Post/Author/DateTime	Post
gomeztoo 05-26-07, 11:29 AM	I have a 10th lvl Dragon Disciple (BBn1/Ftr1/Sor1/Rgr1/Clr1/DD5), with a BAB of +6 and a 18 Strength (22 when raging). Is it a good choice (with a sub-optimal BAB) to take Power Attack with this PC, or is it a wasted effort? As in: fat use to have Power Attack when you're going to hit squat...
Ralis 05-26-07, 12:29 PM	I'm not sure what to say honestly. But if you have to ask a question like this its probably not a good sign. The question I want to ask, is why did you take so many base classes? If Dragon Disiple was your goal all along, a sorcerer build would have done it, and you'd have more powerful magic to take advantage of. If you want the melee worthyness, a fighter sorcerer.
Sieylianna 05-26-07, 02:18 PM	Do you use a two-handed weapon? Do you have weapons of the various materials to bypass DR? If the answer to the first is yes and the answer to the second is no, then it's probably worthwhile. Not as good as if your BAB was better, but not a bad choice. Otherwise, I'd say it's a waste. Ed
Suvarov454 05-26-07, 02:44 PM	For a definitive answer, try running the numbers. Visit this Combat Calculator (http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php), plug in your Disciple's statistics, and hit "Calculate". You'll get a chart listing the average damage you'll do, based on AC, and recommend the amount of power attack to apply (for each line) to maximise damage output. Obviously, for the results to be of use to you, you can't have any odd luck. If you have a tendency of rolling low when you need high, but rolling high when you need anything but a one, YMMV. :P
jstorrie 05-26-07, 04:46 PM	Power Attack isn't all that awful for low-BAB/high-to-hit types because generally speaking you don't want to dump more than two to four points of to-hit into Power Attack anyway. With your high Dragon Disciple strength it could work just fine.
Mommy was an Orc 05-26-07, 11:12 PM	I have a 10th lvl Dragon Disciple (BBn1/Ftr1/Sor1/Rgr1/Clr1/DD5), with a BAB of +6 and a 18 Strength (22 when raging). Is it a good choice (with a sub-optimal BAB) to take Power Attack with this PC, or is it a wasted effort? As in: fat use to have Power Attack when you're going to hit squat... When you start to get that far behind the curve, you're going to have issues - you're not just a relatively low BAB Dragon Disciple-type, you're also shockingly a low strength Dragon Disciple-type without the feats to compensate - a Fighter 10 with a starting strength of 16, levels it twice, and has a +4 Strength Belt has a 22 Strength, same as yours when you Rage. A normal Dragon Disciple with your general build, but a level of Fighter instead of Cleric and a starting strength of 16(+levelling it) has an additional +4 to hit in essence In a sense, you're a Fighter who uses Strength to hit, but you started out with a 12 and you don't seem to have a Strength Belt or Gauntlets of Ogre Power. And you've been dinged on BAB.
_metz_ 05-26-07, 11:48 PM	*eyes boggle at said character* How did it get to level 10??? If you use a two handed weapon -, yes, take power attack. BUY SOME GAUNTLETS! Can you give us the full build? this one looks like it needs some retraining help!
gomeztoo 05-27-07, 06:40 AM	Nesalia was originally not build to do massive amounts of damage. I'm not very good in designing massive damage builds so I aimed for a supporting fighter, the type that takes the hits, provides the flanking, draws AoO, etc. She started out as an elf with 14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis and 10 Cha. I upped Con later on (to 14) as I figured it was more important than Str at that point. She currently has gloves of dexterity and a cloak of charisma. She wears light armor and wields a two-bladed sword (silver +1/cold iron), though she also has some backup weapons, most of them exotic. She is an odd build, sure. Part of choices made are due to roleplaying choices. Her cleric level is because the DM asked me to make a cleric instead of a fighter (which i had originally planned). So I started with a cleric of Zagyg (which later changed to Aasterinian), who was really more of a fighter. It hurt my BAB but it worked out well eventually due to domain powers and spells that, I would like to add, saved the parties butt several times. Yes, 1st level spells at APL 10... She is a character that knows to survive, can take loads of damage and take a few spells, can make herself near-immune to undead attacks, and has several tricks up her sleeve. She is a character for battle field control: providing flanking, taking hits, hitting either 2-handed or with a two-bladed weapon and bite, etc. The one thing that bothers me is that against massive hp creatures or some DR creatures (golems, mostly), she cannot output enough damage to sufficiently hurt them. So I'm considering taking Power Attack now as I can now retrain another feat (Draconic Heritage). Also thinking of taking an adamantine weapon, but that is pretty expensive, and I would still like to increase damage output. Oh and a Strength belt would be a nice idea *IF* I had the coin.
_metz_ 05-27-07, 07:39 AM	Nesalia was originally not build to do massive amounts of damage. I'm not very good in designing massive damage builds so I aimed for a supporting fighter, the type that takes the hits, provides the flanking, draws AoO, etc. She started out as an elf with 14 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis and 10 Cha. I upped Con later on (to 14) as I figured it was more important than Str at that point. She currently has gloves of dexterity and a cloak of charisma. She wears light armor and wields a two-bladed sword (silver +1/cold iron), though she also has some backup weapons, most of them exotic. She is an odd build, sure. Part of choices made are due to roleplaying choices. Her cleric level is because the DM asked me to make a cleric instead of a fighter (which i had originally planned). So I started with a cleric of Zagyg (which later changed to Aasterinian), who was really more of a fighter. It hurt my BAB but it worked out well eventually due to domain powers and spells that, I would like to add, saved the parties butt several times. Yes, 1st level spells at APL 10... She is a character that knows to survive, can take loads of damage and take a few spells, can make herself near-immune to undead attacks, and has several tricks up her sleeve. She is a character for battle field control: providing flanking, taking hits, hitting either 2-handed or with a two-bladed weapon and bite, etc. The one thing that bothers me is that against massive hp creatures or some DR creatures (golems, mostly), she cannot output enough damage to sufficiently hurt them. So I'm considering taking Power Attack now as I can now retrain another feat (Draconic Heritage). Also thinking of taking an adamantine weapon, but that is pretty expensive, and I would still like to increase damage output. Oh and a Strength belt would be a nice idea *IF* I had the coin. If you are a melee character that wields two handed, power attack is the way to go. Even if you only ever power attack for 5, thats a 200% return on your hit roll. If you are going full DD for fluff reasons, then it will work out pretty funky, at least for level 15... At the moment if you are a good player then you can make any marginal build work. The issue is the well built characters who do stupid stuff. (I know of several people who have optimised characters for their kids) Also players who give up or disappear for a smoko during a fight can be absolutely lethal as well.
copper_wyrmling 05-27-07, 11:47 AM	Gomez, yeah, I would take PA with Nes. Don't forget that her natural weapon attacks will also get a damage bonus, even if it's only 1:1. There are various party-buffs that become more common at the higher APLs that can significantly boost your chance to hit (righteous wrath of the faithful, recitation, +3 or better greater magic weapon), and having the option to convert those bonuses into damage is nice. Also it would let you rip your way out of monsters' stomachs more easily (since the stomach wall normally has AC in the low teens) when they're dumb enough to swallow the girl with claws :P (My poor behirs...) And metz - I've GM'ed this character. I'm not at all surprised she got to L10 (even if my dice hate her: due to a crit with a Harm spell, she got to save for half and take 110 damage at APL 10... AFTER soaking two full-attacks from a pair of flanking rogues with lots of natural weapons earlier in the mod, which would've killed almost anyone else in the party). She's only down 1 BAB versus a more typical dragon disciple build (four levels of fighterish classes and one in sorcerer), and that cleric level actually proved very useful (for will saves, a Luck reroll, and in that particular mod, a casting of Resurgence after the fighter failed his DC 26 Fort save vs hezrou stench...) Her damage is not amazing, but nor is it ignorable, and she's a pretty good meatshield.
_metz_ 05-27-07, 12:17 PM	Oh I was just surprised at how the character came into being was all, and how it got to where it is. 5 base classes then a 10 level prestige class is always a little unusual. Most people change their mind and stop playing a character with such randomness :P I know many non optimised characters that are useful cos the players are canny. hence my point on uncanny players :) The extra con next level will be crazy useful as well. I think a good weapon and some stat boosters should be TOP priority to ensure that at APL 12 you aren't too far behind though. (do you have extra rage? - looks like you could do with the str, I'd take it at lvl 12 if you don't have it already) But retrain into Power attack yeah, as I already said.
Mommy was an Orc 05-27-07, 02:57 PM	in that particular mod, a casting of Resurgence after the fighter failed his DC 26 Fort save vs hezrou stench...) Her damage is not amazing, but nor is it ignorable, and she's a pretty good meatshield. I think that's a really good example of overvaluing an option. Yes, that tactical option worked out great - but she's spending an action on bringing the Fighter back into play because she can't easily hurt the Hezrou with her own attacks. I'd definitely get Power Attack, a +1 Starmetal Great Falchion(or Great Scimitar), and a +4 Strength Belt. Most certainly before being put into the position of playing APL 12(where an Elder Elemental is no longer an encounter, but can be a flunky instead)
copper_wyrmling 05-27-07, 10:33 PM	I think that's a really good example of overvaluing an option. Yes, that tactical option worked out great - but she's spending an action on bringing the Fighter back into play because she can't easily hurt the Hezrou with her own attacks. I'm not sure what you're saying here. Rather than move in and take a single attack, she moved in and restored her ally, giving the party an extra melee combatant within full-attack range of the first of the bad guys. That was a really good move: it still would've been a really good move if she'd had Str 40 and a holy sacred weapon. (Note that it wasn't just the hezrou they were dealing with.) In pretty much every other fight, she used her melee attacks: gomeztoo seems to understand pretty well that the cleric spells are just a minor fringe benefit (I believe Nes' most-used benefits from that level are the Luck domain reroll and undead-turning to power her divine feat(s)), and the PC is primarily a melee type who shouldn't be wasting her standard actions. I've met PCs whose preferred in-combat actions at L9 are to cast Bless: Nesalia is not one of them. She is a reasonably effective fighter already, against most opponents. I think Power Attack would make her more effective, and of course starmetal is always lovely if you have access. (My L10 fighter's never seen it, I don't think my L12 sorcerer has either, and gomeztoo has rather limited play opportunities.) A +4 Strength belt would REALLY be worth the money, as would Boots of Speed (my dervish just spent all his money buying both on the same AR, and has been very happy with them).
Mommy was an Orc 05-28-07, 12:03 AM	I'm not sure what you're saying here. Rather than move in and take a single attack, she moved in and restored her ally, giving the party an extra melee combatant within full-attack range of the first of the bad guys. That was a really good move: it still would've been a really good move if she'd had Str 40 and a holy sacred weapon. I'm not arguing it was a bad move for her. It was her only good move, regardless of the tactical positions. There are much better moves if she can damage it significantly and someone else can cast resurgence(or better yet, Delay Poison) - the difference that having Power Attack and having invested more than 3K in your primary weapon and primary attack stat items at APL 10 will make.
rutrow424 05-29-07, 05:39 PM	Take Power attack - it is a good option even if you don't always use it. As for all the other stuff, the build is certainly not optimal, but it appears ok if you value the diversity. My own DD build is Barb1/Bd4/DD8, and was built as an archer to survive to the higher levels (PB/Precise/Rapid Shot). It seems I did something similar to you in being a damage-soaker, and spent most of my $ on AC boosts. I also only started w/ a 14 strength and only bought a +4 strength belt at level 12. I will likely retrain to Power attack at my next opportunity, but only because Franzya is always the only front-liner when she plays (or so it seems). As long as you are having fun with the build (and I can tell you are), the rest will generally work out.
solbergb 05-29-07, 06:16 PM	I have a 10th lvl Dragon Disciple (BBn1/Ftr1/Sor1/Rgr1/Clr1/DD5), with a BAB of +6 and a 18 Strength (22 when raging). Is it a good choice (with a sub-optimal BAB) to take Power Attack with this PC, or is it a wasted effort? As in: fat use to have Power Attack when you're going to hit squat... Can you hit things right now? If you can, you can always power attack for whatever bonuses other people or situations give you. (eg, power attack for two when charging, power attack for four when charging into a flank, power attack for 8 when charging a prone opponent in a flank etc) If you can't hit things pretty reliably, power attack is likely not such a good idea. It isn't about your BAB. It's about how high your total attack mods are relative to the enemy AC. A hill giant doesn't have all that much BAB, but his strength is so high relative to his usual PC targets that power attack often makes sense.
Howie23 05-29-07, 06:39 PM	It isn't about your BAB. It's about how high your total attack mods are relative to the enemy AC. A hill giant doesn't have all that much BAB, but his strength is so high relative to his usual PC targets that power attack often makes sense. This is true. It's also about how much base damage you are doing; both go into the expected damage. The more you are doing without power attack, the more likely you want to make sure to hit in order to deliver the damage. The glory that is Power Attack isn't about the huge damage possibility...it is the flexibility of being able to deliver different expected damages in different circumstances. But, to truely optimize it, you have to metagame the remaining HP of the creature, which isn't everyone's cup of tea. David
TWG_Prometheus 05-30-07, 01:55 PM	I'm going to voice some dissent here and cry fool's gold. I won't dispute the usefulness of a character that a Judge says is holding their own, but if we're talking damage potential, Power Attack isn't the solution here. The feat wouldn't hurt, sure, but using it alone will result only in an experience that ranges between some moderate success and an enormously aggrivating string of misses. It can help, but doesn't get at the heart of the problem. Making some assumptions about the character in question, I'm guessing that their unbuffed raging full attack routine goes something like: +12/+7 +1 Silver Head (1d8+6) +12 Mwk Cold Iron Head (1d8+3) +5 Bite (1d6+3) At APL 10, this isn't a character that needs to be thinking about Power Attacking unless they're fighting some AC 18- chumps. They're not hitting enough as it is, even with buffs. They could get some mileage out of the feat, but in encounters with actual opponents, using Power Attack will probably do as much harm as good. The character's gear is hurting something awful and to make matters worse, their player indicates that they don't have much gold on hand to work with. Working with limited information, we have: Some light armor Gloves of Dexterity Cloak of Charisma +1 silvered/masterwork cold iron two-bladed sword backup Exotic Weapons At first glance, I can't possibly imagine where all of Nes's gold went to only have this much unless they've overextended themselves in terms of consumables or lost their gear to a pleasure cruise on a yellow-sailed ship. The golfbag of unnamed exotic weapons is a rub, but I can't see how they could've blown off too much money on those unless the golf bag has a better weapon in it than the primary two-bladed sword. My gut feeling says that if Nes is looking for a damage kick, switching their focus to a different weapon is the place to start. Two-weapon fighting with a dragon disciple is a lot like losing an arm with almost any other character---you relinquish use of your off-hand which would've had an attack routine even if you did nothing with it and you shoot yourself in the foot by taking a -2 attack on your primary attack and natural weapons. Assuming that Nes has Weapon Focus in the two-bladed sword, exotic weapon proficiency and the two-weapon fighting feat, I'd start with retraining out of Two-Weapon Fighting into something useful (Power Attack would work) and just fight two-handed with the two-bladed sword until you can retrain out of the rest of the feats. To make the point about two-weapon fighting being a poor choice with a dragon disciple, consider what happens when you just use one end of the two-bladed sword in one hand rather than two-weapon fighting with it. The attack routine changes to something like: +14/+9 +1 Silver Head (1d8+6) +7 Claw (1d4+3) +7 Bite (1d6+3) The upgrade in the attack bonus for the Silver Head and Bite is probably worth at least the difference in attack quality between the cold iron head attack and the claw, and you're effectively just using a longsword. No EWP and no TWF. That's two feats that are doing zero for the character. Due to the natural attacks that are hard to enchant or upgrade, Dragon Disciples run off of Strength. They won't ever get enough of it. Auction off some gear you use infrequently if necessary, and get some Strength boosters or weapon enhancements. At APL 10 income rates, it shouldn't take long to get that +4 Belt of Giant Strength. Then you'll have something to work with. (Assumes two-handed fighting style) +16/+11 +1 Silver Head (1d8+12) +9 Bite (1d6+4)
gomeztoo 05-30-07, 02:50 PM	Few clarifications to satisfy the curious: - unbuffed raging attack: two-handed: +13/+8/+7 (1d8+9/1d8+9/1d6+6) two-weapon style: +11/+11/+6/+5 (1d8+6/1d8+3/1d8+6/1d6+6) (BAB +6, Str +6, -2 two-weapon style, +1 (magic/mw) weapon and byte) - other magic include a mithral chain +2, a +1 animated shield, a iounstone, bag of tricks and a dragonbone composite bow. Most money actually went into trying to get a reasonable AC (fat use going into melee without one). However, she did make a few bad buys (one item that turned out she couldn't use as she thought and had to sell back for half as I couldn't un-do the buy, a load of consumables for an interactive that provided the win but nobody else wished to pay for, and gold for the town project). She also uses relatively many consumables. Especially wands of cure light go very fast as we don't have a lot of clerics in the region. I probably buy too much stuff, nut I should have had more had I not made a few mistakes. But water, bridge. I guess I need to save up money for the belt, maybe sell some old stuff to aid. Thing is I was planning to use my coin for something else... - I don't have the EWP feat. I use the Master's Touch spell (swift, from my sorcerer level). As to training out of TWF: don't know. I have to shell out 1100 gp to retrain and sell my token weapon for half (another dip). I'll need to buy another silver and another cold iron weapon. I would rather stick with the feat and weapon, I can use it two-handed if needed and fight two-weapon style if convenient. It is also a *style*, one that is a part of her make-up.
_metz_ 05-30-07, 03:13 PM	Few clarifications to satisfy the curious: - unbuffed raging attack: two-handed: +13/+8/+7 (1d8+9/1d8+9/1d6+6) two-weapon style: +11/+11/+6/+5 (1d8+6/1d8+3/1d8+6/1d6+6) (BAB +6, Str +6, -2 two-weapon style, +1 (magic/mw) weapon and byte) - other magic include a mithral chain +2, a +1 animated shield, a iounstone, bag of tricks and a dragonbone composite bow. Most money actually went into trying to get a reasonable AC (fat use going into melee without one). However, she did make a few bad buys (one item that turned out she couldn't use as she thought and had to sell back for half as I couldn't un-do the buy, a load of consumables for an interactive that provided the win but nobody else wished to pay for, and gold for the town project). She also uses relatively many consumables. Especially wands of cure light go very fast as we don't have a lot of clerics in the region. I probably buy too much stuff, nut I should have had more had I not made a few mistakes. But water, bridge. I guess I need to save up money for the belt, maybe sell some old stuff to aid. Thing is I was planning to use my coin for something else... - I don't have the EWP feat. I use the Master's Touch spell (swift, from my sorcerer level). As to training out of TWF: don't know. I have to shell out 1100 gp to retrain and sell my token weapon for half (another dip). I'll need to buy another silver and another cold iron weapon. I would rather stick with the feat and weapon, I can use it two-handed if needed and fight two-weapon style if convenient. It is also a *style*, one that is a part of her make-up. I think this character will be in trouble at APL 12 without the following: Focus on ONE attack style (without sneak, flurry, etc, I would go the Two-Handed PA option) Some Str Stat Boosters Maybe Weapon Focus or something that could help with the unbuffed hitting. I would suggest going for a Magic Greatsword or something for your primary weapon, and buy a wand of Magic Weapon for casting on cold iron/silver weapons for overcoming DR. The difference between APL 10 and APL 12 is a massive jump in the curve. (Compare the differences just in elementals, which are just a generic low EL monster at APL 12) I think you need to find something that is in character, and retrain/switch focus to it, lest some problems really start occuring. Resurgence/cure light wounds/doing 1d8+6 damage is nothing compared to the fighter doing 1d10+35 damage PER attack with the same to hit bonus, or the wizard casting Disintegrate for an average of 84 damage. Regardless of the strategy of the player, you will start to really be unable to contribute at APL 12 without some focus.
TWG_Prometheus 05-30-07, 03:24 PM	I do respect that style as well, even if it doesn't show in my earlier post. I was approaching the matter from a 'how to raise damage' standpoint only. I guess I took it as a given that retraining wasn't a major issue, since we were talking about Power Attack. Are we instead talking about a level 12 feat? The hardest part of the equation is that the damage and the attack bonus both need to go upwards in order to achieve any real semblance of damage potential. Outside of pure gear improvements, it's not easy to do while maintaining a fighting style that's giving you poor to no returns. With few Clerics in the area, things get even harder since the buffs won't be as forthcoming, although Bards can work too, and Heroism can work in a pinch. If you're really having a hard time with consumables, look into getting some Pearls of Power I if you haven't yet. You're a bit late in the progression, but they still pay off wonderfully with Lesser Vigor, and there's nothing stopping you from memorizing one of those each day. Hopefully your party members will help out as well. A Cleric 1 shouldn't have to be draining wands of CLW repeatedly. I doubt it's actually true, but my Cleric for RHoD claims that the three PP1 that I supply him with have paid their cost off already. --------------- Rules Check: I'm making my own Dragon Disciple, and I was under the impression that if you're using a weapon the bite attack will only get 1/2 of your Strength as a bonus since it switches to being a secondary weapon. If a Dragon Disciple is using a dagger in one hand and a claw/bite I understood the modifiers would go: Dagger: 1d4+Strength Bite: 1d6+(Strength/2) Claw: 1d4+(Strength/2) Am I getting this wrong? Do you have a reference?
Mommy was an Orc 05-30-07, 03:55 PM	Especially wands of cure light go very fast as we don't have a lot of clerics in the region. This is definitely where you should be able to better control how much money you end up spending. It is hard to do when you're actually the healer, but my non-healer characters try to buy Pearls of Power 1st level to hand to the party cleric for Lesser Vigor. I think that's one of the most important team actions one can do in LG - it encourages players to want to play Clerics.
rutrow424 05-30-07, 05:31 PM	Rules Check: I'm making my own Dragon Disciple, and I was under the impression that if you're using a weapon the bite attack will only get 1/2 of your Strength as a bonus since it switches to being a secondary weapon. If a Dragon Disciple is using a dagger in one hand and a claw/bite I understood the modifiers would go: Dagger: 1d4+Strength Bite: 1d6+(Strength/2) Claw: 1d4+(Strength/2) Am I getting this wrong? Do you have a reference? As someone who has 1 dragon disciple and is progressing a 2nd PC (more optimized) in that direction, you are correct. I also think its shaky ground to think you could attack with the 2-bladed sword (as a 2H weapon) and still get a claw attack, as was suggested in the same post.
TWG_Prometheus 05-30-07, 10:11 PM	As someone who has 1 dragon disciple and is progressing a 2nd PC (more optimized) in that direction, you are correct. I also think its shaky ground to think you could attack with the 2-bladed sword (as a 2H weapon) and still get a claw attack, as was suggested in the same post. I think you misunderstood me. It is possible to use a 2-bladed sword with just one hand, but only if you attack with just one end. I can't find a reference to it in the post you quoted at all, and I varied between the weapon styles in the post before, but I believe it's consistent if you watch the damage bonus being applied from Nes's Strength multiplier. I definitely agree that you can't get a claw attack if you're fighting with both of your hands.
Howie23 05-30-07, 11:16 PM	I think you misunderstood me. It is possible to use a 2-bladed sword with just one hand, but only if you attack with just one end. I'm pretty sure that the reference you're looking for requires that you are using an undersized double weapon, doesn't it? Not 100% on that, and happy to be corrected. David
gomeztoo 05-31-07, 06:43 AM	I guess I took it as a given that retraining wasn't a major issue, since we were talking about Power Attack. Are we instead talking about a level 12 feat? I can retrain two feats for free. One I planned to retrain in something equivalent (Draconic Skin to Improved Natural Armor), leaving me one feat (Draconic Heritage) left to retrain. Retraining TWF however will cost me money, and I just be told I'll need all I can get to buy a belt... :P I don't mind to fight two-handed and optimize more for that, I fight two-handed often enough, i.e. against opponents with DR. But I want to stick to my current weapon (which I can wield two-handed) as it already cost me near 4,000 gp, and keep TWF as an extra option - it will likely pay off with low AC opponents such as oozes, and 1d8 OR 2d6 is not a difference that I want to sacrifice a signature weapon for (and get an extra gold hit).
_metz_ 05-31-07, 06:53 AM	Have you got extra or reckless rage? If not losing TWF for Extra rage or even Reckless rage could be worth it. (+2 str and +2 con when raging) Will help on the str, damage, and hit points front. If you don't have Extra Rage it would be murder to NOT retrain TWF for it.
solbergb 05-31-07, 11:56 AM	I'm pretty sure that the reference you're looking for requires that you are using an undersized double weapon, doesn't it? Not 100% on that, and happy to be corrected. David Yeah, I ran into that with quarterstaff at a table recently. My ruling was that it referred to undersized versions. I let the guy say "I have a club for onehanded use" and he was happy with that. Wouldn't work as well for double sword though. Seriously, a double weapon and power attack aren't incompatable. Swing two-handed when you can't do a full attack, and don't power attack when you do the TWF thing.
TWG_Prometheus 05-31-07, 12:22 PM	You guys seriously rule that "A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." only applies when the weapon is smaller than the character using it? That's making a fairly large logical leap and assuming that the rules are addressing an extreme outside case directly---something they almost never do. I don't buy it. Table variation I guess...not like it's important. Wielding a weapon that way is suboptimal to begin with. --------------------- More to the point! The suggestions above about investing further in your barbarian Rage will probably pay off much better than Power Attack right now. In order to get any real use out of Power Attack, you have to have at least a decent attack modifier to start with, and you're not to that point yet.
Howie23 05-31-07, 12:47 PM	Response moved to rules forum: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12563148#post12563148
solbergb 05-31-07, 07:20 PM	You guys seriously rule that "A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." Yes, we really do. The support is that double-weapons are all two-handed weapons on the weapon charts, and the only way to weild a two-handed weapon in one hand is to use a smaller sized version. QED. Not something that will ever be overturned by a senior judge. So don't count on it at every table.