Two different Wizard builds. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two different Wizard builds. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
_metz_
05-25-07, 02:08 PM I am thinking of making a wizard for scourge of the howling horde/or greyhawk ruins (hell just want a wizard)

Classes: Wiz6/Geometer2/FateSpinner2/Loremaster5

the issue atm appears to be what race/stats. and also which feats I should take (barring compulsory ones for the classes and CWI ofc)

two options I am considering:

Dwarf Wiz:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 18
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

Gray Elf:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really...
Lupo
05-25-07, 02:26 PM I am thinking of making a wizard for scourge of the howling horde/or greyhawk ruins (hell just want a wizard)

Classes: Wiz6/Geometer2/FateSpinner2/Loremaster5

the issue atm appears to be what race/stats. and also which feats I should take (barring compulsory ones for the classes and CWI ofc)

two options I am considering:

Dwarf Wiz:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 18
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 6

Gray Elf:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really...

overall good stat distributions :) with your two builds being low on DEX, don't take to many spells that require ranged touch attacks.

consider to build the dwarf with a 16 starting INT [you can't start as mister/mistress UEBER BRAIN anyway] and invest the points into DEX to make your rays and orbs hitting without needing a true strike ;)

the "obvious suspects" for feats are anything that either boost the effects of your spells - like empower and sculpt for area damage - or things that make the DC harder - spell focus in conjuration with fatespinner is really nice.

ciao

martin m.
Timlagor
05-25-07, 03:39 PM Geometer really isn't worth it with the current rules on the Glyphs
Munchausen
05-25-07, 04:55 PM Gray Elf:

Str: 8
Dex: 10
Con: 14
Int: 20
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really...

Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20? I take it you want that high of a Int to add to the spells DC and/or skills? Its like your never going to be able to cast lvl 9th spells anyway (since PC are retired at lvl 16 which means the highest yourself can cast is lvl 8 spells.) So really maybe bring your Int down a point or 2 and add the points into dex (remember you are a elf), or maybe put a few pts into your wis so you dont have any negatives to will saves, even though a wizard start with a +2.

In my opinion.. spread the wealth to some of your starving stats.. or you could look like a ethopian.. heh
Mattastrophic
05-25-07, 05:10 PM Narrow stats like that might also reduce the long-term fun level of the character.

-Matt plays 10 Con characters because it's FUN!
DerekSTheRed
05-25-07, 07:26 PM If you're going to play a wizard in Greyhawk ruins, you absolutely must take the feat Greyhawk Method. You save so much on gold you can afford to buy/craft other useful things like pearls of power, headband of intellect, and a blessed book.

Greyhawk Method(General)
You studied magic at Greyhawk's School of Wizardry, the preeminent institution of arcane study in the entire Flanaess.
Prerequisite: Ability to prepare and cast arcane spells
Region: Greyhawk
Benefit: You gain four new spells of your choice to add to your spellbook each time you gain a level in a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells (such as wizard). These spells represent the results of your research, and must be of spell levels you can cast. If you have chosen to specialize in a school of magic, two of the four free spells must be from your specialty school. Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus feat: Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Magical Aptitude, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration.
Normal: If you are a wizard, you normally gain 2 new spells to add to your spell book each time you gain a level in the wizard class.

Derek
_metz_
05-26-07, 02:22 AM Geometer really isn't worth it with the current rules on the Glyphs

any opinions on what else to plug in there?

As for the stats, I am thinking of this for the elf:

Gray Elf:

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

I insist on usually having at least 14 con with my characters in LG, but this way I can fling orbs/prismatic rays a bit better...
just_be_glad_now
05-26-07, 03:49 AM I think it is important to think of the dex not as shooting assistance but as additional init and ref saves. That's where you'll notice it 90% or so of the time.

That said, I suppose I could suggest taking 4 points total from str and dex and putting 3 into int to bring you to a 19, lots of folks like starting with an odd number so that they can finish even.

The other point could go back into str for shadow protection, into wis so you could receive an imbued find traps, or into cha so you can be the prettiest real wizard at the wizard academy with your 9.

We could probably be of more help if we could tell what you wished to do with this wizard. The PRCs don't help all that much in that regard. What specialty are you considering? What familiar?

just_Be_Glad_now

PS: I'd pass on greyhawk method, since wizards can still craft pretty much whatever they need, despite the changes. Money shouldn't be that much of an issue.

Quote:
"As for the stats, I am thinking of this for the elf:

Gray Elf:

Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 8
Cha: 8

I insist on usually having at least 14 con with my characters in LG, but this way I can fling orbs/prismatic rays a bit better..."
_metz_
05-26-07, 04:55 AM Well I wanted to actually build an extremely versatile wizard, one that whacks out a haste each round as well as producing damage via orbs/fireballs etc.

I was thinking of no specialty, which is why I was going Int 20 to make up for that, but I am really not sure.

We don't have many wizards in Armidale, and so I am not really sure.

Sculpt Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken and Empower are most probable for feat choices, I just want to be a really Versatile and useful classic wizard.

Hence the lore master, good old fashioned bookworm, with full caster progression.

I was looking at Frost Mage for a while, lobbing orbs of cold, ice storms, etc as its regional access in Ratik.

Still really not sure lol, just asking for people's input on what the "really" helpful or useful wizards they have seen out there have been/what they do.
Timlagor
05-26-07, 05:09 AM I like my 16/12/20 Wizrd very much thank you :)

Divine Oracle is the obvious PrC to put into that list -goes superbly well with Loremaster in every way including when you can get in.
_metz_
05-26-07, 06:56 AM hmm...

Wiz 6 DO1 Fatespinner 3 (yay spin on saves) Loremaster5 might be a good option.
Maesto
05-26-07, 08:30 AM Wiz 5/Divine Oracle two is better than Wiz6/Divine Oracle 1 - you get evasion, the same bab, more hitpoints, all for a point of fortitude and reflex saves. Also, Loremaster 6 is a better place to stop than 5 - identify as a standard action at will is REALLY useful:

"We loot the badguys. What do they have?"

"A bunch of equipment."

"No, really, names, activation words, everything - the lot. I wanna know it all!"

"Ok, well, that rod is an x..."

*Yoink!* "Next baddy is gonna regret this..."
zoinks69
05-30-07, 04:38 AM I've also been rolling up wizard options, so I'm with you as far as stat distribution and feats, etc.

I'll have to look at the rules for Geometer...I kinda liked the class too.

Another one I like is Wayfarer's Guide. You'll have to get access, but 1 level of it is pretty nice -- bumps to D. Door and Teleport (hey...I've been in those situations where the wizard says "sorry, you can't tag along while we warp to full attack range on the monster")

I think in the long run it's up to you how many Loremaster you want to take and build from there.

Wiz 6 (+1 to all saves is keen)/Wayfarer's Guide 1/DO 2/Fatespinner 4?/Loremaster. I don't have the stats here, but I don't think you have to take Wiz 6 right away, stash it for later when you need those save bumps :)
_metz_
05-30-07, 10:12 AM hmm, Loremaster 6 gives +1 saves and BAB and free identify...

I think I will go:

Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Loremaster6

OR Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Wiz1/Loremaster5 (for saves earlier on)

I like wayfarers guide, but you have to get access, and I like a build that doesn't need access. (Any access you get = yay)

Its easy with retraining now to change builds if you get access early enough to matter anyways.

Feats:

1. Wizard1: Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion)
2. Wizard2:
3. Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Item
4. Wizard4:
5. Wizard5: Empower
6. Divine Oracle1: Sculpt Spell
7. Divine Oracle2: (evasion)
8. Fatespinner1:
9. Fatespinner2: Quicken (fickle finger of fate)
10. Wizard6::
11. Loremaster1: Maximize Spell
12. Loremaster2: Twin Spell
13. Loremaster3: The lore of true stamina
14. Loremaster4:
15. Loremaster5: knowledge of avoidance

Saves: Fort:5, Reflex:5, Will:15

BAB +6

What do people think of the feats?
bitznarf
05-30-07, 12:59 PM Sculpt Spell requires one other metamagic feat as a pre-requisite; you'll need to swap it with Empower Spell.
_metz_
05-30-07, 01:01 PM Sculpt Spell requires one other metamagic feat as a pre-requisite; you'll need to swap it with Empower Spell.

Ah yes, good point. Thanks
King Kashue
05-30-07, 10:26 PM Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20? I take it you want that high of a Int to add to the spells DC and/or skills? Its like your never going to be able to cast lvl 9th spells anyway (since PC are retired at lvl 16 which means the highest yourself can cast is lvl 8 spells.)

Yeah, it would be for the spell DCs, and those can never be high enough...

And there is the High Level Campaign, so 9th level spells are definitely not a "never gonna see them" situation...
JamesMaissen
05-30-07, 10:45 PM Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20?

I would assume that's because he can't start with an INT of 21.

A wizard can get away with maxing his/her INT score far better than most characters.

From the sounds of it the OP has decided that he can do without much in the way of ranged touch spells. It's a choice, but one you will feel with init and REF saves as well.

Requesting a special mission or looking to find access to Insightful Reflexes will atleast mitigate the later side effect.

It doesn't look like more than one build however. Just a call on whether +2 INT was worth +4 CON.

Pick out the PrCs that you are interested in and see how much they cost you, and how much they really deliver. If a class costs you a level of spellcasting then consider it a second time.. then a third time.

Geometer is nice, but the skill cost is harsh. The spellglyphs are very nice even if they take far far too long to create out of game. If you are looking to do a bunch of sneaky invis reconnoitering then the silent options make them worthwhile. Make atleast one for emergencies to get you out of grapples and silence spells. But I would go atleast to 3rd level for the searching for certain magical traps. A good number of such builds look at a level of scout or rogue even to both offset the skill pain and to get full trapsense, though I think the introduction of the beguiler class is likely to curtail that.

Fatespinner and Loremaster are also good choices as each offers their own strengths.

There are a good number of others out there that you might also like. Have you done a fairly exhaustive search and settled on these?

-James
Lomiat
05-31-07, 12:09 AM hmm, Loremaster 6 gives +1 saves and BAB and free identify...

I think I will go:

Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Loremaster6

OR Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Wiz1/Loremaster5 (for saves earlier on)

I like wayfarers guide, but you have to get access, and I like a build that doesn't need access. (Any access you get = yay)

Its easy with retraining now to change builds if you get access early enough to matter anyways.

Feats:

1. Wizard1: Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion)
2. Wizard2:
3. Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Item
4. Wizard4:
5. Wizard5: Empower
6. Divine Oracle1: Sculpt Spell
7. Divine Oracle2: (evasion)
8. Fatespinner1:
9. Fatespinner2: Quicken (fickle finger of fate)
10. Wizard6::
11. Loremaster1: Maximize Spell
12. Loremaster2: Twin Spell
13. Loremaster3: The lore of true stamina
14. Loremaster4:
15. Loremaster5: knowledge of avoidance

Saves: Fort:5, Reflex:5, Will:15

BAB +6

What do people think of the feats?

Wizards are generally a poor class to play as boom casters. They have so much more versatility than sorcerers and warmages (who get to cast bigger and more frequent boom spells) that reducing a wizard to a series of metamagic feats designed to make booms bigger strikes me as a serious mistake. Furthermore, with your metamagic feats, you'll want to consider how often you'll expect to actually prepare metamagicked spells in your highest slots.

3rd level slots are either: empowered lesser orb of acid OR haste/slow.

4th level slots are either: maximized magic missile or ray of enfeeblement OR Evard's black tentacles, or dimension door.

5th level slots are either: quickened grease, true strike or magic missile OR mass fly, wall of force, or teleport.

Of course, that's not the sum total of your options, but you might recognize how unlikely it is that you'll prepare the metamagicked lower-level spells over the bigger ones -- at least until you've gained higher-level spell slots in which to dump your BIG spells and use your second highest-level slots for the metamagic.

I'd recommend that you take Empower OR Maximize, not both, and I'd give the edge to Empower. I'd also recommend you wait until 9th level to take it; that way you'll still have your 5th level slots for your big spells, and you can use 4th level slots to Empower Scorching Rays or something. Quicken Spell, similarly, can probably wait until 12th level (I got it at 11th with my Loremaster and didn't make all that much use of it until 12th when I freed up more spell slots).

I'd also recommend that you give STRONG consideration to Improved Initiative. I don't have it with my wizard, but I would if I felt compelled to retrain anything.

Finally, grab hold to Insightful Reflexes if you gain access. Without access, you might consider putting Lightning Reflexes into the build somewhere. Being able to evade damage is nice; actually having good odds of evading damage is better.

(P.S. Twin Spell is a long way down on your list, but I'm not a big fan of it. Split Ray is fantastic for Enervation and Disintegrate.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
_metz_ 05-25-07, 02:08 PM	I am thinking of making a wizard for scourge of the howling horde/or greyhawk ruins (hell just want a wizard) Classes: Wiz6/Geometer2/FateSpinner2/Loremaster5 the issue atm appears to be what race/stats. and also which feats I should take (barring compulsory ones for the classes and CWI ofc) two options I am considering: Dwarf Wiz: Str: 8 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 6 Gray Elf: Str: 8 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really...
Lupo 05-25-07, 02:26 PM	I am thinking of making a wizard for scourge of the howling horde/or greyhawk ruins (hell just want a wizard) Classes: Wiz6/Geometer2/FateSpinner2/Loremaster5 the issue atm appears to be what race/stats. and also which feats I should take (barring compulsory ones for the classes and CWI ofc) two options I am considering: Dwarf Wiz: Str: 8 Dex: 10 Con: 18 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 6 Gray Elf: Str: 8 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really... overall good stat distributions :) with your two builds being low on DEX, don't take to many spells that require ranged touch attacks. consider to build the dwarf with a 16 starting INT [you can't start as mister/mistress UEBER BRAIN anyway] and invest the points into DEX to make your rays and orbs hitting without needing a true strike ;) the "obvious suspects" for feats are anything that either boost the effects of your spells - like empower and sculpt for area damage - or things that make the DC harder - spell focus in conjuration with fatespinner is really nice. ciao martin m.
Timlagor 05-25-07, 03:39 PM	Geometer really isn't worth it with the current rules on the Glyphs
Munchausen 05-25-07, 04:55 PM	Gray Elf: Str: 8 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 20 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 Not really sure atm. any help from experienced wizard players out there? my experience is limited to fighters really... Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20? I take it you want that high of a Int to add to the spells DC and/or skills? Its like your never going to be able to cast lvl 9th spells anyway (since PC are retired at lvl 16 which means the highest yourself can cast is lvl 8 spells.) So really maybe bring your Int down a point or 2 and add the points into dex (remember you are a elf), or maybe put a few pts into your wis so you dont have any negatives to will saves, even though a wizard start with a +2. In my opinion.. spread the wealth to some of your starving stats.. or you could look like a ethopian.. heh
Mattastrophic 05-25-07, 05:10 PM	Narrow stats like that might also reduce the long-term fun level of the character. -Matt plays 10 Con characters because it's FUN!
DerekSTheRed 05-25-07, 07:26 PM	If you're going to play a wizard in Greyhawk ruins, you absolutely must take the feat Greyhawk Method. You save so much on gold you can afford to buy/craft other useful things like pearls of power, headband of intellect, and a blessed book. Greyhawk Method(General) You studied magic at Greyhawk's School of Wizardry, the preeminent institution of arcane study in the entire Flanaess. Prerequisite: Ability to prepare and cast arcane spells Region: Greyhawk Benefit: You gain four new spells of your choice to add to your spellbook each time you gain a level in a class that allows you to prepare and cast arcane spells (such as wizard). These spells represent the results of your research, and must be of spell levels you can cast. If you have chosen to specialize in a school of magic, two of the four free spells must be from your specialty school. Add the following to the list of feats you may select as a bonus feat: Combat Casting, Greater Spell Focus, Greater Spell Penetration, Magical Aptitude, Spell Focus, Spell Penetration. Normal: If you are a wizard, you normally gain 2 new spells to add to your spell book each time you gain a level in the wizard class. Derek
_metz_ 05-26-07, 02:22 AM	Geometer really isn't worth it with the current rules on the Glyphs any opinions on what else to plug in there? As for the stats, I am thinking of this for the elf: Gray Elf: Str: 8 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 I insist on usually having at least 14 con with my characters in LG, but this way I can fling orbs/prismatic rays a bit better...
just_be_glad_now 05-26-07, 03:49 AM	I think it is important to think of the dex not as shooting assistance but as additional init and ref saves. That's where you'll notice it 90% or so of the time. That said, I suppose I could suggest taking 4 points total from str and dex and putting 3 into int to bring you to a 19, lots of folks like starting with an odd number so that they can finish even. The other point could go back into str for shadow protection, into wis so you could receive an imbued find traps, or into cha so you can be the prettiest real wizard at the wizard academy with your 9. We could probably be of more help if we could tell what you wished to do with this wizard. The PRCs don't help all that much in that regard. What specialty are you considering? What familiar? just_Be_Glad_now PS: I'd pass on greyhawk method, since wizards can still craft pretty much whatever they need, despite the changes. Money shouldn't be that much of an issue. Quote: "As for the stats, I am thinking of this for the elf: Gray Elf: Str: 8 Dex: 16 Con: 14 Int: 18 Wis: 8 Cha: 8 I insist on usually having at least 14 con with my characters in LG, but this way I can fling orbs/prismatic rays a bit better..."
_metz_ 05-26-07, 04:55 AM	Well I wanted to actually build an extremely versatile wizard, one that whacks out a haste each round as well as producing damage via orbs/fireballs etc. I was thinking of no specialty, which is why I was going Int 20 to make up for that, but I am really not sure. We don't have many wizards in Armidale, and so I am not really sure. Sculpt Spell, Craft Wondrous Item, Quicken and Empower are most probable for feat choices, I just want to be a really Versatile and useful classic wizard. Hence the lore master, good old fashioned bookworm, with full caster progression. I was looking at Frost Mage for a while, lobbing orbs of cold, ice storms, etc as its regional access in Ratik. Still really not sure lol, just asking for people's input on what the "really" helpful or useful wizards they have seen out there have been/what they do.
Timlagor 05-26-07, 05:09 AM	I like my 16/12/20 Wizrd very much thank you :) Divine Oracle is the obvious PrC to put into that list -goes superbly well with Loremaster in every way including when you can get in.
_metz_ 05-26-07, 06:56 AM	hmm... Wiz 6 DO1 Fatespinner 3 (yay spin on saves) Loremaster5 might be a good option.
Maesto 05-26-07, 08:30 AM	Wiz 5/Divine Oracle two is better than Wiz6/Divine Oracle 1 - you get evasion, the same bab, more hitpoints, all for a point of fortitude and reflex saves. Also, Loremaster 6 is a better place to stop than 5 - identify as a standard action at will is REALLY useful: "We loot the badguys. What do they have?" "A bunch of equipment." "No, really, names, activation words, everything - the lot. I wanna know it all!" "Ok, well, that rod is an x..." Yoink! "Next baddy is gonna regret this..."
zoinks69 05-30-07, 04:38 AM	I've also been rolling up wizard options, so I'm with you as far as stat distribution and feats, etc. I'll have to look at the rules for Geometer...I kinda liked the class too. Another one I like is Wayfarer's Guide. You'll have to get access, but 1 level of it is pretty nice -- bumps to D. Door and Teleport (hey...I've been in those situations where the wizard says "sorry, you can't tag along while we warp to full attack range on the monster") I think in the long run it's up to you how many Loremaster you want to take and build from there. Wiz 6 (+1 to all saves is keen)/Wayfarer's Guide 1/DO 2/Fatespinner 4?/Loremaster. I don't have the stats here, but I don't think you have to take Wiz 6 right away, stash it for later when you need those save bumps :)
_metz_ 05-30-07, 10:12 AM	hmm, Loremaster 6 gives +1 saves and BAB and free identify... I think I will go: Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Loremaster6 OR Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Wiz1/Loremaster5 (for saves earlier on) I like wayfarers guide, but you have to get access, and I like a build that doesn't need access. (Any access you get = yay) Its easy with retraining now to change builds if you get access early enough to matter anyways. Feats: 1. Wizard1: Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion) 2. Wizard2: 3. Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Item 4. Wizard4: 5. Wizard5: Empower 6. Divine Oracle1: Sculpt Spell 7. Divine Oracle2: (evasion) 8. Fatespinner1: 9. Fatespinner2: Quicken (fickle finger of fate) 10. Wizard6:: 11. Loremaster1: Maximize Spell 12. Loremaster2: Twin Spell 13. Loremaster3: The lore of true stamina 14. Loremaster4: 15. Loremaster5: knowledge of avoidance Saves: Fort:5, Reflex:5, Will:15 BAB +6 What do people think of the feats?
bitznarf 05-30-07, 12:59 PM	Sculpt Spell requires one other metamagic feat as a pre-requisite; you'll need to swap it with Empower Spell.
_metz_ 05-30-07, 01:01 PM	Sculpt Spell requires one other metamagic feat as a pre-requisite; you'll need to swap it with Empower Spell. Ah yes, good point. Thanks
King Kashue 05-30-07, 10:26 PM	Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20? I take it you want that high of a Int to add to the spells DC and/or skills? Its like your never going to be able to cast lvl 9th spells anyway (since PC are retired at lvl 16 which means the highest yourself can cast is lvl 8 spells.) Yeah, it would be for the spell DCs, and those can never be high enough... And there is the High Level Campaign, so 9th level spells are definitely not a "never gonna see them" situation...
JamesMaissen 05-30-07, 10:45 PM	Well looks like a cookie cutter wizard (mine is alot different and made for role playing) but really a Int of 20? I would assume that's because he can't start with an INT of 21. A wizard can get away with maxing his/her INT score far better than most characters. From the sounds of it the OP has decided that he can do without much in the way of ranged touch spells. It's a choice, but one you will feel with init and REF saves as well. Requesting a special mission or looking to find access to Insightful Reflexes will atleast mitigate the later side effect. It doesn't look like more than one build however. Just a call on whether +2 INT was worth +4 CON. Pick out the PrCs that you are interested in and see how much they cost you, and how much they really deliver. If a class costs you a level of spellcasting then consider it a second time.. then a third time. Geometer is nice, but the skill cost is harsh. The spellglyphs are very nice even if they take far far too long to create out of game. If you are looking to do a bunch of sneaky invis reconnoitering then the silent options make them worthwhile. Make atleast one for emergencies to get you out of grapples and silence spells. But I would go atleast to 3rd level for the searching for certain magical traps. A good number of such builds look at a level of scout or rogue even to both offset the skill pain and to get full trapsense, though I think the introduction of the beguiler class is likely to curtail that. Fatespinner and Loremaster are also good choices as each offers their own strengths. There are a good number of others out there that you might also like. Have you done a fairly exhaustive search and settled on these? -James
Lomiat 05-31-07, 12:09 AM	hmm, Loremaster 6 gives +1 saves and BAB and free identify... I think I will go: Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Loremaster6 OR Wiz5/DO2/Fatespinner2/Wiz1/Loremaster5 (for saves earlier on) I like wayfarers guide, but you have to get access, and I like a build that doesn't need access. (Any access you get = yay) Its easy with retraining now to change builds if you get access early enough to matter anyways. Feats: 1. Wizard1: Skill Focus (Knowledge Religion) 2. Wizard2: 3. Wizard3: Craft Wondrous Item 4. Wizard4: 5. Wizard5: Empower 6. Divine Oracle1: Sculpt Spell 7. Divine Oracle2: (evasion) 8. Fatespinner1: 9. Fatespinner2: Quicken (fickle finger of fate) 10. Wizard6:: 11. Loremaster1: Maximize Spell 12. Loremaster2: Twin Spell 13. Loremaster3: The lore of true stamina 14. Loremaster4: 15. Loremaster5: knowledge of avoidance Saves: Fort:5, Reflex:5, Will:15 BAB +6 What do people think of the feats? Wizards are generally a poor class to play as boom casters. They have so much more versatility than sorcerers and warmages (who get to cast bigger and more frequent boom spells) that reducing a wizard to a series of metamagic feats designed to make booms bigger strikes me as a serious mistake. Furthermore, with your metamagic feats, you'll want to consider how often you'll expect to actually prepare metamagicked spells in your highest slots. 3rd level slots are either: empowered lesser orb of acid OR haste/slow. 4th level slots are either: maximized magic missile or ray of enfeeblement OR Evard's black tentacles, or dimension door. 5th level slots are either: quickened grease, true strike or magic missile OR mass fly, wall of force, or teleport. Of course, that's not the sum total of your options, but you might recognize how unlikely it is that you'll prepare the metamagicked lower-level spells over the bigger ones -- at least until you've gained higher-level spell slots in which to dump your BIG spells and use your second highest-level slots for the metamagic. I'd recommend that you take Empower OR Maximize, not both, and I'd give the edge to Empower. I'd also recommend you wait until 9th level to take it; that way you'll still have your 5th level slots for your big spells, and you can use 4th level slots to Empower Scorching Rays or something. Quicken Spell, similarly, can probably wait until 12th level (I got it at 11th with my Loremaster and didn't make all that much use of it until 12th when I freed up more spell slots). I'd also recommend that you give STRONG consideration to Improved Initiative. I don't have it with my wizard, but I would if I felt compelled to retrain anything. Finally, grab hold to Insightful Reflexes if you gain access. Without access, you might consider putting Lightning Reflexes into the build somewhere. Being able to evade damage is nice; actually having good odds of evading damage is better. (P.S. Twin Spell is a long way down on your list, but I'm not a big fan of it. Split Ray is fantastic for Enervation and Disintegrate.)