 9-Assay Spell Resistance. Why my wizard wasn't afraid of SR 22 creatures at 9th level. I haven't used it much lately, but maybe that's because of the recent paradigm shift in the IUZ metaregion. In the right circumstances, it's hard to beat this spell. 10-Celerity. Okay, my wizard hasn't picked this one up yet, but that's okay because Sir Apropos is eventually going to fail his DC 29 Will save against my Greater Scrying, and then I'll hunt down his spellbook and steal the secrets from him... provided he doesn't just offer to trade secrets. My wizard already works hard to take as many actions as possible in a round; casting a quickened spell, a normal spell, directing another spell with a move action, and... using Celerity to take another standard action? That's just the end of a combat. (Use in moderation. Not for all tables. Do not use with BDFs who complain that they never get to hit anything. Some creatures have multiple spell immunities. In case of complications, consult your warmage.) Honorary Mention: Ray of Stupidity-It was too good to be true... Really. We miss you, Ray of Stupidity. We miss all the insta-blinked 300+ HP big, dumb monsters... (Well, we miss them a little.)
Eric Anondson 06-26-07, 01:58 AM	2-Heroics. Because it's simply ridiculous to build-a-figher (TM).I think there was a thread recently that had folks who argued that a recipient of heroics cannot get multiple heroics bestowing different feats. I'd like to believe that, because combining heroics with multiple pearls of power 2nd, and a rod of lesser extend, and you begin to make the entire fighter class completely irrelevent. Get this spell to an arcane cohort of a high level martial-type PC and it's silly season . . . if multiple heroics stack. But if multiple heroics giving different feats cannot stack, isn't that like saying that multiple resist energy protecting from different energies cannot stack?
Britt 06-26-07, 02:01 AM	But if multiple heroics giving different feats cannot stack, isn't that like saying that multiple resist energy protecting from different energies cannot stack? Yes it is, and I've seen a compelling argument that this is true. I haven't reviewed it enough to be sure, but I think it might just be right.
Gwumph 06-26-07, 02:41 AM	My personal favorite 1st level spell Rhino Rush: get a charging paladin with 2 or 3 pearls of power. Swift action increase the modifer by 1 on a charge. Deadly, deadly. Usually adds another 25-30 points damage. no-crit hit would do at least 100 + 4d6 damage at 8th lv. do 2 of those in an encounter and the BBEG is going down
Eric Anondson 06-26-07, 02:58 AM	My personal favorite 1st level spell Rhino Rush: get a charging paladin with 2 or 3 pearls of power. Swift action increase the modifer by 1 on a charge. Deadly, deadly. Usually adds another 25-30 points damage. no-crit hit would do at least 100 + 4d6 damage at 8th lv. do 2 of those in an encounter and the BBEG is going downYeah, there's another paladin spell I lust for my holy liberator.
copper_wyrmling 06-26-07, 03:57 AM	Since I don't have most of my books with me at the moment, I'm sticking to the Spell Compendium (these are in no particular order). 1. Assay Spell Resistance 2. Benign Transposition 3. Knight's Move 4. Close Wounds 5. Radiant Assault 6. Spell Enhancer 7. Heroics 8. Greater Dimension Door 9. Illusory Pit 10. Undead Bane Weapon My wild mage wants Moonbow, Rainbow Beam and Ruby Ray of Reversal, but that's mostly for flavor reasons.
twells 06-26-07, 04:45 AM	I cast my vote for mass snake's swiftness. My druid has it and it is very tactically handy, and I love it when my rhino gets to charge for double damage, and then gets an extra attack from my spell, especially if he is charging into flanking with another party member who will also get an extra attack... Another vote for this one. My sorcerer got access and all I have to say is that this spell is AWESOME. It scales upward nicely as party strengths increase as well. Even at modest levels ... a short delay action until everyone is set up for a strike and POW. Mo money, mo money, mo money. I also have to put a vote for Benign Transposition ... but my sorcerer uses Baleful Transposition instead. Can be used like benign for the charger-switch-to-fighter-full-attack-so-the-heedless-charger-can-charge-again-next-round gambit, but have been able to flip some surprised animals into the maws of some nasty improved grabber / grapplers (animals are rarely willing to do this, but they have sucky Will saves and usually dont get a choice). BTW, everyone should have at least one mule hanging around ....
dkay807 06-26-07, 07:37 AM	Oh, I forgot about Greater Mirror Image. All the good stuff about Mirror Image plus it's an immediate action and you "grow" another image every round. Just plain wow.
Banor 06-26-07, 08:12 AM	My necromancer would kill for Escalating Enfeeblement, 1d10+5 penality to STR ? Awsome ! Oh he need to have a Penality/Ability damage/exhausted/fatigued, damn i wish that was what all my spells are about .... oh wait.
Lomiat 06-26-07, 08:19 AM	On second thought, I'd swap Sonorous Hum from my list for Ray of Clumsiness. It's a Ray of Enfeeblement for DEX that just happens to be low-enough level that at high levels, the Quicked Ray of Clumsiness, plus Reflex save-or-be-done combinations come together nicely. Quickened Ray of Clumsiness plus Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is the combination I look forward to using the next time in a battle I want to focus team efforts away from one particular creature.
copper_wyrmling 06-26-07, 08:35 AM	Oh, I forgot about Greater Mirror Image. All the good stuff about Mirror Image plus it's an immediate action and you "grow" another image every round. Just plain wow. Yeah, that one's ridiculous. I would like ray of clumsiness more if it wasn't for the fact that the creatures who rely heavily on Dex also tend to be relatively difficult to tag with ranged-touch spells. On the other hand, it IS nice as a quickened save-debuffer.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 11:17 AM	I also have to put a vote for Benign Transposition ... but my sorcerer uses Baleful Transposition instead. Can be used like benign for the charger-switch-to-fighter-full-attack-so-the-heedless-charger-can-charge-again-next-round gambit, but have been able to flip some surprised animals into the maws of some nasty improved grabber / grapplers (animals are rarely willing to do this, but they have sucky Will saves and usually dont get a choice). BTW, everyone should have at least one mule hanging around .... I agree, its the same as benign (Can affect allies) but can also affect enemies, and is the same level. Hence better than Benign. I once got the choice between the two spells in my access, and couldn't work out WHY I wouldn't learn Baleful... BALEFUL TRANSPOSITION Conjuration (Teleportation) Level: Sorcerer/wizard 2 Components: V Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Targets: Two creatures of up to Large size Duration: Instantaneous Saving Throw: Will negates Spell Resistance: Yes Two target creatures, of which you can be one, instantly swap positions. A solid object such as the ground, a bridge, or a rope must connect the creatures. Both subjects must be within range. Objects carried by the creatures (up to the creatures’ maximum loads) go with them, but other creatures do not, even if they are carried. The movement is instantaneous and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If either creature succeeds on its Will save, the spell is negated. Its the exact same, as allies can willingly fail thier save, and you get bad guys too!
Mattastrophic 06-26-07, 11:40 AM	I once got the choice between the two spells in my access, and couldn't work out WHY I wouldn't learn Baleful... Benign Transposition is a Sor/Wiz1 spell. -Matt
solbergb 06-26-07, 12:23 PM	Nerveskitter doesn't work as written. It's an immediate action, and the spellcaster can't take an immediate action while flat-footed, so it can never be cast. Yes Ken. Which is why the spell has to be considered an exception to the usual immediate action rules, just as feather fall is. Its text on when it can be cast overrules the general immediate action rule.
solbergb 06-26-07, 12:26 PM	Celerity? Huh..I thought celerity was on the Closed list. Did that change in LGCS7.5 (which I am still too lazy to upgrade my acrobat to read)?
solbergb 06-26-07, 12:30 PM	I agree, its the same as benign (Can affect allies) but can also affect enemies, and is the same level. Hence better than Benign. Baleful isn't the same as benign. Both targets need to be touching the same surface - a limitation benign doesn't have. Given the number of times I've used benign transposition to save party members in trouble who were flying, or to get a nonclimber/flier up to where my bat familiar was....that's a limitation I couldn't live with. The low save DC on baleful can make a "sure thing" swap into "oops, I wasted my action, sorry fred, you're gonna die". Although I admit that swapping domestica animals with +1 will saves is pretty clever.
bitznarf 06-26-07, 12:39 PM	Remember, each player can only bring along one critter that will have an impact on a fight. Animal companions/special mounts/familiars and the like excluded from that limit. So only one donkey/rat per player, lol.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 01:08 PM	Benign Transposition is a Sor/Wiz1 spell. -Matt Ah I missed that, baleful is 2 and benign is first, and I have played with several people with both spells a lot! Schoolboy error for sure. IN regards to the same surface, that is a good point.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 01:10 PM	Remember, each player can only bring along one critter that will have an impact on a fight. Animal companions/special mounts/familiars and the like excluded from that limit. So only one donkey/rat per player, lol. Animal Companions + Familiars + Cohorts +1 special animal (e.g: Dire Eagle) Can be a lot of beasties...
Mattastrophic 06-26-07, 01:18 PM	Yes Ken. Which is why the spell has to be considered an exception to the usual immediate action rules, just as feather fall is. Its text on when it can be cast overrules the general immediate action rule. Nerveskitter expends your Quickened spell for Round1, which reins in its power. I'd have to figure out a way to get my familiar to cast it on me. -Matt refuses to add to a "Pick 10 spells so the Circle can ban them!" thread.
_metz_ 06-26-07, 01:21 PM	-Matt refuses to add to a "Pick 10 spells so the Circle can ban them!" thread. heehee
SirApropos 06-26-07, 02:06 PM	Celerity isn't on the closed list for either LGCS7.0 or 7.5 so it's NONC. I got it from an item from one of last years CORE Specials. I also got Celerity, Lesser from there and that's been a good one as well to avoid getting caught in AOE spells. Huh..I thought celerity was on the Closed list. Did that change in LGCS7.5 (which I am still too lazy to upgrade my acrobat to read)?
Reylance 06-26-07, 02:16 PM	The value of 10min/level spells, and even 1min/level spells at higher levels, really comes from certainty of time frame for use. If you're entering a dungeon, stepping into a suspicious warehouse, or preparing to defend the walls in an interactive, you know these spells will serve you for the duration of the conflict. I loved the LG specials that were dungeon crawls, because it's easy to prepare for them in this way. I'd put up Alter Self, Resist Energy, Shield, Jump, Blur, and other useful spells. These spells are also more valuable when they can be recurred with sorcerer spellcasting or pearls, and extended with rods or the feat.
dkay807 06-26-07, 05:57 PM	-Matt refuses to add to a "Pick 10 spells so the Circle can ban them!" thread. I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to think that we've "gotten a few past the circle." I have no doubt that they have evaluated all of the spells we're discussing here long before this thread was even begun. There is a line that often gets blurred between rules items that are "really good" and rules items that are "broken." From what I see, the Circle typically moves rules items to the closed list that they deem to be either inconsistent with LG canon, too "evil to be used by PCs" (I can't articulate it better) or just broken. The spells we're discussing are really quite good, but I don't think any of them cross that fine line I mentioned earlier. If those spells were moved to the closed list, then we'd be discussing a different group of spells, etc. etc. It's not as though Britt is likely to be sitting in his chair reading this post and scratching his head thinking "What? That spell does that!? Why didn't we put that on the closed list?"
Lomiat 06-26-07, 06:30 PM	I wouldn't be so presumptuous as to think that we've "gotten a few past the circle." I have no doubt that they have evaluated all of the spells we're discussing here long before this thread was even begun. There is a line that often gets blurred between rules items that are "really good" and rules items that are "broken." From what I see, the Circle typically moves rules items to the closed list that they deem to be either inconsistent with LG canon, too "evil to be used by PCs" (I can't articulate it better) or just broken. The spells we're discussing are really quite good, but I don't think any of them cross that fine line I mentioned earlier. If those spells were moved to the closed list, then we'd be discussing a different group of spells, etc. etc. It's not as though Britt is likely to be sitting in his chair reading this post and scratching his head thinking "What? That spell does that!? Why didn't we put that on the closed list?" For the most part, I agree with you, but I'm pretty sure if I gained access to Celerity, it would end on the Closed list before too long. Just because. I had Ray of Stupidity, and I would say that Celerity is easily "more broken." Nonetheless, I must still find a way to copy it out of Sir Apropos' spellbook...
Britt 06-26-07, 06:34 PM	It's not as though Britt is likely to be sitting in his chair reading this post and scratching his head thinking "What? That spell does that!? Why didn't we put that on the closed list?" No, I'm sitting in my grandparents' chair thinking "I better check the thread to make sure there's nothing I've completely missed" or "that I want to put on an NPC!" ;) For the most part, I've seen all these spells. There are spells that I think are too good for their level, but not so much that something needs to be done. Heck, I'm one of the more conservative members, but actually restricting something takes a pretty clear problem. If I were to try to restrict everything that was too good, I'd be going after many PH spells as well :) There are a few spells I'm thinking of, but don't want to mention here :p
just_be_glad_now 06-26-07, 08:00 PM	The only spell I'd immediately add would be Resistance, Superior. It's a great night-before buff. Brayden
Lomiat 06-26-07, 09:11 PM	The only spell I'd immediately add would be Resistance, Superior. It's a great night-before buff. Brayden For clerics, Mass Conviction is rather impressive, too.
Maesto 06-26-07, 11:29 PM	mmm... there are certainly some nice spells being listed here, although I'm curious as to why some are getting mentioned. What was so crash hot about greater dimension door, or illusory pit? I've just picked up the former, but I've had the latter for a long time, but I stopped using it when the SC version came out. Sure, it's a will save or have lots of trouble coming your way, but it's only a step up from hold monster, and has a one round casting time. Mass fireshield works pretty damn well. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that one yet. Also, what reflex save or be screwed spells are there? There are obvious fort/will examples, but most of the reflex ones are simply damage. The exception I can think of is resilient sphere, but it's only a removal spell, not a killing spell.
_metz_ 06-27-07, 12:11 AM	mmm... there are certainly some nice spells being listed here, although I'm curious as to why some are getting mentioned. What was so crash hot about greater dimension door, or illusory pit? I've just picked up the former, but I've had the latter for a long time, but I stopped using it when the SC version came out. Sure, it's a will save or have lots of trouble coming your way, but it's only a step up from hold monster, and has a one round casting time. Mass fireshield works pretty damn well. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that one yet. Also, what reflex save or be screwed spells are there? There are obvious fort/will examples, but most of the reflex ones are simply damage. The exception I can think of is resilient sphere, but it's only a removal spell, not a killing spell. 1. You get a save each round on hold monster. And they fall prone and just chill. You can remove a character effectively from the fight that way. 2. Fort/Will saves are always much worse if you fail em. Hence I always don't mind if reflex isn't that good, its will or fort that will kill ya! (Yay for Mettle) 3. As so many things have evasion or often a high dex, reflex saves get passed pretty easily comparatively to stuff like will. (Most people don't have crazy high will OR crazy high will saves, with the exception of clerics, druids, and monks., thats only one of the 4 basic iconics.)
control freak 06-27-07, 12:11 AM	because this is greyhawk and everything seems to have fire resistance, or immunity (as a matter of fact i just dont take fireball with my wiz i take lightning bolt because over coming resistance is just needed the AoE isnt needed as bad i will not even take fire damage yes i sopose this is some what metagaming but then taking ACID, ELEC, AND COLD orbs to mess with the resistances is fun, but then again so is orb of force....) i think that my vote has to stay for sound lance, summon dragon ally, and conj ice beast spells being the best NONC spells with some otheres being listed the dragon ally being the most broken as it could snap in half the power curve, especialy if some one stacked it i can see things like this happening in meta regions DM: ok you see a gargantuian red dragon (CR 19 apl 8 untired encounter) level 9 wiz : ok i won initantive with nerve skitter and improved initative, so heres my move (puts down his huge dragon mini) DM: whats that wiz: a huge gold dragon, now he makes a full attack DM: AC 39? wiz: all the attacks hit 1 crits and conferms. and then the dragon then attacks the other dragon. DM: ok the dragon scratches and slams at the gold dragon wiz: ok, (gets another dragon mini out) time to do this again...... oh yah and now they ARE quite flanked (booooo whooooo it cost me some xp and the party will split some of the gold cost up) so i get to kill a CR 19 at apl 8 and gain nothing for it but may just ruin the mod (as running may be required or fail the mod but how would killing the dragon be failing?) (I DO NOT KNOW OF ANY MOD LIKE THIS THIS IS NOT MEANT TO BE A SPOILER I HAVE ONLY FOUGHT 1 DRAGON EVER AND IT WASNT LIKE THIS ) i personaly think that things like that would be just UNfair as summoning 15+ HD of dragon and then doing it again (or letting another wiz do the same thing) lets you be rediculously over CRed you maby be CR 9 but its not a real CR...
CdrcJsn 06-27-07, 12:36 AM	Umm...that is impressive. Amazing what you can do when you just ignore the rules.
_metz_ 06-27-07, 01:21 AM	Umm...that is impressive. Amazing what you can do when you just ignore the rules. I was going to say something similar.
copper_wyrmling 06-27-07, 01:28 AM	I got it from an item from one of last years CORE Specials. I also got Celerity, Lesser from there and that's been a good one as well to avoid getting caught in AOE spells. I've played or read all of them I think (Pits of Azak-Zil, Shadows of the Dread Spiral, Hanging Glacier) and don't remember seeing that access: would you mind dropping me a PM to let me know which one it was? I'm curious now ;)
Eric Anondson 06-27-07, 01:37 AM	Umm...that is impressive. Amazing what you can do when you just ignore the rules.Like the 10 minute casting time? Or the 1 round minimum bargaining before it does anything for you, or the time involved in payment? Yeah.
Drezden 06-27-07, 02:25 AM	2 Points: 1. Mass Fireshield was changed in the SC to a full round action; so if you try and cast it, you become a target for a full round before it goes off - not something you really want to do at high APLs especially. 2. What is so hot about Greater Dim Door?? Have you carefully read the spell (not trying to be rude here)?? You can Dim Door every round -- as a move action! Are you kidding me?? So - Dim Door BDFs in, they full attack; Round 2 Delay, BDFs full attack and then you take standard action (i.e. cast spell) and then use move action to Dim Door everyone out of danger. The potential for abuse is incredible. Daren mmm... there are certainly some nice spells being listed here, although I'm curious as to why some are getting mentioned. What was so crash hot about greater dimension door, or illusory pit? I've just picked up the former, but I've had the latter for a long time, but I stopped using it when the SC version came out. Sure, it's a will save or have lots of trouble coming your way, but it's only a step up from hold monster, and has a one round casting time. Mass fireshield works pretty damn well. I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that one yet. Also, what reflex save or be screwed spells are there? There are obvious fort/will examples, but most of the reflex ones are simply damage. The exception I can think of is resilient sphere, but it's only a removal spell, not a killing spell.
Genghis Cohen 06-27-07, 12:52 PM	...full round action; so if you try and cast it, you become a target for a full round before it goes off - not something you really want to do at high APLs especially...Boy, did I learn that the hard way.
_metz_ 06-27-07, 02:14 PM	2 Points: 2. What is so hot about Greater Dim Door?? Have you carefully read the spell (not trying to be rude here)?? You can Dim Door every round -- as a move action! Are you kidding me?? So - Dim Door BDFs in, they full attack; Round 2 Delay, BDFs full attack and then you take standard action (i.e. cast spell) and then use move action to Dim Door everyone out of danger. The potential for abuse is incredible. Daren Seconded. And thirded for good measure.
solbergb 06-27-07, 02:56 PM	the problem with illusory pit was that it does something bad to you even if you save, comparable to power word stun but without the hitpoint restriction. open-ended stuff that takes away actions with no defense except spell resistence is just bad. Actions are the most precious commodity in the 12-16 game. as for greater dim door - yeah. What others said. You shouldn't be able to both drop your boom and dimension door, at least not without something like a quickened dim door. Bad enough celerity allows for this once or twice. Being able to do it with a single spell slot over and over....not good.
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 03:02 PM	Greater DimDoor has too many variables to control and too much setup time to complete. First you've gotta cast it and then spend a move to teleport, which only leaves a 5'step for setting up the port-over. Then you've gotta stay within 5' of your buddy, or you have to take a move action to retrieve him and another move action to port out. Too much effort. Just cast something else and end the combat on Round 1 instead. Again, I'd probably have to figure out a way to dip into my familiar's actions to make this one any good. -Matt
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 03:07 PM	the problem with illusory pit was that it does something bad to you even if you save, comparable to power word stun but without the hitpoint restriction. Full-round casting time is what kills it for me. I don't have that kind of time to devote to taking out one or two combatants. -Matt
GreatSiron 06-27-07, 04:00 PM	Too much effort. Just cast something else and end the combat on Round 1 instead. Again, I'd probably have to figure out a way to dip into my familiar's actions to make this one any good. -Matt Umm... what kind of spell would end a combat on round one?
Lomiat 06-27-07, 04:25 PM	Umm... what kind of spell would end a combat on round one? Feeblemind the spellcaster and Quicken Web the others. That worked.
Lomiat 06-27-07, 04:35 PM	2 Points: 1. Mass Fireshield was changed in the SC to a full round action; so if you try and cast it, you become a target for a full round before it goes off - not something you really want to do at high APLs especially. 2. What is so hot about Greater Dim Door?? Have you carefully read the spell (not trying to be rude here)?? You can Dim Door every round -- as a move action! Are you kidding me?? So - Dim Door BDFs in, they full attack; Round 2 Delay, BDFs full attack and then you take standard action (i.e. cast spell) and then use move action to Dim Door everyone out of danger. The potential for abuse is incredible. Daren I've got Mass Fireshield and rarely ever use it because: 1) it has a 1-round casting time, which seriously detracts from the "need it NOW" utility it could have had, and 2) by the time I get into combats with my wizard, I'm typically thinking of how to end them, rather than how to survive them. As others have mentioned, Greater Dim Door is simply outstanding. I fully intend to abuse it at the next battle interactive I play -- in combination with another player's PC -- well beyond the line of "brokenness." Fortunately, the brokenness has a lot to do with the other PC and shouldn't impact the feasibility of the spell in LG. (And, most likely, this will occur in Highfolk where "cheezed-out bad guy" is always the encounter du jour.) The fact, though, that it offers unparalleled mobility and still allows a spellcaster a standard action (and a swift action) means that melee combatants are obsolete against such casters (and the BDFs they 'port in and 'port out). AND it lets you play your PC like he/she is Nightcrawler. BAMF!
solbergb 06-27-07, 05:05 PM	Feeblemind the spellcaster and Quicken Web the others. That worked. well lets see what's wrong with that. Feeblemind gets saved against, you did nothing. The target might also prove to be immune for one reason or another (he just LOOKEd like a mind flayer, or was a projected image, or was an undead mindflayer) Any of the fighters has alch fire, you at best slowed them up a round. They might also have freedom of movement already running or the caster who resisted/was immune to your feeblemind does something about the web (dim door, fire spell...whatever) A heal on the feebleminded guy could put him back into the fight too. Bottom line, most people who have "end the fight spells" accept that a significant portion of the time, they'll instead "fizzle" and not do much of anything. The "sure thing" spells tend to slow the fight, rather than speed it up - what makes them desirable is that they turn an EL+3 encounter into a couple EL+1 encounters - slower but easier. going back to illusory pit - 1 round casting time isn't enough to make it not broken. Just rapid spell the thing (and with metamagic school focus, maybe even same cost) and boom - power word stun with no hitpoint limit and an even worse effect if the badguy fails the save. If something is good enough, people will do builds around it. With retraining, you won't even have to wait very long.
Mattastrophic 06-27-07, 05:15 PM	well lets see what's wrong with that. And as a "what if" counter to Greater DimDoor... Anticipate Teleportation. WHOOPS! To clarify, the main point I was getting across with my original statement is that it's a good idea to "end the fight" by setting up a situation on Round 1 where risk of serious harm is minimized and required resources to mop up is minimal. Not killing everything, but taking control of the situation. In a Battle Interactive, where Greater DimDoor will be lasting its entire duration, its effectiveness changes, of course. -Matt
Lomiat 06-27-07, 05:43 PM	well lets see what's wrong with that. Feeblemind gets saved against, you did nothing. The target might also prove to be immune for one reason or another (he just LOOKEd like a mind flayer, or was a projected image, or was an undead mindflayer) Any of the fighters has alch fire, you at best slowed them up a round... Etc. Solbergb, wow, I guess my post ruffled your feathers or something. I wasn't suggesting that would work every time. In fact, I wasn't suggesting it would ever work *again*. I did, however, write about how "that worked" in the past tense because, it did, in fact, end one encounter. But, yeah, all your points are well-taken. There are a lot of different things that could have happened. Unfortunately for the bad guys, and everyone who went behind my wizard in initiative, they didn't in that adventure -- to the point where I felt kind of bad, actually, that the actions managed to hose the bad guys as well as they had.
solbergb 06-27-07, 08:20 PM	Yes...my wife often feels a little guilt when her sacred exocist guts the fiend encounter by sending the dangerous folks home. I have to keep reminding her how delighted everybody else in the party is to NOT have to fight that encounter. Plus there is usually someone left behind for the rest of us to beat the tar out of. I don't have a lot of characters with that kind of potential myself, but when the situation comes up, I just look around the table for how people are acting. If everyone is relaxed and confident, maybe I use a little less boom. If everyone is looking scared, bring out the big guns. In any event, if you are only removing some of the opposition, not the entire encounter, I wouldn't hold back - people will expect you to be doing something positive along those lines and won't be upset if you're a bit better than they expected at it. One thing I make an exception for. Powerful enemy spellcasters - I feel zero guilt when my sorceress+bard cohort succeeds in a tag team evards+silence to shut down the spellcasting. It helps though that somebody else still needs to kill the caster pretty quickly, as it isn't certain they'll stay in that unfortunate condition.
lostpike 06-27-07, 08:40 PM	Well someone just mentioned one of my pre-buffs which i extend all the time. Anticipate teleport. It has broken mods for me where the writer always wants his people to teleport in!
Maesto 06-28-07, 03:26 AM	I disagree on Illusory Pit. The Complete Arcane version was "anybody who enters these 10 foot cubes makes a save. If they make the save, they're stunned for a round. If they fail, they're in deep trouble." The Spell Compendium version goes "anybody who's not flying who enters these 10 foot cubs makes a save. If they pass, nothing happens. If they fail, they claw at the ground until they take damage or the spell ends". It's not a save-or-be-screwed but you're screwed anyway spell now. It's just a set of 10 foot cubes which force willsaves. Sure, it's better than hold monster, as long as the monster doesn't see through illusion spells (ie, won't work on da big demons/devils), but it does have that annoying 1 round casting time. It's also SR: no for some reason which I can't quite figure out, but hey.
Dr.Cornelius 06-28-07, 04:37 AM	Divine Retaliation (PH2 p.110) is an excellent spell for Battle Clerics.
Hariman 07-01-07, 12:33 AM	Nerveskitter is good but so is benign transposition. That said - I'm just starting to play with nerveskitter on my archer (I suspect I'll be using it on others quite often, if I know they can dominate an encounter more than I can if they just act early). So I may be underestimating it's impact. I can't bust out a top 10 list, but I can give you my "MUST GET ACCESS" list. Bear in mind, this is the order that I thought of them. 1: Near Horizon, Ranger 2, Complete Mage, because, if you are a ranger or have access you can craft Horizon Goggles, which basically grant Far Shot for all of your ranged attacks INCLUDING SPELLS. It pretty Kick*** if you're a ranger and need to hit at long ranges too. It is divination, so you can gain it via Unseen Seer. But it's duration is only 3 rounds. 2: Arcane Fusion and Greater Arcane Fusion. Any sorcerer wants these spells. The ability to drop two buffs or toss two damage spells (Or one buff and one damage spell) is spectacular. Sure, you expend a higher level spell slot and a full round action, but two spells in one round without having to take Rapid Metamagic or Arcane Preparation can't be beat. Unless you take Rapid Metamagic and decide to bleed spell slots by quickening spells too. I doubt they'll make it into LG. 3: Hunter's Eye: Another Ranger spell, book currently forgotten. This spell basically adds up to 5d6 sneak attack to a ranger for one round. (1d6 per three levels, Swift action.) It is also divination, so Unseen Seers drool over it. Combine with extend and gravestrike for lots of fun. 4: Heroics: Yeah, it's pretty damn good. But I'm in the "only one extra feat at a time" crowd. 5: Blast of Sand: Golems, Undead, Plants, Slaad, Dragons and many other monsters have no resistance to pure magical damage. And DR/- doesn't stop magical damage. Not to mention that it ISN'T reduced when fired at an object. So animated objects are vulnerable to it too. I just wish I hadn't lost access due to an unfortunate death. 6: Parboil: Fire this puppy at a group of animals and watch any that fail their saves fall. Elemental Substitution can help with fire resistant monsters. 7: Lightning Leap: "GET ME OUT OF HERE" While doing damage to the enemies? Um, please? 8 to 10. I can't think of. Choose randomly from other lists for fun.
Tshern 01-14-08, 10:53 AM	1. Ice Assassin 2. Greater Celerity 3. Maw of Chaos 4. Greater Luminous Armor 5. Shivering Touched 6. Blinding Spittle 7. Bening Transposition 8. Greater Anticipate Teleport 9. Choose Destiny 10. Nerveskitter Order requires some tweaking though. A persisted Choose destiny should be right up there with Greater celerity as it is sheer madness.
kjenks 01-14-08, 11:50 AM	8. Greater Anticipate Teleport That one's already Open. LGCS, page 31.
copperwyrmling 01-14-08, 12:15 PM	1. Ice Assassin 2. Greater Celerity 3. Maw of Chaos 4. Greater Luminous Armor 5. Shivering Touched 6. Blinding Spittle 7. Bening Transposition 8. Greater Anticipate Teleport 9. Choose Destiny 10. Nerveskitter Order requires some tweaking though. A persisted Choose destiny should be right up there with Greater celerity as it is sheer madness. Maw of Chaos can't really be cast in LG (since it's L9, Abjuration, and the campaign ends at L15), so I would think access is very unlikely. Shivering Touch and Ice Assassin are Closed. Persistent Spell is also Closed so the applications of Persisted spells are not really relevant. (I'm wondering if you meant to post to the CO board thread instead ;) ) Greater Celerity, Greater Luminous Armor, Blinding Spittle, Benign Transposition, Choose Destiny and Nerveskitter all look good though.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-14-08, 01:08 PM	Oh wow...a sorcerer with Greater Arcane Fusion, Arcane Fusion and Regular Celerity could basically cast as many spells in a row as he has 5th and higher spell slots.... Using Greater Arcane Fusion for 2 celerities each used to cast a greater arcane fusion for 2 more celerities until you are out of 8th level or higher spell slots, and then regular arcane fusion for celerity and any 1st level spell you know until you are out of 5th level spell slots....and you are still left with a swift action and a move action after casting that insane barrage of spells all spawned from a single standard action....and niether the celerity spells nor the arcane fusion spells are closed...hope I never run into an evil sorcerer with that mix....he could probably take out the party on his first action with that many actions...though it takes careful planning and calculation to determine the optimal mix of spells...
solbergb 01-14-08, 08:36 PM	I thought the celerity and arcane fusion tree got banned? hm
Jay_Ibero_911 01-14-08, 09:08 PM	I thought the celerity and arcane fusion tree got banned? hm Well they ain't on the closed list right now...
copperwyrmling 01-14-08, 09:18 PM	I thought the celerity and arcane fusion tree got banned? hm Nope :( I fought a wizard with Celerity (we lost one PC and a special animal companion, and had to use a Limited Wish to get the PC back), although we didn't get access to the spell :(
dkay807 01-14-08, 11:33 PM	With some of the spells from CM and PHB2 beginning to appear in the game, there are a number of additions to the amazing NONC spells list: 1. Greater Mirror Image 2. Heart of Water 3. Heart of Earth 4. Alter Fortune 5. Ruby Ray of Reversal (this is in SpC but wasn't mentioned before) And I personally am dying for access to Invoke Magic from Lords of Madness (even though it's a 9... Garfoodle can cast it) - ah well. 4th ed can't come soon enough with some of the silliness in spells these days. ~Dave
copperwyrmling 01-14-08, 11:43 PM	My wild mage wants Moonbow, Rainbow Beam and Ruby Ray of Reversal 5. Ruby Ray of Reversal (this is in SpC but wasn't mentioned before) I did so mention it - my wild mage has been dreaming of access for ages ;) Still no luck though.
Hariman 01-15-08, 03:45 AM	OK. I've read through the thread and I'm sick of hearing "Celerity is Broken". Let me quote the spell with the relevant text that balances the spell and prevents "Celerity Novas". "However, after you take the standard action granted by this spell, you are dazed until the end of your next turn." Twinned Celerity? Yes. The twinned actions happen simultaneously. (This is only possible with either Metamagic School Focus or Practical Metamagic. Celerity + Twin Spell = 8th level spell, normally.) Repeat Celerity? Maybe. Repeat spell is a little more iffy, as you become dazed after the first action, and will be dazed when the spell "repeats". As for Arcane Fusion + Celerity? I don't think it would work as a Nova. Not unless you have a feat that makes you immune to being dazed. (I think it's "Favor of the Martyr") Also, Greater Arcane Fusion is a level 8 spell, so only high level option sorcerers will get this little beauty. What is deadly is Arcane Fusion combined with either swift action attack spells or with Quicken Spell. (or a belt of battle) That is three spells a round, which can mean a massive amount of damage. And keep in mind, Arcane Fusion limits mobility, so it's got it's flaws. Not all enemies or groups of enemies will fall to a first and a fourth level spell. In fact, most won't. Also, I'm betting that there are 5th level spells that are better than a 4th and a 1st level spell. Hariman PS: Lightning Leap, Extract Water Elemental, Persistent Blade, Near Horizon, Hunter's Eye, Blast of Sand, Parboil, Benign Transposition, Baleful Transposition, and others that I can't think of right now. EDIT2: See my post above for a few more choice spells. Oh, yeah. Blade of Pain and Fear, Flame Dagger and Scimitar of Sand are especially good for Rogue Types. A weapon that attacks an opponent's touch AC? HELL YEAH! EDIT: Just don't think of the nightmare that is Arcane Fusion + A belt of battle AND celerity. Two full round Arcane Fusions and a celerity before your next turn. Big badda boom. But I blame the belt of battle for that.
RanielK 01-15-08, 08:31 AM	EDIT: Just don't think of the nightmare that is Arcane Fusion + A belt of battle AND celerity. Two full round Arcane Fusions and a celerity before your next turn. Big badda boom. But I blame the belt of battle for that. Hehe, I just bought my belt of battle. Anyone know where I can get access to Celerity and Arcane Fusion? :D
Jay_Ibero_911 01-15-08, 11:08 AM	The Arcane Fusions are just a standard action casting time....however the daze aspect of celerity does put a wrench in things, thankfully...A baddie could still pull off: Swift Action belt of battle, use BoB action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th and 4th level spells of choice, then normal action for Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th level spell of choice and a Celerity, use celerity action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th and 4th level spells of choice...so baddie gets off 3 7th level spells and 2 4th level spells on his action....but then loses his next action....but if the party is still a threat after that then something is wrong...A 20th level sorcerer baddie with Arcane Disciple (Healing) could have one or more contingency heals setup to remove the dazed condition from the celerity as well...in which case he could nova even further....assuming he's been preparing for several days.
Lomiat 01-15-08, 11:17 AM	A) The AR I proposed for Azrien's interactive near-uberness experience originally gave the PCs access to Celerity. It was ixnayed at the Irclesay level. B) Lomiat's top 10 NONC spells he has are probably (based both on how much fun they are and how often he uses them): 1) Radiant Assault 2) Heart of Earth 3) Heart of Water 4) Shadow Mask (more because of a curse he has that makes him blinded for a round, otherwise, when he hits stuff with his own Radiant Assault) 5) Combat Readiness 6) Nerveskitter 7) Greater Dimension Door 8) Dragonsight 9) Benign Transposition 10) Spell Enhancer (this is actually more like number 1, but I operated under "save the best for last" mode) C) My trickster's favorite NONC spells vary considerably, due to his build: 1) Dragonskin 2) Blacklight 3) Blade of Pain and Fear 4) Flame Dagger 5) Heart of Water 6) Ray of Clumsiness actually... after those he runs low on spells he's actually employed in a mod, but he got access to Spell Flower, which is theoretically cool. A spell like Greater Mirror Image would be fabulous for him, too. D) My cleric's favorite NONC spells (somewhat more limited) are: 1) Ice Slick 2) Wall of Sand 3) Close Wounds 4) Mass Conviction 5) Conviction 6) Protection from Negative Energy 7) Hesitate He also gained his choice of Cloud of Knives or Alter Fortune and *should* have taken Alter Fortune, but I was worried about the XP hit and liked the idea of the direct damage. I have yet to use Cloud of Knives. What a waste! Soon, he'll get to start casting Flaywind Bursts and stuff, too. So, yes, I guess my access has been pretty sweet, but I tend to care less about the direct damage spells (unless, as with Radiant Assault, they have a secondary save-or-suck type effect built into them). The PHB damage spells usually suffice; I like the options presented from NONC spells that grant different mechanics than the PHB and Open spells. (Or - reviewing my list - spells, like the Heart spells, that are just *better* than the PHB equivalents.)
Hariman 01-15-08, 07:05 PM	Hehe, I just bought my belt of battle. Anyone know where I can get access to Celerity and Arcane Fusion? :D From the looks of Lomiat's post, Celerity isn't going to be an option. Though I'm not so sure about Arcane Fusion. Still, you can do two thirds of that combo by using a belt of battle or Rapid Metamagic/Quicken Spell/Belt of Battle or even Arcane Preparation/Quicken Spell/Belt of battle. I've seen a sorcerer named Copper the Dragon in action. He uses Arcane Preparation, Quicken Spell, a belt of battle and a rod of empower spell to great effect. The sheer level of "boom" he lays down at level 12 is impressive. The Arcane Fusions are just a standard action casting time....however the daze aspect of celerity does put a wrench in things, thankfully...A baddie could still pull off: Swift Action belt of battle, use BoB action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th and 4th level spells of choice, then normal action for Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th level spell of choice and a Celerity, use celerity action to cast Greater Arcane Fusion for your 7th and 4th level spells of choice...so baddie gets off 3 7th level spells and 2 4th level spells on his action....but then loses his next action....but if the party is still a threat after that then something is wrong...A 20th level sorcerer baddie with Arcane Disciple (Healing) could have one or more contingency heals setup to remove the dazed condition from the celerity as well...in which case he could nova even further....assuming he's been preparing for several days. Actually, with Arcane Fusion being a Standard Action to cast, you could get THREE greater arcane fusions off with that method. Three 7th level spells and 3 4th level spells. Combined with careful feat selection and Rapid Metamagic, you're looking at empowered 5th level damage spells, 7th level battlefield control spells and 4th level damage or battlefield control spells. Ultimate Magus is less powerful than that combination. At least with Ultimate Magus you have to bleed multiple spell slots to boost your spells. Oh, and the ultimate insult for an arcane fusion sorcerer nova wouldn't use celerity to cast another Arcane Fusion. He'd be 18th level and cast Time Stop, retrieve a SECOND belt of battle, and do it all again. I will not be surprised if I never see access to arcane fusion. BUT, getting to spells other than Arcane Fusion and Celerity: Extract Water Elemental has it's strengths. And I've got access to it with my sorcerer, albeit on a "choose one of many" list.
JamesMaissen 01-15-08, 11:09 PM	Still, you can do two thirds of that combo by using a belt of battle or Rapid Metamagic/Quicken Spell/Belt of Battle or even Arcane Preparation/Quicken Spell/Belt of battle. I've seen a sorcerer named Copper the Dragon in action. He uses Arcane Preparation, Quicken Spell, a belt of battle and a rod of empower spell to great effect. The sheer level of "boom" he lays down at level 12 is impressive. Umm.. how are you activating a Belt of Battle and quickening a spell in the same round? -James
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-08, 12:22 AM	Umm.. how are you activating a Belt of Battle and quickening a spell in the same round? -James I assume he's just using the belt OR quickened spells...to get multiple spells many rounds in a row...
Vamroc 01-16-08, 02:22 PM	No body has mentioned Vortex of Teeth (SpC) a 4th Level force spell that has a duration of one round per caster level deals 3D8 with dimensions of 20 ft high 40 ft radius . It's prone to SR and there is a five ft safe zone in the center. Which means that you can teleport in to a room center it on your self and just watch your enemies die or in the case of the undead die again.
Timlagor 01-16-08, 02:38 PM	Pretty sure he just forgot that his Swift action was required for BoB. Assay Spell Resistance is the one I really want for my Wizard ..though there are certainly some others in this thread that would be nice. Rune Delver's Fortune is pretty amazing for Sorcerors. I find that my Rings of greater Counterspells and Spellbattle put a lot of pressure on my Swift Actions.. and I haven't had the TUs to craft my Belts of Battle yet (not played him this year and I'd already burned my TUs last year when I got access -too much playing before the freeze) ...but why cast my own Finger of Death when the enemy Wizard will do it for me? :D You ever actually used Extract Water Elemental? it sure looks cool but I can't imagine it ever actually winning a fight -if you are killing something big you probably don't need the Elemental within the next minute.
solbergb 01-16-08, 02:41 PM	in hindsight it was the spell sequencer spells that were instantly banned. Celerity slipped under the radar.
copperwyrmling 01-16-08, 02:48 PM	Rings of greater Counterspells and Spellbattle And you say you don't get good access in Onnwal :P I've never seen either of those...
solbergb 01-16-08, 08:20 PM	Back on topic, it is quite situational. My monk/wiz1 briefly had blood wind. Look it up if you don't know why he thought it was the best spell ever. Then his AR got erattaed and he had to settle for benign transposition, which, with sun school martial arts, is pretty good too. He really doesn't need or want anything else that isn't already open. My telekenetic sorceress picked up at L13 (in time to take at L15) probably the only spell she really needed that was in theme and not already open - Cyclonic Blast. Her gust of wind spell needed an upgrade. Flaywind burst would have been an adequate substitute but she likes this spell better. Like all sorcerers ruin delver's fortune would have been droolworthy, but she probably needs aeriel alacrity more. She never has swift actions for mere self-defense anymore (as evidenced by never casting quicken false life yet). Her familiar thinks Lesser Dragonshape is the BEST SPELL EVER. Imagine a bat that after years of doing dangerous invisible target revealing and being in countless combats getting to become a SIZE LARGE DRAGON. Whohoo! The only real regret is she never got access to launch item...a perfect cantrip for her. My arcane archer's pretty happy with getting nerveskitter, although the usual target is whomever in the party is best at battlefield control, rather than himself. This is often his druid travelling companion. He also got launch item cantrip, which also made him very happy. He really doesn't want much else that is out there. My other arcanists wouldn't want to use their precious first round swift/immediate action on it most of the time. (chained though is very, very good) My pouncekitty would like align fang or especially mass align fang for pretty obvious reasons. Or any other spell that let natural weapons beat DR. She's also got a handful of flavor spells she'd like but the reality is that she's already got all the access her limited spell slots will handle. My favored soul totally wants burning blood - his patron is a salt-water/weather god and it would be expressed as adding really salty water to melee wounds he inflicts. He'd kind of like close wounds, and from a thematic standpoint updraft would be very cool and that L3 spell that does a thunderclap forcing fort and reflex saves. Or really any lightning type spell on a cleric list so he could consider the lightning bolt reserve feat. (all open electric spells are general purpose and only have the descriptor when type is chosen, which is explicitly excluded from powering the zap) My trapfinding tank already has all the spells on his list that are NONC (beguiler). My other chars will never escape level 1-2, so don't really need anything.
Hariman 01-17-08, 03:48 AM	Umm.. how are you activating a Belt of Battle and quickening a spell in the same round? -James It's very simple. He doesn't. Give me some credit and keep in mind that it's not all in the same round. Over two or three rounds the ability to belt of battle two high level spells in an early round, then cast quickened spells and regular spells in subsequent rounds, on top of using the second belt of battle action (the move action) to use a metamagic rod of empower, the sorcerer can pump out a massive amount of damage in a few rounds. Also: I NEVER SAID IT WAS IN THE SAME ROUND! *Ahem* Hmmm. Extract water elemental is best used on either casters to disrupt spellcasting, or on mooks that are in front of a big bad. It's also good as an anti rogue/scout/knight spell. It's still a decent way off, and I have other options I could choose.
cetiken 01-17-08, 01:02 PM	I can say I would not give access to summon dragon ally for canon flavor reasons; dragons are not supposed to be that common in Greyhawk. And this is one of the reasons that Greyhawk deserves to go quietly into the night.
_metz_ 01-18-08, 02:28 AM	And this is one of the reasons that Greyhawk deserves to go quietly into the night. <DELETED> (sorry was in a grumpy mood and doesn't need to see fanboys grumbling that there isn't enough funky stuff in the greyhawk setting, such people should go play an MMO)
Hariman 01-18-08, 04:36 AM	<DELETED> (sorry was in a grumpy mood and doesn't need to see fanboys grumbling that there isn't enough funky stuff in the greyhawk setting, such people should go play an MMO) We prefer LG over MMOs because the maturity level is usually higher, and LG doesn't require 15 bucks a month (I don't know the actual cost, I'm just guessing) and YOUR ENTIRE LIFE ENSLAVED TO YOUR GUILD. Perhaps I'm exaggerating, but that's why I don't play MMOs. I already obsess over console video games, manga and LG. Oh, and I think Greater Mage Hand is NONC. It's even better than the original because you can manipulate levers, handles, etc. Also, Slide and Greater Slide are another pair that are handy like Benign/Baleful Transposition.
bitznarf 01-18-08, 12:29 PM	I've never really found a good use for slide yet, can you give me an example where moving someone 5' is worth using my std action? Perhaps I just don't see the utility at the moment as my wizard has yet to play at tables where fighter types have iterative attacks. I just see so many other, better uses for my std action.
Vamroc 01-18-08, 02:28 PM	I've never really found a good use for slide yet, can you give me an example where moving someone 5' is worth using my std action? Perhaps I just don't see the utility at the moment as my wizard has yet to play at tables where fighter types have iterative attacks. I just see so many other, better uses for my std action. A prime example when your fighter is in full plate and needs to get to someone 10 squares away but he can only charge 8. However the opponent has a charge of 12 squares so you cast the spell the fighter can then charge base his opponent and attack with that all important preemptive strike.
copperwyrmling 01-18-08, 03:05 PM	A prime example when your fighter is in full plate and needs to get to someone 10 squares away but he can only charge 8. However the opponent has a charge of 12 squares so you cast the spell the fighter can then charge base his opponent and attack with that all important preemptive strike. Past L6, though, the fighter is usually better off waiting for his opponent to charge, so he can full attack them. Even before L6, allowing the fighter to get the first hit is rarely worth the arcane's standard action (the exception might be sliding the mount of a mounted lance-charger who's either 5ft too far away or 5ft too close to charge). I can see Quickened Slide or Quickened Greater Slide potentially being worth swift actions, but as standard actions, the spells don't impress me except in very specialized situations.
bitznarf 01-18-08, 03:14 PM	And in most situations that I can think of, benign transposition is simply just better for an arcanist with a flying familiar.
Vamroc 01-18-08, 03:40 PM	Past L6, though, the fighter is usually better off waiting for his opponent to charge, so he can full attack them. Even before L6, allowing the fighter to get the first hit is rarely worth the arcane's standard action (the exception might be sliding the mount of a mounted lance-charger who's either 5ft too far away or 5ft too close to charge). I can see Quickened Slide or Quickened Greater Slide potentially being worth swift actions, but as standard actions, the spells don't impress me except in very specialized situations. I agree Haste, Fly, or Critical Strike would be much more useful I was just presenting a situation where the spell could be applied.
Al 01-18-08, 04:00 PM	I've never really found a good use for slide yet, can you give me an example where moving someone 5' is worth using my std action? Perhaps I just don't see the utility at the moment as my wizard has yet to play at tables where fighter types have iterative attacks. I just see so many other, better uses for my std action. One I have seen recently: to push a bad guy into a forbiddance :D
Hariman 01-18-08, 07:37 PM	I've never really found a good use for slide yet, can you give me an example where moving someone 5' is worth using my std action? Perhaps I just don't see the utility at the moment as my wizard has yet to play at tables where fighter types have iterative attacks. I just see so many other, better uses for my std action. Slide can get a character out of a threatened area. That way they can stand up up if tripped and then step in and attack. Or maybe fall back, depending on the situation. I can also see sliding an enemy into a charge lane, sliding a friend OUT of a charge lane, getting the fighter that 5 feet closer so he can get both attacks from haste or iterative attacks. Greater Slide has more potential for moving an enemy into a trap or out of the way. Heck, Greater Slide + Earthbound Spell would be fun. Slap an earthbound spell on the ground and then slide an enemy into it. The greatest disadvantage is that slide and greater slide are "Will Negates". Which is undoubtedly why it never showed up on the list before I brought it up. Know Vulnerabilities has the same problem.
Lomiat 01-18-08, 10:37 PM	Slide and Greater Slide are, theoretically, fun for dropping bad guys off the map into chasms or "terrain bad stuffs." Theoretically - because I have yet to cast the spells myself. Something about having better uses for a standard action...
kjenks 01-18-08, 11:06 PM	My wizard keeps a Slide prepped all the time. It comes in handy quite often: - Extract a friend from an Air Elemental vortex - Slide a friend just a little closer to an enemy so my friend can make a full attack - In conjunction with See Invis, Slide my Greater Invisible friend out of the square where she just attacked from so her opponent has no idea where she is - As a readied action, when the giant moved up and tried to attack my buddy, I slid my buddy just out of reach, completely negating the attack - Extract an enemy rider from his saddle - Slide an enemy archer off of his rooftop perch so my buddies can melee him
Timlagor 01-19-08, 01:50 AM	And you say you don't get good access in Onnwal :P I've never seen either of those... Yeah.. but those weren't in Onnwal :D - they came from a thoroughly juicy (even after Pieter had chopped the drooly favour) Battle Interactive at the Ekbir-Dullstrand Boredercon. I'm pretty sure Burning Blood is Open
Hariman 01-20-08, 09:50 AM	Slide and Greater Slide are, theoretically, fun for dropping bad guys off the map into chasms or "terrain bad stuffs." Theoretically - because I have yet to cast the spells myself. Something about having better uses for a standard action... Slide is, in some ways, better for a sorcerer. It's a spell that is very situational, so it's better to have access to it all the time, as opposed to only when you prep it.
kjenks 01-20-08, 01:27 PM	Slide is, in some ways, better for a sorcerer. It's a spell that is very situational, so it's better to have access to it all the time, as opposed to only when you prep it. This is why wizard have the Scribe Scroll feat.
KarmaInferno 01-21-08, 12:13 AM	As a sorcerer, sliding someone back and forth through a blade barrier is fun. =) -karma
Hariman 01-21-08, 02:02 AM	This is why wizard have the Scribe Scroll feat. Among other things. But you still have to draw the scroll. As a sorcerer, sliding someone back and forth through a blade barrier is fun. =) -karma Wall of Fire is another good option. Or outside of a beneficial area. The possibilities are only limited by opportunity and creativity.
JamesMaissen 01-21-08, 02:17 AM	Wall of Fire is another good option. Or outside of a beneficial area. The possibilities are only limited by opportunity and creativity. Wall of Fire is opaque, so you couldn't target something on the other side (unless you were flying above it). -James
Hariman 01-21-08, 12:47 PM	Wall of Fire is opaque, so you couldn't target something on the other side (unless you were flying above it). -James I've never heard of a caster FLYing, have you? And you can still push the enemy back through the wall if they pass through.
JamesMaissen 01-21-08, 01:35 PM	I've never heard of a caster FLYing, have you? And you can still push the enemy back through the wall if they pass through. Sure.. it just has more dependence upon the surrounding area. You could be in a location indoors that would prohibit it, etc. It wasn't an attack, just an observation. Sometimes things like which wall spells are opaque and which are transparent get missed. Wall of Fire is an awesome spell. That it blocks line of sight is one of it's strengths and uses. -James
copperwyrmling 01-21-08, 02:28 PM	Wall of Fire is an awesome spell. That it blocks line of sight is one of it's strengths and uses. Indeed. I never would have taken it as one of my sorc's known spells (far too much competition from other good spells at L4), but having it in a runestaff has been extraordinarily useful. I bought the runestaff so I could retrain Fireball and still have a swarm-killing option, but I think I've used Empowered Wall of Fire more often than metamagicked Fireball since buying it. It was nice last game to be able to drop a Wall of Fire on two spellcasting undead, do 70ish damage to each of them with no save, and then have their two spellcasting undead buddies in the outer corridor waste a round trying to dispel the wall before giving up, walking through and taking another 70ish damage each. (Each of them cast like L14 sorcerers, so stopping them from spamming fingers of death at us was quite important.)
Hariman 01-21-08, 11:33 PM	Sure.. it just has more dependence upon the surrounding area. You could be in a location indoors that would prohibit it, etc. It wasn't an attack, just an observation. Sometimes things like which wall spells are opaque and which are transparent get missed. Wall of Fire is an awesome spell. That it blocks line of sight is one of it's strengths and uses. -James This might make it worth it as a spell known. If I decide to take Elemental Substitution (Cold, Acid or Electricity.) Of course, I have access to Wall of Sand, so I think either would fill the battlefield control role pretty well. Wall of Fire just does damage instead of impeding movement and potentially causing blindness.
twells 01-22-08, 11:19 AM	I have used Mass Snake's Swiftness to devastating effect. Allowing the party BDFs (and everyone else, for that matter) an extra attack when it is critical or when you have the bad guys in a bad position is priceless - and well worth the spent action. Being able to do it many times as a sorcerer is just a bonus. All it requires is a little timing on your part .... This will be one of the first spells quickened when I get to the appropriate level. Just my 2 cp ...
Jay_Ibero_911 01-22-08, 11:26 AM	I have used Mass Snake's Swiftness to devastating effect. Allowing the party BDFs (and everyone else, for that matter) an extra attack when it is critical or when you have the bad guys in a bad position is priceless - and well worth the spent action. Being able to do it many times as a sorcerer is just a bonus. All it requires is a little timing on your part .... This will be one of the first spells quickened when I get to the appropriate level. Just my 2 cp ... It is definately a good spell...just gotta remember that people who already got an extra attack from haste or similar effect get no benefit...
twells 01-22-08, 04:48 PM	It is definately a good spell...just gotta remember that people who already got an extra attack from haste or similar effect get no benefit... Oddly enought, that situation has never come up ... I have used it to allow the party "pass rushers" to get a collective extra attack on a charge verses the enemy "quarterback", so to speak.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-22-08, 04:55 PM	Oddly enought, that situation has never come up ... I have used it to allow the party "pass rushers" to get a collective extra attack on a charge verses the enemy "quarterback", so to speak. Yeah, my druid typically uses it to give his rhino mount an extra attack after a powerful charge...
TWG_Prometheus 01-22-08, 06:26 PM	Indeed. I never would have taken it as one of my sorc's known spells (far too much competition from other good spells at L4), but having it in a runestaff has been extraordinarily useful. I bought the runestaff so I could retrain Fireball and still have a swarm-killing option, but I think I've used Empowered Wall of Fire more often than metamagicked Fireball since buying it. It was nice last game to be able to drop a Wall of Fire on two spellcasting undead, do 70ish damage to each of them with no save, and then have their two spellcasting undead buddies in the outer corridor waste a round trying to dispel the wall before giving up, walking through and taking another 70ish damage each. (Each of them cast like L14 sorcerers, so stopping them from spamming fingers of death at us was quite important.) I fell in love with Wall of Fire when I found a Staff of Fire in the middle of a mod and my otherwise-Gish Sorcerer got to play with it until the mod concluded. That spell is so much fun! I haven't quite convinced myself to take Wall of Fire as a spell known, since Sorcerers have to manage their picks very carefully, but if I found a runestaff with it, I'd defiinitely consider swiping it up. To date, I haven't seen a runestaff yet, though.
Surgebuster 01-22-08, 06:31 PM	Oddly enought, that situation has never come up ... I have used it to allow the party "pass rushers" to get a collective extra attack on a charge verses the enemy "quarterback", so to speak. I was talking with Dave Christ recently and we both agreed that many of the players we enjoy playing with most also love sports. Suffice to say, I loved the analogy. ;) Joe
solbergb 01-23-08, 08:44 PM	option, but I think I've used Empowered Wall of Fire more often than metamagicked Fireball since buying it. This sort of thing is why I think the warmage spell list is a lot better than it's given credit for. People don't take wall of fire so they don't know how great it is when it's the right tool for the job. There are a number of special purpose spells in the warmage list like it. My primary shadow evocation on my illusionist was wall of fire, actually. I used it about as much as all other evocations combined. Some of that was what we were fighting, but most of it was the combination of some damage, some visual obscuring in a nonstandard area...heck I even used it as a light source once....
copperwyrmling 01-24-08, 02:07 AM	This sort of thing is why I think the warmage spell list is a lot better than it's given credit for. People don't take wall of fire so they don't know how great it is when it's the right tool for the job. There are a number of special purpose spells in the warmage list like it. My primary shadow evocation on my illusionist was wall of fire, actually. I used it about as much as all other evocations combined. Some of that was what we were fighting, but most of it was the combination of some damage, some visual obscuring in a nonstandard area...heck I even used it as a light source once.... I knew it was an okay spell from using it with my cleric (Fire domain), but I viewed it as a side benefit of getting the runestaff, something I would use as a special-purpose anti-undead spell - but I think I've fought undead in every single game since then, so my plan for using empowered wall of fire to splat undead has gotten a lot of continuing use ;) I have access to Ghost Trap now, which should make it even better against the big hard-to-hit incorporeals, at least once I Evards them :) They will regret trying to drain Azi's Str and Con! (Of course, the moment I take Ghost Trap as my sorc's second L7 spell, I will never fight another incorporeal again. It's practically guaranteed ;) But at this stage, I'm sufficiently tired of incorporeal combats that I'd give up the L7 spell-known slot in exchange for never fighting them again: when you fight dread wraiths in five of six consecutive modules, it starts to get really boring.)
Reylance 01-24-08, 01:19 PM	I have used Mass Snake's Swiftness to devastating effect. Allowing the party BDFs (and everyone else, for that matter) an extra attack when it is critical or when you have the bad guys in a bad position is priceless - and well worth the spent action. Being able to do it many times as a sorcerer is just a bonus. All it requires is a little timing on your part .... This will be one of the first spells quickened when I get to the appropriate level. Just my 2 cp ... I found Mass Snake's Swiftness to be a great spell in the APL 4-6 range, when playing with a druid. It's only a L2 spell (though there's really so many good L2 Druid spells), and can be good for a ton of extra attacks. I doubt it will stay as good at higher levels.
Reylance 01-24-08, 01:22 PM	Past L6, though, the fighter is usually better off waiting for his opponent to charge, so he can full attack them. Even before L6, allowing the fighter to get the first hit is rarely worth the arcane's standard action (the exception might be sliding the mount of a mounted lance-charger who's either 5ft too far away or 5ft too close to charge). I can see Quickened Slide or Quickened Greater Slide potentially being worth swift actions, but as standard actions, the spells don't impress me except in very specialized situations. My high level gish uses Quickened Greater Slide to move in on a foe, without an AOO, and take a full attack. Five attacks are much better than one.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-24-08, 01:56 PM	I found Mass Snake's Swiftness to be a great spell in the APL 4-6 range, when playing with a druid. It's only a L2 spell (though there's really so many good L2 Druid spells), and can be good for a ton of extra attacks. I doubt it will stay as good at higher levels. I disagree. My 13th level druid still gets regular use out of it (mostly by casting it to give my rhino an extra attack on top of it's powerful charge...if other party members get an extra attack too, it's just gravy).
TetsujinOni 01-29-08, 01:21 PM	I disagree. My 13th level druid still gets regular use out of it (mostly by casting it to give my rhino an extra attack on top of it's powerful charge...if other party members get an extra attack too, it's just gravy). seems like a cloud of summons would get a lot out of this as well. Druid with a QMSS (off a lesser rod, say) dropping a pack or two of summons, then MSSing the whole group... Erase a bad guy, next round pick your new enemy and the whole group lands on THEM, another MSS, another corpse? I need to fool with the combat possibilities of a druid 13 more, I didn't manage to kill anyone when I had a broken druid 15 NPC to fight the party with at the con last weekend... and if I had more experience, I would have, and was supposed to work harder at it per the tactics. My lack of experience with Druid summoners working against me...
Maesto 02-03-08, 01:50 AM	Heh, TetsujinOni - I was quite glad that you didn't know how to run a druid to maximise the infliction of pain upon a party! You only had three out of six party members down by the end, and I was on 3/103 hitpoints!
MwaO 02-03-08, 10:18 AM	Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of the Dragon. I'm not the person who spotted this one, but someone actually has access to this hideously broken spell. 3rd level Sorc/Wiz spell. And it stacks with GMW. Lasts an hour for level and increases the damage of a bludgeoning weapon by one size category per 4 levels. A monk can easily get a punch of 8d6(or possibly more) damage. My monk caster, assuming she got access, would expect to do around 60 hp of damage per swing at 14th without using Power Attack.
copperwyrmling 02-03-08, 08:33 PM	Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of the Dragon. I'm not the person who spotted this one, but someone actually has access to this hideously broken spell. 3rd level Sorc/Wiz spell. And it stacks with GMW. Lasts an hour for level and increases the damage of a bludgeoning weapon by one size category per 4 levels. A monk can easily get a punch of 8d6(or possibly more) damage. My monk caster, assuming she got access, would expect to do around 60 hp of damage per swing at 14th without using Power Attack. If we're including spells that we'd never expect to see in-game, ones that probably have only avoided the Closed list because they're in obscure books (Greater Mighty Wallop is in this category imo, as it's considerably stronger than Complete Divine Spikes, which was Restricted), throw in Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic.
JamesMaissen 02-03-08, 10:53 PM	If we're including spells that we'd never expect to see in-game, ones that probably have only avoided the Closed list because they're in obscure books (Greater Mighty Wallop is in this category imo, as it's considerably stronger than Complete Divine Spikes, which was Restricted), throw in Arcane Spellsurge, from Dragon Magic. Which is a good testimony against the non-published 'limited list' and default being limited. Too many things that should not ever be anything other than closed (restricted, etc) get into the game. AR production and module editing is hectic enough without trying to toss in checking over material for balance at the same time. Who knows, perhaps the new campaign will learn from this one.. but I doubt it. -James
Lomiat 02-04-08, 12:46 AM	Best NONC spell ever? Dridershape. No, seriously, because it's a 5th-level swift spell that allows you to... Um... (Trying to keep a straight face, here.) ...Get all those cool drider abilities? Except the ones that are worth having? And, um... I think my familiar could take a drider 1-on-1 40% of the time... unbuffed.