Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gaelforcwynd 02-14-07, 04:53 AM	This is another design for a Cleric of Kelanen build. This is a melee build. I wonder if anyone has come up with this idea before. :) Human N Cleric 1 of Kelanen (Travel, War) STR: 14 (+2) - 2 x shortswords DEX: 15 (+2) - buckler, chainmail CON: 14 (+2) - 10 HP + 7 HP/lvl INT: 8 (-1) - 8 ranks to begin + 2 ranks/lvl WIS: 15 (+2) - keep bumping to 18 for bonus 4th lvl spell @ 12th lvl CHA: 8 (-1) - 2 turns/day Concentration: 4 ranks Knowledge(Religion): 4 ranks - (5 ranks @ 2nd lvl for +2 to turning checks) Martial Weapon Proficiency(Shortsword) Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defence Weapon Focus(Shortsword) Detect Magic, Detect Poison, Read Magic Bless, Magic Weapon/Protection from Evil + Magic Weapon So I start off with my buckler, chainmail and shortsword with an AC of 18, +3 attack bonus(+2 STR, +1 Weapon Focus) and +2 damage bonus(+2 STR). At the start of combat, I cast Bless(+1 Morale bonus to attack, +1 Morale bonus to saves), followed by Magic Weapon(+1 Enhancement bonus to attack and damage) on both my shortswords. I then drop my buckler and draw the other shortsword. These effects all last 1 min/lvl or 10 rounds in my case. At this point my AC is still 18 and I have 2 attacks per round, both with +3 to attack (+2 STR, +1 Weapon Focus, +1 Morale, +1 Enhancement) and +4 to damage (+2 STR, +1 Morale, +1 Enhancement). As soon as I make enough money (approx. 620 GP or 620 - 10% if I join a meta-org) I can invest in 2 x Masterwork shortswords, increasing my attack bonus a further +1, though not while using Magic Weapon, as two enhancement bonuses don't stack. But it's all good. If I can't cast Magic Weapon without having to hold the weapon in my hand, I could always take a -1 penalty to attack and damage on one of the shortswords, cast Protection from Evil and gain a +2 deflection bonus to AC vs Evil creatures, immunity to charm/compulsion effects and immunity to attacks by non-Good summoned creatures. This effect also lasts for 10 rounds. True enough, it takes a few rounds to buff, at the expense of the buffing and healing of the party and I couldn't turn to save my life, but having two +3 attacks per round, each dealing 1d6 +4 damage and each threatening to deal 2d6+4 on an 19-20 roll seems kind of cool for a 1st level Cleric in my estimation. :D
awroe 02-14-07, 07:49 AM	Martial Weapon Proficiency(Shortsword) Two Weapon Fighting Two Weapon Defence Weapon Focus(Shortsword) You probably want Improved Buckler Defence instead of Two Weapon Defence - don't need to remove your buckler, and you can make the buckler magic. True enough, it takes a few rounds to buff, at the expense of the buffing and healing of the party and I couldn't turn to save my life, but having two +3 attacks per round, each dealing 1d6 +4 damage and each threatening to deal 2d6+4 on an 19-20 roll seems kind of cool for a 1st level Cleric in my estimation. :D So after three rounds of buffing, you're on par with the first level fighter, except that the fighter has already killed one of the bad guys and is on to the next? The idea isn't a bad one, but you really can't afford that long for buffing. Buy the MW shortswords and ignore the magic weapon spells. Then first round you can cast Bless (good for everyone) and then take a move action to position yourself and draw both weapons.
bhale187 02-14-07, 08:08 AM	I kicked around the idea, but I could not find any way to make it more than a cleric who is a good melee'r at low levels and increasingly subpar melee past level 5. In the end I found LG clerics need every feat they have for divine and crafting.
zoinks69 02-14-07, 08:31 AM	Apart from what has already been said, "you can't have it both ways". Either you are a "battle cleric" (which we'll start seeing more of, I think, now that dmm and dsp are goine) or a "caster cleric". Battle cleric has a good Str score (16+, or some way to boost it quickly - Strength & Destruction domains, for example), decent con, not so much Wis. Caster cleric has more Wis, less (or no) Str. You might get away with 3 rounds of buffs at low levels (poor rolling leads to some long combats when the bad guys are only dishing 1-4 damage usually), but at high levels the combat is over by then. The upshot here is that, in my opinion, two weapon fighting is underpowered (the ability to swing more often is evened out by the penalties imposed, not to mention there are plenty of feats to take). A TWF fighter/ranger has a tough time keeping up damage and they get a ton of bonus feats ;) It's a delicate balance between Power Attack *or* light weapon. On the plus side, clerics can make it work if they roll up the stats right and take into account that they'll be buffing themselves the first round (Bless, Prayer, then later on Divine Power or Righteous Might). I've seen it work previously when DMM Quicken was on the table because those clerics knew they were going to get a buff up (or two as warranted). Now, though, I think you have to make the choice and it all but eliminates a twf cleric from the mix. If there were domains that granted the appropriate feats, you could pull it off. If you could get bonus feats without giving up cleric levels, you could pull it off. You might consider that -- Ranger/Cleric mix, but you obviously give up casting APL-appropriate spells.
kegdrainer 02-14-07, 08:44 AM	For a regular game, I went with a Dwarven Cleric with Strength and War domains dual wielding Dwarven Waraxes. In LG, the closest would be to have make him a Cleric of Gendwar Argrim (Destruction/War domains). It would be much harder since we use point buy, 16/15/14/10/12/6 would work for a 1-level dip before going into fighter. It would be better at higher levels when a bonus to dex is added so you can enlarge with out losing TWF.
Gaelforcwynd 02-14-07, 09:09 AM	You probably want Improved Buckler Defence instead of Two Weapon Defence - don't need to remove your buckler, and you can make the buckler magic. Sounds nice, I'll have to look into that. So after three rounds of buffing, you're on par with the first level fighter, except that the fighter has already killed one of the bad guys and is on to the next? That's their job. Either which way, I'd be sitting back casting Bless, Protection from Evil, Magic Weapon etc. on someone else. But Magic Weapon was just an afterthought to that build. It's not necessary. The idea isn't a bad one, but you really can't afford that long for buffing. Buy the MW shortswords and ignore the magic weapon spells. Then first round you can cast Bless (good for everyone) and then take a move action to position yourself and draw both weapons. I'd be casting all my buffs, then dropping the buckler (a move action?) and drawing the other shortsword (another move action?). Please correct me if I'm wrong. So I'd really be wasting a single round to gain two attacks. Thanks for the feedback.
Gaelforcwynd 02-14-07, 09:14 AM	I kicked around the idea, but I could not find any way to make it more than a cleric who is a good melee'r at low levels and increasingly subpar melee past level 5. In the end I found LG clerics need every feat they have for divine and crafting. So I would miss out on Scribe Scroll and some metamagic feat? What do you mean by crafting? Does Craft Wondrous Item require the Crafting skill? I agree though, I would be spending too much time at higher levels just buffing the party. I don't see that my divine magic really suffers from this build. I could take 12 STR and put the points in WIS or something.
Gaelforcwynd 02-14-07, 09:25 AM	Apart from what has already been said, "you can't have it both ways". Either you are a "battle cleric" (which we'll start seeing more of, I think, now that dmm and dsp are goine) or a "caster cleric". Battle cleric has a good Str score (16+, or some way to boost it quickly - Strength & Destruction domains, for example), decent con, not so much Wis. Caster cleric has more Wis, less (or no) Str. You might get away with 3 rounds of buffs at low levels (poor rolling leads to some long combats when the bad guys are only dishing 1-4 damage usually), but at high levels the combat is over by then. The upshot here is that, in my opinion, two weapon fighting is underpowered (the ability to swing more often is evened out by the penalties imposed, not to mention there are plenty of feats to take). A TWF fighter/ranger has a tough time keeping up damage and they get a ton of bonus feats ;) It's a delicate balance between Power Attack *or* light weapon. On the plus side, clerics can make it work if they roll up the stats right and take into account that they'll be buffing themselves the first round (Bless, Prayer, then later on Divine Power or Righteous Might). I've seen it work previously when DMM Quicken was on the table because those clerics knew they were going to get a buff up (or two as warranted). Now, though, I think you have to make the choice and it all but eliminates a twf cleric from the mix. If there were domains that granted the appropriate feats, you could pull it off. If you could get bonus feats without giving up cleric levels, you could pull it off. You might consider that -- Ranger/Cleric mix, but you obviously give up casting APL-appropriate spells. I wanted to stay a pure Cleric. I don't really know much about splat book feats. Casting-wise I wouldn't miss out on much that keeping maximum ranks in Concentration and bumping WIS wouldn't help. I would take all item creation or metamagic feats from 3rd level onward. I get those four intial melee feats from the War domain and my two Human feats. What I'm really missing out on is skills and turning. I really need to get access to the splat literature to properly plan it out.
Gaelforcwynd 02-14-07, 09:27 AM	For a regular game, I went with a Dwarven Cleric with Strength and War domains dual wielding Dwarven Waraxes. In LG, the closest would be to have make him a Cleric of Gendwar Argrim (Destruction/War domains). It would be much harder since we use point buy, 16/15/14/10/12/6 would work for a 1-level dip before going into fighter. It would be better at higher levels when a bonus to dex is added so you can enlarge with out losing TWF. Are Dwarven War Axes light melee weapons? Using a light melee weapon in your off hand only incurs a -2 penalty to both attacks. I chose STR 14 to offset this and gain +2 to damage. The reason I chose Kelanen is that he has the War domain and you can use any martial blade as a favoured weapon. Seeing as the shortsword is the best light melee blade in the PHB, I chose that. Also, Kelanen's Weapon of the Deity spell is a +1 keen sword, which would increase the threat range on each attack to 17-20.
kegdrainer 02-14-07, 11:04 AM	Are Dwarven War Axes light melee weapons? Using a light melee weapon in your off hand only incurs a -2 penalty to both attacks. I chose STR 14 to offset this and gain +2 to damage. The reason I chose Kelanen is that he has the War domain and you can use any martial blade as a favoured weapon. Seeing as the shortsword is the best light melee blade in the PHB, I chose that. Also, Kelanen's Weapon of the Deity spell is a +1 keen sword, which would increase the threat range on each attack to 17-20. Nope, -4 penality to both. I was trying the idea as a proof of concept. In a home or online game with out limits like LG has, it could be done. The idea was for 2d8+4/2d8+2 while enlarged at first level. It was a one level dip before going into fighter, picking up Quickdraw.
bhale187 02-14-07, 11:28 AM	These all are very useful IMO..............Scribe Scroll, Craft wonderous item, Craft Arms/Armor, Extra Turning, Empower Spell, Augment Healing, Reach Spell, Domain Spontaneity, Maximize Spell So I would miss out on Scribe Scroll and some metamagic feat? What do you mean by crafting? Does Craft Wondrous Item require the Crafting skill? I agree though, I would be spending too much time at higher levels just buffing the party. I don't see that my divine magic really suffers from this build. I could take 12 STR and put the points in WIS or something.
Alpha_Nerd 02-14-07, 12:14 PM	I think this build would work fine, although I'd dip for 3 levels of pious templar. Weapon Spec allows for Melee Weapon Mastery, which is a beating when you TWF. The TWF cleric I tried to make worshiped Joramy and had the War domain with a quarterstaff. The plan was to toss on a Brambles and go nuts.
UMiskatonic 02-14-07, 12:52 PM	TWF won't work as well as a greatsword. Don't do it. 1) Damage on the greatsword is the same, 2d6 + 3/2 (str), except you don't have -2 to hit. 2) You can power attack. 3) You can cast spells, which you can't do when you have something in each hand. 4) It costs half as much to have one magic weapon 5) You shave a round off of your prep time, which is HUGE.
copper_wyrmling 02-14-07, 01:00 PM	Don't do it - or do it if you want, but accept that you will almost always be inferior to a two-handed-power-attacking battle cleric. Clerics are a strong enough class that you'll still contribute just fine, but it's not going to be an optimized build. (My L15 cleric of Joramy two-weapon-fights with a staff, and has done so since L1. I speak from experience here. She does okay - she can quicken brambles and cast divine power in the round when she moves in - but it takes something like zealot pact or fires of purity to kick her melee damage from "decent for the APL" up to "impressive for the APL".)
clannagh 02-14-07, 05:35 PM	TWF works well at lower levels but gets less effective at higher APL's. Like Cleave and Great Cleave .. TWF is a good candidate for taking early on and then swapping out with a retrain once you level a bit.
bhale187 02-14-07, 08:43 PM	TWF works well at lower levels but gets less effective at higher APL's. Like Cleave and Great Cleave .. TWF is a good candidate for taking early on and then swapping out with a retrain once you level a bit. It's kind of scary to think about how many people are going to start cheesing the retrains now that they are official LGCS.
Gaelforcwynd 02-15-07, 04:49 AM	These all are very useful IMO..............Scribe Scroll, Craft wonderous item, Craft Arms/Armor, Extra Turning, Empower Spell, Augment Healing, Reach Spell, Domain Spontaneity, Maximize Spell Another idea I had was to drop Two Weapon Defence at 1st level, change STR to 8 or 10, DEX to 16 or INT/CHA to 10 and Take Scribe Scroll or Extra Turning. Then at 3rd level take Weapon Finesse, but lose any damage modifier. But of course then I'm missing out on Craft Wondrous Items/Domain Spontaneity, which are really too good to forfeit. :(
Nutation 02-15-07, 02:06 PM	Another idea I had was to drop Two Weapon Defence at 1st level, change STR to 8 or 10, DEX to 16 or INT/CHA to 10 and Take Scribe Scroll or Extra Turning. Then at 3rd level take Weapon Finesse, but lose any damage modifier. You have to be able to do damage. Str modifier, Power Attack, and sneak attack are the usual methods. If you don't have any of those, there's no point.
Gaelforcwynd 02-16-07, 07:09 AM	TWF won't work as well as a greatsword. Don't do it. 1) Damage on the greatsword is the same, 2d6 + 3/2 (str), except you don't have -2 to hit. 2) You can power attack. 3) You can cast spells, which you can't do when you have something in each hand. 4) It costs half as much to have one magic weapon 5) You shave a round off of your prep time, which is HUGE. That's interesting, seeing as a Cleric of Kelanen could take Martial Weapon Proficiency(greatsword) and Weapon Focus(greatsword) at 1st level. Does Two Weapon Fighting give you any bonuses to weilding a greatsword? Do you just lose the shield bonus the buckler provides while wielding the greatsword or are there further penalties? It's fine for me to forfeit the +1 AC bonus that a buckler provides in order to dish out more melee damage and be able to cast spells without incurring action penalties. It doesn't take a move action to let go of a greatsword with one hand does it? Would Two Weapon Defence negate any
Alpha_Nerd 02-16-07, 11:36 AM	You can use a hand with a Buckler to cast a spell, and you can hold a greatsword in one hand while you cast, giving you a free hand if you need it.
Gaelforcwynd 02-16-07, 11:44 AM	You can use a hand with a Buckler to cast a spell, and you can hold a greatsword in one hand while you cast, giving you a free hand if you need it. Does using a buckler while wielding a greatsword incur attack penalties or do you just lose the shield bonus?
LachlarlanIII 02-16-07, 11:47 AM	Does using a buckler while wielding a greatsword incur attack penalties or do you just lose the shield bonus? Unless you have Improved Buckler Defense, you lose the Shield bonus to AC if you attack with a weapon in the hand with the buckler. In any case, you take a -1 penalty to attacks if you attack with a weapon in any hand holding a buckler.
Gaelforcwynd 02-16-07, 12:14 PM	Unless you have Improved Buckler Defense, you lose the Shield bonus to AC if you attack with a weapon in the hand with the buckler. In any case, you take a -1 penalty to attacks if you attack with a weapon in any hand holding a buckler. Ok thanks for clarifying.