Tweaking my Rogue/Daring Outlaw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Tweaking my Rogue/Daring Outlaw [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alpha_Nerd
03-15-07, 10:29 AM I've made a couple little changes to the Daring Outlaw I was planning on playing and I just wanted to hear some thoughts.

Human Rogue 3/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 2/Swashbuckler 4

STR 12
DEX 15
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 8
CHA 8

Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative(Practiced Spellcaster at 9th)
Swashbuckler
Swashbuckler Improved Toughness
Swashbuckler DEX +1
Rogue
Rogue Daring Outlaw
Diviner
Fighter INT +1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Unseen Seer Staggering Strike
Unseen Seer
Spellsword
Unseen Seer INT +1, Arcane Strike
Unseen Seer
Spellsword: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
Swashbuckler: Open Feat

+12 BAB
+6d6 Sneak
Int to Damage
Effective 6th level Diviner
Fort: +11
Ref: +5(6 with grace)
Will: +11

So, I've messed around with the build more, just trying to stream-line it. I've switched Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 5 with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4. This allows me to do a couple things, including moving the Unseen Seer dip back to 8th-9th level, giving me more BAB earlier in the career. The three BAB hits end up being at 1st, 7th, and 9th now. I've got no clue what to do with the feat at 15th, but I'm sure by the time I get there I'll find something worthwhile.
Alpha_Nerd
03-15-07, 12:13 PM Bump because I always get anxious when I post a new build but when noone comments on it I get nervous like it's terrible and nobody wants to give me the harsh truth.
Mommy was an Orc
03-15-07, 12:45 PM I think the build has some issues:
Take the following build:
Elf
Rogue 3/Diviner 1/Fighter 4/Unseen Seer 4/Spellsword 3
Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8

Here's where the problems show up - my build eventually has 4 bonus feats(fighter 4, spellsword 2). Your build has 3 bonus feats(human, fighter, spellsword 2). Yet my build does more damage, has 4th level spells, etc...

I wouldn't call that build a particularly strong one, either.

Also, you don't qualify for Practiced Spellcaster at 1st level(4 ranks in Spellcraft) nor Improved Buckler Defense at 3rd(no proficiency in Buckler)

The real strength of Daring Outlaw is that you can take a lot of Swashbuckler levels, have a BAB of +14 and still have +6d6 to +8d6 of sneak attack damage. Ending up with a +12 BAB and only +5d6 hurts, even if you get 3rd level spells out of it.
Alpha_Nerd
03-15-07, 01:45 PM I've changed the build a little. I think it was getting too out-of-hand so I tried to streamline it.

Rogue 2/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellsword 3/Swashbuckler 7

At 15th with a 24 INT that's an additional +7 to all attacks I would be sneaking on. So I have 6d6+7 precision damage and 3rd level spells. I'm dropping CWI for Arcane Strike at 12th, when I do cast spells my DC will actually be pretty good (The only save spell I'll be casting is Unluck)
jstorrie
03-15-07, 01:47 PM I don't think that Daring Outlaw is particularly appropriate to magic users. It's best used creating frontliners who also have full sneak progression. You could straight up Rogue 3 / Swash 12 and still trapfind, do as much damage, and you'd be more able to overcome crit-immune foes because you could just Power Attack.
Alpha_Nerd
03-15-07, 01:56 PM That's the thing though. This character manages to do almost the same amount of damage but he also has 3rd level spells (Including Grave/Golem Strikes) as well as a +10 base Will save at 15th.

Also, something I always wandered, why are all the builds rogue 3/swash 12? Isn't Swashbuckler 12 a really bad level. I know the reroll is Swash 11, so why not pick up Rogue 4 at 15th for uncanny dodge?
Japangirl
03-15-07, 05:09 PM I prefer Rog 10/Swash 5 or Rog 13/Swash 2 builds, myself. The special rogue abilities are sooo good! Especially with Savvy Rogue now.
Puggle Halfwine
03-15-07, 08:06 PM My Rogue3 is going to have some retraining and start taking Swashbuckler levels. However, I'm going to get three Swashbuckler levels before I get my Rogue 4- it's a very nice level considering Swashbuckler gives you almost nothing meaningful aside from BAB.
jstorrie
03-15-07, 10:55 PM Also, something I always wandered, why are all the builds rogue 3/swash 12?

+1 to all saves, +1 bab, and +1d6 Sneak Attack on a d10 hit die? You could take any number of other levels, I suppose, but not many dips would be significantly better. Barbarian + Extra Rage could be okay (and you'd get an XP penalty to delay retirement) but I don't see any one-level dip at level 15 making a huge difference.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alpha_Nerd 03-15-07, 10:29 AM	I've made a couple little changes to the Daring Outlaw I was planning on playing and I just wanted to hear some thoughts. Human Rogue 3/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 4/Fighter 1/Spellsword 2/Swashbuckler 4 STR 12 DEX 15 CON 14 INT 16 WIS 8 CHA 8 Rogue Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Initiative(Practiced Spellcaster at 9th) Swashbuckler Swashbuckler Improved Toughness Swashbuckler DEX +1 Rogue Rogue Daring Outlaw Diviner Fighter INT +1, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting Unseen Seer Staggering Strike Unseen Seer Spellsword Unseen Seer INT +1, Arcane Strike Unseen Seer Spellsword: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Swashbuckler: Open Feat +12 BAB +6d6 Sneak Int to Damage Effective 6th level Diviner Fort: +11 Ref: +5(6 with grace) Will: +11 So, I've messed around with the build more, just trying to stream-line it. I've switched Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 5 with Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4. This allows me to do a couple things, including moving the Unseen Seer dip back to 8th-9th level, giving me more BAB earlier in the career. The three BAB hits end up being at 1st, 7th, and 9th now. I've got no clue what to do with the feat at 15th, but I'm sure by the time I get there I'll find something worthwhile.
Alpha_Nerd 03-15-07, 12:13 PM	Bump because I always get anxious when I post a new build but when noone comments on it I get nervous like it's terrible and nobody wants to give me the harsh truth.
Mommy was an Orc 03-15-07, 12:45 PM	I think the build has some issues: Take the following build: Elf Rogue 3/Diviner 1/Fighter 4/Unseen Seer 4/Spellsword 3 Str 16, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 8 Here's where the problems show up - my build eventually has 4 bonus feats(fighter 4, spellsword 2). Your build has 3 bonus feats(human, fighter, spellsword 2). Yet my build does more damage, has 4th level spells, etc... I wouldn't call that build a particularly strong one, either. Also, you don't qualify for Practiced Spellcaster at 1st level(4 ranks in Spellcraft) nor Improved Buckler Defense at 3rd(no proficiency in Buckler) The real strength of Daring Outlaw is that you can take a lot of Swashbuckler levels, have a BAB of +14 and still have +6d6 to +8d6 of sneak attack damage. Ending up with a +12 BAB and only +5d6 hurts, even if you get 3rd level spells out of it.
Alpha_Nerd 03-15-07, 01:45 PM	I've changed the build a little. I think it was getting too out-of-hand so I tried to streamline it. Rogue 2/Diviner 1/Unseen Seer 2/Spellsword 3/Swashbuckler 7 At 15th with a 24 INT that's an additional +7 to all attacks I would be sneaking on. So I have 6d6+7 precision damage and 3rd level spells. I'm dropping CWI for Arcane Strike at 12th, when I do cast spells my DC will actually be pretty good (The only save spell I'll be casting is Unluck)
jstorrie 03-15-07, 01:47 PM	I don't think that Daring Outlaw is particularly appropriate to magic users. It's best used creating frontliners who also have full sneak progression. You could straight up Rogue 3 / Swash 12 and still trapfind, do as much damage, and you'd be more able to overcome crit-immune foes because you could just Power Attack.
Alpha_Nerd 03-15-07, 01:56 PM	That's the thing though. This character manages to do almost the same amount of damage but he also has 3rd level spells (Including Grave/Golem Strikes) as well as a +10 base Will save at 15th. Also, something I always wandered, why are all the builds rogue 3/swash 12? Isn't Swashbuckler 12 a really bad level. I know the reroll is Swash 11, so why not pick up Rogue 4 at 15th for uncanny dodge?
Japangirl 03-15-07, 05:09 PM	I prefer Rog 10/Swash 5 or Rog 13/Swash 2 builds, myself. The special rogue abilities are sooo good! Especially with Savvy Rogue now.
Puggle Halfwine 03-15-07, 08:06 PM	My Rogue3 is going to have some retraining and start taking Swashbuckler levels. However, I'm going to get three Swashbuckler levels before I get my Rogue 4- it's a very nice level considering Swashbuckler gives you almost nothing meaningful aside from BAB.
jstorrie 03-15-07, 10:55 PM	Also, something I always wandered, why are all the builds rogue 3/swash 12? +1 to all saves, +1 bab, and +1d6 Sneak Attack on a d10 hit die? You could take any number of other levels, I suppose, but not many dips would be significantly better. Barbarian + Extra Rage could be okay (and you'd get an XP penalty to delay retirement) but I don't see any one-level dip at level 15 making a huge difference.