Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jay_Ibero_911 10-27-06, 01:08 AM	I've got a skeleton of a build for an insanely high diplomacy build. I just can't seem to flesh it out.... Here's what I got so far: Race:Half Elf Alignment: NG (Rao, Community+Mind) STR-12 (4) DEX-12 (4) CON-12 (4) INT-10 (2) WIS-12 (4) CHA-16 (10) Lv1(Marshal)Negotiator, Skill Focus(Diplomacy) Lv2(Marshal) Lv3(Cleric)Complimentary Insight (RoD) Lv4()+1 CHA Lv5() Lv6()Sociable Personality (RoD) By level 6, without any equipment, you can pull off a skill check of: 9 ranks +9 synergies, +3 charisma, +3 aura, +3 skill focus, +4 domains, +2 negotiator, +2 racial=+35 Diplomacy modifier, and the ability to re-roll any diplomacy or gather info checks. You are one smooth talker at that point, now if only Evangelist was core in LG....The only problem is the character can do almost nothing else but talk...so I don't know what to do with the rest of the levels....
paigeoliver 10-27-06, 01:33 AM	It can be done much higher than that. But it really isn't much fun in play. One of my good friends has a Diplomonkey character. It frustrates the gamemasters, it frustrates the other players, and those characters are often a huge liability whenever they aren't trying to turn someone to friendly. It is terribly easy to get the +20 or so that a great diplomat needs, but shooting for the 30 and 40 makes you way too much of a one trick pony with a trick that not a lot of people are terribly fond of. There isn't a lot of reason to chase down feats and single level dips in 3/4 BAB classes just to get teeny boosts to diplomacy since you can get enough to autopass most diplomacy checks without even multiclassing. Simple 18 Charisma marshall (not even a half elf, and with no feats invested), has a dipomacy of +15 at first level. By second level your synergies turn that to +22. By 6th level (cloak of charisma +2) you are at +28. +28 means hostile to friendly on an average roll and you can use that campaign card that lets you do rushed diplomacy without taking the penalty. Just building a straight maximum charisma marshall is nearly as good as trying to MAX OUT diplomacy, except that it also creates a much more useful character.
Maesto 10-27-06, 01:46 AM	I've got a similar character. You seem to have picked up most of the bonuses that you can get by that stage, although there's a few more tidbits still to come. Circlet of persuasion will boost all of you charisma based skills; if you have enough cleric levels and craft wonderous item, you can make that one. Get a charisma boosting cloak (or craft it) for another +2 effectively. A prestige class that's just funny is exemplar; you can add 4 to diplomacy if you like (although it doesn't stack with the circlet), and you can always take ten, which would work well with your reroll ability. Another prestige class that synergises well with the talking based skills is church inquisitor, which gives you cute abilities, along with enough skillpoints to max all of the skills, and also gives you the inquisition domain, which means that you are one mean character with your dispel magics =) I haven't gone quite so deeply into the diplomacy; it's just such an easy skill to get to very high levels that it really doesn't matter what your number is. Other skills, such as gather info, bluff, intimidate, and sense motive are also important. You may be a smooth speaker, but you may also be spoken quite smoothly to =) My diplomat is a pacifist (shock horror!), and so I decided that the best way to make such a concept work is to go cleric, so that you can also do healing stuffs, and not just talk. You need to have some use in combat, after all. Augment healing is another good feat to have, and divine spell power is funny; you can always boost your caster level by 4 by about 10th level, because your bonus to the turn check is ridiculously high. Practised spellcaster also helps. If you can pull it off, try to get into the contemplative prestige class, and take the good domain, so that you can craft the strand of prayer beads and get a bead of karma. This basically allows you to pull off CL 20 all-day buffs by level 12. The extend spell feat also helps. If you take church inquisitor levels, despite the stupidity of it, you qualify for arcane mastery, which will let you take 10 on your caster level checks whenever you like (see errata). This means that you basically don't have to worry about SR anymore, and it also means that you can take 10 on dispel magic checks. Which is effectively taking 14, from the inquisition domain. This is usually enough to counterspell anything in your APL range, or to dispel anything that's not meant to not go away. Even then, with Divine spellpower, you should be able to dispel anything that can be dispelled, getting 31 on all greater dispel magic checks by level 13, which will dispel caster level 20 spells. Note, I am NOT going down this path, because I think it's stupid and broken and wrong. A warning though, talking down a combat with smooth roleplay and a high skill modifier will often lead to missing out on access and gold =( I've had it happen to me in a mod where most of the access and gold was on somebody who could be talked out of fighting. Cheers, Jolyon
Japangirl 10-27-06, 02:58 AM	Female Half-elf (Rhenee) Bard 14/Mindbender 1 or Bard 13/Mindbender 1/Marshal 1 Str: 9 Dex: 10 Con: 14 Int: 14 Wis: 8 Cha: 17 Bump Charisma three times. My diplomatic master is a half-elf bard. Better skills, and more stuff to do in combat and out of it. Maxed out diplomacy, of course, but also maxed bluff, gather information, and sense motive. I'm only level 3, but I have Skill Focus (Diplomacy) and Sociable Personality. Negotiator isn't worth it IMO, there are so many other things to do with feats. I'm hoping certain bard feats from Complete Mage are allowed (casting spells while maintaining a bardic music effect!!!) and even if not, Spell Focus (Enchantment) is really useful. I was planning on Complementary Insight but I'm not sure that's worth it either. Already, +22 gets me almost anything diplomatic I want done. The cheesy bit of the build is the dip into Mindbender for telepathy, but it's not a new cheese so not worth bringing up on the boards as ZOMG MY NEW BUILD IS COOL. I may take a level of marshal at some point to motivate dex, and I will definitely have a cohort who is a marshal or paladin/marshal. I have not yet decided if it's worth losing a caster level. Another feat to consider, if it's allowed, is the one from PHB2 (book isn't in front of me, forget the name) that allows you to use your Diplomacy to oppose a Bluff check. You make a Sense Motive roll as normal, and if you determine that the person is lying and talk to them for about a minute, you can make an opposed Diplomacy roll (your Diplomacy, their Bluff) to have them inadvertantly tell you the truth and why they were lying.
Lomiat 10-27-06, 08:20 AM	Marshall 2/Clr X with the Marshall CHA aura will do well with diplomacy, also. Marsahll 2 gives the synergy bonuses, and by 5th level, this character can prepare Divine Insight to gain the bonus as an immediate action for the *really* ridiculous bonuses.
Mommy was an Orc 10-27-06, 09:13 AM	My primary is a Bard 9/Marshal 1/Sublime Chord 5 build who motivates Charisma. One of the things to remember about that specific aura is that you likely push all the other characters into the range where they can make Aid Another attempts nearly automatically. At which point you can get a +10 bonus to your checks - I was in a mod where the DM told us only rolling a 60 would do anything and we had to do it 5 times. I made the check 3 times at 8th level and I only have 5 ranks in Diplomacy...
jstorrie 11-01-06, 04:20 PM	My main is a Paladin 4 / Marshal 2 / Fighter 2 / Divine Crusader X with a Charisma focus. Theoretically speaking you could be a Divine Crusader of Bahamut here, for Voice of the Dragon (+10 Diplomacy among other benefits, 10m/level), getting you pretty stratospheric Diplomacy at CL12 and beyond (Cha + motivate Cha + 10 + ranks + synergy + items + aid.) Motivate Charisma is, as Mommy has pointed out, essential for most Diplomacy builds as it allows your entire party to aid every time.
JamesMaissen 11-01-06, 05:14 PM	My primary is a Bard 9/Marshal 1/Sublime Chord 5 build who motivates Charisma. One of the things to remember about that specific aura is that you likely push all the other characters into the range where they can make Aid Another attempts nearly automatically. At which point you can get a +10 bonus to your checks - I was in a mod where the DM told us only rolling a 60 would do anything and we had to do it 5 times. I made the check 3 times at 8th level and I only have 5 ranks in Diplomacy... I'm curious here about the usefulness that people see in motivate CHA, especially at high levels. It seems most likely to be done in a selfbuffing sort of way, which I can understand as encouraged by LG setup. However the strength of the Marshal is it's ability to boost the entire party rather than just the individual, most of all the individual that paid a level to do so. Would not something like motivate dexterity be a better use even if it is perhaps overdone? -James
_m_ 11-01-06, 05:23 PM	I'm curious here about the usefulness that people see in motivate CHA, especially at high levels. It seems most likely to be done in a selfbuffing sort of way, which I can understand as encouraged by LG setup. However the strength of the Marshal is it's ability to boost the entire party rather than just the individual, most of all the individual that paid a level to do so. Would not something like motivate dexterity be a better use even if it is perhaps overdone? -James perhaps... but what use is dexterity when its a non combat diplomacy encounter? i mean sure, you're VERY unlikely to randomly fall over... but the guards still might not let you into the city :D
paigeoliver 11-01-06, 11:51 PM	And what use is motivate charisma when all your charisma skills are already at +20? Wow, my diplomacy WAS +28 but NOW it is +32. Or why not take 3 levels of Marshall minimum so you can have several different auras.
_m_ 11-01-06, 11:55 PM	hey, what are you asking me for? i dont play marshals. i was jsut saying, that you may as well use motivate charisma if your diplomating, because the dix aint alot of help in said situation.... meany :weep:
RedKnightofKet 11-02-06, 12:21 AM	There, there, m, come cry on my shoulder. To answer the question, though, sometimes there are situations where you need to hit a ridiculously high DC. You'd be surprised how much impact a few points can make.
Lomiat 11-02-06, 02:54 AM	I've got a Bard 3 who's going Marshall next level, and I've debated the Motivate Dexterity and Motivate Charisma auras for a lengthy period of time. Initially, I intended to take Motivate Dexterity for the ridiculously high Init for myself and my party, getting to buff everyone with bard song before the baddies went, but lately I've decided I'm most likely going to take Motivate Charisma. This is primarily because my bard is a UMD guy. He took Skill Focus (UMD) at first level, but now by 3rd level (with a +3 CHA), he's still only at +12 (14 for scrolls). That's decent, but it still leaves too much room for bad rolling. Since UMD is his schtick, I'd like to eliminate much of the room for chance. I know that if I just kept putting ranks in the skill, he'd auto-pass all his checks by something like 8th level, but that leaves 5 more levels that I'd have to risk iffy chances! I'm not a fan of playing half my character's career running subpar for his main schtick. Meanwhile, for the bard, Motivate Charisma does some scary things. In addition to making him a nasty Diplomancer, it allows him to almost automatically Countersong at APL or one above. The Perform check is the DC for Fascinate as well, and if (for example) someone had a cert from a metaorg that doubled the amount of gold you could make from your bardic performances, you might be able to start making some significant cash from singing, orating, playing the fiddle, etc. Also, it doesn't hurt for Clerics to get the Marshall's Charisma bonus as a bonus to all their turn checks. (Or the Sublime Chord to take the doubled CHA to his/her Perform / caster level check.)
Sieylianna 11-02-06, 08:10 AM	Meanwhile, for the bard, Motivate Charisma does some scary things. In addition to making him a nasty Diplomancer, it allows him to almost automatically Countersong at APL or one above. The Perform check is the DC for Fascinate as well, and if (for example) someone had a cert from a metaorg that doubled the amount of gold you could make from your bardic performances, you might be able to start making some significant cash from singing, orating, playing the fiddle, etc. None of which has any practical value in LG. I see a "diplomonster" last weekend who couldn't understand why the bad guy didn't succumb to his 50+ Diplomacy after the party's half-orc barbarian cut his buddy in two during negotiations. I'd say diplomacy comes into play in maybe 10% of the modules (your region may vary) and most of these can be handled by a PC with Diplomacy as a maxed out class skill (paladin, bard, rogue, cleric, druid, favored soul, etc). Every single module has combat. Ed
Japangirl 11-02-06, 12:57 PM	That's why bards are useful overall as well in combat :) We sing and dance and make you all feel happy. As a level 3 character I had to make multiple DC 35 Diplomacy checks in order to successfully complete a module. I'd like to look at my character sheet and neglect to roll a die (take 1, effectively), which takes some doing. Sure, it's not useful all the time. But when you need a face, you NEED a face. So why not make the face the face-iest character you can? Besides, Bluff, Gather Information, and Sense Motive are all useful skills in general as well as being part of the face skill list.
jstorrie 11-02-06, 01:28 PM	If you were only going to dip two levels of Marshal, not three, then no, I wouldn't take Motivate Charisma over something like Force of Will. For Marshal-focused faces it is very good, though.
_m_ 11-02-06, 05:00 PM	There, there, m, come cry on my shoulder. To answer the question, though, sometimes there are situations where you need to hit a ridiculously high DC. You'd be surprised how much impact a few points can make. :weep: :raincloud
paigeoliver 11-02-06, 10:12 PM	I have a dedicated Marshal character (6th level), who isn't a half-elf, doesn't have motivate charisma, hasn't spent any feats on diplomacy (other than the bonus one all marshals get), and only has the bluff synergy. In 6 levels I have never failed a diplomacy check, a bluff check, a disguise check, an intimidate check,a handle animal check, or a perform check. Once you have motivate dex or motivate wisdom (but not both) and a combat aura (I chose art of war), the next best aura is Motivate Intelligence, which I also have. It pushes those knowledge skills through the roof for the whole party. It is nice to be able to have one rank in each knowledge skill and still be rolling at +8. Meanwhile you'll boost anyone in your party who actually dedicated themselves to a knowledge skill all the way over the top. The reason you don't take both motivate dex and motivate wisdom is because they are both essentially "we go first" auras. Either boosting dex to roll high init, or boosting spot and listen to avoid surprise. You can't have them both up at once, so the second one is wasted. Taking more than one combat aura is equally a waste since you can't have more than one of those up at a time either. Although if you are going to 7th level+ then you can take more combat auras as the other "motivate" auras aren't as useful. I'll retire at Fighter 1/Marshall 14, and I won't be taking Motivate Charisma until my 12th Marshall level (6th aura), as that is about where I rank that one on the aura list.
_m_ 11-02-06, 10:28 PM	if you rank it so low on the list... why dont you stop being a marshal a little earlier...
paigeoliver 11-02-06, 10:35 PM	Marshall is a great class, I just see the motivate charisma as not all that important. I may never take it at all, I may take the overcoming SR one instead, it depends on how much SR I start seeing at the higher APLs.
Lomiat 11-03-06, 01:16 AM	None of which has any practical value in LG. <snip> I'd say diplomacy comes into play in maybe 10% of the modules (your region may vary) and most of these can be handled by a PC with Diplomacy as a maxed out class skill (paladin, bard, rogue, cleric, druid, favored soul, etc). Every single module has combat. Ed Perform isn't a "useful" skill in LG unless you're a bard, but when you *are* a bard, it's nice to be able to countersong to automatically get your companions to make every single Will save against sonic effects. With max ranks in Perform as a half-elf bard with a 16 CHA, my bard still only has a 9 Perform. This is far, far too chancy for countersong for my tastes because I have a tendency to roll single digits, and my dice are particularly fond of the numbers 1 - 5. In other words, it's possible that my countersong could fail to outpace the sonic effects I intend it to counter. That's simply not acceptable. And while, yes, it's possible to roll high in every module and have your +4 CHA human marshall succeed on every Gather Information check in every module, there's always the chance that those Gather Information check DCs of 30 and 35 might provide you with some useful tidbits. While your characters of 8th level and above might make those checks without the Motivate Charisma aura, your characters of 4th level or thereabouts are unlikely to meet with the same success. Yes, there's combat in every LG mod, but not every character is designed primarily to shine in combat. Otherwise, there would be no "face" character terminology on these boards. Some characters are meant primarily to roleplay through modules, even if they're played by players who know how to optimize their combat utility. And for that matter... I know it's been discussed before, but I once again spoke to the player whose bard/marshall earns roughly 500 gp per mod due to his Perform checks. Due to metaorg benefits and a +32 base Perform and the option to perform multiple times if he gets high enough DCs (which he always does), that money's putting him WELL ahead of the curve. And THAT is a powerful use of the Motivate Charisma aura.
paigeoliver 11-03-06, 02:58 AM	There will always be an argument that can be made for building your character around any one thing, and putting everything into it, but in almost every case you can build a character that is vastly more functional overall by simply chopping a teeny bit off that thing you are trying to max out. In general when I comes to Marshall auras I think Motivate Charisma is far overrated. But, lets say you really want to be good at the social skills, so you go ahead and take it anyway. Unfortunately I often see that combined with half-elf race and every single feat put towards boosts in diplomacy, usually severely multiclassed in 3/4 BAB classes for various bits that boost to it. It results in a character who can't do anything other than charisma skills. One secret about the big diplomacy that most people are forgetting is the fact that they are wasting their feats incorrectly. Every diplomonster I have seen has been a half-elf bard-marshall (often cleric and ranger as well) with 100 percent of their feats wrapped up in things that give tiny boosts to their diplomacy. Usually Negotiator, Complementary Insight, and Sociable Personality, which every feat they have from 1 to 6. That costs 3 feats for a +5 and the possibility of a reroll. Diplomonsters are always burning through that -10 rushed diplomacy penalty though. They are better off just taking improved initiative and bringing a fast talker campaign card instead. Here is MY diplomacy build. Beats the diplomonsters on the all important "rushed diplomacy checks", yet it can actually fight as well. Race Human. STR 14, DEX 8, CON 11, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 17 (bump 4, 8, and 12), your first magic item is a cloak of charisma, so you will have 20 at level 4. Buy some STR gloves around level 7. Level 1 Marshall, Dex aura, Skill Focus Diplomacy, Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise. Diplomacy is a paltry +10 at this level. You have dex aura because you don't have those diplomacy rolls down yet, so you might as well stay alive until you do. Take a fast talker campaign card, take more of them as you gain in level. Level 2 Marshall. You get your synergies now, so your diplomacy is at +14 Level 3 Marshall, Charisma Aura, Improved Trip. Diplomacy is at +18 Level 4 Marshall, Charisma hits 20, Diplomacy is at +26. Hostile to friendly on an average roll with a rushed check using your campaign card. Your friends can all use their actions to aid you (you are giving them all +5). You should get at least 3 aids, meaning you need to roll a whopping 3 on the die. If all the aids go off you won't even have to roll. Level 5 Marshall. Diplomacy +27. Take the art of war aura. In addition to being a diplomonster you are also a wicked trip fighter now with +11 to your trip check, which is a lot better than most trip specialists. Keep pumping your social skills after this, even cross class. Level 6 Fighter, exotic weapon proficiency and focus with an exotic tripping weapon. Level 7 Barbarian. Buy some STR gloves. Level 8 Fighter, Power attack. Level 9 Exotic weapon master. Take the trip trick, and improved disarm. Your trip check is now at +16 while raging and your diplomacy is at +30. You are fully prepared for both negotiations and aggressive negotiations.
Sieylianna 11-03-06, 07:42 AM	Perform isn't a "useful" skill in LG unless you're a bard, but when you *are* a bard, it's nice to be able to countersong to automatically get your companions to make every single Will save against sonic effects. With max ranks in Perform as a half-elf bard with a 16 CHA, my bard still only has a 9 Perform. This is far, far too chancy for countersong for my tastes because I have a tendency to roll single digits, and my dice are particularly fond of the numbers 1 - 5. In other words, it's possible that my countersong could fail to outpace the sonic effects I intend it to counter. That's simply not acceptable.. In six years of LG play, the number of times I've seen countersong used. Zero. I have seen silence used a few times where you may use countersong. That's it. Maybe your region is different, but I've played in a variety of regions and yet to see a need for it. Ed
_m_ 11-03-06, 08:06 AM	In six years of LG play, the number of times I've seen countersong used. Zero. I have seen silence used a few times where you may use countersong. That's it. Maybe your region is different, but I've played in a variety of regions and yet to see a need for it. Ed ive played for a fairly long time, almost all rpga lgh, and i didnt even know bards HAD countersong its used so little.
Haro 11-03-06, 08:50 AM	I used countersong for the first time last weekend in a playtest...yup, shocked me too. Funny thing was seeing every player at the table (including me) reach for their PHBs to find out what the ability did. Worked a treat though. Joe
Iswald 11-03-06, 10:03 AM	And for that matter... I know it's been discussed before, but I once again spoke to the player whose bard/marshall earns roughly 500 gp per mod due to his Perform checks. Due to metaorg benefits and a +32 base Perform and the option to perform multiple times if he gets high enough DCs (which he always does), that money's putting him WELL ahead of the curve. And THAT is a powerful use of the Motivate Charisma aura. I remember this being discussed before. The max a PC could get is 420 gp (3d6+3 pp * 2) if they rolled 30+ twice, being allowed to spend 1 extra TU. On average, they should earn an extra 270 gp. If they never run out of TUs, then this would be a good use for them. I would never build a character around a reward card. The probability that I'd get the card is far too low and I'm not willing to spend money to purchase one on eBay.
Mommy was an Orc 11-03-06, 11:22 AM	In general when I comes to Marshall auras I think Motivate Charisma is far overrated. But, lets say you really want to be good at the social skills, so you go ahead and take it anyway. Unfortunately I often see that combined with half-elf race and every single feat put towards boosts in diplomacy, usually severely multiclassed in 3/4 BAB classes for various bits that boost to it. That's the problem with it. However, where Motivate Charisma really shines is when you have a lot of skill point requirements(Sublime Chord), yet want to still be good at the Charisma skills. My Bard is good at an extremely wide range of skills despite having to put so many skill points towards Sublime Chord. And as I mentioned, nothing is better than having the entire party aid another. This easily can add +10 to all kinds of Charisma skill checks. My 9th level Bard/Marshal has 5 ranks in Diplomacy. But once he casts Heroism and gets the entire party to Aid Another, he's up to +39. Then he adds usually another +4 or so due to metaorgs and specials from ARs. Throw in a decent lifestyle for another +2, and that's +45. Again, that's with only 5 ranks in Diplomacy...
Mommy was an Orc 11-03-06, 11:32 AM	In six years of LG play, the number of times I've seen countersong used. Zero. I have seen silence used a few times where you may use countersong. That's it. Maybe your region is different, but I've played in a variety of regions and yet to see a need for it. Ed I've used it about 4 times so far and there was one instance where I would have liked to use it and didn't get a chance. The killer aspect of it is that it basically negates a lot of sound/language-based effects that have already hit the party and there's no save or caster level check against it. And if that's the monster's main attack(aka Succubi), they've got a lot of problems if I continue it. I've destroyed a couple of encounters against Succubi, another one against a very weird Bard where many people I talked to had a lot of problems because they lost a party member on the 1st round. A couple of other times, I've thrown it up as a precautionary measure, and it influenced combat. The last one, everyone but the BDF failed a save vs. paralysis. I made the first, but missed the 2nd. What was a near TPK would have been a cake walk had I just gone 1 faster in initiative or made the 2nd save. This is in the context that I could have rolled a 1 at APL 6, and I still would have beat the Succubi's DC...Motivate Charisma is very powerful here.
Lomiat 11-03-06, 11:50 AM	In six years of LG play, the number of times I've seen countersong used. Zero. I have seen silence used a few times where you may use countersong. That's it. Maybe your region is different, but I've played in a variety of regions and yet to see a need for it. Ed Probably a combined matter of the number of bards you've played with, the number of them who were competent, and the number of times you played with them when there was a sonic-based challenge. My bard's 3rd level and would have beaten one encounter that defeated our party, except that he started 100+ feet away from the other party members and couldn't get into range to countersong in time. And then, in a different mod, he managed to successfully countersong a sonic-based monster who was disabling all the fighter-types, allowing one very frightened fighter to get himself together and perform the kiling blow.
Lomiat 11-03-06, 11:52 AM	I remember this being discussed before. The max a PC could get is 420 gp (3d6+3 pp * 2) if they rolled 30+ twice, being allowed to spend 1 extra TU. On average, they should earn an extra 270 gp. If they never run out of TUs, then this would be a good use for them. 1) The PC is part of a metaorg that allows him to gain double reward for Performances. Hence, an average of 270 goes to an average of something like 540. 2) The PC started to run out of TUs, but not by much. The player's got plenty of characters anyway.
Frumpkis 11-03-06, 07:11 PM	In six years of LG play, the number of times I've seen countersong used. Zero. I have seen silence used a few times where you may use countersong. That's it. Maybe your region is different, but I've played in a variety of regions and yet to see a need for it. Ed I play a bard as my primary PC (now 13th level) and I've used countersong about 3-4 times. Just recently (in a Core mod that's still active ;) ), my bard's countersong quite literally saved the entire party, or at the very least prevented a couple of otherwise assured deaths. The wizard in the party made his knowledge check to know what the creature was & what it can do, so my first action was to put up a countersong. I didn't play my bard in Shedding Scales, but his countersong would've come in mighty useful there as well, against the harpy at the end of the mod. Also, countersong is very effective if you're facing an enemy caster who keeps on casting the same spells at your party (namely Suggestion, Command, etc).
JamesMaissen 11-03-06, 11:30 PM	I play a bard as my primary PC (now 13th level) and I've used countersong about 3-4 times. Also, countersong is very effective if you're facing an enemy caster who keeps on casting the same spells at your party (namely Suggestion, Command, etc). Oh when it comes up it's great. But normally when it comes up your perform check is far more than sufficient to work without needing to double count CHA. Likewise how many times would having an extra 5-6 to INIT work in your favor? Now consider which is stronger for the whole group. Again I think motivate CHA is a trap that bard/marshals can fall into as they are only considering what they could do and thusly weigh it comparably with other choices. Meanwhile the motivate CHA is unlikely to be of further benefit for the rest of the table while motivating DEX or another aura would be felt by most if not all of the party. The strength of the marshal class is that it costs basically a dead level for one character while benefiting others. Thus what you directly get from a marshal level is balanced by having the level, but what you impart to others is it's strength. But to each their own that's why this is a great game. -James
Maesto 11-04-06, 12:26 AM	I've taken motivate charisma for my cleric/marshall diplomat. It works well for all of the charisma based skills, which I've got a lot of ranks invested into, but also works wonders for turning. In a few more levels (actually, with a few g's more gold), I'll be hitting +21 on divine spell power turning checks, effectively giving me +4 caster level to seven spells a day. I'm looking forward to twelth level (exemplar), where I'll dump 9 ranks into UMD, +6 from charisma, +6 from aura, +3 from circlet of persuasion, netting a sweet +24 UMD check.
Mommy was an Orc 11-04-06, 01:25 AM	Again I think motivate CHA is a trap that bard/marshals can fall into as they are only considering what they could do and thusly weigh it comparably with other choices. Meanwhile the motivate CHA is unlikely to be of further benefit for the rest of the table while motivating DEX or another aura would be felt by most if not all of the party. Motivate Charisma has some amazing benefits to the party. They're just not necessarily of use in every combat or every table. The trap isn't Motivate Charisma, the trap is assuming that you still need to max out Diplomacy, Bluff, and/or Gather Information. Once you can hit +30 in any of them, you don't really need a higher score. There's the occasional adventure where you might want it, but you don't usually need it. But the benefits: +43 skill points from 1 level of Marshal - 4+1(human)+3(skill focus diplomacy)+7(Cha Mod)*5(Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, UMD, Perform) = 43 skill points. That's not including the other less useful Charisma skills such as Disguise, Handle Animal, etc...spend those 'saved' skill points on your sublime chord prereqs and on other things you want. Song of Arcane Power(Sublime Chord 2) is based on Perform. Auto-adding +4 caster levels at 12th means your Greater Dispel Magic is caster level 15th at APL 12. That's big. Fascinate. You fascinate your party members, then use Suggestion on them that they decide what they want to do if mentally controlled by someone else, regardless of what the mental controller wants. That makes it Cha Mod vs Cha Mod. Countersong. When you're tossing off high enough values to auto-disrupt effects, that's when it is really useful - I've fought a couple of Succubi with my Bard, and in both cases, I could auto-roll their quite high DCs. Group Aid Another - consistently getting +8-+10 as opposed to +4 to +6 is quite useful. It essentially amounts to an additional +4 skill points on 3 very common, important charisma skills(Diplomacy, Gather Info, and Intimidate). That bumps up the skill points gained from the 1 level of Marshal to about +55 skill points. Many people would be happy with just +55 skill points. Turning Checks - they add to Turning checks - making those Clerics doing Divine Spellpower get a lot closer to auto-adding in the max. UMD - one of the best parts - you get to the point where automaking UMD checks happens consistently early on. Right now, I can autoread I think 5th level scrolls at 9th level from any class. Those benefits are insanely useful. They might not influence combat as +7 to Initiative modifier might, but when your Bard is able to be good at face, buffer, and eventually spellcasting without really sacrificing, it really does help the party just as much as the Dex mod one. And as it isn't as common as the Dex one, you're much less likely to only have one aura working.
JamesMaissen 11-04-06, 05:04 PM	The trap isn't Motivate Charisma, the trap is assuming that you still need to max out Diplomacy, Bluff, and/or Gather Information. Once you can hit +30 in any of them, you don't really need a higher score. There's the occasional adventure where you might want it, but you don't usually need it. I guess I just see things from the other side of that.. I'd rather take the level and give the party a benefit than save some skill points. Most of the other things that you are listing are similar things that you are more than pushing over the top.. it's hitting a stage of lack of returns. I'd rather pick an aura that works across the board. Rather than letting the party autoaid a gather information that I'm already capable of hitting out of the ballpark, why not between the aura and an Iron Silence spell let the entire party hide and move silently? Anyway, I think that while motivate charisma can do some nice things, it's mainly for the marshal themself. It's also in areas that the marshal is very able of achieving high scores in without it. I do think for these reasons that Motivate Charisma is a trap. Most of the skills it boosts you normally only need one person to be attempting rather than the entire party. Also as stated above (even by you) there are diminishing returns for out of the ballpark results which serve to make it only a short term boon for the individual rather than a scalable one. These are the key strengths to a Marshal's minor aura. -James
Mommy was an Orc 11-04-06, 05:44 PM	I'd rather pick an aura that works across the board. Rather than letting the party autoaid a gather information that I'm already capable of hitting out of the ballpark, why not between the aura and an Iron Silence spell let the entire party hide and move silently? That's the problem for the Motivate Dexterity aura person right there - the reason you're capable of hitting Gather Information out of the park is that you spent skill ranks on it. I didn't. I spent them elsewhere, things that the Motivate Dexterity person doesn't have if he's going for Sublime Chord like I am.
JamesMaissen 11-05-06, 01:25 AM	That's the problem for the Motivate Dexterity aura person right there - the reason you're capable of hitting Gather Information out of the park is that you spent skill ranks on it. I didn't. I spent them elsewhere, things that the Motivate Dexterity person doesn't have if he's going for Sublime Chord like I am. I guess I just see it as a pricy way to pay for extra skill points. And again it's the point about it only really benefiting one person rather than everyone in the group. But this is just going back and forth, so I leave you with that, James
Mommy was an Orc 11-05-06, 12:20 PM	I guess I just see it as a pricy way to pay for extra skill points. And again it's the point about it only really benefiting one person rather than everyone in the group. Having an extra 46 skill points at a cost of 1 level is a trade most skill monkeys should make without it being 'pricy'. Having an extra 46 skill points is beneficial to the group, especially when your face character is spending 50 skill points on Perform, Sublime Chord prereqs, and Knowledge(History). That basically turns a Bard character into a 2+Int Mod skill class. A human with a 14 Int then has 5 skill points per level - Diplomacy, Concentration, Gather Information, Bluff, Knowledge Skills, Use Magic Device, Sense Motive and Speak Language are all skills that a Bard should want. A 2nd Perform skill with 3 points in it isn't a bad thing. All the little skills that you should spend 1 point on just to have, such as Tumble or obscure Knowledge skills. Where is your Motivate Dexterity Bard sacrificing on your skills? My Bard has everything on that list except Concentration - Bardsong doesn't involve concentration checks and swift spells don't draw AoOs - once I cast Swift Invisibility, neither will my main spells. I even have a +21 Intimidate on top of it to go with my Daunting Presence - if someone fails a save against my Daunting Presence, I can basically auto-panic them the next round. Not to mention, any cork who put a bunch of points into Intimidate can also. I also don't value Motivate Dexterity as highly as you do - it is costly to make it work in a way that doesn't involve you making noise(and therefore negating surprise). That Iron Silence thing that you mentioned isn't that practical, even with Motivate Dex and when you don't have to make noise - a +6 Hide/Move Silently score at 8th level is roughly as good as you're going to get with the Full Plate guy. And my Bard has a mostly better version of it with a party Rogue and Sculpt Sound. At 12th, I'll be able to silence 15 things for 30 hours. That's 6 suits of armor and 9 other things.
paigeoliver 11-05-06, 08:14 PM	RE: Negating surprise. I won't actually get into the argument about weather or not a Marshal has to run around screaming all the time. Strictly reading the wording simply says that activating it is noisy and he must be ABLE to communicate with his allies in order to keep it going. Anyway, I have only ever run into one DM who said marshal auras negated surprise, but that same DM was also one of those people who had 3.0 rules and 3.5 rules completely mixed up in his head, but was a rules lawyer about that non-existent version he was running, so needless to say I didn't exactly respect his judgments. With that out of the way. I roll initiative a good 3 times per module. I don't know how many surprise rounds you have been getting, but mine tend to come about once every 10 modules, or maybe less than that.
Mommy was an Orc 11-05-06, 09:40 PM	RE: Negating surprise. I won't actually get into the argument about weather or not a Marshal has to run around screaming all the time. Strictly reading the wording simply says that activating it is noisy and he must be ABLE to communicate with his allies in order to keep it going. What version of Marshal are you playing...there's no requirement for the activation to be noisy, just order, give direction, etc.., you're simply under the following restriction after that: Unless otherwise noted, a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet(including himself) who can hear the marshal...A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, unconcious, stunned, paralyzed, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies. The straightforward reading of this is that your allies must hear and understand something the Marshal is saying at all times. It doesn't have to be specifically related to the initial activation, but the Marshal needs to be saying something. That makes it difficult to be using Hide/Move Silently in the way that James is suggesting unless you make sure only your party can hear you. But that's expensive to maintain indefinitely. A disadvantage that Sculpt Sound does not have.
JamesMaissen 11-06-06, 10:31 AM	The straightforward reading of this is that your allies must hear and understand something the Marshal is saying at all times. It doesn't have to be specifically related to the initial activation, but the Marshal needs to be saying something. Umm another place we disagree. The Marshal is not constantly talking, else there would be problems with spell completion, full round casting and even perhaps maintaining a bard song. This is more of a place people pathologically pick on Marshal auras about because they dislike the ability in the first place. The marshal does have to be able to speak to his allies to affect them, but doesn't mean that he/she is constantly doing so. Now the sculpt sound is nice as it's more versitile than Iron silence. Are you casting this on armors or entire characters? Personally I just was going with Iron Silence as the party cleric could be casting it. But I do love Bards having some of those wonderful Bard only spells that are out there. But yeah we do see things differently. You're using a level of Marshal to make up for your bard's character deficiencies, and I'm thinking on what it could do to augment the party he's travelling in. To each their own. -James
Iswald 11-06-06, 10:56 AM	Umm another place we disagree. The Marshal is not constantly talking, else there would be problems with spell completion, full round casting and even perhaps maintaining a bard song. There are problems with multiple round casting. There are problems with maintaining a bard song. Why do you think there wouldn't be? The others you can just alter when you provide your guidance. Ie, free action to cajole your allies, use your wand or scroll as a standard action, move, cast a swift spell. No problem. Direct your companions, start your bard song, move. Next round, maintain your bard song, attack, move, encourage your allies, break your bardsong. Calm your friends, start casting restoration. Continue casting restoration, stop your aura or casting, since you can't do both.
RedKnightofKet 11-06-06, 11:05 AM	There are problems with multiple round casting. There are problems with maintaining a bard song. Why do you think there wouldn't be? The others you can just alter when you provide your guidance. Ie, free action to cajole your allies, use your wand or scroll as a standard action, move, cast a swift spell. No problem. Direct your companions, start your bard song, move. Next round, maintain your bard song, attack, move, encourage your allies, break your bardsong. Calm your friends, start casting restoration. Continue casting restoration, stop your aura or casting, since you can't do both. I disagree, at least as far as breaking the bard song - why can't the song be about motivating your allies? seems to that you can do both at the same time. There;s nothing saying that the "able to talk to your allies" bit takes any form of action - or interrupts anything else.
Iswald 11-06-06, 11:15 AM	I disagree, at least as far as breaking the bard song - why can't the song be about motivating your allies? seems to that you can do both at the same time. There;s nothing saying that the "able to talk to your allies" bit takes any form of action - or interrupts anything else. Maintaining your aura is a free action, but it's still an action that would disrupt your song. Why can't you just incorporate the command word for a wand into your song? It's the same situation, really.
RedKnightofKet 11-06-06, 11:51 AM	Maintaining your aura is a free action, but it's still an action that would disrupt your song. Why can't you just incorporate the command word for a wand into your song? It's the same situation, really. Wrong. "The aura remains in effect until the Marshall uses a free action to dismiss it." That may be cheese, but that's how it is written. In game terms, I would say that the Marshall weaves that effect into the bard song. And wands are specifically mentioned in the bard song description as breaking up a song. Otherwise, I would have allowed a command word to be incorporated into the song - but PHB says otherwise.
Mommy was an Orc 11-06-06, 02:51 PM	Umm another place we disagree. The Marshal is not constantly talking, else there would be problems with spell completion, full round casting and even perhaps maintaining a bard song. This is more of a place people pathologically pick on Marshal auras about because they dislike the ability in the first place. I play a Bard/Marshal and that's how I read it. It doesn't mean he's constantly talking(as that's mechanically impossible in any case due to the structure of rounds), it means during any given round, he must say something as a free action to maintain the aura. I don't view it as interfering with Bard song in any case - just make the saying something part of the song. Now the sculpt sound is nice as it's more versitile than Iron silence. Are you casting this on armors or entire characters? Personally I just was going with Iron Silence as the party cleric could be casting it. But I do love Bards having some of those wonderful Bard only spells that are out there. Generally armor - the nice thing about Sculpt Sound is that things that hit the armor won't make noise, even if they themselves are not silenced. It depends if the DM is particularly nice on the reading of Sculpt Sound. I'm finally at the level where I can expect it to last the entire day if I cast it at the beginning and extend it with a Rod. But yeah we do see things differently. You're using a level of Marshal to make up for your bard's character deficiencies, and I'm thinking on what it could do to augment the party he's travelling in. To each their own. -James It really isn't that different - I just view the Charisma skills as more valuable than you do and you value the act of going first as more important than I do. It isn't that you don't value charisma skills or that I don't value going first as important - I just don't think sacrificing the charisma skills for sublime chord is worth going first. There are definitely situations where I would have very much valued kicking everyone's initiative up by +5...
paigeoliver 11-06-06, 06:08 PM	I actually tend to rule more that the marshal doesn't HAVE to be saying anything once the aura is up, he just needs the ability to speak if the situation requires it. An unchanging situation doesn't require any communication. The classic example of sneaking down the hallway. The marshal instructs all his allies in the importance of silence and such (putting up his dex aura) and then they sneak down the hallway. The actual act of sneaking down the hallway wouldn't require him to speak at all. He could speak if he wanted to, and his allies could certainly hear him if he did, but he ISN'T talking because they are sneaking down a hallway. In situations where nothing is changing the marshal has very little to say. Anybody who has ever been in the military should know that a good drill instructor can keep his aura up without saying a darn thing.
_m_ 11-06-06, 07:22 PM	Anybody who has ever been in the military should know that a good drill instructor can keep his aura up without saying a darn thing. tis a good point. see also: good sports captains. Some people just radiate competence.
Iswald 11-08-06, 09:43 AM	Wrong. "The aura remains in effect until the Marshall uses a free action to dismiss it." That may be cheese, but that's how it is written. In game terms, I would say that the Marshall weaves that effect into the bard song. And wands are specifically mentioned in the bard song description as breaking up a song. Otherwise, I would have allowed a command word to be incorporated into the song - but PHB says otherwise. Wrong? "A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, blah, blah, blah, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies." "...a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal." An ally must be able to understand the marshal's language. There's nothing in here about how the marshal can just stand around looking pretty or impressive to grant their bonus to their allies. Even in the flavor text, it's the marshal's 'way with words' that helps his companions. With regards to game mechanics, it seems clear to me that the bard can't use their voice for anything else if it's maintaining their bard song. If you want to do something else at the same time, you need some kind of special ability, whether it's combine songs from warchanter, using masterwork instruments to cast spells (though this doesn't help if singing), or some other method which marshal doesn't appear to grant.
Mommy was an Orc 11-08-06, 10:06 AM	With regards to game mechanics, it seems clear to me that the bard can't use their voice for anything else if it's maintaining their bard song. If you want to do something else at the same time, you need some kind of special ability, whether it's combine songs from warchanter, using masterwork instruments to cast spells (though this doesn't help if singing), or some other method which marshal doesn't appear to grant. Mechanically, the limit is that the person must be able to hear and understand the bard. If the bard is singing a war song about how some great heroes of the past used a particular set of tactics to defeat an enemy, I don't see how that doesn't solve both the spirit and mechanics of both bardsong and the marshal aura - you are telling them what to do while inspiring them through bardsong. You can be heard and understood, and presumably, someone with maxxed out Oratory or Act is going to be amazing at improvising a story to fit the situation. In any case, views like yours, that is one of the reasons my Bard has 3 ranks in Perform(Stringed) to go with his maxxed Perform(Act).
RedKnightofKet 11-08-06, 11:08 AM	Wrong? "A marshal's aura is dismissed if he is dazed, blah, blah, blah, or otherwise unable to be heard or understood by his allies." "...a marshal's aura affects all allies within 60 feet (including himself) who can hear the marshal." An ally must be able to understand the marshal's language. There's nothing in here about how the marshal can just stand around looking pretty or impressive to grant their bonus to their allies. Even in the flavor text, it's the marshal's 'way with words' that helps his companions. With regards to game mechanics, it seems clear to me that the bard can't use their voice for anything else if it's maintaining their bard song. If you want to do something else at the same time, you need some kind of special ability, whether it's combine songs from warchanter, using masterwork instruments to cast spells (though this doesn't help if singing), or some other method which marshal doesn't appear to grant. Actually, there is. Yes, if a marshall is dazed, stunned, etc his aura ends, but otherwise he uses a free action to dismiss it. Quid Pro Quo, if it takes a free action to dismiss it, by default it is still up if he doesn't dismiss it, or the other conditions take place. As others have mentioned, a marshall is giving directions - he isn't constantly talking - I would have left quite a few marshalls behind if that were the case. :mrt: Basically, a marshall is periodically giving out the orders, hence keeping up his aura. He can take the time to start a bard song, etc, and wrap that into the other. The bard song, however, specifically mentions that it is broken up if the bard attempts to sing, activate a magic item, etc. There is nothing in the text (and there is no errata) for the marshall.
_m_ 11-08-06, 05:05 PM	does baric music have to be sung? also, i dont know how you are with music, but ive heard a bloody lot of songs... namely... every song ive ever heard... that have gaps between lyrics. you could quite easily be singing along, then when you get to the 4 second's of music between verse and chorus, tell everyone to 'continue being dexterous'. see!
Vamroc 11-17-06, 10:34 PM	It doesn't matter how high your diplomacy skill is if you don't have a royal title such as being a lord. You might as well be a used camel salesman on the Bright Sands. Because status is everything and if you don't have it in Greyhawk well then go park my camel LOL.
Biota 11-22-06, 07:36 PM	And for that matter... I know it's been discussed before, but I once again spoke to the player whose bard/marshall earns roughly 500 gp per mod due to his Perform checks. Due to metaorg benefits and a +32 base Perform and the option to perform multiple times if he gets high enough DCs (which he always does), that money's putting him WELL ahead of the curve. And THAT is a powerful use of the Motivate Charisma aura. From the Benefits from Nonadventuring Activity section of the LGCS: ... Using these skills or professions during an adventure is allowed but does not increase the maximum gold earned cap for the APL played at. So correct me if I'm wrong here, but from this it seems like you can only benefit from earning cash after a mod if you got less than max gold for your APL. Not that it isn't great to be able to make up when you earned less than max gold, but you can't get ahead of the gold curve. You can only get closer to that curve by spending TUs performing. Biota
_m_ 11-22-06, 07:48 PM	From the Benefits from Nonadventuring Activity section of the LGCS: ... Using these skills or professions during an adventure is allowed but does not increase the maximum gold earned cap for the APL played at. So correct me if I'm wrong here, but from this it seems like you can only benefit from earning cash after a mod if you got less than max gold for your APL. Not that it isn't great to be able to make up when you earned less than max gold, but you can't get ahead of the gold curve. You can only get closer to that curve by spending TUs performing. Biota no, im think that means that if you perform during the adventure itself, then you cant raise the cap past max. if you spend TU's afterwards on making money, thats different.
clannagh 11-22-06, 11:41 PM	m is correct bards can do two different things: 1. perform during the mod at no cost in time units. This provides a buffer for situations such as diplomacising an encounter and having no bodies to loot, missing an encounter entirely or (heaven forbid) using the consumables in the loot like potions instead of hoarding them. You still cannot exceed the cap here. 2. if its a regional mod you can choose to spend separate extra time units AFTER the mod and earn separate extra gold on the AR that is separate from the capped gold. This DOES cost time units but is over and above any gold earned in the mod and is not effected by the cap.