to build or not to build [Archive] - Wizards Community

to build or not to build [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_m_
01-10-07, 11:18 PM ok, so im all for powerbuilding characters, ultimate builds, cheese and all that. i dont post them much, but i spend all my time at... 'work'... building new cheese.

but i never actually create them.

am i the only one who, whilst capable of building one, would never actually play a full power cheese character, in favour of a good (near the curve, not to far above or below), well built but rp / flavour / uniqueness based character?

i would much rather be a half orc sorcer dragon disciple exemplar evangelist than a stupid cavalier vanila build, or an uuber druid, or a shadowcraft mage (yeah, i actually have 1... its kinda dull).

am i alone?
kenobi65
01-10-07, 11:32 PM No, I don't think you are.

I probably know the rules well enough that I could pursue a "pure cheese" build if I wanted to, but I seem to, instead, create characters who are reasonably (but not insanely) effective in combat, but are a little more well-rounded.

Tweaking out a build isn't something I really get into, I guess.
Japangirl
01-10-07, 11:53 PM I agree with you both. I have posted my builds before, a powergamer I am but not ultimately so. I wouldn't build an Invisible Blade or a "Supreme Fatespinner" if I wanted pure power :D.
clannagh
01-11-07, 12:02 AM i power build .. look at my bright sands dwarf with sand skimmer and feather cloak who throws boomerangs into combat without EWP :)

or my level 4/5 chain fighter who has never bothered with improved trip becasue it seems to fancy for him

or my wisdom 8 ranger who with far shot and a distance bow shoots at max range = ridiculous but has a negative to spot :)

or my str 10 gnome paladin with ride by attack who does 2D6 damage with a lance hit :)
jhorred
01-11-07, 12:26 AM I'm with you. I build things because they are cool, or because they seem to fit.

I have a Fighter 13 that I refuse to multiclass.

I have a Wizard 8 (Evoker)that won't multiclass unless Master Specialist becomes available. (Fatespinner is easily doable, but rather cliche IMHO.)

I do have 2 other characters that will be multiclassed, one already is, but they will have limited classes, at 3 and 2 each. Each has character concept in mind which currently precludes taking other classes IMHO. Though i definately could get my 4th to dervish quicker if I didn't stick to just scout on the way.
Japangirl
01-11-07, 12:44 AM My Invisible Blade wasn't going to be a sorceror. But there is a module that leaves you no choice . . . so that got fit into it. Oh well, it works out nicely anyways. Golem Strike FTW.
cycloptic_squirrel
01-11-07, 08:54 AM I find myself contemplating improvements on some build or another. As a result, on paper my characters are pretty solid. When it comes time to play though, the characters that seem to make it into a gaming session usually have a combo/skill/personality that I find amusing. They usually develop amusingly pretty quickly as well.

*begin segment that should probably be in unique characters thread*
A good example would be my gish that started in barbarian. He used to be able to read, until he came across this weird book that screwed up his vision. He also considered himself a scholar. Lately he's been commenting how nice it is that other characters' gods grant them special powers. How nice it is that their gods find them worthy enough to bestow such blessings upon them. How nice it would be if Lendor (god of patience, among other things) would only grant him an iota of power. Just a small token. He's been very patient, but perhaps not patient enough. All will come in its own time. Eventually Lendor will recognize and reward his devotion. After all, he has been patient, so VERY PATIENT! :banghead:
This is the same guy who will regularly utilize craft:bagel, memorize prestidigitation twice a day, and on several occasions striped down to his skivvies after proclaiming, "Ladies, avert ye eyes!"
He's the father of a half-fey child, continues to be the most valued agent in the eyes/ears network of an ambitious young ambassador, and holds a faerie military rank of uniformly waxy wombat on fire.
On paper though, there's not too much about him that I would consider sub-optimal.
*end segment*

I guess whenever I play I randomly oscillate between wanting to roleplay or rollplay, so I gravitate toward builds that let me do either. It also allows me to worry less about killing party survivability in combat when I want to do something 'cool' (and 'cool' usually translates into just 'questionable' to almost everyone else).

I think I'd be dissatisfied with something sub-par like a halfling favored soul/bard/master thrower/divine crusader who focused in skiprocks, even if I could usually inspire myself by singing pinball wizard. (Although... switch to fighter/thrower with power throw and rapid shot, hope for a bardic buddy... might not actually be half bad. ~16 rocks/round at level 11, and each rock could potentially ricochet)

I also think I'd be unsated by Bob the generic Occult Slayer cheese of the week with cleric cohort. I'd feel dirty; even if I did try and play it off as Bob having multiple invisible friends but completely unable to perceive this 'spirit' that heals him and aids him in his divine quest to slay all magic users. I'd probably make him terrified of gnomes for good measure.

I think it boils down to the fact that I like my characters flavorful, but the power gamer in me is always has to look for that edge.
Mommy was an Orc
01-11-07, 09:11 AM Generally speaking, I don't play the supertweaked builds. If I do, I play what I call "Tweaked Minus One" - that's where the build is the supertweaked one, but I toss in levels of some extremely party useful class such as Rogue instead of the ideal one for the build. I'll spend skills and up to one or two feats strategically to emphasize that class. I also rarely pick stats that are that tweaked out - I've yet to spend more than 10 build points on a stat.

As an example, I'm playing a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4+4 levels of something else build. I'm not 100% certain what those other levels are - I had intended to cast Divine Insight to make up for a lack of ranks in Disable Device, but....Could be some combo of Ranger, Rogue, Nightsong Enforcer/Infiltrator, and/or Seeker of the Misty Isle. Rogue would probably be best, but that would mean an XP penalty. Yes, I know that's a 'good' thing, but I dislike it heavily. I also took Tactile Trapsmith - right now, I've got a Search check of +18 at 6th level.

Now obviously, it probably would be more ideal to have something other than those 3 Rogue levels. But from a party perspective, my archer really contributes in Spot/Listen/Search checks and he's just good enough at the Disable Device/Track rolls to be functional. Yet at the same time, he's about as good as a tweaked archer build one level below him except he has better equipment.

What's interesting, is that the couple of times I've gone into melee, the sneak attack damage has proven extremely useful in helping compensate for doing the 'wrong' thing. Kind of weird.

Anyway, my current builds in play:
Human Bard 9/Marshal(Motivate Charisma) 1/Sublime Chord 5
Wood Elf Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 6/Pious Templar 4
Human Monk 2/Sorc 3/Paladin 2/Enlightened Fist 8
Human Wizard 10/Earth Dreamer 5 - Augment Summoning, Magic of the Land and Domain(Healing) - very life/healing/buff oriented. This compensates for only having 16 Int to start - the majority of his spells won't have a DC attached.
frupton
01-15-07, 08:53 AM To build, or not to build: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows in a standard core build,
Or to twink out against a sea of troubles,
And by exploiting, break them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by “twink out” to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis an opt’mization
Devoutly to be wish'd. To build, to twink;
To twink: perchance to cheese: ay, there's the rub;
For with that build of cheese what rules may come
When we have shuffl'd through each campaign source
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes the Player’s Handbook come to life;
For who would bear a whip with improv'd trip,
Improv'd shield bash, or two weapon defense,
The tower shield proficiency, quick draw,
The inaptness of toughness, and the feats
That lacking merit, the unworthy takes,
When he himself might a shocktrooper make
With a keen falchion? Who would far shot bear,
To grunt and sweat under an archer’s life,
But that the dread of something worse than death,
The next Dispel Confusion from whose bourn
No cheddar’d build returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather choose those feats we have
Than those imbalanc'd ones we know now of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the Radiant Servant of Pelor
behooves him not to heighten holy words.
And Metamagics of great pith and moment
With this regard their Clerics turn awry,
And gain the name “Restricted.”
kegdrainer
01-15-07, 12:04 PM Great post there frumpton.

The hard part is making a build in LG where it is well rounded but does not steal the thunder from the rest of the players. After a while, I find that builds that can dish out massive amounts of damage are boring. The Deepwood Sniper from 3.0 comes to mind. Being able crit with an arrow and doing 40-140 pts of damage, is great.

All of you reading that last sentence and thinking to yourselves, mine did more damage than that, it might have been fun for you but what about the others that were adventuring, did they enjoy playing the game or were they bored to death?

I am sure many players here had games where you wondered why you even bothered playing the adventure. One of the players did everything and you felt more like a NPC than a player. While it is nice to be in the spotlight, if the game is no longer enjoyable for the others, people leave and tell other players their unpleasent experences with LG.

(I find now that when I make a build, its just to try out an area of D&D that I had not played in other games, like trip attacks, mounted combat, etc. just to see how the rules work.)

Just something to think about.
_m_
01-15-07, 04:55 PM To build, or not to build: that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows in a standard core build,
Or to twink out against a sea of troubles,
And by exploiting, break them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by “twink out” to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis an opt’mization
Devoutly to be wish'd. To build, to twink;
To twink: perchance to cheese: ay, there's the rub;
For with that build of cheese what rules may come
When we have shuffl'd through each campaign source
Must give us pause: there's the respect
That makes the Player’s Handbook come to life;
For who would bear a whip with improv'd trip,
Improv'd shield bash, or two weapon defense,
The tower shield proficiency, quick draw,
The inaptness of toughness, and the feats
That lacking merit, the unworthy takes,
When he himself might a shocktrooper make
With a keen falchion? Who would far shot bear,
To grunt and sweat under an archer’s life,
But that the dread of something worse than death,
The next Dispel Confusion from whose bourn
No cheddar’d build returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather choose those feats we have
Than those imbalanc'd ones we know now of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the Radiant Servant of Pelor
behooves him not to heighten holy words.
And Metamagics of great pith and moment
With this regard their Clerics turn awry,
And gain the name “Restricted.”

thats really very good frumpton. :clap:
frupton
01-16-07, 01:41 AM Thanks. I see you've honored me by adding an "m" to my name. :D

Further bard services available upon request, in exchange for luxury upkeep when visiting your region.

-- Humble Bard of Nyrond.
_m_
01-16-07, 01:53 AM Thanks. I see you've honored me by adding an "m" to my name. :D

Further bard services available upon request, in exchange for luxury upkeep when visiting your region.

-- Humble Bard of Nyrond.

luxury upkeep eh... in perenland. you'd probably be better of staying in my summer house... there isnt much luxury in perenland.

and fru(m)pton... everyone should be so lucky :D

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_m_ 01-10-07, 11:18 PM	ok, so im all for powerbuilding characters, ultimate builds, cheese and all that. i dont post them much, but i spend all my time at... 'work'... building new cheese. but i never actually create them. am i the only one who, whilst capable of building one, would never actually play a full power cheese character, in favour of a good (near the curve, not to far above or below), well built but rp / flavour / uniqueness based character? i would much rather be a half orc sorcer dragon disciple exemplar evangelist than a stupid cavalier vanila build, or an uuber druid, or a shadowcraft mage (yeah, i actually have 1... its kinda dull). am i alone?
kenobi65 01-10-07, 11:32 PM	No, I don't think you are. I probably know the rules well enough that I could pursue a "pure cheese" build if I wanted to, but I seem to, instead, create characters who are reasonably (but not insanely) effective in combat, but are a little more well-rounded. Tweaking out a build isn't something I really get into, I guess.
Japangirl 01-10-07, 11:53 PM	I agree with you both. I have posted my builds before, a powergamer I am but not ultimately so. I wouldn't build an Invisible Blade or a "Supreme Fatespinner" if I wanted pure power :D.
clannagh 01-11-07, 12:02 AM	i power build .. look at my bright sands dwarf with sand skimmer and feather cloak who throws boomerangs into combat without EWP :) or my level 4/5 chain fighter who has never bothered with improved trip becasue it seems to fancy for him or my wisdom 8 ranger who with far shot and a distance bow shoots at max range = ridiculous but has a negative to spot :) or my str 10 gnome paladin with ride by attack who does 2D6 damage with a lance hit :)
jhorred 01-11-07, 12:26 AM	I'm with you. I build things because they are cool, or because they seem to fit. I have a Fighter 13 that I refuse to multiclass. I have a Wizard 8 (Evoker)that won't multiclass unless Master Specialist becomes available. (Fatespinner is easily doable, but rather cliche IMHO.) I do have 2 other characters that will be multiclassed, one already is, but they will have limited classes, at 3 and 2 each. Each has character concept in mind which currently precludes taking other classes IMHO. Though i definately could get my 4th to dervish quicker if I didn't stick to just scout on the way.
Japangirl 01-11-07, 12:44 AM	My Invisible Blade wasn't going to be a sorceror. But there is a module that leaves you no choice . . . so that got fit into it. Oh well, it works out nicely anyways. Golem Strike FTW.
cycloptic_squirrel 01-11-07, 08:54 AM	I find myself contemplating improvements on some build or another. As a result, on paper my characters are pretty solid. When it comes time to play though, the characters that seem to make it into a gaming session usually have a combo/skill/personality that I find amusing. They usually develop amusingly pretty quickly as well. begin segment that should probably be in unique characters thread A good example would be my gish that started in barbarian. He used to be able to read, until he came across this weird book that screwed up his vision. He also considered himself a scholar. Lately he's been commenting how nice it is that other characters' gods grant them special powers. How nice it is that their gods find them worthy enough to bestow such blessings upon them. How nice it would be if Lendor (god of patience, among other things) would only grant him an iota of power. Just a small token. He's been very patient, but perhaps not patient enough. All will come in its own time. Eventually Lendor will recognize and reward his devotion. After all, he has been patient, so VERY PATIENT! :banghead: This is the same guy who will regularly utilize craft:bagel, memorize prestidigitation twice a day, and on several occasions striped down to his skivvies after proclaiming, "Ladies, avert ye eyes!" He's the father of a half-fey child, continues to be the most valued agent in the eyes/ears network of an ambitious young ambassador, and holds a faerie military rank of uniformly waxy wombat on fire. On paper though, there's not too much about him that I would consider sub-optimal. end segment I guess whenever I play I randomly oscillate between wanting to roleplay or rollplay, so I gravitate toward builds that let me do either. It also allows me to worry less about killing party survivability in combat when I want to do something 'cool' (and 'cool' usually translates into just 'questionable' to almost everyone else). I think I'd be dissatisfied with something sub-par like a halfling favored soul/bard/master thrower/divine crusader who focused in skiprocks, even if I could usually inspire myself by singing pinball wizard. (Although... switch to fighter/thrower with power throw and rapid shot, hope for a bardic buddy... might not actually be half bad. ~16 rocks/round at level 11, and each rock could potentially ricochet) I also think I'd be unsated by Bob the generic Occult Slayer cheese of the week with cleric cohort. I'd feel dirty; even if I did try and play it off as Bob having multiple invisible friends but completely unable to perceive this 'spirit' that heals him and aids him in his divine quest to slay all magic users. I'd probably make him terrified of gnomes for good measure. I think it boils down to the fact that I like my characters flavorful, but the power gamer in me is always has to look for that edge.
Mommy was an Orc 01-11-07, 09:11 AM	Generally speaking, I don't play the supertweaked builds. If I do, I play what I call "Tweaked Minus One" - that's where the build is the supertweaked one, but I toss in levels of some extremely party useful class such as Rogue instead of the ideal one for the build. I'll spend skills and up to one or two feats strategically to emphasize that class. I also rarely pick stats that are that tweaked out - I've yet to spend more than 10 build points on a stat. As an example, I'm playing a Rogue 3/Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Pious Templar 4+4 levels of something else build. I'm not 100% certain what those other levels are - I had intended to cast Divine Insight to make up for a lack of ranks in Disable Device, but....Could be some combo of Ranger, Rogue, Nightsong Enforcer/Infiltrator, and/or Seeker of the Misty Isle. Rogue would probably be best, but that would mean an XP penalty. Yes, I know that's a 'good' thing, but I dislike it heavily. I also took Tactile Trapsmith - right now, I've got a Search check of +18 at 6th level. Now obviously, it probably would be more ideal to have something other than those 3 Rogue levels. But from a party perspective, my archer really contributes in Spot/Listen/Search checks and he's just good enough at the Disable Device/Track rolls to be functional. Yet at the same time, he's about as good as a tweaked archer build one level below him except he has better equipment. What's interesting, is that the couple of times I've gone into melee, the sneak attack damage has proven extremely useful in helping compensate for doing the 'wrong' thing. Kind of weird. Anyway, my current builds in play: Human Bard 9/Marshal(Motivate Charisma) 1/Sublime Chord 5 Wood Elf Rogue 3/Fighter 2/Ranger 6/Pious Templar 4 Human Monk 2/Sorc 3/Paladin 2/Enlightened Fist 8 Human Wizard 10/Earth Dreamer 5 - Augment Summoning, Magic of the Land and Domain(Healing) - very life/healing/buff oriented. This compensates for only having 16 Int to start - the majority of his spells won't have a DC attached.
frupton 01-15-07, 08:53 AM	To build, or not to build: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows in a standard core build, Or to twink out against a sea of troubles, And by exploiting, break them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by “twink out” to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis an opt’mization Devoutly to be wish'd. To build, to twink; To twink: perchance to cheese: ay, there's the rub; For with that build of cheese what rules may come When we have shuffl'd through each campaign source Must give us pause: there's the respect That makes the Player’s Handbook come to life; For who would bear a whip with improv'd trip, Improv'd shield bash, or two weapon defense, The tower shield proficiency, quick draw, The inaptness of toughness, and the feats That lacking merit, the unworthy takes, When he himself might a shocktrooper make With a keen falchion? Who would far shot bear, To grunt and sweat under an archer’s life, But that the dread of something worse than death, The next Dispel Confusion from whose bourn No cheddar’d build returns, puzzles the will And makes us rather choose those feats we have Than those imbalanc'd ones we know now of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all; And thus the Radiant Servant of Pelor behooves him not to heighten holy words. And Metamagics of great pith and moment With this regard their Clerics turn awry, And gain the name “Restricted.”
kegdrainer 01-15-07, 12:04 PM	Great post there frumpton. The hard part is making a build in LG where it is well rounded but does not steal the thunder from the rest of the players. After a while, I find that builds that can dish out massive amounts of damage are boring. The Deepwood Sniper from 3.0 comes to mind. Being able crit with an arrow and doing 40-140 pts of damage, is great. All of you reading that last sentence and thinking to yourselves, mine did more damage than that, it might have been fun for you but what about the others that were adventuring, did they enjoy playing the game or were they bored to death? I am sure many players here had games where you wondered why you even bothered playing the adventure. One of the players did everything and you felt more like a NPC than a player. While it is nice to be in the spotlight, if the game is no longer enjoyable for the others, people leave and tell other players their unpleasent experences with LG. (I find now that when I make a build, its just to try out an area of D&D that I had not played in other games, like trip attacks, mounted combat, etc. just to see how the rules work.) Just something to think about.
_m_ 01-15-07, 04:55 PM	To build, or not to build: that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows in a standard core build, Or to twink out against a sea of troubles, And by exploiting, break them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by “twink out” to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to. 'Tis an opt’mization Devoutly to be wish'd. To build, to twink; To twink: perchance to cheese: ay, there's the rub; For with that build of cheese what rules may come When we have shuffl'd through each campaign source Must give us pause: there's the respect That makes the Player’s Handbook come to life; For who would bear a whip with improv'd trip, Improv'd shield bash, or two weapon defense, The tower shield proficiency, quick draw, The inaptness of toughness, and the feats That lacking merit, the unworthy takes, When he himself might a shocktrooper make With a keen falchion? Who would far shot bear, To grunt and sweat under an archer’s life, But that the dread of something worse than death, The next Dispel Confusion from whose bourn No cheddar’d build returns, puzzles the will And makes us rather choose those feats we have Than those imbalanc'd ones we know now of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all; And thus the Radiant Servant of Pelor behooves him not to heighten holy words. And Metamagics of great pith and moment With this regard their Clerics turn awry, And gain the name “Restricted.” thats really very good frumpton. :clap:
frupton 01-16-07, 01:41 AM	Thanks. I see you've honored me by adding an "m" to my name. :D Further bard services available upon request, in exchange for luxury upkeep when visiting your region. -- Humble Bard of Nyrond.
_m_ 01-16-07, 01:53 AM	Thanks. I see you've honored me by adding an "m" to my name. :D Further bard services available upon request, in exchange for luxury upkeep when visiting your region. -- Humble Bard of Nyrond. luxury upkeep eh... in perenland. you'd probably be better of staying in my summer house... there isnt much luxury in perenland. and fru(m)pton... everyone should be so lucky :D