Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Faylar 12-24-07, 12:10 PM	One of my friend is currently playing a throwing character. The question the party is asking now is whether it is feasible. Here's the build at the moment Race: Halfling Str: 10 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10 1: 1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot 2: 1 Fighter: Precise Shot 3: 1 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finnese from here he is planning to take another rogue, go for Two Weapon Fighting, qualify for Master Thrower, then Whisperknife as fast as possible. He took swashbuckler for the option of meleeing with Weapon Finnese. But the party can't help but be a little (okay maybe alot) disturbed at his current 1d3+1 damage. I know he will become powerful by level 8, but is the build worth it? We were thinking perhaps he'll be better as an Unseen Seer.:confused: Maybe someone with experience could tell me how effective can an unseen seer be to a party?
Jay_Ibero_911 12-24-07, 06:33 PM	One of my friend is currently playing a throwing character. The question the party is asking now is whether it is feasible. Here's the build at the moment Race: Halfling Str: 10 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10 1: 1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot 2: 1 Fighter: Precise Shot 3: 1 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finnese from here he is planning to take another rogue, go for Two Weapon Fighting, qualify for Master Thrower, then Whisperknife as fast as possible. He took swashbuckler for the option of meleeing with Weapon Finnese. But the party can't help but be a little (okay maybe alot) disturbed at his current 1d3+1 damage. I know he will become powerful by level 8, but is the build worth it? We were thinking perhaps he'll be better as an Unseen Seer.:confused: Maybe someone with experience could tell me how effective can an unseen seer be to a party? Unseen Seer is just awesome. Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer X/Arcane Trickster X. Lose just one caster level, end up with full rogue skillness and a few other tricks as well. Throwing builds have many many problems, the least of which is carrying arround enough weapons to throw, and having enough of the right types to deal with DR. You really need to go brute force with throwing, using power throw to get in some extra damage that would otherwise be impossible to reach.
Sieylianna 12-24-07, 10:16 PM	Swashbuckler (3?) lets you add your INT to your damage. I've seen people use it with thrown weapons, although I don't think it should work. Ed
Arvagor 12-24-07, 10:56 PM	Yes, Insightful Strike comes at level 3: Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler’s insightful strike. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.Clearly based on the description, the intent (IMHO) is that it applies only to melee attacks, as the referenced feat (Weapon Finesse) only applies to melee attacks. Unfortunately, because of how the weapons tables are laid out, you've got a light melee weapon (dagger) that happens to have a range increment, so I can see from where the "confusion" arises.
kkbkbl 12-25-07, 07:33 AM	I'm a member of this party here, and said Rogue's is more like this Race: Halfling Str: 10 Dex: 18 Con: 12 Int: 14 Wis: 10 Cha: 10 1st Rogue (Point Blank) 2nd Fighter (Precise Shot) 3rd Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse from Swashbuckler, WF Dagger) 4, Fighter (Two Weapon Fighting) 5, Rogue 6, Rogue(Doesn't know what feat to take yet) 7, Master Thrower(takes Palm Throw, free Quick Draw Feat) 8, Whisper Knife(free rapid shot) His character's concept is to use Palm Throw with full attack to throw 8daggers per round(at lvl 7, 2daggers per attack) and apply all his sneak attack dice on every hit(at lvl 7,2d6) for a grand total of 16d6s! Not bad eh!
Faylar 12-25-07, 07:35 AM	Update on the build: 1: 1 Rogue: Point Blank Shot 2: 1 Fighter: Precise Shot 3: 1 Swashbuckler: Weapon Finnese, Weapon Focus(dagger) 4: 2 Fighter: Two Weapon Fighting 5: 2 Rogue 6: 3 Rogue: ?? 7: 1 Master Thrower 8: X Whisperknife At level 9, he would probably be doing (1d3+1) * 8 + (3d6) * 8 = around 65-176 damage. Of course, the problem is with getting the sneak attacks, since it covers majority of the damage, and having a full round to toss them without going too far from the range increment and be within 30ft for SA. I don't know what we will meet at level 9 though.
Sieylianna 12-25-07, 11:06 AM	His character's concept is to use Palm Throw with full attack to throw 8daggers per round(at lvl 7, 2daggers per attack) and apply all his sneak attack dice on every hit(at lvl 7,2d6) for a grand total of 16d6s! Except it doesn't work. Palm throw allows you to throw two daggers at once. You only get precision damage (like sneak attack) once per attack. Ed
Faylar 12-25-07, 10:24 PM	Wait... so he only gets 4 SAs? So Palm Toss isn't the same as flurry I guess?
Arvagor 12-26-07, 01:23 AM	Actually you would only get one sneak attack -- it would come on the the very first throw you make. The only way you'd get SA on every attack roll was if you had something like greater invisibility up, such that every attack roll you made, the opponent would be denied his Dex bonus to AC. But if you're simply hiding within 30 feet, then make a full attack, only that very first attack gets the SA dice.
Reylance 12-26-07, 01:33 AM	If you're working as a party, then something that really helps a thrower's damage is having a bard at the table. Probably the best thrower build uses Brutal Throw and Power Throw, four levels of fighter, Weapon Specialization, and Ranged Weapon Mastery. At 9th level, with a 22 Str and those two feats, each missile deals +10 damage. However, that doesn't compare well with the average archer's power.
kkbkbl 12-26-07, 04:22 AM	Actually you would only get one sneak attack -- it would come on the the very first throw you make. The only way you'd get SA on every attack roll was if you had something like greater invisibility up, such that every attack roll you made, the opponent would be denied his Dex bonus to AC. But if you're simply hiding within 30 feet, then make a full attack, only that very first attack gets the SA dice. Hmm how sure about this are you? He seems to dispute this ruling.
Jay_Ibero_911 12-26-07, 10:10 AM	Hmm how sure about this are you? He seems to dispute this ruling. HIDE (DEX; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY) Check: Your Hide check is opposed by the Spot check of anyone who might see you. You can move up to one-half your normal speed and hide at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than one-half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s practically impossible (–20 penalty) to hide while attacking, running or charging. A creature larger or smaller than Medium takes a size bonus or penalty on Hide checks depending on its size category: Fine +16, Diminutive +12, Tiny +8, Small +4, Large –4, Huge –8, Gargantuan –12, Colossal –16. You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check. Total cover or total concealment usually (but not always; see Special, below) obviates the need for a Hide check, since nothing can see you anyway. If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast. Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. Creating a Diversion to Hide: You can use Bluff to help you hide. A successful Bluff check can give you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. Action: Usually none. Normally, you make a Hide check as part of movement, so it doesn’t take a separate action. However, hiding immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action. Special: If you are invisible, you gain a +40 bonus on Hide checks if you are immobile, or a +20 bonus on Hide checks if you’re moving. If you have the Stealthy feat, you get a +2 bonus on Hide checks. A 13th-level ranger can attempt a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t grant cover or concealment. A 17th-level ranger can do this even while being observed. Assuming you start out hidden, you can either take a standard action attack that would get sneak attack on it, then take a move action to hide again at a -20 penalty, or you can take a full attack, but after the first attack the enemy is aware of you so you get no further sneak attack. And in any case, unless you have the hide in plain sight ability, it's virtually impossible to hide in combat once the enemy is aware of you.
jhorred 12-28-07, 02:09 PM	If you're working as a party, then something that really helps a thrower's damage is having a bard at the table. Probably the best thrower build uses Brutal Throw and Power Throw, four levels of fighter, Weapon Specialization, and Ranged Weapon Mastery. At 9th level, with a 22 Str and those two feats, each missile deals +10 damage. However, that doesn't compare well with the average archer's power. I agree. With the non sneakable monsters, there quite possibly be some DR that would make the SA thrower nearly, if not totally, useless. My straight fighter with above feats has produced nearly 100 points of damage in one round (with below average rolls) and easily does over 50-60. There are archers that he has held his own with when comparing damage per round. On top of that RWM increases the range increment of the weapon.
MwaO 12-28-07, 02:30 PM	Actually you would only get one sneak attack -- it would come on the the very first throw you make. The only way you'd get SA on every attack roll was if you had something like greater invisibility up, such that every attack roll you made, the opponent would be denied his Dex bonus to AC. But if you're simply hiding within 30 feet, then make a full attack, only that very first attack gets the SA dice. Which is one of the reasons that Unseen Seer is so amazing - 1 level of Wizard + 4 levels of Unseen Seer = Blink...
Hariman 12-31-07, 01:02 AM	Which is one of the reasons that Unseen Seer is so amazing - 1 level of Wizard + 4 levels of Unseen Seer = Blink... 6 levels of Unseen Seer gets Greater Invisibility. 8 levels gets you Greater Blink. Not to mention that there's a chance of getting access to spells like Baleful Transposition, Scimitar of Sand, Blade of Pain and Fear, and other such spells. Not to mention the spells that you gain access to anyway.
Faylar 12-31-07, 02:18 AM	but but...he will miss lots of BAB to hit! that's what he said.
polalion 12-31-07, 02:41 AM	and when he hits with around like +14 at lvl 7 1d3+2 yay!
Faylar 12-31-07, 05:51 AM	how about he use Deadeye Shot with Master thrower's Doubletoss? That would put make him as good as a TWF character flanking and SAing.
The_Inside_Man 01-03-08, 06:58 PM	Umm.. I don't think this is an option for you but right now I'm playing a thrower. Hes a Monk 15/Master Thrower5 He can flurry and palm shot and rapid shot and to the point of like 13 attacks per round. Throws shuriken. This may help you. If you can, throw shuriken, they are very cheap. Then make them Wounding. In about 3 rounds, almost anything's CON = "0" Also, Even if you dont have enough to destroy CON, the lowering Con has penaltes of its own...
MwaO 01-03-08, 07:55 PM	but but...he will miss lots of BAB to hit! that's what he said. Unseen Seer is a +3/4 BAB class...and you're saying he's feeling like he's contributing now with full BAB?
Faylar 01-04-08, 12:11 PM	Unseen Seer is a +3/4 BAB class...and you're saying he's feeling like he's contributing now with full BAB? Yes. Not only that, he refuses to take Unseen Seer because it has no ranks in DD. We told him to just CC it but he wouldn't =(
jstorrie 01-05-08, 12:30 AM	Whisperknife is doable for a thrower, but not the way that he is set up. You'd want something more like– Halfling Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 8 Cha 8 Rogue 1 / Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 / Whisperknife X (with Rage and Extra Rage) or Rogue 1 / Fighter 4 / Ranger 2 / Whisperknife X (for Favoured Enemy) or even Rogue 1 / Fighter 4 / Barbarian 1 / Ranger 2 / Whisperknife X Brutal Throw is hard to get online early with the feat requirements of Whisperknife, so you really need all possible extra damage sources–Str, Weapon Spec, RWM, Rage, Favoured Enemy, etc.
Hariman 01-06-08, 01:32 AM	Yes. Not only that, he refuses to take Unseen Seer because it has no ranks in DD. We told him to just CC it but he wouldn't =( Retraining is more efficient in terms of skill points. But it costs in gold and TUs.
jstorrie 01-06-08, 06:55 AM	You can do some sick things with Weak Spot (Master Thrower) and Power Throw, too; this comes online best around level 12, if you go with a Human Monk 1 / Ranger 2 / Fighter 4 / Master Thrower 5 / Exotic Weapon Master 2 / Swashbuckler 1–TWF/Flurry/Rapid Shot/Doubletoss/Two-With-One-Blow/Power Throw/Weak Spot is a pretty disgusting combination.
Maesto 01-07-08, 10:35 PM	However Jstorrie, that build clicks once everything comes online at level 12 or 13. Until then, you REALLY suck. Much better as a cohort build, without needing the intervening levels ;-)
bitznarf 01-07-08, 11:52 PM	Beware of DMs who feel that powerthrowing on an attack that you don't get your strength bonus to damage with lies outside of the spirit of the rules. Yet another reason to have a cohort with this, not a full PC.
magebeast 01-08-08, 01:40 AM	Nevermind, I figured out what you meant!
Reylance 01-09-08, 02:13 PM	Umm.. I don't think this is an option for you but right now I'm playing a thrower. Hes a Monk 15/Master Thrower5 He can flurry and palm shot and rapid shot and to the point of like 13 attacks per round. Throws shuriken. This may help you. If you can, throw shuriken, they are very cheap. Then make them Wounding. In about 3 rounds, almost anything's CON = "0" Also, Even if you dont have enough to destroy CON, the lowering Con has penaltes of its own... Nice idea, but expensive as heck. A bundle of 50 +1 wounding shuriken costs 18,310 gp, and you'd need to use half of them to bring down a large creature. Now, if you could use an artificer to give that enhancement to your shuriken? Pure genius.
Reylance 01-09-08, 02:27 PM	A master thrower is a reasonable choice for a bard's cohort. Built off rogue, the character can make use of the bard's greater invisibility and bard song to do lots of damage with palm tossed daggers or shuriken, and can also be the party's trapfinder, spotter, and face. There are so many feats you would want, though.
Maesto 01-09-08, 07:31 PM	The following feats are NEEDED to make it work: Point Blank Shot Precise Shot Power Attack Brutal Throw Power Throw The following make it work BETTER: Rapid Shot Improved Point Blank Shot Two Weapon Fighting Weapon Focus Weapon Specialisation Ranged Weapon Mastery (+20 range! =D) Improved Precise Shot (Into grapples!) A monk level adds flurry as well, and gives you proficiency with shuriken. Five levels of master thrower required for the weak spot ability. Alternatively, you can just go rogue and hope that somebody gives you invisibility and that you can hit the ACs.
kkbkbl 01-15-08, 11:57 PM	How would a spell like Blessing of the Righteous(PHB2, 1d6 extra damage per attack to all allies within 40ft, weapons considered good aligned) affect palm throw? Is a volley attack like palm throw considered a single attack, or 2 attacks with a single attack roll? He could stack up some nice d6s with Blessing of the Righteous and palm throwed rapidshotted daggers, though.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-16-08, 12:26 AM	How would a spell like Blessing of the Righteous(PHB2, 1d6 extra damage per attack to all allies within 40ft, weapons considered good aligned) affect palm throw? Is a volley attack like palm throw considered a single attack, or 2 attacks with a single attack roll? He could stack up some nice d6s with Blessing of the Righteous and palm throwed rapidshotted daggers, though. Well as long as it's not precision damage it would apply to each thing...no different than favored enemy damage or weapon specialization...except it happens to be dice...
UMiskatonic 01-20-08, 11:43 AM	Hey, keep in mind that all thrower builds are going to be at least okay at archery. My knife-throwing rogue has a bow for distant opponents, and because he's frankly better off with it until about 6th level.