Two weapon fighting with a Shield ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Two weapon fighting with a Shield ? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kelios_Lyonsmane
03-16-07, 12:56 PM I'm planing to play a W.Elf Warrior with these stats :
Str : 16
Dex :16
Con :12
Int : 10
Wis :10
Cha: 8
I wanted to make him a TWF Specialist but i was wondering what is better for TWF , Longsword and shield with improuved shield bash ( and oversise TWF for Large shield ) or 2 longswords with oversise TWF and TW defence . With the shield i would get a better AC ( with enchantments ) but 2 swords would do more damage ...
I would apreciate any comment on build tips .
Jay_Ibero_911
03-16-07, 01:12 PM I'm planing to play a W.Elf Warrior with these stats :
Str : 16
Dex :16
Con :12
Int : 10
Wis :10
Cha: 8
I wanted to make him a TWF Specialist but i was wondering what is better for TWF , Longsword and shield with improuved shield bash ( and oversise TWF for Large shield ) or 2 longswords with oversise TWF and TW defence . With the shield i would get a better AC ( with enchantments ) but 2 swords would do more damage ...
I would apreciate any comment on build tips .

Or you could do Spiked Heavy Shield as your primary weapon, use a light off hand weapon, and take Phalanx Fighting for an AC boost.
Eric Anondson
03-16-07, 01:30 PM Or you could do Spiked Heavy Shield as your primary weapon, use a light off hand weapon, and take Phalanx Fighting for an AC boost.Indeed. I have a character with a spiked heavy shield of bashing as his primary weapon. A one-hand weapon that does 2d6 points of damage. His off-hand weapon is his open hand.

With two ex-monk levels with Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist and a fighter bonus feat Withering Strike to deal –6 Str with no save, plus a warrior class that allows spellcasting requiring an open hand (holy liberator), his off hand weapon is quite a utility.
jstorrie
03-16-07, 03:25 PM If you take Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2) you don't need the high Dex for TWF. This makes the best shield fighter probably a dwarf, because you can dump Dex altogether and do a Deepwarden dip for massive defense potential. You could mix Dwarven Defender in there as well, but I think it's a trap - two prereq feats that aren't that good, plus the necessity of a 13 Dodge, is not going to be better than just going Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1-4 / Deepwarden 1-2 / Fighter 5+.
Alpha_Nerd
03-16-07, 03:33 PM The problem is agile shield fighter doesn't give you seconday or tertiary off-hand attacks.
jstorrie
03-16-07, 04:33 PM I don't think that's a particularly huge problem, given that short of taking Ranger levels you'd need to put a large number of build points into Dex for ITWF/GTWF. More than you'd likely want to. If your Dex is that high, why not take Weapon Finesse? And if using Weapon Finesse, why use a non-finessable shield? If your Str is high enough that you're not Finessing, how many points should you really have allocated to Con and mental stats?
Alpha_Nerd
03-16-07, 04:59 PM You only need a 14 dex. Pick up agile shield fighter. Once you can get +4 Dex gloves retrain Agile Shield Fighter into TWF and pick up ITWF, and once you get +6 DEX gloves take GTWF.
jstorrie
03-16-07, 05:16 PM So ITWF at 9, and GWTF at 12? I think by then that there are significantly better feat choices for most martial characters, especially with the PHBII stuff now open.
Munkwunk
03-16-07, 06:56 PM Indeed. I have a character with a spiked heavy shield of bashing as his primary weapon. A one-hand weapon that does 2d6 points of damage. His off-hand weapon is his open hand.

With two ex-monk levels with Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist and a fighter bonus feat Withering Strike to deal –6 Str with no save, plus a warrior class that allows spellcasting requiring an open hand (holy liberator), his off hand weapon is quite a utility.
I <3.

I play a character in a home game that uses Agile Shield Defense, and I understand the concern about having a limited number of off-hand attacks. What matters most is your character's focus; if you want to be a high-damage TWF fighter, you're much better off getting the actual TWF feats so you can swing a few extra times (this is especially true once you start throwing on energy damage and Righteous Wrath/Inspire Courage bonuses to damage-per-hit). However, if you want to be an effective sword-and-bard fighter who has a focus on defense/utility, rather than maximum damage potential, grabbing Agile Shield Fighter for the extra attack and leaving it at that isn't a bad thing.

If you go the ASF route, you need to make good use of that shield. Grab a few levels of Knight maybe, definitely throw on the Shield Ward feat, and enchant the shield's AC bonus before your armor bonus. +8/+9 to your touch AC in addition to grabbing a spare off-hand attack certainly doesn't hurt, does it?

Either option works well, depending on what you want to do with it. I'd certainly recommend sword-and-board before I would recommend two swords though; you simply have better options when using a shield, IMO.
Gaelforcwynd
03-17-07, 12:51 PM You could use a rapier or scimitar for a higher critical threat, seeing as you will be suffering attack penalties. Later you can take Improved Critical and Power Critical if you want to threaten on a 15-20 and gain a +4 on confirming. If you like this idea, then don't worry about STR and start with DEX 16 or higher and take Weapon Finesse. This will help your AC too. A high STR is good for offsetting the TWF penalties.

Perhaps you could play Human and start off as with a level Cleric of Kelanen, get free Martial Weapon proficiency with any martial sword (longsword, scimitar etc.), Weapon Focus with that weapon (free +1 to attack), then choose two other feats, like Improved Buckler Defence, TWD or TWF. Then you can take a level of Fighter at CL2.
Kelios_Lyonsmane
03-18-07, 01:03 AM I just thought of a weapon to use : Elven Thin Blade i would need a Exotic weapon feat but for a 1d8 18-20/x2 crits and weapon finess eligible ... dosent get any better then this ! :cheer:

ty all for the input :D
Gaelforcwynd
03-18-07, 07:18 AM I just thought of a weapon to use : Elven Thin Blade i would need a Exotic weapon feat but for a 1d8 18-20/2 crits and weapon finess eligible ... dosent get any better then this ! :cheer:

ty all for the input :D

What do you mean by Weapon Finess eligible? Are some weapons ineligible for use with that feat?
Maesto
03-18-07, 10:24 AM They have to be light weapons to be able to use weapon finesse with them. There are some exceptions; these are noted in the weapon's description. Notable ones are elven x-blades, most (all?) of which are finessable, and the spiked chain and rapier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-16-07, 12:56 PM	I'm planing to play a W.Elf Warrior with these stats : Str : 16 Dex :16 Con :12 Int : 10 Wis :10 Cha: 8 I wanted to make him a TWF Specialist but i was wondering what is better for TWF , Longsword and shield with improuved shield bash ( and oversise TWF for Large shield ) or 2 longswords with oversise TWF and TW defence . With the shield i would get a better AC ( with enchantments ) but 2 swords would do more damage ... I would apreciate any comment on build tips .
Jay_Ibero_911 03-16-07, 01:12 PM	I'm planing to play a W.Elf Warrior with these stats : Str : 16 Dex :16 Con :12 Int : 10 Wis :10 Cha: 8 I wanted to make him a TWF Specialist but i was wondering what is better for TWF , Longsword and shield with improuved shield bash ( and oversise TWF for Large shield ) or 2 longswords with oversise TWF and TW defence . With the shield i would get a better AC ( with enchantments ) but 2 swords would do more damage ... I would apreciate any comment on build tips . Or you could do Spiked Heavy Shield as your primary weapon, use a light off hand weapon, and take Phalanx Fighting for an AC boost.
Eric Anondson 03-16-07, 01:30 PM	Or you could do Spiked Heavy Shield as your primary weapon, use a light off hand weapon, and take Phalanx Fighting for an AC boost.Indeed. I have a character with a spiked heavy shield of bashing as his primary weapon. A one-hand weapon that does 2d6 points of damage. His off-hand weapon is his open hand. With two ex-monk levels with Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist and a fighter bonus feat Withering Strike to deal –6 Str with no save, plus a warrior class that allows spellcasting requiring an open hand (holy liberator), his off hand weapon is quite a utility.
jstorrie 03-16-07, 03:25 PM	If you take Agile Shield Fighter (PHB2) you don't need the high Dex for TWF. This makes the best shield fighter probably a dwarf, because you can dump Dex altogether and do a Deepwarden dip for massive defense potential. You could mix Dwarven Defender in there as well, but I think it's a trap - two prereq feats that aren't that good, plus the necessity of a 13 Dodge, is not going to be better than just going Barbarian 1 / Fighter 1-4 / Deepwarden 1-2 / Fighter 5+.
Alpha_Nerd 03-16-07, 03:33 PM	The problem is agile shield fighter doesn't give you seconday or tertiary off-hand attacks.
jstorrie 03-16-07, 04:33 PM	I don't think that's a particularly huge problem, given that short of taking Ranger levels you'd need to put a large number of build points into Dex for ITWF/GTWF. More than you'd likely want to. If your Dex is that high, why not take Weapon Finesse? And if using Weapon Finesse, why use a non-finessable shield? If your Str is high enough that you're not Finessing, how many points should you really have allocated to Con and mental stats?
Alpha_Nerd 03-16-07, 04:59 PM	You only need a 14 dex. Pick up agile shield fighter. Once you can get +4 Dex gloves retrain Agile Shield Fighter into TWF and pick up ITWF, and once you get +6 DEX gloves take GTWF.
jstorrie 03-16-07, 05:16 PM	So ITWF at 9, and GWTF at 12? I think by then that there are significantly better feat choices for most martial characters, especially with the PHBII stuff now open.
Munkwunk 03-16-07, 06:56 PM	Indeed. I have a character with a spiked heavy shield of bashing as his primary weapon. A one-hand weapon that does 2d6 points of damage. His off-hand weapon is his open hand. With two ex-monk levels with Improved Unarmed Strike, Deflect Arrows, and Stunning Fist and a fighter bonus feat Withering Strike to deal –6 Str with no save, plus a warrior class that allows spellcasting requiring an open hand (holy liberator), his off hand weapon is quite a utility. I <3. I play a character in a home game that uses Agile Shield Defense, and I understand the concern about having a limited number of off-hand attacks. What matters most is your character's focus; if you want to be a high-damage TWF fighter, you're much better off getting the actual TWF feats so you can swing a few extra times (this is especially true once you start throwing on energy damage and Righteous Wrath/Inspire Courage bonuses to damage-per-hit). However, if you want to be an effective sword-and-bard fighter who has a focus on defense/utility, rather than maximum damage potential, grabbing Agile Shield Fighter for the extra attack and leaving it at that isn't a bad thing. If you go the ASF route, you need to make good use of that shield. Grab a few levels of Knight maybe, definitely throw on the Shield Ward feat, and enchant the shield's AC bonus before your armor bonus. +8/+9 to your touch AC in addition to grabbing a spare off-hand attack certainly doesn't hurt, does it? Either option works well, depending on what you want to do with it. I'd certainly recommend sword-and-board before I would recommend two swords though; you simply have better options when using a shield, IMO.
Gaelforcwynd 03-17-07, 12:51 PM	You could use a rapier or scimitar for a higher critical threat, seeing as you will be suffering attack penalties. Later you can take Improved Critical and Power Critical if you want to threaten on a 15-20 and gain a +4 on confirming. If you like this idea, then don't worry about STR and start with DEX 16 or higher and take Weapon Finesse. This will help your AC too. A high STR is good for offsetting the TWF penalties. Perhaps you could play Human and start off as with a level Cleric of Kelanen, get free Martial Weapon proficiency with any martial sword (longsword, scimitar etc.), Weapon Focus with that weapon (free +1 to attack), then choose two other feats, like Improved Buckler Defence, TWD or TWF. Then you can take a level of Fighter at CL2.
Kelios_Lyonsmane 03-18-07, 01:03 AM	I just thought of a weapon to use : Elven Thin Blade i would need a Exotic weapon feat but for a 1d8 18-20/x2 crits and weapon finess eligible ... dosent get any better then this ! :cheer: ty all for the input :D
Gaelforcwynd 03-18-07, 07:18 AM	I just thought of a weapon to use : Elven Thin Blade i would need a Exotic weapon feat but for a 1d8 18-20/2 crits and weapon finess eligible ... dosent get any better then this ! :cheer: ty all for the input :D What do you mean by Weapon Finess eligible? Are some weapons ineligible for use with that feat?
Maesto 03-18-07, 10:24 AM	They have to be light weapons to be able to use weapon finesse with them. There are some exceptions; these are noted in the weapon's description. Notable ones are elven x-blades, most (all?) of which are finessable, and the spiked chain and rapier.