Tripping Warchanter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tripping Warchanter? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Marvin_bishop
08-12-07, 09:51 PM I have the beginnings of a warchanter whose basic MO is to sing to inspire courage while tripping in Melee. He's level 2 right now just about to hit lvl 3, the build plays out like this...

Human
str14
dex14
con10
int14
wis10
cha14

01:Bard: Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip
02:Fighter: Combat Reflexes
03:Bard: Hold the Line
04:Fighter: Weapon Focus (Glaive)
05:Bard
06:Warchanter: Leadership
07:WC
08:WC
09:WC: ?
10:WC
11-15?

I want him to have a military commander feel (hence the leadership) and the ability to survive as a second line melee combatant. Right now, I'm keenly noticing the fact that he only has one use of music per day, but I think that will get better as he adds bard and warchanter levels.
Specific Questions:
1. Should I add Marshal levels into the mix, pushing back warchanter but adding auras?
2. His plan is to wear plate to bump his sad AC, what are some useful spells without somatic components?
3. What do I do for feats/classes past 9th level? Is the combine songs ability worthwhile?
4. Is tripping going to be a viable tactic long term? I know he's probably always going to need enlarge and he'll buy buy strength bump gear as soon as he can but will it be enough?

Any help I could get would be much appreciated

Thanks
JRROGERS
08-12-07, 10:53 PM From reading on the boards a lot over the past year, tripping is almost never worth it unless you are ready to go all the way (all tripping feats, totally statted out to do it all the time, etc.).
Mommy was an Orc
08-12-07, 11:17 PM You definitely want Art of War or Motivate Strength as a Marshal Aura. That will make up for your Strength score. In fact, I'd do it as my 3rd level choice.

The real big issue is that your hit points are going to be lousy for a melee character.
Frumpkis
08-13-07, 03:59 AM You definitely want Art of War or Motivate Strength as a Marshal Aura. That will make up for your Strength score. In fact, I'd do it as my 3rd level choice.

Agreed.

The real big issue is that your hit points are going to be lousy for a melee character.

No kidding. I'd drop the Dex down to 10 (it's not going to help you much while you're wearing that plate mail) and bump Con up to 14. Maybe even drop Dex & Wis both down to 8, and then raise either Str or Con to 16.

If you're worried about the lack of bardic music, you can always take the Extra Music feat early on, and then retrained it out later when you have enough bard levels.
Banor
08-13-07, 08:49 AM I am running currently this build which is pretty much a tripping warchanter

Level 1 Marshal 1 Power attack (taking Art of War)
Level 2 Marshal 2 (Motivate Attack)
Level 3 Marshal 3 (Motivate Dexterity) Weapon focus (Guisarme)
Level 4 Fighter 1 Combat Expertise (Stat bump INT)
Level 5 Fighter 2 Improved Trip
Level 6 Bard 1 Extra Song
Level 7 Warchanter 1
Level 8 Warchanter 2 (Stat bump CHA)
Level 9 Warchanter 3 Leadership
Level 10 Outcast champion 1
Level 11 Outcast champion 2
Level 12 Outcast Champion 3 Sociable personality (stat bump CHA)
Level 13 Outcast Champion 4
Level 14 Outcast Champion 5
Level 15 Marshal 4 Open feat slot
zoinks69
08-13-07, 11:06 AM I've been designing a somewhat similar PC -- focused on buffing the party (going a mix ofmarshal/bard/chanter w/18 cha).

Note that Glaive is not a tripping weapon -- Guisarme is.

I'd agree that tripping is questionable, even with 18str at the start. You'll have plenty of opportunities at low level vs. size M or S, but at mid to high levels, there's plenty of size L and up (this is why I'm focusing on buffing rather than contributing directly). Have you considered Whip to threaten more spaces (the benefit being that, even with -4, you're only trying to Touch and then trip, so you're staying out of reach of the bad guy in most cases).
Banor
08-13-07, 02:52 PM I've been designing a somewhat similar PC -- focused on buffing the party (going a mix ofmarshal/bard/chanter w/18 cha).

Note that Glaive is not a tripping weapon -- Guisarme is.

I'd agree that tripping is questionable, even with 18str at the start. You'll have plenty of opportunities at low level vs. size M or S, but at mid to high levels, there's plenty of size L and up (this is why I'm focusing on buffing rather than contributing directly). Have you considered Whip to threaten more spaces (the benefit being that, even with -4, you're only trying to Touch and then trip, so you're staying out of reach of the bad guy in most cases).

A simple enlarge person can make the build i just posted an effective tripper, even against Large opponent. Being a L1 Spell i think its ok to rely on having it.
Marvin_bishop
08-13-07, 03:13 PM Oops, typo on the glaive, I meant Guisarme. I've already used the whip to good effect at low levels and keep it on hand in case I need a little more reach, but 1d3 subdual is pretty sad. The whip-dagger isn't allowed in LG is it? That would solve some of the problem. Enlarge is already one of my standard buffs with scrolls I can pass of to arcanists who won't memorize it and UMD to try to cast it myself if all else fails (I know the chances are low with both the UMD check and spell failure, but it makes such a huge difference it's worth a shot)

Frumpkis, all good ideas, but the character's already level 2. Makes it sort of hard to change the stats :)

Will I be well served with combat reflexes and hold the line? or should I retrain reflexes and take more bard focused feats. Hold the line certainly fits the feel of the character, but I'm not sure about the mechanics.
Banor
08-13-07, 03:25 PM Will I be well served with combat reflexes and hold the line? or should I retrain reflexes and take more bard focused feats. Hold the line certainly fits the feel of the character, but I'm not sure about the mechanics.

If you got the dex with a guisarme and trip attack, Combat Reflex is a solid choice. Hold the line is also quite effective as it you will probably never be charging because you will be dropping your bardic songs on the 1st round
zoinks69
08-13-07, 03:34 PM A simple enlarge person can make the build i just posted an effective tripper, even against Large opponent. Being a L1 Spell i think its ok to rely on having it.

Better, yes (+20% chance). But you're trading away an arcane caster's (or divine via Strength domain) full round action...half of which they could be casting, for instance, Grease (Color Spray, Glitterdust higher up are also good examples) and affect one or more opponents in the same way as a trip and half of which they could be moving to a more opportune location on the map (out of charge lanes, behind cover from arrows, etc) also keeping in mind that damage before their turn in the next round will require a concentration check. You also won't be large until the caster's next turn, which is generally too late (it's definitely too late at most mid to high levels as the meat with reach have come to get you or your casters).

You can rely on Potions of Enlarge, but that is expensive and also uses a round of actions (though you'll be large when you get done drinking, meaning you'll have bigger reach when the monsters attack if they aren't already on you at that point).

This is not a criticism, just critiquing from what I've seen from apl 2->16. I don't think I've seen any trippers past apl 8 (though I have seen lots of spiked chain wielders).
Banor
08-13-07, 03:43 PM I think that the leadership feat, is perfectly suited for making sure that you got an arcane caster (or a cleric with Strength domain) ready to cast Enlarge person on you at the starts of the combats. You arent really using anybody's action and you are getting much more effective.
Marvin_bishop
08-14-07, 12:39 AM This is not a criticism, just critiquing from what I've seen from apl 2->16. I don't think I've seen any trippers past apl 8 (though I have seen lots of spiked chain wielders).

This is exactly the kind of critique I'm looking for. I'm not opposed to the idea of retraining most of what I've taken over the next few levels though I like the feel of the pikeman. Is there a better secondary way for a warchanter to contribute to the party than through tripping?

I do realize that as I gain more abilities with my music the combat role will be less important but I still want to be effective.
Wyvernhand
08-14-07, 12:59 PM This is exactly the kind of critique I'm looking for. I'm not opposed to the idea of retraining most of what I've taken over the next few levels though I like the feel of the pikeman. Is there a better secondary way for a warchanter to contribute to the party than through tripping?

I do realize that as I gain more abilities with my music the combat role will be less important but I still want to be effective.

Personally, I retrained my spiked chain tripper out of both improved trip and combat expertese as soon as the retraining rules were released (and the relevent levels were gained). He is now level 11, almost 12, and it just doesn't contribute as much as I'd like. I think the last time he felt confident trying to trip something was around APL 8. At that point and lower, it was golden. I chain tripped a small horde of skells as low as level 2, but the rewards don't pay off at higher levels. I've since been getting a lot more mileage out of power attack, and even close quarters fighting, than I have out of improved trip. It's just too bad I'm now stuck with a 14 int with nothing to do with it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Marvin_bishop 08-12-07, 09:51 PM	I have the beginnings of a warchanter whose basic MO is to sing to inspire courage while tripping in Melee. He's level 2 right now just about to hit lvl 3, the build plays out like this... Human str14 dex14 con10 int14 wis10 cha14 01:Bard: Combat Expertise, Imp. Trip 02:Fighter: Combat Reflexes 03:Bard: Hold the Line 04:Fighter: Weapon Focus (Glaive) 05:Bard 06:Warchanter: Leadership 07:WC 08:WC 09:WC: ? 10:WC 11-15? I want him to have a military commander feel (hence the leadership) and the ability to survive as a second line melee combatant. Right now, I'm keenly noticing the fact that he only has one use of music per day, but I think that will get better as he adds bard and warchanter levels. Specific Questions: 1. Should I add Marshal levels into the mix, pushing back warchanter but adding auras? 2. His plan is to wear plate to bump his sad AC, what are some useful spells without somatic components? 3. What do I do for feats/classes past 9th level? Is the combine songs ability worthwhile? 4. Is tripping going to be a viable tactic long term? I know he's probably always going to need enlarge and he'll buy buy strength bump gear as soon as he can but will it be enough? Any help I could get would be much appreciated Thanks
JRROGERS 08-12-07, 10:53 PM	From reading on the boards a lot over the past year, tripping is almost never worth it unless you are ready to go all the way (all tripping feats, totally statted out to do it all the time, etc.).
Mommy was an Orc 08-12-07, 11:17 PM	You definitely want Art of War or Motivate Strength as a Marshal Aura. That will make up for your Strength score. In fact, I'd do it as my 3rd level choice. The real big issue is that your hit points are going to be lousy for a melee character.
Frumpkis 08-13-07, 03:59 AM	You definitely want Art of War or Motivate Strength as a Marshal Aura. That will make up for your Strength score. In fact, I'd do it as my 3rd level choice. Agreed. The real big issue is that your hit points are going to be lousy for a melee character. No kidding. I'd drop the Dex down to 10 (it's not going to help you much while you're wearing that plate mail) and bump Con up to 14. Maybe even drop Dex & Wis both down to 8, and then raise either Str or Con to 16. If you're worried about the lack of bardic music, you can always take the Extra Music feat early on, and then retrained it out later when you have enough bard levels.
Banor 08-13-07, 08:49 AM	I am running currently this build which is pretty much a tripping warchanter Level 1 Marshal 1 Power attack (taking Art of War) Level 2 Marshal 2 (Motivate Attack) Level 3 Marshal 3 (Motivate Dexterity) Weapon focus (Guisarme) Level 4 Fighter 1 Combat Expertise (Stat bump INT) Level 5 Fighter 2 Improved Trip Level 6 Bard 1 Extra Song Level 7 Warchanter 1 Level 8 Warchanter 2 (Stat bump CHA) Level 9 Warchanter 3 Leadership Level 10 Outcast champion 1 Level 11 Outcast champion 2 Level 12 Outcast Champion 3 Sociable personality (stat bump CHA) Level 13 Outcast Champion 4 Level 14 Outcast Champion 5 Level 15 Marshal 4 Open feat slot
zoinks69 08-13-07, 11:06 AM	I've been designing a somewhat similar PC -- focused on buffing the party (going a mix ofmarshal/bard/chanter w/18 cha). Note that Glaive is not a tripping weapon -- Guisarme is. I'd agree that tripping is questionable, even with 18str at the start. You'll have plenty of opportunities at low level vs. size M or S, but at mid to high levels, there's plenty of size L and up (this is why I'm focusing on buffing rather than contributing directly). Have you considered Whip to threaten more spaces (the benefit being that, even with -4, you're only trying to Touch and then trip, so you're staying out of reach of the bad guy in most cases).
Banor 08-13-07, 02:52 PM	I've been designing a somewhat similar PC -- focused on buffing the party (going a mix ofmarshal/bard/chanter w/18 cha). Note that Glaive is not a tripping weapon -- Guisarme is. I'd agree that tripping is questionable, even with 18str at the start. You'll have plenty of opportunities at low level vs. size M or S, but at mid to high levels, there's plenty of size L and up (this is why I'm focusing on buffing rather than contributing directly). Have you considered Whip to threaten more spaces (the benefit being that, even with -4, you're only trying to Touch and then trip, so you're staying out of reach of the bad guy in most cases). A simple enlarge person can make the build i just posted an effective tripper, even against Large opponent. Being a L1 Spell i think its ok to rely on having it.
Marvin_bishop 08-13-07, 03:13 PM	Oops, typo on the glaive, I meant Guisarme. I've already used the whip to good effect at low levels and keep it on hand in case I need a little more reach, but 1d3 subdual is pretty sad. The whip-dagger isn't allowed in LG is it? That would solve some of the problem. Enlarge is already one of my standard buffs with scrolls I can pass of to arcanists who won't memorize it and UMD to try to cast it myself if all else fails (I know the chances are low with both the UMD check and spell failure, but it makes such a huge difference it's worth a shot) Frumpkis, all good ideas, but the character's already level 2. Makes it sort of hard to change the stats :) Will I be well served with combat reflexes and hold the line? or should I retrain reflexes and take more bard focused feats. Hold the line certainly fits the feel of the character, but I'm not sure about the mechanics.
Banor 08-13-07, 03:25 PM	Will I be well served with combat reflexes and hold the line? or should I retrain reflexes and take more bard focused feats. Hold the line certainly fits the feel of the character, but I'm not sure about the mechanics. If you got the dex with a guisarme and trip attack, Combat Reflex is a solid choice. Hold the line is also quite effective as it you will probably never be charging because you will be dropping your bardic songs on the 1st round
zoinks69 08-13-07, 03:34 PM	A simple enlarge person can make the build i just posted an effective tripper, even against Large opponent. Being a L1 Spell i think its ok to rely on having it. Better, yes (+20% chance). But you're trading away an arcane caster's (or divine via Strength domain) full round action...half of which they could be casting, for instance, Grease (Color Spray, Glitterdust higher up are also good examples) and affect one or more opponents in the same way as a trip and half of which they could be moving to a more opportune location on the map (out of charge lanes, behind cover from arrows, etc) also keeping in mind that damage before their turn in the next round will require a concentration check. You also won't be large until the caster's next turn, which is generally too late (it's definitely too late at most mid to high levels as the meat with reach have come to get you or your casters). You can rely on Potions of Enlarge, but that is expensive and also uses a round of actions (though you'll be large when you get done drinking, meaning you'll have bigger reach when the monsters attack if they aren't already on you at that point). This is not a criticism, just critiquing from what I've seen from apl 2->16. I don't think I've seen any trippers past apl 8 (though I have seen lots of spiked chain wielders).
Banor 08-13-07, 03:43 PM	I think that the leadership feat, is perfectly suited for making sure that you got an arcane caster (or a cleric with Strength domain) ready to cast Enlarge person on you at the starts of the combats. You arent really using anybody's action and you are getting much more effective.
Marvin_bishop 08-14-07, 12:39 AM	This is not a criticism, just critiquing from what I've seen from apl 2->16. I don't think I've seen any trippers past apl 8 (though I have seen lots of spiked chain wielders). This is exactly the kind of critique I'm looking for. I'm not opposed to the idea of retraining most of what I've taken over the next few levels though I like the feel of the pikeman. Is there a better secondary way for a warchanter to contribute to the party than through tripping? I do realize that as I gain more abilities with my music the combat role will be less important but I still want to be effective.
Wyvernhand 08-14-07, 12:59 PM	This is exactly the kind of critique I'm looking for. I'm not opposed to the idea of retraining most of what I've taken over the next few levels though I like the feel of the pikeman. Is there a better secondary way for a warchanter to contribute to the party than through tripping? I do realize that as I gain more abilities with my music the combat role will be less important but I still want to be effective. Personally, I retrained my spiked chain tripper out of both improved trip and combat expertese as soon as the retraining rules were released (and the relevent levels were gained). He is now level 11, almost 12, and it just doesn't contribute as much as I'd like. I think the last time he felt confident trying to trip something was around APL 8. At that point and lower, it was golden. I chain tripped a small horde of skells as low as level 2, but the rewards don't pay off at higher levels. I've since been getting a lot more mileage out of power attack, and even close quarters fighting, than I have out of improved trip. It's just too bad I'm now stuck with a 14 int with nothing to do with it.